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Thoughts from the departed?

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Steve Connor
Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 24, 2012 at 8:55:13 pm

I can't help noticing that quite a few people who posted regularly a few months ago are conspicuous by their absence. If you haven't posted for a while I'm sure we'd be interested to see how some of you are getting on in this brave new world.

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Daniel Frome
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 24, 2012 at 10:18:04 pm

Went full on with Avid. Flirting with Ppro. Still sticking to the Mac platform for now.


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Dave Jenkins
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 24, 2012 at 10:57:56 pm

Still on FCP 7, testing Premiere CS 6, not sure about Premiere It just doesn't seem to be where FCP 7 is now as a basic editor. Markers don't move with edits, things like that. It does have some great features.
Waiting for FCPX to mature.

Dajen Productions, Santa Barbara, CA
MacPro Two 2.8GHz Quad Core - AJA Kona LHe
FCS 3 OS X 10.6 QT 10


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joe mordecai
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 24, 2012 at 11:39:57 pm

i haven't really posted much at all, but over the past year I've been learning Avid, picking at Premiere Pro, but sticking with FCP 7 and waiting for X to mature, to be honest.. I've downloaded the trial, watched Abba Shapiro's tutorials on Lynda, and used it solid for a month... I think it's great, frankly. But I'm still waiting for that golden 10.0.6 or 10.1 update to make my investment. I want X to be my primary, but I want to make sure my Avid skills are somewhat developed, even though it's hard to re-appropriate the 10+ years of FCP skills I have into one year of playing with Avid.

In fact, in my searching for new video gigs in the NYC/Boston area, the predominant platform still seems to be FCP7. It's got a lot of trust, and I think a lot of places (and some I've talked to) are holding strong with it until X gets to the right place (and to many, it's already in that sweet spot). Some folks aren't really in a rush to switch to anything. It's hard to beat a $299 (or, $399) price point. I think by virtue of a love of the OSX platform and the price... everyone WANTS to make it work. My 0.02 USD.


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Baz Leffler
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 24, 2012 at 11:59:53 pm

We have all 4 software's in my shop (have to cater for those 'walk-in-the-doorer's) but a surprising benefit I have discovered is that we are getting a lot of Avid 'dry hires' which rarely happened with FCP7.
I prefer FCP7 because I am not up to speed yet with Avid but I am just going to have to jump in the deep end eventually.

I suppose it would have been better if FCP7 had just shut down completely and forced me somewhere else.

Why is it that most licenses expire eg driver license, pilots license etc but not a software license..... weird....

(do marriage licenses expire?)


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Michael Gissing
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 12:18:20 am

I am not doing anything for a few more months as I have too many jobs in progress or booked that are FCP7 origination and also point updates of both CS6 and Smoke will be sure to come before stable happy software is available.

Still on FCS 3 and more convinced that after a year FCPX will not be suitable as a finishing tool and that I will only need to occassionally support it as an XML format. There seem to be so many desgn concepts that are aimed at a tool for the solo op non broadcast short program maker. Although it can now be used in more collaborative workflows, most local editors have shunned it.

CS6 is the strongest candidate to suit the local market where editors feed me work to finish picture & sound. Fairlight remains the best audio finish tool and the combination of Pr and AE seems to be the best balance for picture finishing that still has to go out to HDCam & digi beta. Going to build a WIN screamer and just keep the MacPro frozen with a working FCS3. The move by Apple to smaller Tbolt machines makes me nervous about Smoke which is also not necessarily the right machine for long form doco finishing and I don't do high end compositing TVCs. If they port to WIN 7 then worth considering.

Most local editors are not moving from FCP7 for a long while and when cameras and codecs force them to change the most likely tool is CS6. There are a few AVID MC6 editors so when AVID sort the export to da Vinci I will add da Vinci to the mix. Speedgrade is also of interest but I have no problems with round tripping to da Vinci a la Color which is still my primary grade tool. I expect da Vinci to take over as my primary grade tool in the next few months.


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Shane Ross
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 12:45:03 am

I've moved on. Not considering FCX for anything at the moment. Other options better suit my needs.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Davidson
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 2:43:47 am

We just delivered our final FCP7 project (knock on wood) yesterday and have been working with a variety of networks on FCPX for six weeks. We have people key wording lots of episodes of shows so editing goes MUCH faster now. We only deliver sub masters and completed string outs via tape or digital delivery (prores), so the NLE we use doesn't matter to clients.

Any time we have a frustrating moment where we don't know how to do something, we remember our old friends "General Error", "Out of Memory", and "Cannot Save Project", and we cheer up pretty quickly.

:)


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 4:15:10 am

Moved on to Ppro. Still sticking with MP and MBP for the moment, but not liking the handwriting on the wall. Still mourning the continued EOL'ing of Apple's professional products. They still make great toys though.

Starting to think about building a PC for the first time in 15 years.

Sigh....

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Alan Okey
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 1:41:34 pm

Avid and Smoke here. Still on a Mac, but if Autodesk ever ports Smoke to Windows I'll switch to a PC immediately.


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alban egger
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 3:11:46 pm

I can't believe there are so many still using FCP7. I just had to use it on a project on equipment of a network that uses it still. After a year of FCPX it is such a huge step backwards to 32-bit, tracks, unusable binstructure.
I suggest you take a long look at Avid, FCPX or CS6, because FCP7 is outdated soon.


