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Andy Field
FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 10:06:22 am

Can't say I was a fan of FCP X....until I loaded it on the Maserati of Macs - the new fully loaded 16gig Ram Macbook Pro Retina laptop. It's now an entirely different program - no crashes - crazy fast.....it appears this program needs lots of ram and a very fast machine. Impressive. Now if Apple just gets those tracks back and a real time mixer -- they'd have a few more converts


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Mark Dobson
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 10:31:59 am

[Andy Field] "It's now an entirely different program - no crashes - crazy fast.....it appears this program needs lots of ram and a very fast machine."

Hi Andy - so which bit is faster?

The biggest holdup I have is with rendering out stabilised and treated shots or complex compound builds.

But it might be that with the MBP Retina that this is not necessary.

I would be interested to find out what you plan to connect to your new laptop.

I'm planning to get one soon and have worked out that I'll need to spend almost as much as the MBP to really take advantage of Thunderbolt and external SSD drives.

But I suppose the biggest question is what is like to work with a a high resolution 15" screen?


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Andy Field
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 10:53:06 am

What's faster? - everything - applying effects - program loads in an eye blink - just exported a short 30 second movie as a test - took a few seconds - effects preview super fast -- i kept giving up on the program on a late 2010/11 model Macbook Pro as it was slow, clunky - just decided to stop randomly and crashed so much I wouldn't trust it with a paying project --

Still hate no tracks and no real time keyframeable mixer -- just can't go back to rubber banding audio when every other NLE has this....double clicking nested audio to make adjustments - maddening - if Apple lives up to it's promise, I'll give it another try.

in the mean time it does things that I'll use for effects to plug into other NLEs (FCP 7 PP 6...Avid)....that are quicker and easier than other options.

Connections - still waiting for my thunderbolt to firewire adapter to connect old legacy drives....(Apple's selling them now on their web site)

Will buy a thunderbolt drive and see what the speeds are -- but over all - if you've got the dough, this new MBP Retina display -fully loaded is the Fastest machine I've ever used.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Andy Field
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 11:01:20 am

Sorry didn't answer your original question - What's it like to work with hi res screen. Very Nice - you can play with size and real estate in the Monitors control panel - if you leave it alone it optimizes for the Retina Display but you can make the screen crazy big (an everything in it much smaller - but still sharp if the program is optimized for this ..and FCPX seems to be) very nice display. I've read if you use FCP 7 on this it doesn't play well with changing resolution while it's loaded ..in fact crashes) so it may be best to change resolution before you open FCP 7 -- haven't tried many others yet

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Gary Huff
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 12:57:59 pm

[Andy Field] " What's faster? - everything - applying effects - program loads in an eye blink"

Did you have an SSD in your 2011 MacBook?


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Andy Field
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 2:49:08 pm

No ssd in old computer


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Bret Williams
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 4:34:41 pm

It's all about Sandy Bridge. They even mention it on the X website. Grand central Dispatch harnesses power of Sandy Bridge... That's why X on recent imacs and MbookPros is outperforming Mac Pros.


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alban egger
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 2:48:16 pm

[Andy Field] "It's now an entirely different program - no crashes - crazy fast.....it appears this program needs lots of ram and a very fast machine. Impressive."

Hmm...haven´t many here been saying this for months? 16GB RAM and a GPU from 2010 and younger is the minimum. Then FCPX works as you expect it to.

I don´t think you need the Retina, my 2011 MBP and even my MacPro from 2009 work fine with it (although the MacPro misses Thunderbolt).



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Andy Field
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 4:09:16 pm

Yes. But I had the latest CPU and max ram in last MacBook. Pp and avid were zippy. Fcpx slow and buggy. On this machine not the case


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alban egger
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 4:20:30 pm

What was your "last Macbook"? It worked on my 2008 MBP without crashes and wasn´t sluggish since 10.0.1, but got sluggish with projects with 1500+ clips. It worked fine with a few hundred clips, but was constantly on the 4GB RAM spike.

In my new MBP I got 16GB during a project and suddenly everything went much faster even in rendering; also in Motion and the rest of my software. So FCPX is not the only 64-bit app that is hungry.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 8:54:01 pm

I finally got to play to with FCPX on Retina display at the Apple store and had the same "blown away" experience. Even with the base model it was just fantastic - although the project was Pro RES Proxy it still was blazing fast adding fx and color timing and looks clearer and better than any monitor I've ever used.

I have a fast all SSD Win 7 workstation and I thought that was fast - the built-in memory on the MccBook is just crazy fast. I'm waiting for the extra cash for the mid to higher end model. I can see editing a feature film using proxy files with just the on-board memory - awesome. Who knew the day would come when it was faster to use the system drive than an external raid?

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Jon Barr
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 9:59:33 pm

The internal SSD is indeed super fast. The following BlackMagic Speed Tests done on a top of the line Retina MBP:

Internal drive speed test:

Write: 433.8 MB/s
Read: 447.0 MB/s

Promise Pegasus Raid-5 Via Thunderbolt:

Write: 603.1 MB/s
Read: 541.2 MB/s

Looking forward to the speeds we'll be getting with an all SSD Raid connected via Thunderbolt.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 4:35:42 pm

I think the best upgrade you can buy in a computer is choosing an SSD for a start up disk.

Jerry


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 5:53:29 pm

That's true from my experience. Any i7 machine is fast enough to make you feel good. It's smooth on the 12 core though too. Graphic cards matter, as does having enough RAM. 7 topped out at less than 3 gigs. X will use all ya can throw at it. For really long form you'd probably want 32gigs at least. it's another reason it's fast, it uses all the fastest memory in anybody's system...

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Craig Alan
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 8:01:35 pm

Jerry,

Just wondering how FCP X uses all that ram. How does increasing the amount of media (long form) or is it the complexity of the media (the number of "tracks" or rendering say color correction) have to do with ram usage? I'm not questioning the reality - just want to understand the flow. Yesterday, it seemed like ram had a law of diminishing returns -- money was better spent on larger/faster raids.

If Apple designed their new flagship app to utilize as much ram as possible then the development of the next mac pro being on the back burner seems out of sync.

What exactly gets faster with more ram? And does this apply to all incremental upgrades? For example if an Imac station has 16 gigs of ram will moving up to 24 make a difference? I do not have a particular upgrade in mind just want to understand the cost/speed ratio.

MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170, Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 6:36:39 pm

When you opened a sequence in FCP 7, FCP would load information about where each clip resided on a hard drive and more, and most of this information goes into RAM so it's accessed incredibly fast. However the code base used in FCP 1-7 (originally carbon then carbonized for OS X) couldn't access more than about 2.7 gigs of RAM total. So when you load a huge feature length zillion edit sequence, it may have to disk cache to even load the sequence in the timeline window. Depends... the simpler the sequence, and fewer the edits the less RAM it needs... The spinning wheel would run for a while during this disk caching routine, then the sequence would load as much as it could around the playhead and work. But ya waited... You can see the amount of RAM any program uses in the Activity Monitor on your Mac. Open it and monitor what happens when you do any given task, judge you're next upgrades that way.

Same thing in FCP X. (loading a bunch of info into RAM loading sequences, and loading clip info) However the ceiling the program will use is much higher. Tons and tons, more than the machine can support before disk caching takes place. RAM couldn't be accessed like this before. So buying more for just FCP to run OK didn't make sense.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 4, 2012 at 9:59:33 pm

[Andy Field] "Now if Apple just gets those tracks back and a real time mixer -- they'd have a few more converts
"


Andy,

Watch out dude.

First you start losing resistance.

Then you start using X every day.

Then you habituate how it works rather than demanding that it work like you used to work.

Then you look up one day and find yourself thinking ... "huh - I don't really spend all that much time anymore thinking in "tracks" - what was I so hung up on?"

Check back with us in 6 months and let us know how much you miss the way you used to edit.

I'll wager not very much.

Have a great time.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 1:58:57 pm

After using FCP X for a few months, whenever I have to go back to 7, it feels a ton slower. Because It IS slower. X is the fastest NLE in the world, period. If you can use it for the task at hand you'll do yourself a favor.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 2:00:48 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "X is the fastest NLE in the world, period"

They'll be a few on here that dispute that, I'm not one of them

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 2:11:36 pm

Ther are jobs it's not right for no doubt. But with each update those jobs get fewer. For a first release its very exciting.

I don't miss tracks at all. Everything they accomplished X can accomplish.

Jerry


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Gary Huff
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 2:17:10 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] " After using FCP X for a few months, whenever I have to go back to 7, it feels a ton slower. Because It IS slower. X is the fastest NLE in the world, period. If you can use it for the task at hand you'll do yourself a favor."

That's quite an assertion, but you forgot to include the link to your evidence for that.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 3:38:11 pm

Pretty simple.

1. You can edit before you've complete the import process.

2. You don't wait on a render to see a preview.

3. The error messages like '"clip collisions" are non existant.

4. No transcoding of anything before you start editing. DSLRs anyone?

5. Mixing codecs never slows performance of playback.

6. Smart collections make organization nearly automatic.

7. Renders, if you have to wait on them at all, are not quite twice as fast. 64 bit app...

8. Auditions make the trial and error workflows about 5 times faster.

9. Multicam setup is much faster. Syncing clips is nigh on instant even with a camera which starts and stops all the time.

10. the automatons of the clip analysis save a ton of time, and are far more accurate than the few that existed before.

11. I see the same student learn both X & 7. To a tee, every single one reports FCP X is easier to learn, and gets the job done faster. These are people with no preconceptions at all. I've taught about 150 of these people now they all say it's easier to do the same edit. This is because it's fewer keystrokes to accomplish the same result. And this is why a lot of pros are scared to death of it. If any one can use it, they believe their jobs are at risk.

Need more?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 4:47:31 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "1. You can edit before you've complete the import process."

With Adobe CS6, you don't need to convert the footage. Import and edit, no Conversion. So it's a tie there (except no conversion)

[Jerry Hofmann] "2. You don't wait on a render to see a preview."

Same with Adobe CS6.

[Jerry Hofmann] "3. The error messages like '"clip collisions" are non existant."

CS6 too

[Jerry Hofmann] "4. No transcoding of anything before you start editing. DSLRs anyone?"

CS6 again also does this

[Jerry Hofmann] "
5. Mixing codecs never slows performance of playback."


CS6 does this too...

[Jerry Hofmann] "6. Smart collections make organization nearly automatic."

"nearly?" Don't you have to label things, take the time to do what it takes to put them into Smart Collections? That's still manually organizing things.

[Jerry Hofmann] "7. Renders, if you have to wait on them at all, are not quite twice as fast. 64 bit app..."

CS6 again does this as well

[Jerry Hofmann] "8. Auditions make the trial and error workflows about 5 times faster."

OK, got me there.

[Jerry Hofmann] "9. Multicam setup is much faster. Syncing clips is nigh on instant even with a camera which starts and stops all the time."

And I admit that the multicam feature in FCX is the best in the world. Saves time when you stupidly (or producers stupidly) shoot multiple cameras and multiple frame rates.

[Jerry Hofmann] "10. the automatons of the clip analysis save a ton of time, and are far more accurate than the few that existed before."

What do they analyze, and what does that get you? Metadata? How does what it does in that analyze that saves time?

[Jerry Hofmann] "11. I see the same student learn both X & 7. To a tee, every single one reports FCP X is easier to learn, and gets the job done faster. These are people with no preconceptions at all. I've taught about 150 of these people now they all say it's easier to do the same edit. This is because it's fewer keystrokes to accomplish the same result. And this is why a lot of pros are scared to death of it. If any one can use it, they believe their jobs are at risk."

