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Jack Niedenthal
desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 7:47:31 am

Using iMac i7, Lion 10.7.4, FCPX 10.05 with all event/project files booting from an external hard drive. I did a lot of work on a full length feature film yesterday, everything went fine. Never had a problem until now.

Now, today, when I went to try to open FCPX it just hangs, and hangs. If I put away the external drive FCPX works fine. I have restarted the computer, etc. Same thing. It seems to hang when loading the events folder for the film from the external drive. I opened other files on the external drive so that is not the issue. If something is corrupted, how would I find it?????

I feel like jumping off a bridge. I could cry too.

What should I do? I would be eternally grateful if someone could help me solve this.

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Pat Horridge
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 8:24:29 am

We don't edit with FCPX, only do training for others on it currently.
But I find it hard to believe it doesn't have autosaves and a attic for recovery of work.
However I suspect it's all embedded in the database and that maybe the issue. But again if Apple have decided to use a database in that way they must have database management tools and recovery tools.

Not that I'd risk FCPX on something that had such a massive time input but I know you can save out a seperate database related to a particular project (sequence) and it would seem to make sense to do that periodically so you can at least recover to there.

Pat Horridge
Technical Director, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
VET
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T +44 (0)20 7505 4701 | F +44 (0)20 7505 4800 | E pat@vet.co.uk |
http://www.vet.co.uk | Lux Building 2-4 Hoxton Square London N1 6US


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Michael Hadley
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 10:29:19 am

Did you add any media yesterday that might have corrupted the projects? Stills that were larger than 4,000 pixels? Any non-standard footage with a weird codec like photo jpeg? That's caused corruption of events for me. Delete the offending media manually, manually transcode the media and then re-import.

If that's not issue here are some other things to try:

If you can at least open the project, select all, copy it, create a brand new project and then copy-paste the old timeline into.

Use Digital Rebellion's free app to trash use preferences for starters. Then repair permissions on the volume where the event and project stored (using Disk Utility). Then, use Disk Warrior to repair to directory on the same volume.

Good luck.


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 11:43:30 am

Thanks, Michael. Yes, I did put some pictures in. I ran digital rebellion's corrupt file finder and 3 of the jpgs were bad, so I removed them. FCPX now opens but when it goes to load the event I want I just get the beach ball. Other events open fine. Understand that I haven't even made the project yet, I just did all the work as compound clips and was planning on pasting all of those scenes into the project for the first time tonight...

When you say "manually transcode the media and then re-import." I don't even want to use that media anymore, I just want what I had before I tried to use the pictures... I tried repairing permissions on both discs (external and internal), but still have the beach ball issue. Should I trash preferences?

Thanks so much for helping.

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 12:02:42 pm

I used the Digital Rebellion preference trasher, still get the beach ball. This is so frustrating, this is a project that is over a year old and I face a July 13 deadline...

Open to suggestions, offering first born male children as a reward for anything that works...

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Steve Connor
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 12:47:52 pm

First make a copy of your event folder.

Then in the COPY of the event folder go to the "Original Media" folder you should find copies or aliases to the pictures you imported in there, drag them to the trash. then see what happens.

If you still get the problem then it may be another file you can try deleting the aliases to the last few files you added.

Worse case is that you may have to relink some good files in FCPX

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Steve Connor
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 12:58:29 pm

I forgot to mention you'll need to take the original copy of the event folder out of the Final Cut events folder temporarily.

Also if none of this works you could try something else

In the COPY of the event folder, drag the CurrentVersion.fcpevent file to the trash

Then go to the backups folder and rename the .fcpevent file in there to CurrentVerion.fcpevent and then move it to the root of the event folder.

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Michael Hadley
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 1:33:24 pm

Oh yes. Trash preferences. That's really the first step.


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 2:50:49 pm

I am now able to open FCPX, all the other events are fine, it is just the event I want to work with that won't work. Every time I click on it I just get the beach ball and eventually I have to force quit.

I am now making a copy of the event, unfortunately it is 700+GBs, so that will take hours.

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Bill Davis
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 5:49:56 pm

[Jack Niedenthal] "I am now able to open FCPX, all the other events are fine, it is just the event I want to work with that won't work. Every time I click on it I just get the beach ball and eventually I have to force quit.

