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Andrew Richards
Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 23, 2012 at 3:21:29 pm

This is one loooong review, but it is worth it. Very technically detailed, and very fair as well. Lots of deep analysis of the GPU, Thunderbolt, the SSD, and of course, the display.

AnandTech's Retina MacBook Pro Review

Best,
Andy


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Paul Dickin
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 23, 2012 at 4:32:42 pm

Hi
Fascinating stuff!
As to 'later in 2012", this from page 8:
"Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge were both good steps for Intel, but Haswell and Broadwell are the designs that Apple truly wanted."

That led me to:
"Haswell's AVX2 integer support is particularly useful for processing visual data commonly encountered in consumer imaging and video processing workloads."
http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2011/06/13/haswell-new-instruction-de...

Also:
"In addition, it will support OpenGL 3.2 and OpenCL 1.2, which will improve performance in certain general purpose computing on graphics processing units (GPGPU) supported applications. The iGPU will feature new Auto-Stereoscopic 3D (AS3D), which will provide 3D support that is typically only available through the use of discrete GPUs. It will support up to three independent displays: HDMI 1.4, DVI, Display Port, VGA."
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Intel-Haswell-iGPU-DirectX_11.1-OpenCL_1.2...

I also found a page (which I've lost the link to) discussing Intel's strategy to get its next-gen IGP graphics 'certified' for applications like Nuke which now run need to run on nVidia Quadra-type external graphics cards...

Seems a lot is 'going on' for delivery 'later in 2013' ;-)



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Steve Connor
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 23, 2012 at 4:33:59 pm

Thanks for posting this Andrew, reading it has almost convinced me to order one.

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Paul Dickin
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 23, 2012 at 4:52:49 pm

And the rMBP's TB ports give even faster RAID storage access than Walter Biscardi's " don't know about you, but 1100MB/s Write and 1300MB/s Read is about as fast a RAID as I've ever tested..." Promax One benchtests.
Nice :-)



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Herb Sevush
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 23, 2012 at 6:28:05 pm

[Paul Dickin] "And the rMBP's TB ports give even faster RAID storage access than Walter Biscardi's " don't know about you, but 1100MB/s Write and 1300MB/s Read is about as fast a RAID as I've ever tested..." Promax One benchtests.Nice :-)"

Your comparing SSD raids to HD raids. No shock they're faster, but the cost for a large capacity SSD raid could buy you a new car.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Dickin
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 23, 2012 at 7:40:40 pm

Hi
Well Walter's Promax One is $17,664.
rMBP + Promise Raid + SSD's? More than $17,664?

Anand was trying to determine the speed of the 'pipe', with whatever was to hand to attempt to saturate it.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 24, 2012 at 12:20:02 am

The 17K was for a loaded workstation with 18Tb raid. My guess is the raid part cost 5-6K. What would a 18Tb SSD raid cost when SSDs go for roughly $1/per Gb? Is say around 20K for the raid alone.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 24, 2012 at 4:54:01 pm

This computer is a wonder and a stumper all in one. This article does a great job of explaining it.

Sure, Apple is pushing the limits of technology, but does this make things better?

Faster is one thing, I'm looking for better.

I could care less if Facebook runs at 60fps or 18.

It's interesting he points out how much work the GPU combination is doing, and how much it has to do for the retina. It's rather illuminating. I wonder how this effects performance in GPU based applications. This computer is an Apple test pod until technology catches up, they usually start slow.

One thing seems pretty clear, we can bet on Retina and Flash in the next desktop Apple releases, just don't take it Vegas.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 25, 2012 at 6:45:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's interesting he points out how much work the GPU combination is doing, and how much it has to do for the retina. It's rather illuminating. I wonder how this effects performance in GPU based applications. This computer is an Apple test pod until technology catches up, they usually start slow. "

This is the bit I was most dissuaded by. Bear in mind that you can get the same Ivy Bridge + Kepler guts in a old-school MBP, albeit with the old-school screen to go with it. But without all those built-in pixels to drive, GPU-hungry apps might likely fare better on the non-Retina MBPs. You can always get a fast SSD in the MBP to match (or exceed) the rMBP's storage performance, pack it with 16 GB RAM after-market (maybe even 32 GB?), and swap out the ODD for a second HDD, which can be had up to 1 TB these days. Granted, the screen won't be able to deliver as much real estate, but the Retina MBP apparently really has to strain its GPU just to do all the scaling necessary to drive 1920x1200 mode.