OK...now give them footage and a show spec and have them cut a show, deliver the footage to a colorist using Resolve, an AAF/OMF to an audio mixer (with tracks organized in a way that makes it easier on them, not mixed dialog and SFX and music...audio mixers DO work in tracks), and then output to digital file or tape that matches the spec the network is asking for. I bet the learning curve is a bit more. For basic editing, I'm sure they can pick that up. But editing is a lot more than arranging the footage to tell a story. There's a lot of tech that needs to be done. I guess that's in the realm of the assistants most of the time, but the editors should know that in order to make it easier on everyone involved in the process.

But now I'm sounding like the old man telling the young farts to "get off my lawn!"

There are more fields in editing than my field. But I feel absolutely fear of people learning and using FCX, as that app is seeing little to no use in what we do. It doesn't fit in well with what we do. LEVERAGE nonwithstanding....

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 6:51:48 pm

LOL!!! I was hoping you'd respond.

The automation I speak of is the auto color, fix audio problem stuff get rid of unwanted bkg sound and more... it's real and it works most of the time. Facial recognition is right around the corner with it I'll wager. Imagine logging a feature where you tag a CU as a certain character, a Medium and a wide... Then as X analyses this for every single clip, it tags the shots of this character FOR YOU... it's already doing CU's , Singles, two shots, and group shots. The facial recognition Apple already owns and uses in the stills softwares. Ya have to hold back something for the next generation of software or you go broke.

Premiere has tracks. So yesterday. (sorry, couldn't resist). I love the magnetic timeline. it's a whole leap ahead once you understand it. Why shouldn't audio be connected always to video? It should! Track's only real reason for existence is the ability to be able to export them separately. X's "roles" does the same thing, and then some.

Yes, my dearest friend, you do sound like an old fart telling the youngin's to get off the lawn. I love you anyway.

When Avid hit the scene in Hollywood about 23 years ago, All the editors working on TV and Film said that flatbed and Moviolas were not only faster, but the only way to edit. I know. I was there. I owned a Composer 1 in April of 1989. By '97 or so, you'd think the world got turned upside down in LA. Flatbeds were dying daily, telecine became a seriously great business... Because the younin's didn't leave the yard... it was the new editors on the scene that got it, and got the work. I think there might be 2 flatbeds in LA today or so... for those are afraid of leaks and bootlegs.

You've preconceived notions about X it I believe. It's not the same software most pro's dismissed a year ago. I'll be the first one to say it's not for every job. and have said so in this thread more than one time... however if it is OK for what you need to deliver, it's a done deal man. What it does do that FCP 7 did, it does better. It doesn't do things that some people need today, but most users simply don't.

Apple has sold more copies of X than it did of Studio 3. This is more than 3 million copies. This says something. This says that there are adoptions going on all over the place, and not being talked much about. It's not about what the 10,000 need. It's about what the 4 million need. I really don't think there's more than about 250,000 - 500,000 full time professional editors in the world. The rest of those 2.7 million people? They use it, most often professionally. But not full time. No matter what the platform, this is the entire market world wide I'm guessing. There are users in our industry that aren't full time editors all over the place... why? it's easy to learn, easy to rough cut with, and that's all they NEED for example. Or simply viewing on the set, among probably a lot more folks of this type.

That said, I recon there are 90% of the "editor full time" professionals out there that this software will accomplish the delivery of their work. Don't forget that 90% of the money spent on moving pictures in any format is not spent on entertainment. You know this is true, we see it in the booths we work in at NAB.

Let's get really real here. If you are making your living doing this, why on earth wouldn't you run Adobe, Avid, Apple, all on the same machine, and simply pick the the NLE that will speed you up the most on the particular task at hand. Heck, this can be done for less than $10,000. Hopefully, the best NLE for any given task will NOT be the same NLE from year to year... this means they are all innovating... right?

That Avid I brought up earlier only produced a CMX list to take to an online room that cost over a million bucks to build. I've spent many a day spending $10,000 in those rooms in those years for a single set of commercials. That Avid cost $64,000 and if you were out of sync, you couldn't tell because the picture quality in a medium/long shot wasn't good enough to tell.. LOL...

So it's pretty silly to get too out of sorts with any of this area of discussion isn't it?

Any way you look at it, if you can produce a finished show in faster time, you'll end up making more money in the long haul. From any pro's perspective whither you edit features or weddings or anything else for wages... right?

I'm not familiar with Adobe's latest stuff, but it too sounds nice. But tracks? NAH no need, no want anymore. Magnetic timeline is much much faster to edit with. MUCH... learn it, come take one of my classes! I'll give you a discount, and put you up. I'll even trade even if you train me on Adobe! Nice room I have just waiting for you!


Jerry


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Jerry Hofmann
PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 7:18:18 pm

We're messin' with the tread's intent, but one last thing about tracks vs roles.

You can export a set of audio files any way you want to with X. It just doesn't use tracks to do this, but the end result given to a mixer can be the same if you know how to do it, and that isn't hard to learn either... OMF will be there before you know it, but there's a work around for that too of course now. (third party software).

I understand where you're coming from, but still believe that FCP X is faster than anybody's NLE. It's the only NLE that is MAC OS Native code. I'm a Mac, I'll likely never be a PC. So there ya have it. The future of the platform is going to blow your mind... and it's development time will be considerably faster than any body else's because Apple writes natively for only one OS, which we all agree is currently the better OS for all round computing.

Here's a read: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/344/12947

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Shawn Miller
Re: PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 8:08:48 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "Apple writes natively for only one OS, which we all agree is currently the better OS for all round computing."

I wasn't there when the vote was taken, so I'll have to disagree here. All operating systems have their strengths and weaknesses, but for "all around computing", my opinion is that Linux is probably the most flexible. That's why it can run programs on everything from your cable set top box, to the New York Stock Exchange, to the Mars rover. No need for OS chauvinism, IMO. :-)

Shawn



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 2:11:54 pm

I'll be more explicit. I'm a Mac not a PC (most users have to choose between these two) Meant no offense to OS.


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Gary Huff
Re: PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 3:36:36 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] " I'll be more explicit. I'm a Mac not a PC (most users have to choose between these two) Meant no offense to OS."

No! Seriously?!? :-]


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Chris Harlan
Re: PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 1:20:12 am

[Shawn Miller] "[Jerry Hofmann] "Apple writes natively for only one OS, which we all agree is currently the better OS for all round computing."

I wasn't there when the vote was taken, so I'll have to disagree here."


Dang. I missed it too. Could it be that the Mac guys are only sending out ballots to like, you know, other Mac guys?


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Michael Gissing
Re: PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 1:49:05 am

The best OS is the one that is robust, secure, easy to operate and has lots of nice software written for it. So for all round OS computing goodness my vote is Linux, with Apple and Win 7 photo for the silver medal depending on how highly you value choice and economics over simplicity and relative security.


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Bill Davis
Re: PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 5:47:35 am

[Chris Harlan] "[Shawn Miller] "[Jerry Hofmann] "Apple writes natively for only one OS, which we all agree is currently the better OS for all round computing."

I wasn't there when the vote was taken, so I'll have to disagree here."

Dang. I missed it too. Could it be that the Mac guys are only sending out ballots to like, you know, other Mac guys?
"


Or maybe they just asked the NASA scientists?

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/08/06/nasas_control_room_flooded_wi...

I actually wondered if these guys were running Linux until I saw the last photo.

Not definitive and not video-related, but I've got to figure these guys wouldn't want to run sub-standard hardware and this represents pretty impressive PR for Apple none the less.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 7:41:17 am

[Bill Davis] "I actually wondered if these guys were running Linux until I saw the last photo.
"


Why would they be running Linux? The X11 support inside OS X is superb, which is why many scientists gravitate to it. They run their specialized Unix programs through the X Window. Sadly, X11--which for several years was standard with OS X --is a casualty in Mountain Lion, so I'm betting none of them are on Mountain Lion right now. There's XQuartz support, though, with libraries and such, so hopefully X11 will continue.

[Bill Davis] " I've got to figure these guys wouldn't want to run sub-standard hardware and this represents pretty impressive PR for Apple none the less."

No one has said anything about "sub-standard hardware." Again, straw argument. For that matter, no one has said anything about OS X being bad. I think if you understood what these folks were doing, in terms of the specialized Unix programs they are running, and X Window's ability to do that well, you'd understand why most of them have Macs.


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Shawn Miller
Re: PS: Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 3:06:32 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Dang. I missed it too. Could it be that the Mac guys are only sending out ballots to like, you know, other Mac guys?"

Maybe former and current Sound Forge users were purged from the voter rolls? :-)

Shawn



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 10:05:06 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "Apple has sold more copies of X than it did of Studio 3. This is more than 3 million copies. This says something. This says that there are adoptions going on all over the place, and not being talked much about. It's not about what the 10,000 need. It's about what the 4 million need. "

This has been said a number of times over god knows how long, but Im not sure what it means. If it means that Apple have hit the bullseye on an approachable, yet scaling to advanced editing system that may square the circle of pixelmator/whatever/elements to say photoshop, or the numerous starter editing packages to FCP/Avid/Premiere - fine. But the thrust seems to be that by distributing 299 dollar single style wallmart sales in a one off event to a (lets guess the number) large scale, that Apple have then fundamentally shifted the craft and debate, and constructed a novel, and utterly new, editing paradigm - in that case I'm not sure I see it.

"not being talked much about"

That's an interesting phrase: not being employed, requested, sought after, or paid for in any context might be another phrase. (taught maybe).

straw in the wind here - but premiere just got two london hits this week on mandy worldwide mail list for editing - and the one the week before.

there has not been a single FCPX posting in this entire time, world wide, on this weekly list since the launch of FCPX. And this is not an application ripe to slide into general use - it near absolutely rejects almost all held practise - including its predecessor. It is nearly entirely a creation of cupertino fancy.
Schoonmaker and Murch, (of course their skill level is la-de-da and to be tea party despised as white tower) but seriously - barely any paid editors of factual, narrative and corporate across america and europe have the slightest visible truck with the connected clips, secondary storylines, non-sync detached audio gameshow.

the point ultimately is - why should anyone that comprises any element of paid professional practise twist their entire head around to look at, nevermind execute with this thing?

Given that near no one is asking them too?

- bar the street brawl on this forum? I've got a half respectable notion of FCPX - I honestly do not buy it.

say for my personal sins, I have spent the last two weeks, up at all hours, editing cycling and marathon highlights for venue playback at the mall and hampton court for the olympics. FCP7 still happily stands, taking a live virtual clip assembly in continuously via movie recorder control. great system. great egalitarian FCP ecosystem. An open, aspirational editing system built on common basic logic. (small wave to secondary storyline/connected clip joke logic)

nobody, (near literally) is writing cheques for the practise of FCPX - and we make our (nominal) livelihoods executing editing in software right?

are we bad to dismiss and ignore this software because we think it is badly and bizarrely made? Does this make us elitists? are the three million unseen FCPX bane men going to rise from the basement of editing gotham and slay us? for our one percent preference for intellectually thorough and consistent software?

Are we bad just to say FCPX is simply a slightly dodgy mess and good luck with that? Aren't we in a sense partly paid to perceive and weigh this kind of software? Are we trying to destroy the fourth amendment of editing democracy here?

(on a personal adobe note, after three months plus of dialogue, my second hand upgrade to Adobe Production Premium 6.0 is now mine - never, ever try to buy second hand Adobe - it is a kafkaesque nightmare)

I vote Premiere Pro 6.0 - it looks like sense.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 11:04:17 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "...But the thrust seems to be that by distributing 299 dollar single style wallmart sales in a one off event to a (lets guess the number) large scale, that Apple have then fundamentally shifted the craft and debate, and constructed a novel, and utterly new, editing paradigm - in that case I'm not sure I see it...

it near absolutely rejects almost all held practise - including its predecessor. It is nearly entirely a creation of cupertino fancy...

barely any paid editors of factual, narrative and corporate across america and europe have the slightest visible truck with the connected clips, secondary storylines, non-sync detached audio gameshow...

the point ultimately is - why should anyone that comprises any element of paid professional practise twist their entire head around to look at, nevermind execute with this thing?...