I am now making a copy of the event, unfortunately it is 700+GBs, so that will take hours."


Jack,

That's probably your original problem. If you have 700gigs of content, then X is going to require a massive amount of processing time to transcode those unless you're trying to work with original media. And if you do that, depending on the file types, you're going to be working REALLY slow.

The whole point of how X operates is that it likes to see clean, properly compressed source files in the events - since everything that happens is just pointers back to that.

I suspect your beach ball issues is that X keeps trying to get it's underlying database sorted out - but with that massive amount of content, instead of giving it the time that it needs to process stuff behind the scenes, you keep force quitting so it never has the time it needs for that housekeeping.

I used to do the same thing a lot until I started to understand that X is kinda like an employee with mild OCD.

They sometimes perform poorly until unless everything is neatly arranged in the storeroom before they can come out on the floor to sell stuff - but if you just let them get those "back of the house" tasks done - they become content and turn out to be incredibly productive at their jobs.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 6:53:13 pm

Hi Bill,
So what should I do? Open the event, let the beach ball spin as it tries to sort itself out, then come back (many?) hours later to see if it is there spinning? How much time should I give it?

I guess one question I have is that if I had some corrupt files, then I get rid of them, when I go to open the event is it somehow looking for those files? Could that be what is taking so long? Could it have something to do with the files I have already rendered that no longer have the corrupt media there?

I was thinking of going through and trying to dump some of the rendered files, but I am not sure what that will do to the project. I guess I have to be careful not to get too desperate.

Thanks for your response.

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Bill Davis
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 7:07:24 pm

[Jack Niedenthal] "Hi Bill,
So what should I do? Open the event, let the beach ball spin as it tries to sort itself out, then come back (many?) hours later to see if it is there spinning? How much time should I give it?"


Well, what does the Render Manager say is happening behind the scenes?

(Clicking on the dashboard circular countdown timer)

That will typically show you what's happening in the background.

Give that some significant time. If it's incremented at all - say from zero to 1 percent over an hour - then at least you know that background processing is what's killing you.

Maybe with all that massive amount of footage, it would be smarter to break it up into smaller chunks and both import and process those so you can get to work - and then process similar smaller batches of stuff in chunks over days - rather than trying to suck in EVERYTHING and creating a transcoding queue that might take dozens or even hundreds of hours for the program to fully process?

The X process of reading content in and letting you work with rapid Proxies is a wonderful design - to a point. If you have a normal length program, it's going to make your productivity soar.

But I wouldn't mistake it on a HUGE project for "hey, all all my stuff's here so it must be ready to go!" because it's often not. At least until it gets all the transcoding done you functionally told it to do when you linked it to some MASSIVE pot of content.

Let us know how things proceed.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 21, 2012 at 7:31:32 pm

the meter is at 100%, it appears nothing is going on in the background. I just have a little window at the top that says "loading MyFilm" event.

I am going to go to work today and just leave it like that. Last night I let it go for about 4 hours, but it never got loaded.

I have 6 other very small events that open fine, FCPX opens fine, I only get the issues when I go to load the "big" 700+GB event.

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Marcus Samuel-Gaskin
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 22, 2012 at 9:30:11 am

Could be a long shot, but there can be issues with customised keyboard layouts. Try this

http://fcpx.tv/bugs.html

and this

http://fcpx.tv/troubleshooting.html


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 1:53:32 am

I just had a marvelous experience. Out of the blue I get an email from "Noah from Apple" asking if he might help resolve my issues. I almost peed myself. I have been working with Apple computers since 1984, have had participated in many Apple discussion forums over the years, but no one from Apple ever contacted me out of the blue--on a forum that is not even Apple sponsored-- and asked if he could "help." Man.

Anyway, it turns out that he believed the issue was with the events folder getting too bloated as I was working on 75 scenes for a full length feature and had them all as compound clips. I was starting to consolidate by combining a series of clips, for example, combining the compound clip for scenes 1-8 with scenes 9-14 so I could watch them play through. At any rate, this got way to bloated for FCPX to deal with.

First, Noah had me send them the Activity Monitor files for FCPX to see why it hangs when the program opens. Then I sent them the system profile from my computer and a snapshot of some of the FCPX files from my hard drive. Then I had to upload the currentversion.fcpevent file. They are still working on that and will let me know if it can be fixed.

