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Erik Lindahl
OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 11:03:42 am

Looking at WWDC-sessions, OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX is now fully color managed. In OSX 10.8 you can also use Automator to tagg video-files with proper ICC-profiles.

A bright future ahead it seems. If things actually works that is...

If revealing the above goes against apples developer policy I apologize.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 4:51:47 pm

Nice! Really good to see the player itself becoming more CM-aware.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Erik Lindahl
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 5:49:08 pm

There are still some oddities. Rendering a clip out of After Effects CS6 on a OSX 10.8 machine give the following results:

No color management used
- QTX displays the file way off the target (AE).
- VLC displays the file relatively close to the target (AE).

Using REC 709 as our working space
- QTX displays the file relatively close to the target (AE).
- VLC displays the file way off the target (AE).

I also tried working in REC 709 16-235 as someone recommended in another, given older, thread. This just made the file less accurate in both QTX and VLC (QTX was closer yet lacked a lot of "umph" in the picture).

The below are samples from a 1920x1080 test-project done in After Effects CS6 v11.0.1. It's a simple logo animation with a clear GREY, GREEN and RED area. I used Apples Digital Color Meter application to measure the pixel values.

Working in REC 709 the colors from application to application is as follows:

DARK GREY
AE: 89 89 89
QT: 99 99 99
VLC: 87 88 87

GREEN
AE: 90 155 75
QT: 95 165 84
VLC: 16 155 64

RED
AE: 180 30 39
QT: 185 31 40
VLC: 208 25 32

I don't understand why this has to be such a huge problem. Consistency between After Effects and Photoshop isn't a problem but consistency with-in the OS really seems to be still. VLC is completely FUBAR when working with the REC 709 profile which I'd imagine is what a lot of people working in HD would want to do.

Working in Adobe RGB the colors from application to application is as follows:

DARK GREY
AE: 89 89 89
QT: 99 99 99
VLC: 87 88 87

GREEN
AE: 90 155 75
QT: 123 164 90
VLC: 87 155 73

RED
AE: 180 30 39
QT: 161 39 43
VLC: 178 30 35

VLC is much more accurate now, almost dead-on what's seen in After Effects. QTX however falls short here.

Last but not least working in sRGB, something Apple recommends for amongst other things - iOS media:

DARK GREY
AE: 89 89 89
QT: 99 99 99
VLC: 87 88 87

GREEN
AE: 90 155 75
QT: 95 165 84
VLC: 18 157 65

RED
AE: 180 30 39
QT: 183 32 40
VLC: 208 25 31

QTX is close again. VLC completely destroys the media once again.

QTX is consistant in how "wrong" it handles the grey's (or possibly gamma). It's always a notch brighter than what the original in AE is like. Tagging the file via automator as an RGB-file the grey-value is actually dead on, but the color value run rampage in the wrong direction.

What does one do to sort this out?


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Bret Williams
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 6:11:34 pm

Maybe I don't get this. The colors should be constant. It's just the ColorSpace they're being displayed in that is changing them. IOW REC 709 should be altering the gamma and color curves to show how that image looks on a properly calibrated video monitor, right?

I would assume that exporting a freeze from QT and opening it in something like ps and sampling in there should reveal the same color values as AE, minus a little change from any compression that occured.

But still none of it matters. What matters, and what has to be the constant, is a properly calibrated video monitor. Not a TV, not a computer monitor. Ditto with print. All the color management in the world and and it might still be different on a certain card stock, etc.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 6:24:33 pm

"The colors should be constant"
Agree and they are not between After Effects, QTX and VLC.

"REC 709 should be altering the gamma and color curves to show how that image looks on a properly calibrated video monitor, right?"
Agree, but the look differs between the above three apps. AE and QTX should both be color managed, VLC I haven't found any proper information on.

"I would assume that exporting a freeze from QT and opening it in something like ps and sampling in there should reveal the same color values as AE, minus a little change from any compression that occured."
Re-importing the exported file in AE shows identicle color values, yes. But this doesn't really solve the problem of consistant video display in the system.

"But still none of it matters. What matters, and what has to be the constant, is a properly calibrated video monitor."
I very much disagree. I'd say consistent colors across applications is extremely important.

1. Content creation
2. Content distribution

Point 1 is a given. If I jump from After Effects to Final Cut Pro X to Premier to Flame, things should look the same - look consistent much in the way I can jump from Photoshop to After Effects.

With the ever growing source of digital distribution - NetFlix, iTunes, iOS content consumtion, YouTube, Vimeo - you name it - having consistent output is vital. Say you've graded everything against your $20,000 Sony LED reference display and want to output it for these channels. Then what?