(small wave to secondary storyline/connected clip joke logic)...

are the three million unseen FCPX bane men going to rise from the basement of editing gotham and slay us? for our one percent preference for intellectually thorough and consistent software?

Are we bad just to say FCPX is simply a slightly dodgy mess and good luck with that?
"


Wow. So Let me see if I can sum up... "I haven't really used FCPX, nor has anyone I know, but I've read all sorts of bad things about it, and there are no job postings for it on some mailing list. Therefore, I do not like it, and FCPX is not a truly professional NLE."

Hey, if you don't like it, that's fine. But you also seem to be intimating that anyone who does use, or god forbid actually *prefer* FCPX is somehow not really professional. Am I reading that correctly?

If not, what is it exactly you are trying to say? In any case... here's my rebuttal: I am an award winning professional editor, I work with big, important movie studios on big, important movies and television shows and I like FCPX. It is great. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 11:34:28 pm

[Charlie Austin] "If not, what is it exactly you are trying to say? In any case... here's my rebuttal: I am an award winning professional editor, I work with big, important movie studios on big, important movies and television shows and I like FCPX. It is great. :-)
"


Game. Set. Match.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 11:50:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "[Charlie Austin] "If not, what is it exactly you are trying to say? In any case... here's my rebuttal: I am an award winning professional editor, I work with big, important movie studios on big, important movies and television shows and I like FCPX. It is great. :-)
"

Game. Set. Match."


Liking it is one thing. USING it on those "important movie and television shows" is another.

Have you?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:00:43 am

[Bill Davis] "Game. Set. Match."

I haven't had the first serve of a Broadcast FCPX job going through my facility to date so the game hasn't even started yet Bill. I know you're enthusiastic but the game has a long way to go yet.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:07:59 am

[Michael Gissing] "[Bill Davis] "Game. Set. Match."

I haven't had the first serve of a Broadcast FCPX job going through my facility to date so the game hasn't even started yet Bill. I know you're enthusiastic but the game has a long way to go yet."


You are correct. Actually, I think the game has started, but the players are still just starting to warm up. ;-) In my case, X has only been useable since 10.0.4... And I still feel like I'm walking on eggshells at times, but it's worth it. For me anyway...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:12:57 am

In my case Charlie the game hasn't started. I know of one editor out of around 50 that feed work through my post house from time to time and he is the only one using FCPX although on a recent job he used FCP7 due to the facility he was hired by.

I know the game has started elsewhere but Bill needs a reminder that we are far from anything remotely conclusive about FCPX's role in features & broadcast. Potential yes but long way to go.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 1:02:45 am

[Michael Gissing] "I know the game has started elsewhere but Bill needs a reminder that we are far from anything remotely conclusive about FCPX's role in features & broadcast. Potential yes but long way to go."

Once again, I agree. Hell, I still can't use it exclusively, mostly due to issues relating to sending elements out to someone like you for finishing. It's real close, but there's still work to do. I guess what keeps me blathering on here, is that it drives me crazy hearing people talk about how X won't work, is iMovie, isn't professional, throws out years of editing conventions etc.

The reason that drives me crazy is because I felt exactly the same way When X first came out. I was horrified. Tried to use it halfheartedly a few times and was convinced it sucked. Then, I literally forced myself to really try it, start a real project with a real deadline and a real client. I had to work through things that made me throw up my hands in frustration in earlier trials. I resisted the urge to just transfer the project back to FCP 7 daily. And now, all I can say is that cutting in X is fun. It just gets out of my way and lets me cut. So... I selfishly want it to succeed in the biz I work in, features and broadcast.

I'm an editor, I can cut on anything. But I'd prefer to move forward with FCPX. Thus... my ranting. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 11:02:00 pm

[Michael Gissing] "I know the game has started elsewhere but Bill needs a reminder that we are far from anything remotely conclusive about FCPX's role in features & broadcast. Potential yes but long way to go."

A fair assessment... HOWEVER.

I played this game once before a decade ago.

Transitioning between the BetaSP era and the DV era. Nobody in broadcast or advertising (or even industrial production for that matter!) did anything but look down their noses at the few of us who decided that we could possibly produce useful work for real-world clients with a DV camcorder and that weird new Final Cut Pro V1 software.

Five years later EVERYONE had to change to play the new game. And even those for whom the FCP approach "just didn't cut it" (and they were often right for their particular niche at that moment in time) had to eventually come around when the software came to dominate the landscape over it's development lifetime.

I'm feeling more and more confident that Apple got this one right as well - even if few of us recognized it from the start.

Aindreas came here and said (as he always does) "it's toybox crap" - and suddenly a different working professional editor came back and said "well, actually it's not."

That was serve and volley to my eye, and the volley was a winner simply because it blew up Aindreas's long espoused conviction that X is unworthy of professional consideration. In my opinion, that view has to be suspect when more than one working professional editor with network level standards it is willing to stand up and say it's NOT crap.

I don't know Mr. Austin personally, but from his posts here, he appears to be a working editor in one of those highly valued hollywood seats. And if so, his opinion should have more weight then mine in the debate of whether the software might be of value to editors doing precisely the kind of work he does.

Ainderes says it's crap and can't do pro work. Now someone else says different.

Aindreas served, Mr. Austin volleyed - and the point goes to Mr. Austin in my book. As to whether this is an exhibition game or the first match in a new era of our sport is anyone's guess.

We shall see.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 3:17:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "Ainderes says it's crap and can't do pro work. Now someone else says different. Aindreas served, Mr. Austin volleyed - and the point goes to Mr. Austin in my book. As to whether this is an exhibition game or the first match in a new era of our sport is anyone's guess. "

Bummer. I thought I was supposed to be skating to where the puck was going. Let me change my shoes and I'll meet you on the courts in ten. :)

I think Aindreas and Charlie are making different points. If Aindreas will permit me to put words in his mouth while he's off cutting Olympics footage on FCP Legend, his point seems reasonable: "Show me the money." If FCPX is so big with such huge sales and is so ready for professional editorial, why are there zero freelance gigs in London that require it?

My interpretation of Charlie's point (and please do correct me if I'm wrong) was that FCPX may not yet be accepted, but it is right on the cusp of readiness for broadcast.

It strikes me as a difference in perspective. Aindreas, in his position, must apparently work on whichever system is used in-house by his clients. Charlie, in his, can apparently choose the system he wants to work with. As such, Aindreas and Charlie may experience vastly different outcomes for using the same commercially unpopular tool in their respective markets. They can have different opinions and both still be right.



But that's not the interesting part of the thread for me.

This is:

[Aindreas Gallagher] "straw in the wind here - but premiere just got two london hits this week on mandy worldwide mail list for editing - and the one the week before. there has not been a single FCPX posting in this entire time, world wide, on this weekly list since the launch of FCPX."

[Chris Harlan] "I just talked with another cable Network that's going all Premiere for promos."

Proof that Premiere Pro is winning marketshare from FCP Legend?

Premiere Pro has gone from being considered a joke in some circles (when it was considered at all) to becoming a viable first choice in NLEs for broadcast promos. That's a big deal.

This doesn't take anything away from FCPX, but I think it does show how divergent workflow requirements are driving divergent NLE choices.

I joked the other day about FCP Legend being the editorial Pax Romana; maybe the analogy was more apt than I realized. The Pax Romana was pretty good for the general population, it was preserved through showmanship and propaganda, it was disrupted from within, and followed by a power struggle and shifting loyalties. Sounds familiar...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 3:41:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The Pax Romana was pretty good for the general population, it was preserved through showmanship and propaganda, "

This part of the analogy is a rather bizarre reading of history. I originally wrote a much longer note but I'm trying not to be a bigger A-hole than normal.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 4:06:46 pm

[Herb Sevush] "This part of the analogy is a rather bizarre reading of history. I originally wrote a much longer note but I'm trying not to be a bigger A-hole than normal."

Which part of history -- Roman or editorial? I'd gladly welcome your correction on either! But let's be real. I glibly compared niche software choice to 200 years without war. This is a massive, massive stretch, and it's bound to be dreadfully shallow!

Nonetheless, here's what I was thinking:

From Wikipedia [link] (what else?): "Augustus' challenge was to persuade Romans that the prosperity they could achieve in the absence of warfare was better for the Empire than the potential wealth and honor acquired when fighting a risky war. Augustus succeeded by means of skillful propaganda. Subsequent emperors followed his lead, sometimes producing lavish ceremonies to close the Gates of Janus, issuing coins with Pax on the reverse, and patronizing literature extolling the benefits of the Pax Romana.[4]"

Mass adoption of FCP offered the industry the stability of working on a single system (prosperity in the absence of warfare), but as FCP aged, revealed the opportunity costs vis-a-vis other NLEs in specific workflows (the potential wealth and honor acquired when fighting a risky war).

FCP Legend, for all the things it does do beautifully, was looking pretty creaky compared to its competitors on things like tapeless workflow, and people might have done well to look elsewhere, but Jobs said the next release would be "awesome" (an emperor issuing patronizing literature) so no one even bothered evaluating their alternatives until after the EOL of FCP Legend and the launch of FCPX (Commodus's assassination).

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 4:48:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Which part of history -- Roman or editorial?"

Roman. But now that I see that you are talking about the Pax as seen from the Roman side, as opposed to how the Pax was seen by the non-roman members of the empire your statement make more sense. Although like the end of the Pax, the end of FCP Legend is not so simply explained (Commodus's assassination was a symptom, not a cause)nor is the end point of the empire easy to point out - when you consider that the eastern empire, (like Legend?)lasted for another millennium.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 7:23:21 pm

[Herb Sevush] "the end of FCP Legend is not so simply explained (Commodus's assassination was a symptom, not a cause)nor is the end point of the empire easy to point out - when you consider that the eastern empire, (like Legend?)lasted for another millennium."

So, since you bring up the question of lasting over time... don't forget that the Romans also attemped to export their "centralized monolithic operating system" - particularly to the British Isles - for a significant chunk of history. But in the end, times changed. And the Romans left. Perhaps because maintaining a huge infastructure so far from the needs of their base population proved impractical. And lthe hassles foisted upon them by those plucky Caledonian, Voltadini et al tribes up north who wanted to do things their own dammed way successfully resisted assimilation to the end.

If you're arguing that the present high end suite-centric edit solution will remain a dominant way content is assembled and distributed across the broad spectrum of the whole video industry as it has in the past, for the top class of production - I suspect you're correct.

But for every one of those, there will be a hundred or possibly a thousand circumstances where a tool that can achieve the same quality of video and audio, inside a less complex production scope - will continually bleed off some of the market for the "editorial battleship" solutions.

And the problem is that so long as it succeeds and earns a place for the company that delivers smaller quicker and more efficient solutions - it will grow and develop because it will earn it's development resources.

Battleships are a superb tool - when you need a battleship. But it's one solution among many for winning wars. But if ALL you have is battleships for your defense, you're horribly vulnerable.

Come-sit-edit-master post has been around a LONG time and will remain..

Go-shoot-edit-upload post is pretty darn new but is a better process for a lot of modern content. Not all - but a LOT.

If you can't see the advantages of knowing how to do both - that's where you're going to have problems in the future, IMO.

And sorry, but while I know from reading here that other NLEs do "go-shoot-edit" perfectly well - X does it better than it's competition, IMO because that's consistent with were Apple obviously sees the computer industry going (mobile, decentralized, personal) - and if the resulting work is indistinguishable from studio work for someone who knows how to use the tools properly that's gonna keep a lot of pressure on legacy solutions. All of them.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 7:41:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "... if the resulting work is indistinguishable from studio work for someone who knows how to use the tools properly that's gonna keep a lot of pressure on legacy solutions. All of them."