All told, if you can stand the old screen and its old resolution, the non-Retina MBP might be the safer choice for someone who plans to really push the rest of the hardware to its limits, at least this go 'round. In a couple years everything out of Apple will be Retina, and the GPUs won't be breaking a sweat to handle it. But for now, I think I'd stick with the non-Retina.

(Full disclosure: I'm a 2010 13" MacBook Air user and I plan up upgrade to a fully loaded 2012 13" MacBook Air).

Best,
Andy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 25, 2012 at 6:47:28 pm

[Andrew Richards] "All told, if you can stand the old screen and its old resolution, "

This kills the edit.


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David Lawrence
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 12:09:00 am

Great article Andy, many thanks for posting.

[Andrew Richards] "This is the bit I was most dissuaded by. Bear in mind that you can get the same Ivy Bridge + Kepler guts in a old-school MBP, albeit with the old-school screen to go with it. But without all those built-in pixels to drive, GPU-hungry apps might likely fare better on the non-Retina MBPs. You can always get a fast SSD in the MBP to match (or exceed) the rMBP's storage performance, pack it with 16 GB RAM after-market (maybe even 32 GB?), and swap out the ODD for a second HDD, which can be had up to 1 TB these days. Granted, the screen won't be able to deliver as much real estate, but the Retina MBP apparently really has to strain its GPU just to do all the scaling necessary to drive 1920x1200 mode."

I had a similar take-away. Clearly the MPRr is a technological marvel, bleeding edge in every respect. But despite the amazing job Apple's done pushing the state-of-the-art, Intel and Nvidia still need to catch up.

I priced a new system for myself and and for everything I'd need (including new TB display) even with a discount, I'm still looking at more than a $4700 investment. For that kind of money, overall system performance needs to be awesome above and beyond the other offerings on the table. Little things like laggy browser scrolling isn't OK, actually. I take that as a sign that this laptop is a transitional device. I'm sure for many it will be fantastic, but I have a feeling for me it's not a great value yet. Better to wait until Intel and Nvidia produce chips that are designed for high density screens.

I'm not happy about waiting. CS6 really needs more than I can give it and I'm ready to buy something. But I really want state-of-the-art. I'm willing to pay for it, but it feels like this is about a year too early. Maybe something used and cheap as a interim machine?

I'm pretty confident Apple will build a laptop I'll want. More confident than I'd be if I needed a tower. But it's definitely a weird, transitional time for hardware. Lots of promise in the future but hard to drop big bucks now.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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facebook.com/dlawrence
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Chris Harlan
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 12:52:59 am

[David Lawrence] "I'm not happy about waiting. CS6 really needs more than I can give it and I'm ready to buy something. But I really want state-of-the-art. I'm willing to pay for it, but it feels like this is about a year too early. Maybe something used and cheap as a interim machine?"

I've got to tell you, I've been very happy with my last on the line 17". It preforms favorably against the current chip release. And, 2010 17 still preforms well too, though without TBolt. If they were still selling a next gen MBP 17, I would probably choose it over the MBPr. So, there might be some bargains out there.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 1:36:38 am

[David Lawrence] "I'm not happy about waiting. CS6 really needs more than I can give it and I'm ready to buy something. But I really want state-of-the-art. I'm willing to pay for it, but it feels like this is about a year too early. Maybe something used and cheap as a interim machine?"

Do you want state of the art, or speed?

Once cs6 is retina, won't much of the scaling go away?

As long as you aren't browsing Facebook and editing at the exact same time, won't you be OK? He explains why Facebook lags.