For print there is a similar situation but they've had ICC-proofing since the late 90's and it works. You soft-proof in Photoshop and correct your output against what "should come out of the printer". You do a test-print to validate things and you're good to go.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 6:26:06 pm

[Bret Williams] "Maybe I don't get this. The colors should be constant. It's just the ColorSpace they're being displayed in that is changing them. IOW REC 709 should be altering the gamma and color curves to show how that image looks on a properly calibrated video monitor, right?"

Different color spaces may use different RGB values to represent the same color, and they may use the same RGB values to represent different colors. The same color may have different RGB values in Adobe RGB and Rec. 709, and the same RGB values in Adobe RGB and Rec. 709 may produce different colors.

The purpose of color management is to translate your intended color from one color space to another as accurately as possible.


[Bret Williams] "I would assume that exporting a freeze from QT and opening it in something like ps and sampling in there should reveal the same color values as AE, minus a little change from any compression that occured."

Not necessarily. AE's color picker should be showing RGB values from AE's working space, which may be defined separately from its output profile. I'm not sure how the system color picker works in conjunction with ColorSync -- if it's showing the RGB values in their native color space (before display management) or in the display's color space.


[Bret Williams] "But still none of it matters. What matters, and what has to be the constant, is a properly calibrated video monitor. Not a TV, not a computer monitor. Ditto with print. All the color management in the world and and it might still be different on a certain card stock, etc."

If you have a good computer monitor and if it is accurately profiled, and if you have a good end-to-end color managed workflow, then you can use it to simulate the output of a calibrated Rec. 709 video monitor and you can trust the colors. If your monitor is lousy or if you haven't profiled it, then color management can't do its job and you will not get accurate or predictable colors from your display, so you won't be able to simulate other devices or profiles.

In the print world, you can profile specific inks on specific stocks, and with color management, you can simulate this on your display. If you change inks or stock (or both), of course you would need to use a different profile for simulation.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 6:29:07 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "QTX is close again. VLC completely destroys the media once again. QTX is consistant in how "wrong" it handles the grey's (or possibly gamma). It's always a notch brighter than what the original in AE is like. Tagging the file via automator as an RGB-file the grey-value is actually dead on, but the color value run rampage in the wrong direction. What does one do to sort this out?"

I don't think VLC is color-managed (though I am quite surprised to see that it looks closer with Adobe RGB than Rec. 709 or sRGB).

Desktop playback is a constant pain in color-managed workflows.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 6:46:48 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I don't think VLC is color-managed"

I can confirm VLC is not yet color-managed:

http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=61142&sid=704ea329c7b2c5c6ddb...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 6:46:28 pm

This is all well-and-good, but it only matters in so far as someone else viewing your content using QT X on a Mac with a similar display. It won't be accurate for other media players, PCs, other displays or broadcast video. I find FCP X closer than FCP 7, but for my concern - video - I get a closer representation within the GUI using Premiere Pro to what I see on a broadcast monitor, than what I see in FCP X. And Premiere Pro supposedly isn't using color management (I think).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Erik Lindahl
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 6:51:30 pm

It's a head-ache! I would love to recommend clients "view this file in application X or it will look like something your dog barfed up". But now I really can't… Given the above tests I don't have a reference monitor at home so I can't say if perhaps VLC actually looks more like a "proper" REC 709 in one of the above cases, the inconsistency, especially between QTX and VLC on the same Mac is very discouraging.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 7:56:53 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "It's a head-ache! I would love to recommend clients "view this file in application X"

As far as consistency for review and approval, I've had good luck with Compressor's H264 and then posting that to Vimeo. Tends to look consistent. If I know clients are using iPhones and iPads, I send them the video in one of Compressor's iPhone/iPad presets. I also find WMV and MP4 encoding is often less subject to gamma shifts. If I know my clients are on PCs, they get WMV files. If I need it to be generic than using MPEG Streamclip for MP4 (MPEG4) gives you good results.

If you really want to get specific and accurate, use WebM (encoded with Squeeze) and have them view it in Chrome (the browser).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 7:04:41 pm

[Oliver Peters] "This is all well-and-good, but it only matters in so far as someone else viewing your content using QT X on a Mac with a similar display."

IF QTX is now fully color-managed, then it should be accurate for anyone using it, regardless of display (IF that display is profiled).

Practically speaking, no one profiles their displays themselves. However, if Apple ships new computers with decent preloaded profiles and color-managed software, this problem will eventually diminish on the Mac platform.


[Oliver Peters] " And Premiere Pro supposedly isn't using color management (I think)."

True.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 7:29:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "However, if Apple ships new computers with decent preloaded profiles and color-managed software, this problem will eventually diminish on the Mac platform."