Some people sell a product; other people sell a process.

When you sell a product, only the results matter. How you get there is up to you. This is where I agree that "legacy solutions" will face pressure.

When you sell a process, though, good results are assumed, and it's the the way that you achieve them that really adds value. For some, FCPX will excel here too, but for many others, this is where FCPX currently faces its greatest challenges.

For whatever it's worth, I think that the people selling results only (product) are the ones under the greatest pressure from the twin economic threats of higher supply of labor and lower barriers to entry.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 7:52:42 pm

[Walter Soyka] "For whatever it's worth, I think that the people selling results only (product) are the ones under the greatest pressure from the twin economic threats of higher supply of labor and lower barriers to entry."

This is one area where we perfectly agree, Walter.

If all you're selling is the ability to EDIT - you're going to be in a world of hurt since that now describes hosts of people who aren't skilled or professional in any way - but who can EDIT at a purely functional level.

So you have to sell something else. Unfortunately the old standbys like "quality" or "reliability" or "professionalism" are also decreasing in value.

All that's really left is the ability to differentiate yourself from the pack through intangibles like reputation or a singular focus on a part of the production process where others can't so easily compete with you. That might be expertise in a niche subject, or relationship access to talent, or some other intangible - but the ability to EDIT is not going to be a distinguishing characteristic much longer I fear.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:05:38 pm

[Bill Davis] "If all you're selling is the ability to EDIT - you're going to be in a world of hurt since that now describes hosts of people who aren't skilled or professional in any way - but who can EDIT at a purely functional level."

Bill,

I'm not sure what distinctions you're making. There's a difference between being able to edit and being able to edit well.

People come to me because of the quality of my work - my abilities, my sensibility, my reputation.

[Bill Davis] "Unfortunately the old standbys like "quality" or "reliability" or "professionalism" are also decreasing in value."

This is utterly untrue to my experience. What I see more and more is a craving for quality, engagement, responsibility.

Franz.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:41:59 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I'm not sure what distinctions you're making. There's a difference between being able to edit and being able to edit well.

People come to me because of the quality of my work - my abilities, my sensibility, my reputation.
"


What I'm saying is that access to the tools to learn or practice video editing used to be rare and difficult to come by. Today they are not. So the pool of people with familiarity with the practices of editing is growing tremendously.

Even if only 1 percent of the editing pool will ever achieve mastery that implies that if the pool starts at 1000 only 10 will likely become fully proficient editors. But what happens when the pool becomes not 1000, but 1 million? Over time, won't each editor end up potentially competing against not just 9 others, but 999 others?

That's a pretty difficult dynamic to contend with in this new era, perhaps.

The instructive parallel to me is the music industry. Lots of players. Still some "stars" but increasingly, it's not exclusively the finest players that get the hits. It's those who can leverage the new technological tools and somehow compel an audience to pay for their work - whether or not they exclusively have "the best" skills.

Just ask half the pop princesses or you tube video stars.

Not saying they're "un-professional" at all. Just that there are better singers and better video makers all over the place (many of them right here) who have significantly less success in the open marketplace than those with less pure skill or talent - but who took advantage of some other combination of elements to drive their success.

Hell, you've seen what I have. The killer stage video was just as likely to have been "produced and directed" by the bands buddy or the drummers brother than by a working pro. Relationship plus budget can equal quality (particularly if the kid in charge knows enough to sub-con out the actual work to people with real talent) - the time tested pros get paid, but their names end up far down on the credit rolls.

How it's always been, and how it ever will be.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 9:01:38 pm

[Bill Davis] "Even if only 1 percent of the editing pool will ever achieve mastery ..."

Bill,

You're assuming that the means to mastery scales with access to the tools. This is true if all it takes to master something is access.

No doubt there are more people editing now, maybe even more "good editors", but from what I see there is no direct relationship.

[Bill Davis] "... increasingly, it's not exclusively the finest players that get the hits."

Was it ever thus? With some periods of rare, miraculous exceptions, I've always thought talent was incidental to distribution.

But two deeper points:

The music industry is an interesting parallel - by draing a parallel you suggest that as the means of production become more accessible and distribution becomes cheaper (or free), there will be smaller audiences willing to pay for production, and there will be more of a push for event-like productions to generate sales.

I'm not convinced film and video will go that way, but interested to hear why you think it might.

More importantly though, I do think you're conflating production issues with distribution issues again.


Franz.


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 9:39:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "Even if only 1 percent of the editing pool will ever achieve mastery that implies that if the pool starts at 1000 only 10 will likely become fully proficient editors. But what happens when the pool becomes not 1000, but 1 million? Over time, won't each editor end up potentially competing against not just 9 others, but 999 others?"

Here's my armchair economics analysis:

The bottom end of the market is driven not by the market's need for inexpensive video production, but rather by video practitioners' desire to participate in the market. The conventional wisdom here on new entrants to the production market works well in this space. Economics apply, but no one playing here pays any attention to them. The low end "market" will balloon to accommodate the entrants' demand for jobs, not clients' demand for production. New entrants attracted to the sexy media industry will flood in and rates will continue to fall until the most desperate new entrants are actually paying to work.

The high end of the market is driven not by video practitioners' desire to participate, but rather by market demand for production services. It's vastly harder for new entrants to come here, because the barriers to entry and expected experience levels are high. Economics apply, and participants are sensitive to them. This market can only grow as large as clients' demand for production will allow, because no one can afford to build the experience necessary to compete here without getting paid appropriately for it.

There used to be a middle, but it's vanishing. If you're still in the middle now -- and I'd say that most of us here probably are -- you're getting squeezed toward one of these two extremes. If you're getting squeezed toward the low end, it looks like the sky is falling and you are on your way out of business, because you can't compete with the endless hordes of cheap or free labor.

The vanishing middle is creating a chasm between the low end and the high end. As clients polarize according to their production needs, opportunities on the low end to develop the kind of experience you'll need to compete on the high end become fewer and farther between. Natural opportunities for growth are vanishing, and soon the only way up will be to catch a ride on a rocket -- a client or connection that is able to grow based on some factor external to the production industry.

This is not to say that the low end is doing bad work. Quite the contrary -- the low end is capable of some really nice work that would have been very difficult to achieve only a few years ago. However, when trumpeting the incredibly quality they are capable of, the low end seems unaware the capabilities of the high end are growing at least as fast. The low end is just, say, 10 years behind the high end, and since the high end looked pretty good 10 years ago, the low end looks pretty good now -- in isolation. As long as this capabilities gap persists, the high end can earn its keep and offer value in the market, irrespective of price, which the low end cannot match. Anyone who thinks this gap is shrinking may well be unaware of the true capability at the high end of production.

In summary, I think there are two production pools, they don't really overlap, and the less-desirable of the two is growing at the faster rate. The differences between the two pools are making the jump from the low end to the high end progressively harder. The production value floor is being raised, but the production value ceiling is being raised, too. The rules of economics apply.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 12:30:20 am

[Walter Soyka]"In summary, I think there are two production pools, they don't really overlap, and the less-desirable of the two is growing at the faster rate. The differences between the two pools are making the jump from the low end to the high end progressively harder. The production value floor is being raised, but the production value ceiling is being raised, too. The rules of economics apply."

On that point I would like to add another reason why the gap is harder to cross. Training and Mentor-ship which used to be an important part of an industry based on big facilities and broadcasters has vanished. When I moved my humble facility to the bottom of the planet, it was partly to get into an economy of scale that allowed me more time to contemplate such training and mentor-ship and I have had some success in that.

However I am now seeing a jack of all trades approach where young film makers are trying to fulfil all roles from producer to director, camera, editor and distributor. Ironically I feel that being at the end of my career, I am much better placed to take them on in the one man band game but the truth is I now know enough about the multi disciplines of the industry to know what I like and what I am better at.

Modern training is online forums and Google searches for tutorials. That is a much harder road trying to bridge the keen amateur to professional divide with vicarious training.


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alban egger
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 10:15:51 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "People come to me because of the quality of my work - my abilities, my sensibility, my reputation.

[Bill Davis] "Unfortunately the old standbys like "quality" or "reliability" or "professionalism" are also decreasing in value."

This is utterly untrue to my experience. What I see more and more is a craving for quality, engagement, responsibility."


Absolutely agree with you. Edit and edit well are two different things and the most important for a freelancer (NOT an artist, but a professional freelancer) is reliability.

And since I use FCPX I beat deadlines many times days earlier while in FCP7 I just met them.
This allows me to a) spend time on the next project or/and b) spend time with my family. So FCPX is helping me to be more reliable and professional.

And while Chris and Herb might have certain workflows that are not feasable yet with FCPX, I have shown FCPX to people who are now in London and while there are no calls for freelance FCPX editors there this time, that is due to small issues e.g. FCPX doesn´t support XDCam Disks properly yet (mxf-export)....otherwise everyone I showed FCPX to was pretty much agreeing it is faster and better for something like a sports-cast promo or news edit or to manage weeks of footage that will be edited over the course of months later on with the keywords that are dropped on it during the Olympics.

I have edited at the Ironman World Champs in Hawaii already last October and I was quicker than anyone in the room around me (NBC used FCP7 for their highlight-show of the Ironman). But we had to use FCP7 also, to get the programs on XDCam Disks to uplink them to Europe.
The next Olympics (in 2 years in Russia) there will be NOT ONE FCP7 anymore. There will be FCP-XI and PP7.5.



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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 10:24:16 pm

[alban egger] "...otherwise everyone I showed FCPX to was pretty much agreeing it is faster ..."


Alban,


Now you can just show them Steve Connor's chart.
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/40043#40049

(You'll still have to explain why you're comparing X to 3 year old software, but charts are persuasive.)


Franz.


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alban egger
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 12:19:12 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "You'll still have to explain why you're comparing X to 3 year old software, but charts are persuasive"

I compare it to 3 year old software, because in this thread people are claiming FCPLegacy is where the money is, because that is what people ask freelancers to edit on NOW.

PP6 is also faster than FCP7, because it is 64-bit as well. But not everything is processor-speed, a lot what people here claim as "faster" is quicker turnaround in many workflows, becuase the media-management and editing process are more efficient than what they used before.



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Tim Wilson
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 2:44:40 pm

"PP6 is also faster than FCP7, because it is 64-bit as well. But not everything is processor-speed, a lot what people here claim as "faster" is quicker turnaround in many workflows, becuase the media-management and editing process are more efficient than what they used before."

PP6 and FCP 7 may also be "faster" in the sense of "not taking time from paying jobs to bang your head against something suboptimal until it has sufficiently bent you to its will."

It's different if X is optimal, or close enough to it, out of the box for you, or you have the time or inclination to with it in. but there's also something to be said for working with what works for you until it doesn't. That's not "fear" or "failure to look forward." it's efficiency, and if speed isn't about efficiency, it's not worth much more than fun for cheetahs.

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou

The typos here are most likely because I'm, a) typing this on my phone; and b) an idiot.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 7:51:21 pm

[Bill Davis] "don't forget that the Romans also attemped to export their "centralized monolithic operating system" - particularly to the British Isles - for a significant chunk of history. But in the end, times changed."

No, not particularly to the British Isles - they were a very minor afterthought. And any culture (other than the Egyptians) would be happy to have survived as long as the Roman Empire - almost 1500 years in one form or another. And yes time changes, and keeps changing, but foolish is the man who thinks he can accurately see the changes coming or understand what they mean - like a snail trying to anticipate the waves without seeing the cruise ship passing by.

[Bill Davis] "And the Romans left. Perhaps because maintaining a huge infastructure so far from the needs of their base population proved impractical. And lthe hassles foisted upon them by those plucky Caledonian, Voltadini et al tribes up north who wanted to do things their own dammed way successfully resisted assimilation to the end."