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Shane Ross
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 6:02:16 pm

[alban egger] " I can't believe there are so many still using FCP7."

I don't. It still works very well for most of the jobs that people are using it for.

I still use it, but also have moved onto Avid. The future for me is Avid/Adobe.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 6:15:35 pm

[Shane Ross] "I don't. It still works very well for most of the jobs that people are using it for.

I still use it, but also have moved onto Avid. The future for me is Avid/Adobe.
"


That's where I am as well. There are a few things in FCP 7 that are still better than anything else, and I still use it, but I find that I've moved on as well. My future is also Avid/Adobe, and though there are, to my mind, some things that could use improvement--Avid needs to improve its Audio implementation, for instance, and Adobe needs to make things like Media Management work better--both current versions of the software shine.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 7:41:21 pm

OK, the subject of this thread is "Thoughts from the departed?", so is that you? Have you departed, or moved on?
Or are you here just to cheerlead for apple? If so, start a new thread.

[alban egger] "I can't believe there are so many still using FCP7"
It's not that hard to understand.
Most editors don't have a compelling need to constantly dump something that is working well, just because something new comes out. The operative term here is "new".
Now if something better comes out, or what you have doesn't do what you need, that's a different story.
I'd rather edit, than be an unpaid beta tester. And I'm not interested in learning a "new editing paradigm". The one I'm using works fine for me, and apples new editing paradigm isn't going to make me, or anyone else a better editor. But I understand that there are those out that are more into the 'geek factor' of bragging about having every new app under the sun, and not so much about the editing part. Whatever floats your boat. I'd rather spend my time editing rather than loading and tweaking new software.

[alban egger] "After a year of FCPX it is such a huge step backwards to 32-bit, tracks, unusable binstructure."

I doubt that the audience cares about your NLE, much less if it's a 32, or 64 bit app. 64 bit apps may be faster, but IMO the bottleneck in most systems is the editor, not whether its a 32 or 64 bit app. Reading the forums for any length of time will confirm that.
And what is better, a 32 bit app that is completely stable and proven, with a large pool of available editors with years of experience or a 64 bit app that is not stable, missing key features, that no one has more than a year experience using?

Tracks are a step backwards?
LOL! That sounds very much like these new 5D shooters that think lights and tripods are outdated, or a step backwards.
Unusable bin structure?
Seems like others have used bins successfully for decades.
These are strictly opinion, stated as if it they were a fact. Which they are not. If you have any facts to back up these assertions, please share them.

[alban egger] "because FCP7 is outdated soon."
I noticed you hedged you bet with the word "soon". Either FCP is, or isn't out of date. Once again, another opinion stated as if it were fact. While some shops and the big gun freelancers feel the need to have other NLE's on their system, this is not direct evidence the FCP7 is outdated, now or anytime "soon".
Tomorrow, and many days after that, editors all over the world will wake up and start cutting on "outdated" software, including FCP7.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Shane Ross
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 8:07:32 pm

Man, Scott. You said it better than I could. I agree with your words 10,000 percent (That's a Seuss-ian number)

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 8:21:05 pm

Well said.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 8:51:14 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "the bottleneck in most systems is the editor"

Ha Ha! Definitely true with my system.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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David Lawrence
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 9:26:48 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "Tracks are a step backwards?
LOL! That sounds very much like these new 5D shooters that think lights and tripods are outdated, or a step backwards."


LOL! Yep!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 2:10:44 am

[Scott Sheriff] "OK, the subject of this thread is "Thoughts from the departed?", so is that you? Have you departed, or moved on?
Or are you here just to cheerlead for apple? If so, start a new thread."


He won't tell you, but he's moved on: http://fcpxmegatest.blogspot.com/2011/07/using-peakbreak-as-our-first-fcp-x...

Started in July 2011


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alban egger
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 5:49:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Scott Sheriff] "OK, the subject of this thread is "Thoughts from the departed?", so is that you? Have you departed, or moved on?
Or are you here just to cheerlead for apple? If so, start a new thread."

He won't tell you, but he's moved on: http://fcpxmegatest.blogspot.com/2011/07/using-peakbreak-as-our-first-fcp-x....."


Haha....I am not afraid in telling you....yes I moved on to FCPX.

And if Scott thinks my opinions are not facts.....well...the thread is a direct question about our subjective feelings. I never claim what I say are facts. I don´t write it into wikipedia. I throw it here up for discussion. But the opinions of FCP7 users are just as fact-less as mine.

To think the client doesn´t care about 32-bit is very short-term thought. Every render process costs money. FCPX and CS6 are spinning FCP7 around and depending on the size of your project 64-bit can mean hours or days.

quote Scott Sheriff: Tracks are a step backwards?
LOL! That sounds very much like these new 5D shooters that think lights and tripods are outdated, or a step backwards.
quote end

......but Scott, what if the trackless is like putting a 5D on a dolly or jib? Ever thought that trackless could be better. Trackless could free your workflow from the restrictions of tracks. Sure there are moments when a steady tripod shot is needed. But then there are many shots that are so much better on steady cam/dolly/crane. There are moments when you might feel the need to have all spanish titles on one track, so you can turn them on/off and have a visual reference of where they are. But roles in FCPX does it just as effective.