Look at the ray trace tests: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuE_AZZfskx3dHotTzVGamhiUkIySTU...

If you really need speed, why not a PC?

Have you looked at the HP laptops? They are 7+ pounds, but sport a Dreamcolor.

Double the ram, triple the HD capability, similar price.

;)


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David Lawrence
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 5:29:51 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Do you want state of the art, or speed?"

Both!

I remember when one meant the other and visa versa. I don't think that's too much to ask, especially when you're dropping close to $5K.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Once cs6 is retina, won't much of the scaling go away?

As long as you aren't browsing Facebook and editing at the exact same time, won't you be OK? He explains why Facebook lags."


Yes he does:
"The GPU has an easy time with its part of the process but the CPU’s workload is borderline too much for a single core to handle. Throw a more complex website at it and things get bad quickly. Facebook combines a lot of compressed images with text - every single image is decompressed on the CPU before being handed off to the GPU. Combine that with other elements that are processed on the CPU and you get a recipe for choppy scrolling."

He then goes on to write about how it's much better in Mountain Lion:
"Whereas I would consider the rMBP experience under Lion to be borderline unacceptable, everything is significantly better under Mountain Lion. Don’t expect buttery smoothness across the board, you’re still asking a lot of the CPU and GPU, but it’s a lot better."

I think it's great that Mountain Lion is more efficient, but for the money this machine costs, I'd much rather have a CPU and GPU that was totally up to the task. I want my buttery smoothness in hardware!


[Jeremy Garchow] "If you really need speed, why not a PC?

Have you looked at the HP laptops? They are 7+ pounds, but sport a Dreamcolor.

Double the ram, triple the HD capability, similar price.

;)"


True dat. If I had the resources for a dedicated work machine, I'd think seriously about Windows. But thing is, I use my one machine for everything -- work and everything else in my life. Not gonna give up Mac OS for the non-work everyday stuff. I mean would you? ;)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 12:57:03 pm

[David Lawrence] "I remember when one meant the other and visa versa. I don't think that's too much to ask, especially when you're dropping close to $5K."

Kinda. Macs have never really been the fastest or most expandable. :)

The retina is fast, but it also has some really new features, and it's not cheap.

[David Lawrence] "True dat. If I had the resources for a dedicated work machine, I'd think seriously about Windows. But thing is, I use my one machine for everything -- work and everything else in my life. Not gonna give up Mac OS for the non-work everyday stuff. I mean would you? ;)"

Moi? Well, no but clearly I don't know what I am missing on the windows side, it's supposed to be the bees knees.

Too bad figuring out how to enter a simple IP address takes 4 screens and a chant.

Seriously though, I'd wait to see if someone has used cs6 with it. I've heard prelim reports that openCL kinda works. It will of course take an official update from Adobe to "bless" it but in since Ps CS6 was shown, it must be on their radar.

You can still buy refurb 17" that has official openCL support.

Jeremy


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Tim Wilson
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 5:23:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[David Lawrence] "..But thing is, I use my one machine for everything -- work and everything else in my life. Not gonna give up Mac OS for the non-work everyday stuff. I mean would you? ;)"

Moi? Well, no but clearly I don't know what I am missing on the windows side, it's supposed to be the bees knees.


No, MAC is the bee's knees - unless you're lumpy, wear a suit and comb your hair. If 3 years of Justin Long isn't enough to convince you of that, you're beyond hope.

Too bad figuring out how to enter a simple IP address takes 4 screens and a chant. "

Dude, he asked about your OS for non-work everyday stuff. If you're adding IPs for non-work, everyday stuff, I'm not sure I want you bringing desserts to my next pot-luck dinner.

Besides, who uses a computer for non-work stuff anymore? LOL

And in an uncharacteristic bit of on-topicness, I have a 15" HP WORKstation with a Dreamcolor monitor, and it's insane. I'm definitely a 15" guy (ahem), but I've seen the 17" and it's even insaner...But note the emphasis on WORK-station, rather than LAP top. You would not want this on your lap for very long. It is definitely not the holy grail of a single, sleek monster device that gives you tippy-top performance in a form that will make you feel all tousled hair, t-shirt, Drew Barrymore's boyfriend.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 6:30:15 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Dude, he asked about your OS for non-work everyday stuff. If you're adding IPs for non-work, everyday stuff, I'm not sure I want you bringing desserts to my next pot-luck dinner. "

Actually, we are talking laptop and paid work, and life work.