It's more likely the effects of massive plague-like epidemics that ravaged the Roman world, depopulating much of it, than it is the results of those plucky Caledonians - but you can believe what you like.

[Bill Davis] "If you're arguing that the present high end suite-centric edit solution will remain a dominant way content is assembled and distributed across the broad spectrum of the whole video industry as it has in the past, for the top class of production - I suspect you're correct."

I'm only arguing that there will continue to be such a thing as a "top class of production." I have no idea as to how it will be edited in the future, I just know that that is where I would aspire to work. And the tools required for that kind of work will have little to do with portability and much to do with collaborative ease, speed and quality of output.

[Bill Davis] "Come-sit-edit-master post has been around a LONG time and will remain. Go-shoot-edit-upload post is pretty darn new but is a better process for a lot of modern content. Not all - but a LOT. If you can't see the advantages of knowing how to do both - that's where you're going to have problems in the future, IMO."

I have no interest in go-shoot-edit. I'm not denigrating it, it's just not for me. I'm to old to go and shoot, I'm lucky if I can go and shit.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 7:54:23 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I have no interest in go-shoot-edit. I'm not denigrating it, it's just not for me. I'm to old to go and shoot, I'm lucky if I can go and shit."

I laughed out loud at that one

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:01:22 pm

Yep, so did I.

(you young guys, dont' take that as a blanket endorsement of scatological humor - just the right phrase at the right moment in the proper context.)

Nice one Herb.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Tim Wilson
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:06:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "you young guys, dont' take that as a blanket endorsement of scatological humor"

In that case, please consider THIS post -- or indeed, virtually any post I've made thus far -- to be a blanket endorsement of scatalogical humor.

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou

The typos here are most likely because I'm, a) typing this on my phone; and b) an idiot.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:21:27 pm

[Tim Wilson] "
In that case, please consider THIS post -- or indeed, virtually any post I've made thus far -- to be a blanket endorsement of scatalogical humor."


Shoulda known that in the world of Cows, manure references would be looked on as just a part of the process...

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 6:48:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "My interpretation of Charlie's point (and please do correct me if I'm wrong) was that FCPX may not yet be accepted, but it is right on the cusp of readiness for broadcast."

Correctamundo. :-) Really the only thing keeping me from going all in is that I need to be able to deliver finishing elements (EDL, AAF etc) that the most finicky of post houses can deal with. It's real close.

[Walter Soyka] It strikes me as a difference in perspective. Aindreas, in his position, must apparently work on whichever system is used in-house by his clients. Charlie, in his, can apparently choose the system he wants to work with. As such, Aindreas and Charlie may experience vastly different outcomes for using the same commercially unpopular tool in their respective markets. They can have different opinions and both still be right."

Also true, the only caveat being what I noted above. I don't know if X will ever be able to do proper edit to tape/machine control, so if that's a big part of ones workflow then it's probably not gonna work. But for us, 90 percent of the elements we get from the studios now are HD files on drives, and we havent layer anything off to tape in at least a year, so that's a non issue. For us. Anyway... my point has always been that from a purely editorial perspective, I prefer X over 7 or Pr or MC. No question about that at all.

What drives me nuts are 2 things. First being the whole "it's a toy" train of thought. It's not. I can do things in X that I really can't do in 7. And I can cut faster in it, composite giant piles of video just like any other NLE, easily move those piles around the timeline, and do much finer audio adjustments than are possible in 7. I'm a former mixer and I'm tellin' ya... roles make tracks totally unnecessary - and they are still in their infancy. Of course I'm just some random guy saying so, but I wish i could sit down with Herb and Chris and others and show them why I think so.

That brings me to the other thing that drives me nuts. When people say "I work this way in 7 and I can't in X so I can't use it and it isn't a viable choice." And honestly, for folks like Aindreas who need to work on client systems, or have technical needs that X doesn't meet, that's a valid point - though I don't think it's reason enough to write it off just yet... That's just me though. ;-) No, what drives me to keep blathering on here is that - as an editor who's' been cutting all day, every day for 15 years, first on Avid and then on FCP, I felt exactly the same way when I first tried to use FCP X. Hated it. Even after I used it a few times I hated it. So I totally understand where folks are coming from and I wish i could reach out through the inter tubes and show people what changed my mind, and why maybe they should change theirs. X isn't the fastest NLE on earth. X isn't throwing out 100 years of editing conventions. X still drives me nuts at times, but it's pretty damn good. And it's gonna get better.

Well, in my 'some random guy on the internet' opinion anyway... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 12:03:06 am

[Charlie Austin] "but I wish i could sit down with Herb and Chris and others and show them why I think so"

Well, I can do that. After summer, lets have a long lunch sometime. My treat. We'll bring our laptops and bounce the thing around a bit. I'd really enjoy that.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 12:42:26 am

[Chris Harlan] "Well, I can do that. After summer, lets have a long lunch sometime. My treat. We'll bring our laptops and bounce the thing around a bit. I'd really enjoy that."

Deal. :-) Sadly my Original MB Air won't run X, but we can figure something out... On a related note...

Remember that project from hell I was talking about in my earlier post? Well, it's taking FCP7 4-6 minutes to render a 10 second composited section. Every time I move something, I need to wait that long to see it. So... I copied that section into a new sequence, and imported it to X. Ya know... just to see the difference.

It just played. A little jumpy on a couple bits, but even the rendering only took seconds, so it didn't force me to stop working at all. But... I gotta keep it in 7, so back to the salt mines I go. *sigh* :-(

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 5:40:59 am

[Charlie Austin] "Remember that project from hell I was talking about in my earlier post? Well, it's taking FCP7 4-6 minutes to render a 10 second composited section. Every time I move something, I need to wait that long to see it. So... I copied that section into a new sequence, and imported it to X. Ya know... just to see the difference.

It just played. A little jumpy on a couple bits, but even the rendering only took seconds, so it didn't force me to stop working at all. But... I gotta keep it in 7, so back to the salt mines I go. *sigh* :-("


Tip, Charlie, whatever else you do, just don't claim that X is "faster" to edit with even if you actually think it is.

Makes people here CRAZY.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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alban egger
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 2:39:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "If FCPX is so big with such huge sales and is so ready for professional editorial, why are there zero freelance gigs in London that require it?"

Well that is two-fold: for one the networks are the last to make a switch, because it is immensely expensive to install hundreds of new NLEs. So network-jobs here in Austria are still in FAST (which was later bought by Pinnacle and AVID and sold as Liquid); in 2012!! So the networks do not care what software can do as long as it fits their budget and timeframe.

The other side of this are the freelancers: I usually get asked what I WANT TO use. Avid or FCP7? And when I say FCPX then well....let´s use that. They don´t care as long as it works. And if I need to use FCP7 in the end to export my MXF, they don´t care either, because all they are interested is the film in that MXF.

So while there are basically no freelance jobs for FCPX in London. that does not mean that nobody would allow you to use it, but it is so new in terms of network-timeframes it is not even on their horizon yet.
But it will and FCP7 will soon be out of there, once PP and FCPX editors will walk the door out earlier than the FCP7 editors....time is money.



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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 3:08:20 pm

Alban, just for clarity, the part of my post you quoted was what I interpreted Aindreas's post to mean.

Some of us can choose what tools we use; others must use the tool their clients choose. This is a huge difference in perspective, and I thought that a misunderstanding of that difference was hindering the conversation here.


[alban egger] "The other side of this are the freelancers: I usually get asked what I WANT TO use."

Not all freelancers have this option. I think it depends on what kind of client is hiring you.

End clients are results-only. For agency or production company clients, both results and processes count.

If you are hired to provide a product -- the final edit -- then your tool choice is totally up to you. Other freelancers may be hired to provide part of the process, and then the tool choice is up to the client.

In some of my work for production companies and agencies, project files are deliverables. In these cases, I must use the same tools as my client.

I lost a bid last year for some 3D animation work because I use Cinema 4D and the agency wanted native Maya work. Could we have achieved the same end results with C4D? Of course, but that would have only met one of the agency's needs. They also needed to know that the work would fit in their pipeline without any issues if they needed to repurpose it.

From their perspective, even though we have a great relationship and they knew that we'd deliver the results they needed, I would have been the wrong choice for the job specifically because of the tools I use.

As long as people are hired to work within others' pipelines, I do think that the question of "what NLE can I get hired to use" is germane.

Of course I would agree with you that any blanket statement that FCPX is unsuitable for professional work is utter poppycock -- but I do remain sympathetic to cases where a specific tool may not be used, regardless of its merit, for external workflow or systemic reasons.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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alban egger
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 9, 2012 at 2:22:32 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Of course I would agree with you that any blanket statement that FCPX is unsuitable for professional work is utter poppycock -- but I do remain sympathetic to cases where a specific tool may not be used, regardless of its merit, for external workflow or systemic reasons."

We are on the same page then :D
After all I still use FCP7 on all projects where I need to export 8-OMF tracks for the client´s audio-division.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 6:03:10 pm

jesus. yes, right ok - exhibition - one day cricket.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:04:53 am

[Shane Ross] "Liking it is one thing. USING it on those "important movie and television shows" is another.

Have you?"


Yep. Got some spots on the air and in theaters as we speak. I don't use it exclusively yet, there are a few things that need to happen before I can, but I'd like to. I'll be the first to admit that X still needs some work and functionality, but I really do prefer it to FCP 7.

Also, all due respect to Bill, the "game, set, match" comment doesn't help. Nor does the whole "new paradigm" narrative. It's not a new paradigm, it's just a new NLE with a different interface, IMHO.

I'm not trying to "win" anything here, Just dispel misconceptions. If X doesn't work for someone for technical or personal preference reasons, fine. But I have issues with people who loudly proclaim it's not a "professional" app. That's horseshit.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:33:04 am

[Charlie Austin] "That's horseshit."

it bloody well is not.

"The goal for every Apple software product is to sell more hardware.
Even the Mac operating system is just trying to get people to buy more Mac computers.

The pro market is too small for Apple to care about it.
Instead of trying to get hundreds or even thousands of video professionals to buy new Macs,
they can nail the pro-sumer market and sell to hundreds of thousands of hobbyists like me."


http://sachin.posterous.com/why-apple-built-final-cut-pro-x

That bloke, Charlie, was on the FCP staff for over half a decade. that is his determination of FCPX.

A question to you ok?

Is there actually, ever, a valid point beyond which editors should, or are bound to, defend the essential characteristics of professional software? When does dumb get really really dumb? when the primary is green and the secondary is orange? mmm?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 11:43:58 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Also, all due respect to Bill, the "game, set, match" comment doesn't help. Nor does the whole "new paradigm" narrative. It's not a new paradigm, it's just a new NLE with a different interface, IMHO.

I'm not trying to "win" anything here, Just dispel misconceptions. If X doesn't work for someone for technical or personal preference reasons, fine. But I have issues with people who loudly proclaim it's not a "professional" app. That's horseshit.
"


Fair, Charlie.

I should apologize for dragging you into this. For historical perspective, I've been in this virtual wrestling match for more than a year with Aindreas - he's been popping up here since the beginning and relentlessly trashing the software. As I've noted before, he kinda takes the EOL of Legacy as if Apple sent a team to his house to set fire to his favorite tree and shave his dog. He just can't get over his emotional block.

There were certainly others who've had their issues with X - and many of those issues have been legitimate. But in his case, it's been 90% opinionated invective and 10% reality.

Also, forgive me if I'm kinda pleased that after so long in the FCP-X supporter wilderness, voices other than just mine, Craigs, and Jeremys are increasingly popping up. While we might be working professionals in our own niches - we tend to be the sole practitioners who can make software decisions without going up a large chain of command. It's simply good to see the more flexible of you guys in the big leagues who are willing to give the software a chance.