And it is a fact FCP7 is outdated. The workflow might still work for many. There are still people using Media100 successful. But I am not a hip-teen who thinks I have to follow the newest hype. In that case I would be using CS6 on Win7 or a Linux machine. I have used NLEs for 15 years now and a few have won me instantly with their approach: Speed Razor, Fast (later Liquid), FCPX. Not FCP7....FCP7 always seemed like a hybrid to me: wanted to serve the tape-world (like Fast) and the tapeless (like Edius).

FCPX is not finished yet. No MXF workflow, several features missing (like copy/paste of certain attributes), audio-mixing...).

But it has features that are in my world already daily necessities to keep working as I got used to the last 12 months: skimming, auditions, magnetic timeline, keyword-bins, one-button conform-speed shortcut (we over crank a lot in our sports films), project browser etc etc.

No NLE is perfect. All do something better. All need an editor who uses them properly. For me it is FCPX at the moment (despite the lack of a thunderbolt-MacPro).



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Neil Goodman
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 3:13:02 pm

Went full force with Avid 6, as it made sense cause while my home office/freelance setup has always been FCP 7, work has always been MC, it didn't cost a lot to make the transition and it was pretty much painless.

Still have a couple lingering FCP 7 projects. Been poking FCP X with a stick, dabbling in each of the updates. Still not sold on it yet, but am hoping it becomes a great tool to one day that i can find a use for.

Havent touched PPr 6 yet. Looks cool but don't really see a reason to dive in yet, MC 6 is working great, roundtripping with Resolve is working pretty good, and stuff is getting done faster than i did with FCP 7 and color.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Mark Raudonis
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 5:49:50 pm

Moved on to AVID 6 and ISIS 5000 shared storage.

The deeper I get into our shared storage workflow, the more confident I am that
I made the right choice. Here we are more than one year later, and nothing that
I've seen from X so far has made me question my decision to go back to Avid.

mark



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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 6:21:38 pm

[Mark Raudonis] "Here we are more than one year later, and nothing that
I've seen from X so far has made me question my decision to go back to Avid.
"


Agreed. I'm quite happy with Mc6, though I would like to see a more robust audio implementation, i.e. more tracks, busses, and a master track that could accept filters and plugins. But, yes, nothing about X makes me pause at all about embracing Avid.


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jason carey
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 5:16:57 pm

what about the fact that it is slow , does not display layers in real time and does not do background rendering??I think Avid is a bust.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 5:48:10 pm

[jason carey] "what about the fact that it is slow "

Slow? I don't know what you are using it on or using with it, but even on my Macbook Pro, it does a really fine, responsive job of cutting both DNxHD and ProResHQ. "Slow" never enters my mind.

[jason carey] "does not display layers in real time"

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Multiple, overlapping layers? You certainly can--not as well as some other packages--but I wouldn't choose it as my main compositor, anyway. I'd use FCP 7 or Pr6 as a compositor over MC, no question.

[jason carey] "and does not do background rendering"

In general, I hate background rendering.

[jason carey] "I think Avid is a bust."

That's your business. And if my criteria for choosing an NLE were based on your above complaints, I wouldn't choose it either. In terms of actual cutting, I think it has the best tool set out there, though I'm impressed with what Adobe has done with MC 6, and plan to use that side by side with MC6 into the future.


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Chris Conlee
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 7:19:57 pm

Yeah, not sure what your benchmark for "Slow" is, but it doesn't equate with my experience at all. I cut features and television all day every day, and have never felt Avid to be slow in any respect, compared to all the other packages I've used. Especially compared to FCPL, which was always WAY clunky to me.

I've been using PP CS6 and it is FAST, that I will grant you. Unfortunately for doing feature film work, it still lacks the feature set I need. No way to match back to audio timecode, only rudimentary bin sorting (while in icon view), lack of AAF export for merged clips. A few other niggly little things. But I'm overall VERY impressed with PP CS6 and could see myself seriously using it in the future. I didn't even mind having to render outputs, because I could easily send the sequence to Media Encoder and render in the background while continuing to work.

And regarding "layers," I'm not sure what you're referring to. I play multiple layers in realtime all day every day.

To each their own, I guess. For my money, Avid is still the fastest, most feature rich and capable editor out there.

Chris Conlee


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Monica F.P.Williams
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 8:57:40 pm

At Moviola taking a class on Avid! next step Smoke.
:0)

Monica F.P.williams
crocodile editing
web: http://www.crocodileediting.com


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 5:58:00 pm

Moved on...
My FCS system is stable, and X just isn't all that, and a bag of chips.
Since X doesn't really offer anything new or worthwhile for me, I took that money and bought a NOS copy of Shake 4.1. So for less than the cost of X, I was able to greatly enhance my capabilities, and add a new range of services. Much more so than buying a redundant prosumer NLE like X. In a way, apple abandoning the pro market has produced some real bargains.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 6:56:55 pm

Another 6 months for FCP 7 and I am all Adobe then. Bought a License of CS 5.5 last year but was not very happy running it on a Mac Pro. Now I have a PC running CS6 and its a lot better! Its not what FCP & was but I guess we all have to live with some compromises.