Next, he had me take out the corrupted/bloated currentversion.fcpevent file, gave it a new name and had me put it outside the event folder as "original_currentversion,fcpevent", then we put in a one week old version, renaming it currentversion.fcpevent. It opened! I am back from the ledge of a tall building! My wife is no longer afraid to leave the knives around!

And... I am buying my firstborn male child a plane ticket so he can go live with Noah, as promised.

And thank you, thank you, thank you CREATIVE COW and the fine people on this website!!!!!!!!!

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Steve Connor
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 8:03:58 am

Jack, glad you solved it and you also had a good experience with Apple as well. I'd just like to point out however that someone had already suggested swapping out the project file in a previous response on here!

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 8:38:40 am

Steve, yes this has been a huge relief. I should add that I followed that suggestion above and I couldn't get it to work (not sure why)... Noah went through it step by step via Skype, even though it was well past his work hours on a Friday, as I live in Micronesia and am in a really crazy time zone.

Well, I have to go burn some incense in Noah's honor now. What a day!

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Craig Seeman
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 5:57:27 pm

I wonder if this was a case of individual Event bloat.
Would the lesson learned be to work across multiple Events?

The old FCP think was putting everything into one project. That too could result in project bloat. People would then break it up into multiple smaller projects. The problem was such projects were independent for the most part.

In new FCPX think may be that, since any number of Events can tie to a Project and any number of Projects can tie to an Event (it's that relational database thing) that it should be very easy to work across multiple smaller Events. In other words, in a multi scene movie or documentary, one might want to make each Scene into an Event. It's easy enough to create new Events and move things around, much more so than in FCP7. It should be easy enough to break Events up as one progresses through, as needed.

All this cries for a more sophisticated Event manager though (even more than the one by Intelligent Assistance). I can't help but think this is on the FCPX OSXSAN roadmap.



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Craig Seeman
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 5:48:28 pm

[Jack Niedenthal] "I just had a marvelous experience. Out of the blue I get an email from "Noah from Apple" asking if he might help resolve my issues."

OT But . . . Out of the blue . . . does this mean Noah from Apple is monitoring the forum here . . . or some other mode of communication occurred such as a support request? Sorry for being off topic but I this is interesting to me.



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Steve Connor
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 5:58:33 pm

[Craig Seeman] "OT But . . . Out of the blue . . . does this mean Noah from Apple is monitoring the forum here . . . or some other mode of communication occurred such as a support request? Sorry for being off topic but I this is interesting to me.
"


It's been reported before that Apple have responded to problems aired on forums, I've had experience of this as well. They might not be as obviously active as Adobe on here, but they are around and in my experience with them, they clearly care about the performance of the product

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Craig Seeman
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 6:14:40 pm

[Steve Connor] "hey are around and in my experience with them, they clearly care about the performance of the product"

I don't doubt that at all. I think it's important to point that out with so many people saying "Apple doesn't listen." It is clear their ears are to this forum. It's good when forum participants note that Apple is communicating privately to forum issues posts.



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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 7:35:25 pm

Craig, honestly, it was totally out of the blue. Imagine being on the edge of a building ready to jump because you think you have lost an entire year's worth of work, then you get an email that says, "Hi, I'm Noah from Apple, would you like me to help solve your problem?" Yeah baby.

Here is what I have done to rearrange my full length feature film, for what it is worth:

First, I am bummed because I liked the idea of working with compound clips, now I am scared to death of them because they cause immense bloating.

I have created 3 new projects for my feature film, each about 30 minutes in length:
Scenes 1-19
Scenes 20-45
Scenes 46-75

I did "select all and copy" from all the compound clips (as opposed to dragging the entire compound clip onto the timeline) and pasted the scenes in their entirety into the project timelines representing the scenes above.

I created 3 new events for each of the three projects and dragged the corresponding compound clips into them (deleting the compound clips from the original event with all the media in it).

So I now have 4 events for the film, one with all the media, 3 with the compound clips. Though I really don't need the compound clips anymore as I am now just going to work strictly in the project timelines.

When I import new media for the film I will load them in the new event that corresponds to the scenes the media is intended for. The 3 events with the compound clips will just serve as a backup for now but at some point I may trash them as they aren't really needed. I was told every time you edit them (blading, working with sound and color, etc) it bloats the hell out of the compound clip.