That's all we supporters have hoped for, I think. Just let the software sink or swim on it's own merits - without those who's opinions were hardened in the first month continue to keep reiterating what they thought they knew about it last year.

Anyway, thanks for your contributions to the discussion.

Take care.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 10:58:01 am

and, for the record, Bill has consistently provided pithy, brief, balanced posts, completely devoid of condescension, verbosity, ad hominem attacks, pomposity, delusions of grandeur, messianic insights into editing, or wildly inappropriate closing quotations.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 8, 2012 at 5:51:46 pm

If so, be assured I will immediately redouble my efforts to avoid that in the future.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 11:51:19 pm

"before speaking, hold a doughnut, compress snow, and sneeze"

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 11:42:44 pm

Dandy. call it out mate - call out the involved studios and shows, that's very worth while -

I happily quoted a BBC factual editor a while back who was pitching a flag for an exclusive FCPX doco site in london. off a chat like this over at fcpx.co -

its all good.

but, to be fair, in the end, judgement will eventually be called on this software and the whole secondary/roles/connected whatever

I think its us because our nose is at the grindstone - we get to have every wrinkle at the worst possible moment.

however - if judgements on the scale you are referencing are actually happening at major studios with major projects - you really should lay that out.

that could have me instantly back at the app for the simplest bread hungry reasons.

(and I really have spent half-decent time at the app)

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:31:02 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Dandy. call it out mate - call out the involved studios and shows, that's very worth while -

I happily quoted a BBC factual editor a while back who was pitching a flag for an exclusive FCPX doco site in london. off a chat like this over at fcpx.co -

its all good.

but, to be fair, in the end, judgement will eventually be called on this software and the whole secondary/roles/connected whatever

I think its us because our nose is at the grindstone - we get to have every wrinkle at the worst possible moment.

however - if judgements on the scale you are referencing are actually happening at major studios with major projects - you really should lay that out.

that could have me instantly back at the app for the simplest bread hungry reasons.

(and I really have spent half-decent time at the app)"


Sorry if I came off as a dick, that really wasn't my intention. I guess the "Walmart" comment just sort of rubbed me the wrong way. :-) And to be fair, FCPX, much as I like it, really is very immature at this point in many areas. But it's really a great tool, and once you "get it", which doesn't take that long if you force yourself to, it's a joy to work with. Seriously, it makes me smile daily. Also, it drives me nuts, but only because I can see where they're going with a lot of the features, and wish they'd hurry up and get there. Anyway... my apologies if I was sort of a jerk back there. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:53:49 am

ha! I come off *resplendently* as a dick ;) - repeatedly. (please ignore arsey FCP engineer quote above...)

half suspect I haven't given the software enough time of day - makes for a dodgy perspective.

but there's a real bull mood over here. herd says no.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 1:16:21 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I come off *resplendently* as a dick ;) - repeatedly. (please ignore arsey FCP engineer quote above...)

Done.. didn't mean to rub ya the wrong way. I'm right though. LOL

[Aindreas Gallagher] half suspect I haven't given the software enough time of day - makes for a dodgy perspective.

You really do need to force yourself to get past the perceived differences. For one, I'd suggest avoiding the primary story line to start. Cut everything in as connected clips, it works almost exactly like FCP 7 and other NLE's if you do that. There's a lot of really cool stuff in there... once you get past the "WTF is this?!?!" phase.

[Aindreas Gallagher] but there's a real bull mood over here. herd says no."

True. The herd said exactly the same thing about the original FCP in 1999. They were wrong. We'll see what happens this time. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 4:49:36 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "but there's a real bull mood over here. herd says no."

[Charlie Austin] "True. The herd said exactly the same thing about the original FCP in 1999. They were wrong. We'll see what happens this time. ;-)"

In 1999, FCP was pretty limited and not a serious competitor to Avid -- just as in 1989, Avid was pretty limited and not a serious competitor to CMX. Passing on those products at those times was a responsible reaction for a working editor to have.

Then, like a carton of milk, these opinions became sour beyond their expiration dates. It turns out that saying "this product does not work for me" is very different than saying "this product could never work for me."

That said, past performance is no guarantee of future results. Just because FCP Legend ushered in the editorial equivalent of the Pax Romana doesn't mean that FCPX can do the same. In some markets, this could turn out like the old joke: "FCPX is the future of NLEs -- and it always will be."

We may see a period of time where NLE choice diverges, especially since each of the major NLEs offers different philosophies and workflow strengths and weaknesses. If nothing else, this new wave of competition of ideas among media application developers will get some really great tools into our hands.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 9:31:34 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "... are the three million unseen FCPX bane men going to rise from the basement of editing ..."

Aindreas,

You trust that number to much. You might as well make one up yourself.

Franz.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 4:17:07 am

[Jerry Hofmann] "Why shouldn't audio be connected always to video?"

I'm not quite clear what you mean here. Do you mean audio should always be connected to the original video it was recorded with, or is it that audio always needs to have a video reference to go with it?

[Jerry Hofmann] "Track's only real reason for existence is the ability to be able to export them separately. X's "roles" does the same thing, and then some."

Actually the main advantage of tracks is to give visual organization and coherence to a timeline, making it easy for the editor to see where every element is at a glance. With X can you see at one moment, without clicking on anything, exactly where your sync, audio efx and music are, assuming 2 layers of sync, 2 layers of EFX and 4 layers of music. If so please tell me how?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:54:50 pm

I'm talking about the fact that we always want audio to come at a certain place with the video. I'm pointing out that it should move with that video if I move the video. FCP X accomplishes this for me.

You have to click in order to highlight certain roles it's true. But that extra click has allowed you to have the magnetic timeline in the first place, I think that's certainly a doable trade-off.

Jerry


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 1:22:54 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "I'm talking about the fact that we always want audio to come at a certain place with the video. I'm pointing out that it should move with that video if I move the video. FCP X accomplishes this for me. "

What moves and what doesn't move can be as complicated or simple as you like. I understand the magnetic timeline makes some types of movement very simple, on the other hand I never found moving clips around the timeline the least bit difficult in FCP7. For me the concept of the magnetic timeline is the solution to a problem I never had.

[Jerry Hofmann] "You have to click in order to highlight certain roles it's true. But that extra click has allowed you to have the magnetic timeline in the first place, I think that's certainly a doable trade-off."

These "extra clicks" of yours certainly don't speed things up and the idea of editing in the dark has never appealed to me. For me the advantages of the magnetic timeline are small compared to the disadvantage of editing in an incoherent timeline, let alone the loss of such things as the sync indicator window which alone makes me reject working with X, or PPRp for that matter.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 2:05:49 pm

Right! You decide when any audio will always and only move with X and you only select it or the picture it's attached to. things like sound effects carefully synced move if you move the picture it's edited to. But the music attached earlier doesn't move. Just as you've set it up to behave.

The number of clicks saved in the timeline are greatly reduced overall through the process. Another reason it's fast to create a sequence. Do yourself a favor and learn it. Good for the brain in any event!

Jerry


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Gary Huff
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 3:41:30 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "The number of clicks saved in the timeline are greatly reduced overall through the process. Another reason it's fast to create a sequence. Do yourself a favor and learn it. Good for the brain in any event!"

How many clicks has it been reduced by?


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 7:56:55 pm

[Shane Ross] "an AAF/OMF to an audio mixer (with tracks organized in a way that makes it easier on them, not mixed dialog and SFX and music...audio mixers DO work in tracks), "

FWIW, The upcoming revision to X2Pro does this amazingly well. Groups Roles (tracks) in whatever order you define, translates volume and all keyframe fades etc. Really really nice. I expect you'll be able to do the same in the X timeline soon. Also, not necessarily on topic... A little bird told me there may be an FCPX API available to developers soon. This is strictly here-say and I have no actual knowledge of this at all, but if true it will create some interesting possibilities... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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alban egger
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 9:25:23 pm

[Shane Ross] "[Jerry Hofmann] "6. Smart collections make organization nearly automatic."

"nearly?" Don't you have to label things, take the time to do what it takes to put them into Smart Collections? That's still manually organizing things."


Nope, you don´t have to do anything else than select metadata, even if you did not label anything.
e.g. you can select all files shot by cameraA in 720p in over crank-mode from a certain range of 3 days in March with one person in it (and not 1080p25 and not 720p50 and not from before or after or any other camera). You would not have to label anything. I never use any of the auto features (I rather log the CUs, wides and 2 or 1 person shot etc myself), but it is possible to narrow down thousands of clips without ever looking at any of them VERY easily and instantly. I just tried this above example and it took me 33 seconds (small project with 500 clips, selecting 10 of 150 that were shot on that weekend).
Once you have logged and key worded your footage and even added roles, this can go very far in organizing years of material.

And about FCPX being the fastest NLE in the world....hmmm....it is on some tasks, and it is not in others. No NLE can say it is perfect, but it is clear to me when someone tried FCPX it is a huge step back to CS6 and Avid, because of the limitations of tracks and mediamanagement.
They have their advantages and they have some features that are needed for many workflows (and FCPX does miss the audio mixer among other features badly), but as an editor and mediamanager itself I take FCPX over both of them easily and it seems the number of people thinking like that is increasing.



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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 9:49:16 pm

[Shane Ross] "an AAF/OMF to an audio mixer (with tracks organized in a way that makes it easier on them, not mixed dialog and SFX and music...audio mixers DO work in tracks), "

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is soon to be a non issue..in a few weeks hopefully, an X timeline like this:



Exports to protools like this:



All split out nicely automatically. So... AAF... essentially done. EDL's... done. Few more biggies to go and then it all comes down to personal preferences. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 7:43:08 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "And this is why a lot of pros are scared to death of it. If any one can use it, they believe their jobs are at risk. "

While I agree with much of what you're saying, I'd take issue with that last statement. I don't think pro's are *scared* of X. There are some legit concerns, mostly related to not being able to just quickly switch in mid-project without slowing down. There *is* a significant learning curve, and X does many things differently that people on tight deadlines, with clients foaming at the mouth behind them, need. However, the more time one spends with it, well... it sort of grows on you... ;-)

That said, I am starting as many projects as I can in X. And I don't miss tracks at all... FWIW I come from an audio background and have a *minimum* of 16 "tracks" of audio in a spot. It took a while to get used to it, but when I cut in an NLE with fixed tracks now it drives me crazy. Once they add the ability to group /mix roles, and maybe assign video layer priority (like photoshop) We'll wonder why we ever cared about tracks imho...

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 7:44:13 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] " X is the fastest NLE in the world, period."

What if most of your work involves bouncing to and from After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator? Would FCPX still be faster than every other NLE on the planet? Perhaps workflow and function should be taken into consideration here. :-)

Shawn



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Andy Field
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 8:01:30 pm

Lets get back to Audio -

I cant grasp how NOT having an automated audio mixer is a plus in FCP X.....

we use it every single day to make subtle on the fly music dialogue and sound effects mixes in FCP 7 as well as AVID and PP....X simply doesn't have this --

Rubber banding. double clicking and opening audio - is that really faster and more efficient?

we often layer 10 tracks of sfx, music dialogue that does NOT connect to the video - it's independent of the video ..so the statement "audio should always connect to video" simply doesn't exist in real life editing for documentaries and features.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 8:18:40 pm

[Andy Field] "I cant grasp how NOT having an automated audio mixer is a plus in FCP X.....

we use it every single day to make subtle on the fly music dialogue and sound effects mixes in FCP 7 as well as AVID and PP....X simply doesn't have this --

Rubber banding. double clicking and opening audio - is that really faster and more efficient?"


It isn't a plus, and I'm pretty sure that X will be able to do this and more... Hopefully soon. That said, clip based soloing, and soloing/editing without stopping playback in X is awesome. Like... amazingly awesome

[Andy Field] "we often layer 10 tracks of sfx, music dialogue that does NOT connect to the video - it's independent of the video ..so the statement "audio should always connect to video" simply doesn't exist in real life editing for documentaries and features."