Sohrab



FCS 3 & Adobe PPro
AJA Kona Lhi, Mac Pro 2 X 2.66 Ghz Quad Core
Flanders Scientific LM-1760W




"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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Nevin Styre
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 8:49:51 pm

Been switching to Adobe since Final Cut Ex was released, at home I've got a PC with CS6 creative cloud & at work we have a mac pro 2,1 with FCS3 and CS6. At work it's a mixture between FC7 and PPCS6 but moving more towards the latter. If I have an animation AE heavy project it's CS6, if I have a lot of H264 source footage it's CS6, if I know I will be doing some work at home, CS6.

FC7 is getting less and less use as I go, but it is still rock solid for cut to cut editing for me, plus I have a lot of legacy projects done before I was with the company that are in FCP, & with FCP still running great it's easier to update them in FCP than try and convert/conform them to CS6. Obviously premiere pro is still missing things from FC7, but to me it's missing the least of my alternatives. Not to mention the MPE speed and AE dynamic link mean a lot to my workflow.


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Robert Brown
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 8:39:31 pm

I think a lot of the noise was just from the shock of the whole thing, especially if you made your money with FCP 7. The reality is there was never a better time in history for that to happen as now there multiple options. I had an Avid gig for the first time in a long time a couple of months ago and had it down in about 2 weeks for basic editing, and I'm doing another project with PPro and that seems the best thing going for working with compressed cam original footage. Seems like there are plenty of good tools to do what you need to do but I can't deny the whole debacle seriously changed my impression of Apple. I never was a true "fanboy" and now I'm much less of a fan.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Eric Hansen
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 8:53:17 pm

All of my "facility" clients are still on FCP7. Many of them have downloaded PPro 5.5 and 6, Avid, and FCX to try them out, but they're all still working in FCP7 daily. Hardware, established workflows and most importantly, it's what their staff already knows. If you look at the costs of changing facility-wide, it's a lot more than just the cost of some software licenses. If you're a large facility, theres a lot of labor cost added in (downtime to upgrade the systems, time for the staff to learn new software, time to deal with glitches as they pop up). For many of the editors I work with, FCP is all they've ever known. Amazing and a testament to what Apple pulled off with the app over the years.

The one-man-bands that I work with are way more eager to switch apps. Mostly because it's cheaper for them in the software purchase and it's advantageous for them to know multiple platforms. Freelance people are also more open to spending their time learning an new app. Facility owners don't want their entire staff spending their limited work hours learning new software, which you can't bill a client for.

the last year has been incredibly interesting, that's for sure. Me personally, I hope all the companies are watching each other and everything will improve though competition.

just my 2 cents

e

Eric Hansen
Production Workflow Designer / Consultant / Colorist / DIT
http://www.erichansen.tv


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Robert Brown
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 1:25:41 am

I was going to do a post about this but I'm wondering if FCP 7 is going to be Apple's Windows XP. I saw MS for years try to get people interested in Vista but many just ignored it and stuck with what they knew and what worked. They seem to have finally moved past that with Win 7.

I'm also seeing a lot of people sticking with FCP 7 - it works! You may have to deal with transcoding but that's often not that big of a deal if the amount footage isn't too ridiculous and what you want is speed and reliability when working on a long project and working with a solid, consistent codec is still the best way to do that.

It will be interesting to see how long people continue to use it. It's not unprecedented since many of used CMX and GVG editors that were ancient by the time they finally pulled the plug but they worked day in and day out.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Dustin Parsons
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 9:08:31 pm

Sticking with my 2008 MacPro for now, just bought a Quadro 4000 and am in the transitioning stage between FCP7 and Premiere CS6. FCPX is intriguing but I do a lot of motion graphics and I much prefer After Effects to Motion so I'd rather stay within the Adobe ecosystem seeing as I'm in PS and AE every day and I want as seamless a workflow as possible. Disclaimer: I've only dabbled in Premiere CS6 so far but from what I've seen, I'm excited to make the change.

Oh yeah... and I guess there's Avid. I just can't get excited for Avid – I'll learn it if I have to but every time I go back and give it a shot I can't shake the feeling that this is an old, slow, unintuitive program that, no matter how many version I skip before trying it again, doesn't seem to change much.


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Chris Conlee
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 2:10:56 am

[Dustin Parsons] "I'll learn it if I have to but every time I go back and give it a shot I can't shake the feeling that this is an old, slow, unintuitive program that, no matter how many version I skip before trying it again, doesn't seem to change much"

You know why? Because it's been doing high end film and video work for 20+ years and doesn't need a "reimagining," despite Apples' feelings to the contrary. Honestly, I've used probably a dozen NLEs over the years, including MovieShop and Toaster Flyer on the Amiga, and D/Vision Pro on a 486. Speed Razor, Premiere Pro, Incite, Avid, Final Cut Pro, Lightworks, you name it. There isn't an NLE out there that's faster, in my opinion. Once you know what you're doing, it as well designed as any editor I've used. Everything is right at your fingertips.

It may not be new and flashy looking, but after you understand it, you'll never say it's slow again.

Chris Conlee


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 4:49:19 am

[Chris Conlee] "You know why? Because it's been doing high end film and video work for 20+ years and doesn't need a "reimagining," despite Apples' feelings to the contrary. Honestly, I've used probably a dozen NLEs over the years, including MovieShop and Toaster Flyer on the Amiga, and D/Vision Pro on a 486. Speed Razor, Premiere Pro, Incite, Avid, Final Cut Pro, Lightworks, you name it. There isn't an NLE out there that's faster, in my opinion. Once you know what you're doing, it as well designed as any editor I've used. Everything is right at your fingertips.