Still less than 10% of your potential customer base. The greater concern will likely be how it looks on a tablet/phone from Vimeo or YouTube. ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 7:33:31 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Still less than 10% of your potential customer base. The greater concern will likely be how it looks on a tablet/phone from Vimeo or YouTube. ;-)"

Way more than 10%, if Apple also carries some kind of color management over to the iPad and iPhone.

This is one of the places where Apple's end-to-end control of their products could really shine.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 7:47:28 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Way more than 10%, if Apple also carries some kind of color management over to the iPad and iPhone."

Except most clients aren't handed the video directly from you to their device. The web (and possibly other conversions) are in-between. So I have little or no faith that this type of color management would be effective. I suspect we'll still be plagued by gamma shifts for decades to come.

Now magnify the issue by people watching TV shows via Hulu, Roku, Apple TV, etc. - using the internet as the transmission conduit - but watching on consumer LCDs and plasmas ("TV sets"). So it leads me to just end up saying "don't sweat the details" when it comes to color. It's never right at the other end. I can only hope that it's reasonably close ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 8:03:00 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Except most clients aren't handed the video directly from you to their device. The web (and possibly other conversions) are in-between. So I have little or no faith that this type of color management would be effective. I suspect we'll still be plagued by gamma shifts for decades to come."

All great points. Everyone has to do a little bit of work to make it work -- but color management is not sexy, so it won't happen.

Again, though, Apple does own some distribution with iTunes and iCloud, so if they wanted to, they could make it happen within their ecosystem. Of course, they've had ColorSync for almost 20 years now and have not even considered using it for video until FCPX launched a year ago.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Erik Lindahl
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 8:29:59 pm

Well it's one thing with color management locally, and another if I'm looking at a complete producer > transmitter > reciver workflow. Let's focus on what CAN be done - local color consistency! :-)


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David Lawrence
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 1, 2012 at 7:47:34 am

[Oliver Peters] "So it leads me to just end up saying "don't sweat the details" when it comes to color. It's never right at the other end. I can only hope that it's reasonably close ;-)"

Boy do you have that right!

This just happened to me on the project I finished yesterday. It's an art video with a very specific color palette. The artist and I carefully tuned the colors on my computer monitor, but when we played the finished piece on the 46'" displays that will go in the gallery, there was this one very deep purple that looked blue. This was a critical color in the artwork and it really *had* to be purple. The remote gave us options of different white points but the white point that made it purple enough made the white too yellow.

In the end, I went back and tweaked the purple in the video after testing some screen grabs on the display to make sure it was exactly right. We wound up making two video files. One is graded for the monitors in the gallery, the other is graded for computer displays, Youtube, etc. The artist is very happy.

There's just too many variables beyond control on the end-user side. All it takes is one button on the TV remote to totally mess a carefully planned color scheme. "Don't sweat it" is about the only thing guaranteed to work every time! ;)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Oliver Peters
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 1, 2012 at 1:20:05 pm

[David Lawrence] "This just happened to me on the project I finished yesterday. It's an art video with a very specific color palette. "

I've done a lot of themed attraction projects (museums, theme parks, kiosks, special venues) over the years. In almost all cases, the final audio mix is done on-site so that the mix is specific and conforms to that space. The reason DI color grading for feature films is done in a certified projection environment - and the audio mix is done in a properly designed dubbing stage - is precisely because you are monitoring in the same environment that matches movie theater design. Unfortunately in the consumer world, there's no guarantee this will be the same. The last time I delivered art for a print ad, the company doing the prepress asked for not only the TIFF file, but also a print-out on paper that reflected the colors the way the ad should appear.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 2, 2012 at 2:26:18 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I've done a lot of themed attraction projects (museums, theme parks, kiosks, special venues) over the years. In almost all cases, the final audio mix is done on-site so that the mix is specific and conforms to that space."

I've done final color this way, too -- in the space, with the lighting in place.

For an install, I recently used a color-managed workflow on the front end, tweaked the color in the space, then built a LUT based on those tweaks to apply to subsequent content.


[Oliver Peters] "Unfortunately in the consumer world, there's no guarantee this will be the same. "

The painful truth.



[Oliver Peters] "The last time I delivered art for a print ad, the company doing the prepress asked for not only the TIFF file, but also a print-out on paper that reflected the colors the way the ad should appear."

This is exactly the sort of problem that color management and soft-proofing was meant to eliminate. I guess that printers can no longer assume that production is happening in a color-managed environment and try to spot-check colors off presumably unmanaged print outs to cover themselves?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 2, 2012 at 4:42:33 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Oliver Peters] "Unfortunately in the consumer world, there's no guarantee this will be the same. "

The painful truth."


