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Apple - we need a roadmap

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Steve Connor
Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 8:37:44 pm

Apple, you're probably not reading this forum by now as you've probably got a good idea about what most people think and I know you don't do roadmaps, but now would be a good time to start, before a large chunk of your userbase disappear. At least get the Product Manager out there doing some interviews.

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Chad Haberstroh
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 8:59:39 pm

I started a similar thread over at the apple forum yesterday and it was almost immediately deleted.

So yeah, I don't think they're taking too kindly to being told how to run their business...


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Stefan Buhrmester
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 9:00:02 pm

+1


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Eugene Lehnert
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 9:00:09 pm

I agree. Lightworks has a roadmap on their site:

http://www.lightworksbeta.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=...

I could edit DPX files with Lightworks too. I could put it on the same computer as our Smoke and have an offline/online system. If Adobe could port their creative suite over to Linux I may not even have to use OS X. Then I could even switch over to the Droid.



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Buddy Couch
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 9:02:59 pm

They really should have named this Final Cut Digital Pro X. So all of the 1980's tape users wouldn't have had a creativecow (no pun intended). I do not mean any disrespect, but was discussing this situation with an editor I know. He has worked in television and such and ask me "who still uses tapes?". He now works with HDSLR work flow.

Digital is where its at...even hollywood is understanding this now. Seriously though just for my knowledge, why not Solid state drive system like Red? It can't be cost, because even at 19 grand they do not cost what your typical news crew camera runs. I believe those are around 70k, or used to be. Not to mention they film 5k.

PS Do not take my sarcasm as an insult, I am just having some fun with the negative nancys on here.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 9:15:32 pm

Buddy -

Anyone who says things like "Digital is where its at" doesn't have the ability to insult anyone, so no offense taken.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Eugene Lehnert
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 9:22:02 pm

How do you archive products produced from file-based workflows? On tape. Sure in ten years we might have some awesome solid-state devices that will last 20 years or more but right now that doesn't exist. The reality is that I capture and lay to HDCAMSR on a daily basis. I can't use this software at my job.



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Buddy Couch
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 9:37:22 pm

If I was archiving that amount of work, then sure tape is a good option. I personally do hard drives myself. When they are full I transfer projects to blue ray.

Buddy


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Chris Conlee
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:33:19 am

Fox, NBC, ABC, and Warner Brothers won't accept hard drives for delivery. Tape still rules the day, and that's a fact. Part of the delivery requirements for each show are full OMF/AAFs, EDLs, lined script, Tape, etc. Lots of things this new application doesn't do.

Chris


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Matthew Sonnenfeld
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 9:42:56 pm

[Buddy Couch] "Digital is where its at...even hollywood is understanding this now."

You forget, HDCAM/SR tape IS digital. And you're right, Hollywood is understanding this now and that's why a lot has been/will be/is being shot on digital HDCAM/SR tape. But you can't get an HDCAM/SR deck into the system. So, goodbye HDCAM/SR users.

[Buddy Couch] "Seriously though just for my knowledge, why not Solid state drive system like Red?"

Maybe if FCPX did in indeed accept RED footage, your argument might hold water. In its current state, FCPX does not accept RED or Alexa footage that is not in ProRes.

[Buddy Couch] "PS Do not take my sarcasm as an insult, I am just having some fun with the negative nancys on here."

A lot of people spent money on a product from a company that told them over and over again that it would be a massive step forward, that would vastly improve their field. A lot of people feel like they have been deceived.

I personally have not bought FCPX and have decided not to for now. Eventually I will probably move to Premier CS5.5. Until then I will happily continue to work in FCP7.

Panasonic HPX170 P
2008 Unibody Macbook Pro 15 inch, 2.8 Ghz, 4GB RAM
CalDigit VR
Final Cut Pro Studio 3
Avid Media Composer
The College of WIlliam and Mary


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Buddy Couch
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:08:10 pm

I should have been more specific. Tapeless digital. I do concur though, that is a major problem if they do not import Red footage.

I bought it and it works with my HDSLR workflow. I do want multi cam to be added though.

Can you not use quicktime wrapper to pro res?

I composite more than I edit and I thank you for enlightening me.


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james carey
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 9:52:56 pm

No disrespect intended, but professional editors have known, and welcomed, all aspects of digtial post production for years. And we don't need to discuss this with an editor we know, as we are quite capable of deciding for ourselves whether iMovie Pro works for us. Lack of tape support is almost the least of the problems we find with this new product. I think i speak for a lot of professionals when I say Apple has insulted us. For years we advocated for FCP, at times having to convince clients it was indeed as good a professional tool as Avid. But that's over, I personally would be ashamed to have a client see me struggling with the iMovie like interface, or having to explain i can't export an EDL, or lay off to tape, send to a proper color correction program, and the list goes on.
I will continue using FCP7 until either Apple sees the error of its ways and upgrades FCP X to a truly professional tool, or when FCP7 is no longer useful, find another system to work on.

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment


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Buddy Couch
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:17:45 pm

None taken. I didn't have to discuss anything with my friend. It was casual conversation about the complaints being lodged against FCPX. You just made my point that I posted earlier. Why would you struggle with an interface that you understood. I wouldn't take a software package in front of a client that I had used for 2 days either.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:40:30 pm

buddy - you're defending a bombsite, you're literally waving in front of the inferno saying nothing to see here.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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james carey
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:59:35 pm

you misunderstood me Buddy, when I say "struggle with the interface," I mean try to get the tool to work in a professional manner, like say, exporting an EDL or send a timeline to Color for grading, or exporting an OMF to my audio mixer for a 5.1 finish. jeez.