It may not be new and flashy looking, but after you understand it, you'll never say it's slow again."


I agree. Its a great editor. I'm having a lot of fun getting back into it. About the only things I see that I would like improved--and there have been so many improvements since I was last aboard--are a slight reworking of the audio (I'd like more realtime tracks, and a master track for the mixer that could take assignable plugins) and I would like AMA to be a little faster. I'm very happy with it and glad I picked up a couple of seats while the picking was good.


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Chris Conlee
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 7:22:17 pm

Yeah, 100% in agreement about the audio needing an overhaul. Why have RTAS plugins at all if they aren't keyframeable? How often do you want the same 'verb or EQ on an entire track? It is useful for applying some basic compression, but that's about it. And more tracks is a must, in this day and age.

Chris


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Lynette Gilbert
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jul 17, 2012 at 2:05:17 pm

OMG, I completely forgot about D/Vision. I think that was the first NLE I learned ...


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David Lawrence
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 9:25:34 pm

I'm slowly transitioning from FCP Studio to Adobe CS6.

Just finished my first commercial project in PrP6 and was very happy with the overall experience as was the client. The initial project came over perfectly from FCP7 as an XML and cutting in PP6 was familiar, fast and easy. The differences in media management - namely having to import projects rather than having multiples open in tabs - actually worked to my advantage in this piece.

My only beef is the well know issue of render on output. This was a two-minute piece so re-rendering output for the entire thing for every client change was not a huge deal. But it's obvious this will get unmanageable very fast as program length increases. The Adobe notion that you pay the render tax at output is IMO very misleading, as it doesn't account for client changes throughout the editorial process.

I know Adobe has heard this gripe many times before, but I'm saying it again because until they deal with it, output will be a big issue in many workflows. Once they nail this, media management and tape I/O, I think they'll be golden.

I'm also now using dynamic link with AE for another piece I've just started and am giddy with the results. Coming from FCP/Motion, dynamic link between PrP6 and AE is a whole new world of awesome. I'm loving it.

In the meantime, FCP7 Legend is still an important part of the kit, mainly because there are so many legacy projects I still need to touch, but also for iChat Theater preview, which is an essential collaboration tool I have yet to find a replacement for.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 10:24:54 pm

[David Lawrence] "Just finished my first commercial project in PrP6 and was very happy with the overall experience as was the client. "


I know you are on a MBP but are you running windows or OS X? If OS X, how has your experience been with CS6? Better than CS 5.5?

Sohrab



FCS 3 & Adobe PPro
AJA Kona Lhi, Mac Pro 2 X 2.66 Ghz Quad Core
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"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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David Lawrence
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 25, 2012 at 10:52:04 pm

[Sohrab Sandhu] "I know you are on a MBP but are you running windows or OS X? If OS X, how has your experience been with CS6? Better than CS 5.5?"

Running Mac OS 10.6.8. To be honest, I briefly played with PrP CS 5.5 last year, but didn't care for it. The changes in CS6 were what won me over.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Robert Brown
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 1:39:38 am

[David Lawrence] "My only beef is the well know issue of render on output. This was a two-minute piece so re-rendering output for the entire thing for every client change was not a huge deal. But it's obvious this will get unmanageable very fast as program length increases. The Adobe notion that you pay the render tax at output is IMO very misleading, as it doesn't account for client changes throughout the editorial process."

I agree. I think the way they have to deal with it is some sort of background or foreground rendering process with a type of codec that is lossless like FCP where if dealing with a compressed codec it just transfers that compressed info to the final file without decode/encode. I imagine you could kind of get this with using uncompressed and by selecting "use render files" but there's really no excuse to have to work that inefficiently in this day and age.

The real time capabilities are great but usually you start to lock various parts of the cut and it's not that big of a hassle to render those in lunch breaks, bathroom breaks etc. The key is to not have to redo work/rendering that's already been done.

I think Adobe needs to look at this as an opportunity and not a burden because if they can crack this it will cause many more people to go with PPro.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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David Lawrence
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 3:09:25 am

[Robert Brown] "The real time capabilities are great but usually you start to lock various parts of the cut and it's not that big of a hassle to render those in lunch breaks, bathroom breaks etc. The key is to not have to redo work/rendering that's already been done."

Exactly. The efficiencies of real-time native editing are fantastic, but the inefficiencies of re-rendering the same stuff over and over for every output quickly cancels out any speed advantage.


[Robert Brown] "I think Adobe needs to look at this as an opportunity and not a burden because if they can crack this it will cause many more people to go with PPro."

Yes!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 2:02:55 pm

David,

... sidetracking (and I think I've asked you this before) but I'll ask anyway:

How was your experience with audio work in PPro?

Franz.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 7:05:48 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "David,

... sidetracking (and I think I've asked you this before) but I'll ask anyway:

How was your experience with audio work in PPro?

Franz.

"


Mine has been pretty darn good. It's the best audio implementation I've seen so far. I'm using it right now to clean up Final Delivery elements and its a pleasure.


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David Lawrence
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 8:27:48 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "David,

... sidetracking (and I think I've asked you this before) but I'll ask anyway:

How was your experience with audio work in PPro?"