While I work on my laptop sometimes, I also have my life stored on there as well, and I think that's what David is saying.

For my laptops (and I realize that not may people have to do this) I need multiple locations as our SAN requires specific IPs.

[Tim Wilson] "And in an uncharacteristic bit of on-topicness, I have a 15" HP WORKstation with a Dreamcolor monitor, and it's insane. I'm definitely a 15" guy (ahem), but I've seen the 17" and it's even insaner...But note the emphasis on WORK-station, rather than LAP top. You would not want this on your lap for very long. It is definitely not the holy grail of a single, sleek monster device that gives you tippy-top performance in a form that will make you feel all tousled hair, t-shirt, Drew Barrymore's boyfriend."

I wasn't kidding when I recommended it. I stand by my DreamColor as a monitor, and to have it in a computer would be totally awesome. I've looked really hard at it. If I was sure about the hell I was doing, that's what I would get.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 6:33:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "For my laptops (and I realize that not may people have to do this) I need multiple locations as our SAN requires specific IPs."

I think it's inefficient to manage IP addresses on the computers themselves. From an administration standpoint, I think it's far better to manage the assignment of IP addresses on the router and allow all the computers to use DHCP and be assigned the same address every time they connect. It's like centrally-managed static IPs.

This does not negate your original objection that setting a static IP in Windows is stupid hard.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 7:07:09 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think it's inefficient to manage IP addresses on the computers themselves. From an administration standpoint, I think it's far better to manage the assignment of IP addresses on the router and allow all the computers to use DHCP and be assigned the same address every time they connect. It's like centrally-managed static IPs."

That sounds totally out of my league.

It's much easier to have a document stored on the SAN that has an IP number that I can simply cross off (I have blocked x.x.x.1 - 50 on the incoming router. You also have to add this IP number to the "host" file in Windows (which is actually much easier to do in Windows than on a Mac, so there, OSX sucks).

In metaSAN, you have to add specific IPs to the software by hand. If a server was generating this, it would make it that much harder as I'd still have to type it in at some point.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 7:37:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "That sounds totally out of my league."

It's really easy on my router; YMMV. I need the MAC address of the network interface (which is C&P-able from that same administration page by looking at the DHCP client list), and then I can assign the IP address and hostname it will receive.

The computers all stay on DHCP and that IP and hostname are assigned them by the router when they connect.


[Jeremy Garchow] "In metaSAN, you have to add specific IPs to the software by hand. If a server was generating this, it would make it that much harder as I'd still have to type it in at some point."

You have to type it twice, no matter what.

I'm just suggesting you type it once in the SAN and once in the router instead of once on the SAN and once on the PC.

This gives you only two places you'll ever have to change IP addresses (SAN and router), instead of potentially dozens (SAN and individual computers).

Do I have to apologize on this forum for off-topics?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 7:53:32 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Do I have to apologize on this forum for off-topics?"

Maybe, but definitely not to me.

[Walter Soyka] "The computers all stay on DHCP and that IP and hostname are assigned them by the router when they connect.
"


I see. I don't think I have that capability unless it's called "static routing".

And then I'd need a MAC address too right?

So basically, this sends a specific IP to a MAC address via DHCP?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 8:15:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So basically, this sends a specific IP to a MAC address via DHCP?"

Yes.


[Jeremy Garchow] " I don't think I have that capability unless it's called "static routing"."

Static routing is something else -- it's a way to connect multiple routers. Basically, you manually describe the next hop a packet must take leaving one router and going to another instead of letting the routers determine that dynamically.