We need to come up with a clever sRGB initialism for the digital era like Never The Same Color (NTSC) as clearly, the variables remain in a digital age. I'll start.



standard Recommended Gamut Blunders

still Receiving Gamma Bollocks


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Walter Soyka
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 2, 2012 at 4:54:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We need to come up with a clever sRGB initialism for the digital era like Never The Same Color (NTSC) as clearly, the variables remain in a digital age. I'll start.

standard Recommended Gamut Blunders

still Receiving Gamma Bollocks"


Brilliant! How about sometimes Renders Get Broken?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Erik Lindahl
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Jul 31, 2012 at 8:25:47 pm

"Way more than 10%, if Apple also carries some kind of color management over to the iPad and iPhone."

iOS is color managed. Everything sent to the platform is tagged with an sRGB profile. iOS however isn't doing "active" color management like OSX for performance reasons. Also, each iOS device has a given display so coloraccuracy should be "good enough". Using features like AirPlay things get messier as you'll be sending a stream to a device with a lot of settings (i.e your TV). Still Apple can keep this managed with an input of sRGB and supposedly a REC 709 output.

For us at work it's 50/50 what format is preferred. Clients have in general used Windows, where the agency has Macs. iOS and other smartphones are shifting us more and more away from MPEG1 and WMV. Still, color consistancy is a problem that should be fixed.

Odd Premier Pro isn't color managed when all other apps in their suite more or less are.


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olof ekbergh
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 1, 2012 at 11:28:21 am

Unless every monitor in the world has a device like the Spyder calibrator permanently installed color reproduction will always be a problem. I guarantee this will never happen.

I make a lot of video Kiosks, and I always buy the monitor that will be used in the kiosk, and then simulate the light conditions the kiosk will be in my suite. I set the monitor to factory defaults and after finishing the content I do a CC pass using the actual monitor as well as my reference monitor. I actually have the kiosk monitor hooked up the whole time editing. This way I come as close as possible to match a clients pantone colors in the logo or whatever.

If you can't have this much control then use a pro reference monitor, that is all you can really do. I use both Matrox and several AJA interfaces in my suites. To play the kiosks I use BM's Hypershuttles these days. To many problems with BluRays, Pioneer still makes a really good industrial duty SD DVD player, but all the Blurays I have tried burn out quickly and the discs go bad fast as well, heat is the problem I believe.

Olof Ekbergh


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Christian Schumacher
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 2, 2012 at 6:58:26 pm

Interesting...As a side note, has anyone noticed that in Lion you can encode directly from the Finder using the "right click/services/encode selected files" command? There are not many picks to choose from, but it's useful nonetheless. And to stay on-topic, there's even an error message that mentions color management. So, has ML expanded that somehow? BTW, this "error" cancels the encoding process.



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Erik Lindahl
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 2, 2012 at 7:21:02 pm

I noticed the right-click convert in 10.8, quite useful for both images and video.


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Tapio Haaja
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 4, 2012 at 6:55:32 pm

Color management in FCPX is a great thing but at least for me it has led to more problems because FCPX is the first program that actually reads colorspace (HD709, PAL/NTSC 601) tags in Prores files and makes color conversion based on those. Ans it seems that only Apple software currently tags Prores files correctly. So if you bring for example SD Prores files from After Effects, Premiere, Episode... You notice in FCPX that those files are tagged with HD709 colorspace and colors get little bit shifted.

I think FCPX assumes if there's no colorspace tag, colors are in HD709 color space. So if you are currently trying to build color accurate workflow for example between Adobe suite and FCPX it's impossible because Adobe's programs doesn't tag color space to Prores files. Not even when you have color management turned on in After Effects.

Best
Tapio Haaja

On-Air Promotion Producer
http://avseikkailuja.blogspot.com/


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Oliver Peters
Re: OSX 10.8 + QTX + FCPX fully color managed
on Aug 4, 2012 at 7:09:10 pm

[Tapio Haaja] "I think FCPX assumes if there's no colorspace tag, colors are in HD709 color space. So if you are currently trying to build color accurate workflow for example between Adobe suite and FCPX it's impossible because Adobe's programs doesn't tag color space to Prores files. Not even when you have color management turned on in After Effects."

This has been a persistent problem with Apple and it's based on how QT handles these things. I guess the same issues were carried through with X. Apple's official position (this was told to me directly by an Apple manager when I complained about it) that Apple has published profile specs for others to follow. If a company assigns the wrong profile or no profile at all, then Apple cannot be responsible for the result.

In the absence of a profile, Apple assigns the assumed profile, which can often lead to the wrong results. In the past, I could not get the correct appearance out of PNG files generated by a PC when imported into FCP 7. I had to wash them through GraphicConverter and turn them into BMPs before FCP 7 would give me correct results. Even though the same PNG files on the same machine were correct in Avid Media Composer and all Adobe apps.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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