Franz,

On my last project, the audio was very simple - just a single mono V/O with stereo background music. Like Chris, I had no issues whatsoever. Everything worked as expected, mixing was easy (I used clip-based keyframed volume curves like I normally would in FCP7). I like the flexibility of different track types and I like being able to specify how to interpret a clip's audio. It's a nice improvement over FCP.

On the project I'm just starting, I'll need to sync some dual-source audio. I'll let you know how that goes.

The other new tool in CS6 I'm super excited about is Audition. This is new for us Mac people. Audition looks like all kinds of awesome. Just the spectral tools alone are making me drool. I've barely cracked the surface and can't wait to really dig in. Suddenly losing Soundtrack Pro doesn't feel so bad...

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Walter Soyka
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 8:34:34 pm

[David Lawrence] "The other new tool in CS6 I'm super excited about is Audition. This is new for us Mac people. Audition looks like all kinds of awesome. Just the spectral tools alone are making me drool. I've barely cracked the surface and can't wait to really dig in. Suddenly losing Soundtrack Pro doesn't feel so bad..."

Audition first came to the Mac on CS5.5.

I know just enough about audio to be dangerous, but I've found Audition to be much, much more responsive and stable than STP ever was for me, so now I'm way more dangerous in way less time than I ever was before.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 9:27:34 pm

David, Chris,

Thanks - I have to say I am still in the sceptics' camp on this one though to hear such positive things is encouraging. I'm really dragging my feet on trying out PPro (I've only spent a few hours in it) (not least because of the Matrox driver / FCP7 / PPro issue).

I'm less enthusiastic about Audition, though I never liked STP - I always felt that those tools should be directly available in the timeline (or at most one special module away from use) and I viewed with great suspicion the path-of-least-resistance approach that Apple took by buying software and producing a "suite". But I realize I am in a minority there (as many here seem to have great appreciation for STP).

Is Audition at least better integrated? I'll have to have a look at some videos.

Franz.


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David Lawrence
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 10:26:09 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Is Audition at least better integrated? I'll have to have a look at some videos."

I've only done the most basic testing but it seems to work like the other Dynamic Link applications. Simply select the audio clip on the timeline, then send it to Audition. Any changes saved in Audition are immediately updated in the PrP timeline.

[Walter Soyka] "Audition first came to the Mac on CS5.5."

That's right, I forgot about that! I think it was one of those many CS applications I never bothered installing ;)


[Robert Brown] "If you haven't checked out Plural Eyes yet they have a free trial. It makes that stuff really easy."

Yep, I've tried Plural Eyes with FCP and liked it. Will check out the PrP version.

Now we just need Boris to build SoundBite for CS6...

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 10:57:35 pm

[David Lawrence] "I've only done the most basic testing but it seems to work like the other Dynamic Link applications. Simply select the audio clip on the timeline, then send it to Audition. Any changes saved in Audition are immediately updated in the PrP timeline."

David,

Is it both flexible and transparent in terms of where processed (rendered) media ends up? (meaning can you change where that file gets saved and can you find it and access it in the finder?)

I really disliked the way STP was set up to hide these files.

Franz.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 11:13:09 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "David, Chris,

Thanks - I have to say I am still in the sceptics' camp on this one though to hear such positive things is encouraging. I'm really dragging my feet on trying out PPro (I've only spent a few hours in it) (not least because of the Matrox driver / FCP7 / PPro issue).
"


I just finished something with 14 tracks of audio, with multiple audio configuration exports. So, here's my take a little more specifically. I really like that I can edit audio at both the clip level and the track level. Its nice to be able to adjust dialog and and sfx as I go, and then come along and rubber-band everything as I mix. I very much like the new mixer, and love having sends to sub-mixes. It is also nice to have a master track that can be key-framed. I'm still getting used to the approach that Pr6 takes to multichannel, and it seems a bit convoluted compared to the way FCPL worked, but that may be me.

Things I'd like to see: More flexible Sends, Plugin implementation at track level, Plugin implementation on the mixer, and Channel output control from the mixer that also can be altered after the timeline is created.

I still have more to learn, so that's it for now. As to Audition, I like it, but haven't messed around enough with it yet. My gut tells me I'll still probably use Logic or ProTools, but I haven't really given it a chance.


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David Cherniack
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 12:57:22 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Things I'd like to see: More flexible Sends, Plugin implementation at track level, Plugin implementation on the mixer,"

Plugins can be added on track level in the mixer. In the upper part of each strip you can add about 20, I think. The plugins area may still have a drop down switch on the left side of the mixer. (Mine are always dropped down). Adobe has licensed a basic set of VSTs. Third party 64 bit VSTs that work with Pr are hard to find but those that work, work well. I've mixed whole documentaries completely within Pr CS5+.

@David Lawrence. Audition is not yet dynamic linked. You can render a timeline clip and send it to Audition and If you save it in Audition it's updated in Premiere.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 3:14:15 pm

[David Cherniack] "In the upper part of each strip you can add about 20, I think. The plugins area may still have a drop down switch on the left side of the mixer. "

Found them! That's fantastic. Thank you! It would have taken me a long while to bump into that toggle button. I just kept clicking in the area you'd click in my various DAWS, and saying to myself, "dang, there should be sends and plug-ins here. Oh, well." Again, thanks!

[David Cherniack] " Third party 64 bit VSTs that work with Pr are hard to find but those that work, work well"

I would guess. Of the few VST I have, none are showing up.