The feature I'm describing is a feature of your DHCP server, and may be called something like reserved addresses or DHCP reservations.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 8:22:05 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The feature I'm describing is a feature of your DHCP server, and may be called something like reserved addresses or DHCP reservations."

My router is probably bogus, then.


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David Lawrence
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 8:16:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So basically, this sends a specific IP to a MAC address via DHCP?"

Jeremy, it's super easy. Here's how I do exactly what Walter suggests with my Airport Extreme. The laptop IP address is reserved via MAC address:



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 8:26:25 pm

Thanks, David. Our Airport Extreme is only for non SAN'd wireless clients.

Everything else goes through the main router and adjacent hubs.


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David Lawrence
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 8:10:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Actually, we are talking laptop and paid work, and life work.

While I work on my laptop sometimes, I also have my life stored on there as well, and I think that's what David is saying."


Yep, that's right.

I do all my paid work on my laptop. I also use it for unpaid work. And non-work. Stuff like fun and life and personal things. All my email, photos, music, iphone apps, etc. etc. The work pays for everything else, but it's only a part of what the machine does for me. I'm way too comfortable with the Mac OS ecosystem to dump it all for Windows. Maybe Windows 8 will be awesome and Lion will turn me off so much I'll want to switch but I have a feeling that's not gonna happen.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Macs have never really been the fastest or most expandable. :)

The retina is fast, but it also has some really new features, and it's not cheap. "


Yes true. Never the fastest compared to the entire PC market. Maybe I should qualify by saying I want the fastest Mac I can get in my desired form factor. It used to be that that would be good enough to get the job done. Now, for the the first time, I'm starting to be a bit more concerned about hardware limits slowing me down.

The 2008 Unibody was an easy buy decision for me. It was exactly the machine I was waiting for. Even after the upgrades in 2009 and 2010, I was still happy because I have an Expresscard slot which I use with an ESATA port multiplier to run up to 5 ESATA drives. It's kept me going a long time.

But the new line up is a lot trickier. As Andy points out, the non-retina can be built to perform virtually as well as the retina. So the retina is really about the bleeding edge of display and form factor. But it points the direction of the future and that's a tempting place to be. My gut says it will be much better next year when the chips catch up.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Seriously though, I'd wait to see if someone has used cs6 with it. I've heard prelim reports that openCL kinda works. It will of course take an official update from Adobe to "bless" it but in since Ps CS6 was shown, it must be on their radar. "

Yes. The other reason to wait is that by next year, updates like this will be less of an issue across the board. Apple's change in display technology is pretty radical and it will take a while to ripple across the industry. I think it's ultimately a good thing but it won't happen overnight.

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can still buy refurb 17" that has official openCL support. "

I've never been a fan of the 17" form factor. To me it's too small to replace my 24" screen but too big to be comfortable to carry or use on a plane. I know lots of folks like it but it's not for me.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 26, 2012 at 8:24:40 pm

[David Lawrence] "I've never been a fan of the 17" form factor. To me it's too small to replace my 24" screen but too big to be comfortable to carry or use on a plane. I know lots of folks like it but it's not for me."

I see. Then a regular and new 15" should be perfect for you, minus the ExpressCard slot. They also still sell 15" refurbs of the older model with thunderbolt that are CS6 blessed. You'd still have to get the Sonnet thingy.

The only reason I consider a retina is that I don't want to go to less resolution than 17" (which I have been using since forever).

Here's an FCP7 retina report: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1161034

And the official Adobe stance: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/926591#926591


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Extremely Detailed Review of the rMBP
on Jun 23, 2012 at 6:01:17 pm

Pages 6 and 7 go on about how Apple did very active efforts to make the software side of it work, and the filtering of the GPU. Half of it is incomprehensible for me (I'm a filmmaker, not a complete techie although it interests me), so for everyone that says that Apple only is looking out for consumers these days, just read these pages and what they have done.
They made their utmost software R&D to not only bragg about a high-resolution display, but let it work very smart in their OS and their software packages. (and if you read about the 1080p viewer in FCP X and the way it works in Aperture, it's clear that they are not forgetting the professional)


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