Only 10? Piker... LOL ;-) I agree with ya there, I think people try to justify features in X that don't need justification, or could honestly work better. But... it's really a non-issue if you edit with connected clips, creating secondary storylines if you need to add a custom transition or something. Works just like any other NLE on the planet if you want it to. X is very flexible despite the fact that everyone who hasn't used it thinks it's not. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 2:54:35 am

[Charlie Austin] "Works just like any other NLE on the planet if you want it to. X is very flexible despite the fact that everyone who hasn't used it thinks it's not. :-)
"


Sigh. I just don't have the time, Charlie. It's a value judgement. It might be fun and it might be useful, but as I'm watching things move around town, I'm just not seeing it getting much traction. You like it. Folks like John Davidson like it. But I just talked with another cable Network that's going all Premiere for promos. I'm not feeling any real incentive to get on board with X.

The thing is, I like the way I work now, and I have been given very few actual reasons to rethink it. If I did multicam, for instance, I'd be thinking about it. If I were in fast-paced ENG, with a lot of simple A/B, I'd be thinking about it. And the fact that you and John think its spiffy and valuable, and that we all do kinda the same thing, gives me some pause, and when Summer's over I'll stumble over to John's place and take a look, but I really don't feel I have a lot of incentive to get on the X bus.

I'm open to sound argument, though, and like it when I hear concrete specifics about FCP X's virtues. It just gets weird when folks make these majestic pronouncements about X, like it being faster than anything including cheetahs or that its metadata underpinnings are tied into some 23rd century technology that anchors it to the heart of the future and is the door to all known universes. AND that I won't truly understand either of these facts until I spend six months studying it and rewiring my neural pathways so that I "get it." And, no questioning or criticizing until then. Sadly, that's the same argument cults often employ.

I'm certainly open to it in the future. Three things might get me to hand my brain in for 6 months of trial and error--a mixer, color-coded roles (so that I can get a strong visual of where things sit on my timeline), and the ability to manually save both backups and alternate versions. Oh, four--add the ability to export a range.

And FWIW, I don't know what others mean, but when I talk of FCP X's inflexibility, I'm referring to its locked down interface--the inability to put windows where you want, the inability to have multiple open timelines, etc.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 7:56:10 am

[Chris Harlan] "Sigh. I just don't have the time, Charlie. It's a value judgement. It might be fun and it might be useful, but as I'm watching things move around town, I'm just not seeing it getting much traction. You like it. Folks like John Davidson like it. But I just talked with another cable Network that's going all Premiere for promos. I'm not feeling any real incentive to get on board with X."

I can understand that, I might feel differently as well if I were freelancing. If I needed to edit to tape I'd feel differently. And honestly, at the end of the day I'm gonna need to get the rest of the editors where I work on board. It's not a done deal. Funny thing is, when you say:

[Chris Harlan] "The thing is, I like the way I work now,"

That's exactly how I feel about X now, warts and all. I took over a key art reel we're cutting from another of our editors today. It's an FCP 7 project, and needs to stay that way because it might have to bounce back to the original editor at some point. 1080p HDTV sequence, but with loads of stills, stuff pulled from the web, all sorts of random mixed audio and video formats. It is painful. Rendering for 8 minutes at a time, because I needed to move a 15 second layer of video. rendering audio. Oh, I need to solo something. Let me carefully trace a line down the timeline to see which track it's on. Oh, wait... I don't want to hear the clip right before it on the same track... guess I need to move it, or disable it. No big deal, except 5 minutes ago I was just cutting in an app where I can highlight the clip, solo it, add other clips to the solo group, and never stop playback. Render audio? no need. Spend 2 hours transcoding HD mp4's to ProRes so I can cut with them? Screw that. I like the new way I work now. :-)

[Chris Harlan] I'm open to sound argument, though, and like it when I hear concrete specifics about FCP X's virtues. It just gets weird when folks make these majestic pronouncements about X, like it being faster than anything including cheetahs or that its metadata underpinnings are tied into some 23rd century technology that anchors it to the heart of the future and is the door to all known universes. AND that I won't truly understand either of these facts until I spend six months studying it and rewiring my neural pathways so that I "get it." And, no questioning or criticizing until then. Sadly, that's the same argument cults often employ.

Honestly, I totally agree with you there. As I've said before, It's the 90's Mac vs. PC argument redux. Pointless. Every NLE has strong points and weak points. I happen to think Pr and MC are big, cluttered messes, but that's just my opinion. That's why I started using FCP 1 back in '99. But I'm not gonna criticize someone else's choice, or try to convince them of the error of their ways because they don't use what I like. All I've ever tried to do here and elsewhere is say that I really like X, imperfect as it is. For what I do, and for me it is awesome. And FWIW I'm not just doing simple A/B editing. I really want to open that clusterf*ck of a sequence I'm cutting in 7 in X just to see the difference, but it'll probably just make we want to keep it in there and then I'll be stuck with it. Yeah, it's one of *those* projects. ;-)

[Chris Harlan] I'm certainly open to it in the future. Three things might get me to hand my brain in for 6 months of trial and error--a mixer, color-coded roles (so that I can get a strong visual of where things sit on my timeline), and the ability to manually save both backups and alternate versions. Oh, four--add the ability to export a range."

Well, I.m betting that's all coming, and honestly, I don't think it'd take 6 months, it took me about a week to get my head around the interface, a little longer to learn the important keyboard shortcuts and figure out a workflow that I could deal with. I avoid storylines pretty much, so I've had to adapt to using keyframes and fade handles rather than just throwing fade transition onto clips, but that's really the only thing I miss. And I don't miss it too much. I find new fun things every day, and by fun I mean they let me work faster. :-)

[Chris Harlan] And FWIW, I don't know what others mean, but when I talk of FCP X's inflexibility, I'm referring to its locked down interface--the inability to put windows where you want, the inability to have multiple open timelines, etc."

I get ya, it would be nice to break out windows the way you want rather than the 2 or 3 setups they give you. I guess the bottom line is, if ya get some time, just cut something in X as though you have no choice. That's kind of what I did. Like: "well, this thing sucks, but I gotta figure out how to use it under pressure because it's all I've got." That's what I did, and it turned out it didn't suck. OK, *some* things suck, but all in all, it's pretty great.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:33:46 am

[Charlie Austin] "I don't think it'd take 6 months, it took me about a week to get my head around the interface, a little longer to learn the important keyboard shortcuts and figure out a workflow that I could deal with"

I wouldn't expect it to take six months either. I just threw out that number because I was pontificated at once that I had no right to criticize X unless I'd put that kind of time in.

[Charlie Austin] "And honestly, at the end of the day I'm gonna need to get the rest of the editors where I work on board. It's not a done deal"

LOL. Among my guys, I'm the one that has something nice to say about X.


[Charlie Austin] "Chris Harlan] I'm certainly open to it in the future. Three things might get me to hand my brain in for 6 months of trial and error--a mixer, color-coded roles (so that I can get a strong visual of where things sit on my timeline), and the ability to manually save both backups and alternate versions. Oh, four--add the ability to export a range."

Well, I.m betting that's all coming,"


If it does, I'll probably give it a shot.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 3:43:39 pm

[Chris Harlan] "If I did multicam, for instance, I'd be thinking about it."

Not until they built some sort of timecode sync indicator window you wouldn't.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 6:12:14 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Chris Harlan] "If I did multicam, for instance, I'd be thinking about it."

Not until they built some sort of timecode sync indicator window you wouldn't.
"


Ah. See? I didn't think about that because I'm not thinking about it. If I'd been thinking about it, I would have thought about that, and realized that I should stop thinking about it.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 7:46:21 pm

[Chris Harlan] "It just gets weird when folks make these majestic pronouncements about X, like it being faster than anything including cheetahs"

OK then. Just because it's making my work go much faster, I'll pipe down. Who wants to hear about that kind of thing anyway when learning about a software tool.

[Chris Harlan] "or that its metadata underpinnings are tied into some 23rd century technology that anchors it to the heart of the future and is the door to all known universes."

Again, OK. I get that it's hard to understand for some. It's kinda complicated I'll admit. OTOH, I've been talking to my old magazine friends about doing some more writing for them, and know what? If I do, they tell me I'll have to deliver not just my articles, but likely attached keyword collections and keyword analysis metrics. Cuz, all that pesky metadata stuff is kinda transforming that industry, too. Go figure.

[Chris Harlan] "AND that I won't truly understand either of these facts until I spend six months studying it and rewiring my neural pathways so that I "get it." And, no questioning or criticizing until then. Sadly, that's the same argument cults often employ. "

Wouldn't it be really scary if that was actually TRUE. That a person couldn't pick up this particular NLE and using their accumulated knowledge of how to use previous ones - use THIS one efficiently from the get go? Golly! That would certainly cause months of consternation and angst amongst the editing community.... oh wait.

And excuse me, but who exactly has prevented any voices from criticizing X in any way shape or form? Yeah, some of us push back when we think you're wrong. But that is NOT the same as "no questioning or criticizing.

Finally, cults do "cult stuff" to gain control and force others to subsume their individuality in service to the cult. Apple, having been a planetary leader in creating tools that EMPOWER individual expression is kinda the anti-cult, IMO. You and others keep coming back and bemoaning how they took away Legacy - that's kinda like willfully disbanding a cult right there, isnt' it? ; )




Anyway,

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:48:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "[Chris Harlan] "It just gets weird when folks make these majestic pronouncements about X, like it being faster than anything including cheetahs"

OK then. Just because it's making my work go much faster, I'll pipe down. Who wants to hear about that kind of thing anyway when learning about a software tool.
"


No. Sharing personal anecdotes about how it improves your work is of great value. Making vacuous, unsubstantiated claims that X is just downright faster than anything else that exists is of no value. Do you understand the difference?


[Bill Davis] "[Chris Harlan] "or that its metadata underpinnings are tied into some 23rd century technology that anchors it to the heart of the future and is the door to all known universes."

Again, OK. I get that it's hard to understand for some. It's kinda complicated I'll admit. OTOH, I've been talking to my old magazine friends about doing some more writing for them, and know what? If I do, they tell me I'll have to deliver not just my articles, but likely attached keyword collections and keyword analysis metrics. Cuz, all that pesky metadata stuff is kinda transforming that industry, too. Go figure.
"


I don't even know where to start with you on this Bill. Your blindness to the state of everything else out there, and your persistent claim that people who don't value what you value just don't "get it," is a bit tiresome. You should open your eyes and look around a little bit more.


[Bill Davis] "[Chris Harlan] "AND that I won't truly understand either of these facts until I spend six months studying it and rewiring my neural pathways so that I "get it." And, no questioning or criticizing until then. Sadly, that's the same argument cults often employ. "

Wouldn't it be really scary if that was actually TRUE. That a person couldn't pick up this particular NLE and using their accumulated knowledge of how to use previous ones - use THIS one efficiently from the get go? Golly! That would certainly cause months of consternation and angst amongst the editing community.... oh wait.
"


Bill, there are many places in life where you need to make a decision based on a minimal amount of useful evidence. We don't have the time in our lives to read every book to the end to decide that we don't like. We don't even have the time to read the first chapter of every book to decide that we don't like it. Does that not make sense to you?


[Bill Davis] "And excuse me, but who exactly has prevented any voices from criticizing X in any way shape or form? Yeah, some of us push back when we think you're wrong. But that is NOT the same as "no questioning or criticizing.
"


There's another one of your straw arguments, Bill--Where did I say anyone was preventing anyone else from doing or saying anything? Nowhere. You elevated what I said into something I did not say so that you could argue against it.