Two quick questions: A) do you know if I can keyframe a plug-in that I drop in on the mixer? B) Is there any way I'm missing to change the channel output of a track to multichannel from stereo once the track is created?

Thanks again!


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David Cherniack
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 5:54:36 pm

[Chris Harlan] " A) do you know if I can keyframe a plug-in that I drop in on the mixer?"

Not on the track level as far as I know. Plugins can certainly be keyframed on the clip level if their parameters are exposed (most are).



[Chris Harlan] " B) Is there any way I'm missing to change the channel output of a track to multichannel from stereo once the track is created?"

When you create the timeline creat a master multitrack (up to 16). Then your stereo tracks can be assigned in pairs to your output.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 6:00:53 pm

[David Cherniack] "[Chris Harlan] " A) do you know if I can keyframe a plug-in that I drop in on the mixer?"

Not on the track level as far as I know. Plugins can certainly be keyframed on the clip level if their parameters are exposed (most are).
"


Pity. But still--what a robust audio tool for an NLE!


[David Cherniack] "[Chris Harlan] " B) Is there any way I'm missing to change the channel output of a track to multichannel from stereo once the track is created?"

When you create the timeline creat a master multitrack (up to 16). Then your stereo tracks can be assigned in pairs to your output.
"


Yes, I learned this the hard way, though of course it was only cut and paste to fix once I figured it out. If I assign 6 channels out, is there any way to get rid of those 6 channels in that show up on the clips? I know that they are harmless, but they are distracting and take up real estate?

Thanks again for your pointers!


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David Cherniack
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 28, 2012 at 12:16:20 am

[Chris Harlan] "is there any way to get rid of those 6 channels in that show up on the clips? I know that they are harmless, but they are distracting and take up real estate?"

I'm afraid that I can't completely grasp what you're referring to. You shouldn't have 6 channels per clip in the timeline unless you've brought your audio in as 5.1.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 28, 2012 at 1:59:13 am

[David Cherniack] "I'm afraid that I can't completely grasp what you're referring to. You shouldn't have 6 channels per clip in the timeline unless you've brought your audio in as 5.1.
"


To do my audio splits, I set up a multichannel timeline with all tracks set to Adaptive. In this case, I needed six--four mono and 1 stereo--so it is just a coincidence that it has the same number as 5.1. Whatever I set the number of output channels to, the adaptive tracks match with "input channels." These input channels show up in the individual clips represented by dashed lines. I may be doing something wrong, but I haven't found out what yet.


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David Cherniack
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 28, 2012 at 2:42:22 am

Chris, I haven't played around too much with the different track types. I suggest going on the Premiere forum, either here or at Adobe, and asking there. Sorry.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 28, 2012 at 3:13:55 am

[David Cherniack] "Chris, I haven't played around too much with the different track types. I suggest going on the Premiere forum, either here or at Adobe, and asking there. Sorry.
"


Thanks, but I'm totally getting into this. The level of sophistication is amazing. There are channels. There are tracks. They can be converted to and fro using mapping and modify. You can build ProRes templates for both timeline and export. There are sends to sends. I'm having a lot of fun breaking this all down. Bravo to the folks who put this crazy thing together. I'm having fun!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 28, 2012 at 5:07:47 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Thanks, but I'm totally getting into this. The level of sophistication is amazing. There are channels. There are tracks. They can be converted to and fro using mapping and modify. "

The awesome thing for me with Pr is the honest to goodness submixes.

If you have checkerboarded audio on 1 and 3, and maybe 2 and 4, you can group 1/3 & 2/4, send them to submixes and apply the same filter to them (i.e. compression or whatever). The only problem is that the keyframes do not move with the tracks.

If there was ever a time for a magnetic anything, it would be now.

Also, I think the mixer could stand to use a "downmix" button so that you could setup and mix a multichannel output, but still monitor stereo. This way you could ensure a proper multichannel output (split) but still be able to hear what you're doing easily without having to rewire your suite.

I also think that you can't really change stereo to dual mono very easily.

I think I'll just go on record and ask, why are stereo tracks even necessary? It just doesn't seem like a worthwhile venture to me and always seem to cause more trouble if you forgot to break your clip in to dual mono first. Or if they are necessary, can't we simply have the control to break out to dual mono if needed?

Smoke 2013 has them too. Sure, it makes for a "tidier" interface, but functionally they cause more problems than solve or at least that's how I hold it wrong.

All that being said, Pr has some really sweet tools for audio, it just needs a few more upgrades for ultimate flexibility.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 28, 2012 at 5:32:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The awesome thing for me with Pr is the honest to goodness submixes.
"


Its good stuff.


[Jeremy Garchow] " think the mixer could stand to use a "downmix" button so that you could setup and mix a multichannel output, but still monitor stereo. "

Agreed. But I love that I can now monitor all my outbound channels by simply clicking the toggle at the bottom of the audio meters. It would be nice if you could gang those to monitor all outs, but as is, it is definitely a step up.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I also think that you can't really change stereo to dual mono very easily.

I think I'll just go on record and ask, why are stereo tracks even necessary?"


I'm still weighing this in my head. I do like the way that FCPL deals/dealt with stereo/mono issues, but I'm going to stay open about the choices available in Pr. I'm really interested in understanding the inner implications of the Standard and Adaptive tracks. The channel patching available in adaptive and the clip-level modify audio are positively exotic in what they let you do to patch multi-channel/multi-track audio.