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Buddy Couch
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 11:27:00 pm

I gotcha :). I do agree 100 percent that it does not look professional, or feel pro like FCP7. It was actually first thing I said when i installed it, man this looks like Imovie.

Buddy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:10:51 pm

[Buddy Couch] "I do not mean any disrespect, but was discussing this situation with an editor I know. He has worked in television and such and ask me "who still uses tapes?". He now works with HDSLR work flow."

Clearly you discussed this with an offline editor.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:31:10 pm

[Buddy Couch] "but was discussing this situation with an editor I know. He has worked in television and such and ask me "who still uses tapes?". He now works with HDSLR work flow."

Are you for real?
Maybe you haven't caught on but you have been talking to numerous television and film editors since you joined.
I personally have archive material on quad, 1", 3/4, SX, SP and HDV.
HD's and burnable media does not have an infinite life, and are not a viable archive solution.
As far as tape vs SS acquisition, both have their pro's and con's which have been discussed at length in numerous forums, and is actually a different subject than archival.
IMO using a DSLR and/or shooting tapeless doesn't make you a bad-a$$, or the next Jordan Cronenweth.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

I have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed...

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair


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Monica F.P.Williams
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 23, 2011 at 2:46:44 am

Amen, Scott!

Monica F.P.williams
crocodile editing
web: http://www.crocodileediting.com


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Russell Lasson
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:37:42 pm

Totally correct. If we don't see important updates or start hearing from Apple soon, then we're going to have to start moving on. I'm not going to wait for years hoping that they fix stuff in the next major update. I also disagree with some of the basic structures of the media backbone that I don't know if they can fix. Would love to see Apple get it together, but so far it doesn't look good.

Speak Apple! Speak up! Say you love us! Say you care or this thing is over!

:)

Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net


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Adam Duplay
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:52:11 pm

I keep hearing this "1980's tape users" concept, which bothers me.

Every pro shop where I have worked delivers tape as a master output to the Network in 2011... from SPEED channel programing to American Idol... all delivered on Closed Captioned, 8 Channel Audio, tape (D5 or SR).

I understand that :30 second spots are increasing delivered digitally, as are wedding videos, but the major reason pros are crying foul on this update is the lack of features that pros use and wedding videographers do not (ie - XML, RS422, OMF, etc)

Also, I am not disparaging wedding videographers; they are also professionals and I respect entrepreneurs.

My point is... it looks like we are going back to a 2 tiered system. Broadcast on AVID.. "videos" on FCP. I think this was understood by apple, and was their intention.


Adam

Adam Duplay


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james carey
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 22, 2011 at 11:04:46 pm

Adam, you had me at "as are wedding videos" - well said.

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Craig Wall
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 23, 2011 at 12:48:19 am

Russel Lasson:

"Speak Apple! Speak up! Say you love us! Say you care or this thing is over!"


I'd say Apple has spoken quite loudly and clearly. We just don't like what Apple is saying!

Look at the feature set and philosophy of this application. Consider both the features present and the features absent and regard that as a state of the union address. Apple is giving us one more manifesto regarding their corporate direction. They are conceding the high end video market in favor of reaching a wider audience. And while I don't like it I have to concede that it's a good business decision for them.

We are more likely to see Apple start selling televisions than we are to see them transform FCP X into a tool for industrial video production. Jobs doesn't believe in trying to be all things to all markets. He believes in narrowing the company's focus. And Apple's focus is mainstream consumers.

As someone posted in another thread: I can't help but wonder if the Mac Pro will be the next product to vanish or be redefined away from the high-end market.

John Gruber at DaringFireball.com almost seems to be Steve Job's kin, and the man says ultimately there are only two macs: the MacBook Air and the iMac. Think about it.

Forget the name of the software, it only clouds the real issue. iMovie Pro was just birthed. Final Cut Pro has died. And all the stages of grieving are apparent in this forum.

Life is full of funny particles.


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Brad Bussé
Re: Apple - we need a roadmap
on Jun 23, 2011 at 12:54:32 am

Absolutely. In one of the other threads, I said that I'm waiting a couple of months to let the dust settle and see what Apple's response is. If they stay closed lipped without any definitive list of which missing pro features will be added and by when, I'll have to assume that they're treating FCP in a similar fashion as they did with Shake. I can't be led along for 3 or 4 years with Apple not squashing Phenomenon rumors, before they finally kill it off.

Honestly, Apple, don't forget that a lot of your consumer profits were built on the back of your reputation of being the company for digital creative professionals. Losing your FCP community will definitely harm your cool-factor reputation. We all know that Livetype and Photo Booth are trinkets for consumers, which have limited coolness since they're based on novelty which wears out once the end user has used it a few times. Losing the FCP community will also severely impact your ability to continue pushing your choice of formats like .m4v and HTML 5 over Flash, Open CL over CUDA, etc. I generally prefer Apple's choices since they offer better quality and/or open source access as an industry standard.

All that said, most post houses have been waiting on a next-gen NLE platform which is pro-ready out the gate, for well over 2 years. FCP X 1.0 is not it, and judging from the responses on this forum, many users don't have the patience that I have in waiting it out a couple of months. I believe that you need to move FAST in responding to the community, or it will be too late.


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