When I am all done and satisfied with the 3 sections of the film I intend to copy/paste all three project timelines into a new "final" project timeline, then burn the DVD. Then I will go drain a case of beer and stare at the moon and wonder why I put myself through all this.

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 7:45:09 pm

Also, what I do now is after I am done working, I quit FCPX, then make sure it opens again and then quit a second time before backing up so I don't make the mistake of backing up a corrupt event/file again.

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Steve Connor
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 7:49:10 pm

Jack, you could also make copies of your CurrentVersion.fcpproject and CurrentVersion.fcpevent files every couple of days as well. I do this on long projects

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Jack Niedenthal
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 7:59:57 pm

Steve, this is a great idea because one of the 3 things that Apple requested to use to analyze my issue was a copy of the CurrentVersion.fcpproject. And the way I eventually solved my issue is we went back to an "Old Version" of that file.

Jack Niedenthal
Microwave Films of the Marshall Islands
http://www.microwavefilms.org
iMac i7 using Lion 10.7.x, HPX 170 using only one 64GB card
I live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, YOU are my only resource.


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Steve Connor
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 8:06:58 pm

It would be good if FCPX kept a larger amount of projects in the backup folder and hopefully we'll see this added. But if it isn't I'm sure an enterprising third party developer could automate the process!

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Jon Chappell
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 10:21:32 pm

[Steve Connor] "
It would be good if FCPX kept a larger amount of projects in the backup folder and hopefully we'll see this added. But if it isn't I'm sure an enterprising third party developer could automate the process!"


It already exists:
http://www.digitalrebellion.com/proversioner

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metdata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...


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Craig Seeman
Re: desperate: FCPX hangs on boot up
on Jun 23, 2012 at 8:13:30 pm

[Jack Niedenthal] "Craig, honestly, it was totally out of the blue."

Confirmation that Apple truly is omniscient. ;->

[Jack Niedenthal] "I created 3 new events for each of the three projects and dragged the corresponding compound clips into them (deleting the compound clips from the original event with all the media in it). "

I think this is key. I think we should learn this as standard procedure. I think FCPX is designed to make this part of a typical large job workflow design. It's much more able to do this than FCP7 was. It's facilitated by the database design.


[Jack Niedenthal] "I was told every time you edit them (blading, working with sound and color, etc) it bloats the hell out of the compound clip."

I do hope Apple addresses this. In any case I view this kind of compound clips as sort of "temp" workspaces.

Baring change in Compound Clip bloat or function, we need to think about how to take advantage of them without succumbing to the bloat. I would use them (more or less a you might) as scene or segment work areas not so much to be used as a replacement for clips in Projects (timelines). Once dropped into a Project/Timeline one should break them apart.

The tricky part is if one really needs to divide them into "two work areas" by creating a new Event based Compound Clip, is how to do that without bloat. I don't have an answer for that as of yet. This is all part of learning FCPX workflow which is woefully under "tutored" compared to the wealth of "feature based" tutorials.

So the digestible version would be:
• A Job can have multiple Events in many cases if large.
• Event based Compound Clips are work areas that are to be dropped into Projects/Timelines and broken apart, not used as Clips.
• We need to examine how to handle Event based Compound Clips when they need to be divided, to avoid bloat.

[Jack Niedenthal] "Then I will go drain a case of beer and stare at the moon and wonder why I put myself through all this."

Because you are the pioneer that is trial blazing a workflow that we are all learning from. I don't think FCPX is particularly handicapped (FCP7 is much more so in my opinion). We do need to think more about workflow for large projects. I might approach such job a bit differently that how you are handling it now (because you're educating me).

Personally I wouldn't want to go the route of cutting/pasting between Projects/Timelines but you may have to at the moment. One can still have a master Project (I think) and use Event based Compound Clips as work areas, Parented by their Events.

BTW I'm using the word "Job" as a super structure since the "true parent" is of the collection of Events. A Job is a collection of Events which have Event based Compound Clip work areas. All of them can be tied to a Master Project/Timeline. I'm not saying this is a certain way to go but I do think we need to explore the most efficient workflow which avoids the "Single Event" thinking and the using of Event Compound Clips as sources.



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