[Jeremy Garchow] "All that being said, Pr has some really sweet tools for audio, it just needs a few more upgrades for ultimate flexibility.
"


Well, there's always room for more, but dang--there are some interesting things here.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 28, 2012 at 6:08:39 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I'm still weighing this in my head. I do like the way that FCPL deals/dealt with stereo/mono issues, but I'm going to stay open about the choices available in Pr. I'm really interested in understanding the inner implications of the Standard and Adaptive tracks. The channel patching available in adaptive and the clip-level modify audio are positively exotic in what they let you do to patch multi-channel/multi-track audio."

It's true, and I can see a use for them (track filters being one of them) it's just that it'd be nice to be able to get out of it if I need to, or be able to convert a stereo cam orig clip to a dual mono without a reedit.

What I could see a great use for is an adaptive submix that could downmix to a 2 channel stereo out. I can't figure how to make it work if that is possible in Pr CS6. If someone knows, I'd love to hear about it,

I also tried cheating it by using various submixes with separate assigned channels to downmix to stereo.

So I'd set track 1&2 to 1+2 out, 3&4 to 3+4 out, etc. then send all of those to 2 separate stereo submixes both set to 1+2 out on a 12 channel master and it works, but when I change 3&4 back to "master" they have lost the 3+4 channel assignment, which means I will have to manually rewire it all again.

You know what would be awesome? If I could just assign a tag to each clip and when I export they export properly in to a stem without me having to do much.

I kid, I kid.

Really, I am kidding.

Jeremy


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 29, 2012 at 11:32:17 am

[Chris Harlan] "You can build ProRes templates for both timeline and export."

Sounds like you're giving Premiere Pro a spin, thanks!

You might check out the presets for Mac users that are located here:
ProRes Presets for Mac

this will give you ProRes export presets via Premiere Pro and AME.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 29, 2012 at 3:44:58 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "[Chris Harlan] "You can build ProRes templates for both timeline and export."

Sounds like you're giving Premiere Pro a spin, thanks!
"


More than a spin. I've pretty much decided that Pr and MC are going to be my two main NLEs going forward. (And of course FCPL as long as it lasts.) You folks have done a great job with Pr 6, and its a pleasure to use.

[Dennis Radeke] "You might check out the presets for Mac users that are located here:
ProRes Presets for Mac

this will give you ProRes export presets via Premiere Pro and AME.
"


Thanks! I've been rolling my own, which is no particular problem, but I'll download these now.


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Robert Brown
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 10:06:10 pm

[David Lawrence] "On the project I'm just starting, I'll need to sync some dual-source audio. I'll let you know how that goes."

If you haven't checked out Plural Eyes yet they have a free trial. It makes that stuff really easy.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Chris Harlan
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 27, 2012 at 6:11:30 am

[David Lawrence] "The other new tool in CS6 I'm super excited about is Audition. This is new for us Mac people. Audition looks like all kinds of awesome. Just the spectral tools alone are making me drool. I've barely cracked the surface and can't wait to really dig in. Suddenly losing Soundtrack Pro doesn't feel so bad..."

I just took the spot I finished this afternoon and spent a couple of hours messing with it in Audition. I have to say, I like it. Its a stripped-down DAW that fits very nicely with video. The built in EQ strip on each track and all of the buses is fun and easy to use. Its close enough to Pr's own internal mixer that it just feels like a more robust version of the same. I wouldn't be surprised if Pr 7 has Audition fully integrated as its mixer. After playing for a while, I'm pretty certain this is how I will mix Pr spots. I wish Protools and MC were this tight.


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Brooks Tomlinson
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jul 17, 2012 at 3:32:09 pm

About your render on export, have you read this post?

http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2011/08/a-prores-workflow-end-to-end.html

Karl talks about making it all pro res. So when you render an effect to see if it works, it is rendering to pro res. Then, at the final output, you can check the box that says "use renders in final output" He also has a follow up article on advance settings.

I've noticed it really speeds up final output. Learning about this set up has made pp6 awesome for me. Also the dynamic linking actually works this time. So going to aftereffects and back is easy. I'm sure if your windows you could just pick the codec of your choice as well. Like avid dnx.

Brooks
"I dream in 32bit float, don't you?"

Brooks Tomlinson


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James Mortner
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 7:56:21 am

Still on FCP 7, not much interest or momentum surrounding X at the moment. I'd like to try it at home but dont have a MAcBook lol


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Rainer Wirth
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 9:30:19 am

Still working with FCP 7, testing Adobe production suite and MC 6. Possible workflow for the future: Editing on MC 6 or FCP7, finishing on smoke 2013 on a seperate workstation. This new workstation will be equiped with a 3D workflow.

factstory

Rainer Wirth



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Rafael Amador
Re: Thoughts from the departed?
on Jun 26, 2012 at 10:24:06 am

My bottleneck is not on ingesting strange footages, organizing or rendering but, as has been pointed here, on editing, deciding where to put each element and so far for my anarchic editing, FC.7 is the NLE that allows me more flexibility.
Next stop: PP
I do not dismiss FCPX as a pro NLE, but I do not consider it as an option for my self, mostly because at my 55s I have things more interesting to learn than a new NLE and I know that no NLE will help me to make more interesting my videos.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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