[Bill Davis] "Finally, cults do "cult stuff" to gain control and force others to subsume their individuality in service to the cult. Apple, having been a planetary leader in creating tools that EMPOWER individual expression is kinda the anti-cult, IMO. You and others keep coming back and bemoaning how they took away Legacy - that's kinda like willfully disbanding a cult right there, isnt' it? ; )
"


I think I'm going to mostly ignore the fact that right now you sound pretty much exactly like every other shaved-head disciple in defense of their glorious master, and simply point out another of your straw arguments--at one point, I certainly bemoaned the loss of 7, but it has been a very long time since I bemoaned it. I think I stopped bemoaning it at least 6 months ago. Probably longer. Only in your head am I still bemoaning it.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:54:41 pm

[Bill Davis] "OK then. Just because it's making my work go much faster, I'll pipe down. Who wants to hear about that kind of thing anyway when learning about a software tool."

Chris's specific reference was to Jerry Hoffman who in this thread posted the following:

"X is the fastest NLE in the world, period."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 9:12:41 pm

... Jerry Hofmann then appended later:

I'm not familiar with Adobe's latest stuff, ...

Franz.


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 7:56:17 pm

[Chris Harlan] " It just gets weird when folks make these majestic pronouncements about X, like it being faster than anything including cheetahs"

Cheetahs aren't very fast at editing at all, their hand to paw co-ordination is terrible.

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:05:01 pm

[Steve Connor] "Cheetahs aren't very fast at editing at all, their hand to paw co-ordination is terrible."

I think you meant paw to eye coordination.

If you were to try to coordinate your hand with a Cheetshs paw - methinks you'd not just lose, you'd bleed.

; )

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 9:39:04 pm

[Bill Davis] "I think you meant paw to eye coordination.
"


Thanks for the correction, it's been a long day

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 8:49:17 pm

[Steve Connor] "[Chris Harlan] " It just gets weird when folks make these majestic pronouncements about X, like it being faster than anything including cheetahs"

Cheetahs aren't very fast at editing at all, their hand to paw co-ordination is terrible.
"


See, Steve. You are always straight-forward. Even when it comes to cheetahs.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:10:28 am

But you want said audio to go in a certan place in the sequence, no?

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
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alban egger
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 6:17:32 am

we often layer 10 tracks of sfx, music dialogue that does NOT connect to the video - it's independent of the video ..so the statement "audio should always connect to video" simply doesn't exist in real life editing for documentaries and features.

Sorry Andy, but I don't understand this. How do you have audio not connected to video in a timeline? Every film/show/spot/doc starts somewhere and even has chapters. If you have audio that just flows beneath everything then at least the start of these chapters has to be your connection point.
And just like in other NLEs you can create a "track" - with either functions of a storyline or as a mere clip for something like an underlying - but not connected - sound or a logo/watermark-graphic that is composited over the whole film.

A lot of these "theoretical" issues are easily solved in practical use in FCPX.



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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 8:07:49 pm

[Shawn Miller] "What if most of your work involves bouncing to and from After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator? Would FCPX still be faster than every other NLE on the planet? Perhaps workflow and function should be taken into consideration here. :-)"

This: http://clipexporter.mindtransplant.com works really nicely.

Yes, you need to go to 3rd parties to do some stuff in X (Xto7, 7toX, EDL-X, XtoPro, ClipExporter etc) But I'd honestly rather have Apple spend all their time on the actual editing software, and provide hooks and let others spend their time on the "niche" workflow stuff. I too need this "niche" stuff, but I don't care if it it's built in to the app, as long as it works easily, which in my experience all these apps do.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 8:41:31 pm

[Charlie Austin] "This: http://clipexporter.mindtransplant.com works really nicely."

This doesn't seem nearly as fast as Premiere Pro's Dynamic Link to AE.

[Charlie Austin] "Yes, you need to go to 3rd parties to do some stuff in X (Xto7, 7toX, EDL-X, XtoPro, ClipExporter etc) But I'd honestly rather have Apple spend all their time on the actual editing software, and provide hooks and let others spend their time on the "niche" workflow stuff. I too need this "niche" stuff, but I don't care if it it's built in to the app, as long as it works easily, which in my experience all these apps do."

I don't have any objections to the way Apple chooses to provide functionality to FCPX users; third party, native support, either way works. My statement was in response to Jerry Hofmann's acertion that FCPX is the "fastest NLE in the world". I just don't believe you can dismiss the impact of workflow or technical requirements so easily. Can you ingest, tag/log, edit and output projects in FCPX faster than any NLE? Maybe... doesn't it depend on what else is involved in your workflow? Just asking.

Shawn



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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 8:54:58 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I don't have any objections to the way Apple chooses to provide functionality to FCPX users; third party, native support, either way works. My statement was in response to Jerry Hofmann's acertion that FCPX is the "fastest NLE in the world". I just don't believe you can dismiss the impact of workflow or technical requirements so easily. Can you ingest, tag/log, edit and output projects in FCPX faster than any NLE? Maybe... doesn't it depend on what else is involved in your workflow? Just asking."

No argument there... I do know that the clip exporter app is much better at getting sequence info into AE from FCPX than trying to do it from FCP7. But sure, premier probably is a better choice if you need to roundtrip to AE.

-------------------------------------------------------------


~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 9:39:37 pm

I don't say you should dismiss workflow considerations. I said it's still the fastest NLE (Non Linear Editor) in the world. Making a change in a middle of a scene or a change in the scene orders themselves is typically only one click away and instant. In a track based editor it would take so much more effort if clips are running under or over said edit change. In X, you tie any given frame of an audio clip to any given frame of any video clip and they stay locked until you change that relationship in this new timeline. That's fundamentally different than traditional timeline's behaviors, and turns out, a lot faster during the editorial process of changing everything under the sun over and over. Fewer moves makes for faster editing, or it makes for more trial and error time. Either way, it's better. But it is considerably faster during the process of edit decision making for anybody that seems to learn the app. I think it's likely the easiest app to learn if you bring no notions to the workflow you use in the timeline. there are direct comparisons to the structure of organizational features otherwise.

I want better ways to edit on the fily with FCP X. That is missing. There's lot's missing. But I'm not forgetting FCP 1 only did DV... so think of how much more X does from the first 'release'.

Giving up tracks gave us the ability to always link any audio and video layers to each other precisely on any given frame and sort of lock it that way. and at the same time, move it where we intend it to be no matter what I do lengthwise to any given clip in a sequence. The out of sync problem moves in a sequence have plagued NLE's forever, in that they took too much thinking from the editor, or not enough, but it has always been cumbersome comparatively.

Jerry


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Gary Huff
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 1:18:41 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "I don't say you should dismiss workflow considerations. I said it's still the fastest NLE (Non Linear Editor) in the world."

And I still say you are completely pushing a baseless assertion and that doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest.


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Gary Bettan
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 7, 2012 at 2:08:58 am

While waiting for my daughter to get her MacBook looked at by the Genius bar, I started playing around with FCPX on the MBP Retina. HOLY SMOKES! This thing flew. It was loaded up with some really great car racing footage and I just had a blast messing around with it. Handled fantastic, I found the display very easy to see and use even with my 49 year old eyes w/o glasses.

FCPX is not for everyone, but FCPX on MBP Retina is very impressive indeed. Apple's just gonna keep making it better. I wish they could have had Adoobe CS6 and Avid on it as well. I'm sure they both also work great and deliver outstanding performance. The MBP w. Retina is on the top of my wish list ;-)

On another note, I just updated the NLE Storage FAQ on the Videoguys website. SSD prices have fallen and we recommend going with an 256 or 512GB SSD. I'm a fan of the Crucial M series. You can check out the update here http://www.videoguys.com/Blog/E/Videoguys+NLE+Video+Storage+FAQ+Aug+2012+up...

If you've got an older Mac Pro or Mac Book, adding more RAM, an SSD boot drive and updated GPU can give new life and performance to it.

Gary

COW members get 5% OFF with Coupon COW5OFF

http://www.videoguys.com 800 323-2325 | We are the video editing and production experts!


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Eric Santiago
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 5:00:23 am

[Shawn Miller] "This doesn't seem nearly as fast as Premiere Pro's Dynamic Link to AE."
Sure but isnt it sad that it took Adobe this long to get that to actually work?
I mean Ive been doing the freakin round trip from Premiere to After Effects even before Premiere was removed from the Mac and now this becomes a sexy thing to have?
Sorry but that doesnt cut it for the ones that actually had to deal with it since the COSA days :P
Most real pro's would have had to figure out their own round-tripping with other NLE's way before Adobe "finally" got it "somewhat" right :P


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 6:13:31 am

[Shawn Miller] "This doesn't seem nearly as fast as Premiere Pro's Dynamic Link to AE."

[Eric Santiago] "Sure but isnt it sad that it took Adobe this long to get that to actually work?"

We could turn this around. Isn't it sad that Apple used to have round-tripping between FCP and Motion, and now they don't? Or isn't sad that FCPX doesn't do range-based exporting, so a workaround or third-party app is necessary even for simple things like getting one clip out of an edit to effects and back?

Shawn is absolutely right to bring up the fact that different NLEs, with their different strengths and weaknesses, may be better suited in different workflows.


[Eric Santiago] "I mean Ive been doing the freakin round trip from Premiere to After Effects even before Premiere was removed from the Mac and now this becomes a sexy thing to have? Sorry but that doesnt cut it for the ones that actually had to deal with it since the COSA days :P Most real pro's would have had to figure out their own round-tripping with other NLE's way before Adobe "finally" got it "somewhat" right :P"

Eric, have you used Dynamic Link on CS6? We have had to round-trip via intermediate renders as long as NLEs and effects packages have existed, and Dynamic Link is a pretty clever solution to this long-standing problem.

Innovative ideas and iterative improvement come out of San Jose, San Rafael, Tewksbury, and Cupertino alike.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Eric Santiago
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:51:30 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Eric, have you used Dynamic Link on CS6? We have had to round-trip via intermediate renders as long as NLEs and effects packages have existed, and Dynamic Link is a pretty clever solution to this long-standing problem."

Yes Ive had to use it...once...assuming I use Premiere Pro for deep projects but I dont.
Just throwing that in due to comments about what apps can do which and has nothing to do with the topic got me riled up.
I know Dynamic Link works since Ive had to witness others use it and have had the pleasure of working in After Effects with it.
But again I dont use PPro religiously since we're Avid/FCPX centric.
Now I hope that explains why I didnt place Motion in my post :)
Plus the fact that Ive never had to export a portion from FCPX Project but I know that I can just dupe a project > compound it > blade it > then share it ;)


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: FCPX on MBP Retina Display - WOW
on Aug 5, 2012 at 8:43:20 pm

Not that it can't be done. It can. But not without going through hoops until adobe reads X's XML I'd guess. I don't use AE. If I can't do it in Apple's sofware I go to an effects artist who doesn't edit. You can nearly always export and import movies between any app.

X is the only NLE software in the world that is written in OS X native code BTW, so is the only modern Mac NLE sofware out there. The other guys have to catch up in from any perspective on that front. That gives Apple a unique position.

You'd be faster working in Motion 5 if you could use it today with X. It's a new app from 4.5 too. But closer because it was already Cocoa. Publishing is especially forward thinking with it and X.

Currently, it's best workflow for what many would use AE for. But not everyone obviously. I would think that if you have use AE, you'll have great results using Premiere, in that it passes XML precisely?

I'd also submit that this issue will deminish faster than not. Third parties all over this. Phil and Greg at Int. Asst. for starters. They did what Apple stated was impossible.

It comes down to what gets the results you want the fastest way possible for the task at hand balancing a workflow. The gaol may be to give more time to serious trial and error. Or to simply render and deliver faster. Your workflow should be determined by this factor somewhat, and the rest is personal preference, which takes a serious backseat.

Learning them all is what anybody could profit from I'll wager. LOL.

Jerry


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