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More gasoline on the fire

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Alan Okey
More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:46:36 am

Yes, there has already been a post about the RED HP workstation, but it wasn't presented in quite as sensationalist of a manner:

RED Gives up on Apple, Teams up with Adobe, NVIDIA and HP

"While Apple is a powerhouse in eyes of consumers, the company decided to give a silent treatment to its core audience, designers and content creators. The company was legendary in Hollywood – but not anymore."

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2012/6/18/red-gives-up-on-apple2c-team...

Enjoy!


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Andrew Richards
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:30:02 am

[Alan Okey] "the company decided to give a silent treatment to its core audience, designers and content creators"

Erstwhile core audience.

The clear takeaway is that the meme of Apple giving the cold shoulder to its pre-post-PC-era devotees has taken hold in the zeitgeist.

Best,
Andy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:10:25 am

We have seen this type of color commentary before

(link)

Warning, old arguments abound.


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Andrew Richards
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 4:49:03 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "We have seen this type of color commentary before"

Well, well, this guy Theo Valich has an axe to grind then. I have seen the meme elsewhere, but this example is hardly a mainstream or zeitgeist representative in the context you provide.

Thanks.

Best,
Andy


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John Davidson
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:20:02 am

Speaking of giving up....

3K for $3k anyone?

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:39:31 am

[John Davidson] "Speaking of giving up....

3K for $3k anyone?
"


*Shakes fist*

Oh you. You and your humorous logic.


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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:55:09 am

[John Davidson] "3K for $3k anyone?"

2.5K for $3K lacks a certain je ne sais quoi.

6K for $6K is the new 3K for $3K for the Scarlet set.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John Davidson
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:04:35 am

"6K for $6K is the new 3K for $3K for the Scarlet set."

Well that changes everything.

Again...:)

Now I'm saving up for an FX700 - and I had given up on Sony YEARS ago. We'll all be back eating apples soon enough!

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Craig Seeman
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:21:01 am

I keep hearing about Tekserve selling Windows computers from random places but there's not even the slightest hint.
http://www.tekserve.com/



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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:43:02 am

[Craig Seeman] "I keep hearing about Tekserve selling Windows computers from random places but there's not even the slightest hint.
http://www.tekserve.com/"


It's coming.

http://www.tekserve.com/business/Partners/HP

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:51:06 am

Interesting how the word "Windows" is never mentioned.



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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:01:21 am

[Craig Seeman] "Interesting how the word "Windows" is never mentioned."

Why? They don't talk about OS X on the Apple page.

From http://www.tekserve.com/business/Partners/Apple [link]:
"Tekserve's partnership with Apple began in 1987, as the first repair shop in Manhattan. Today, we stock the largest selection of Apple computer configurations for sale in NYC. Tekserve is the largest Apple Specialist store in the country."

From http://www.tekserve.com/business/Partners/HP [link]:
"Introducing the fastest workstation available for any workflow—preinstalled and preconfigured with all the right hardware, software and custom-configuration restore technology, and offering accelerated post-production processing and lightning-fast real-time 4K visualization wherever it’s needed. It’s the Tekserve Series Workstation, RED Certified and Recommended, and custom-built by Tekserve, featuring components from industry leaders including RED, HP, NVIDIA, Intel, and Tekserve—specially tuned and optimized for Adobe Creative Suite 6, but prepared to shred any software workflow tolls."

When you spend most of your time in your applications, the OS really doesn't matter that much.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 4:24:11 am

But there's a fair amount of OSX stuff on their business site
http://www.tekserve.com/business/Knowledge/Mac-Deployment/Best-Practices-fo...

http://www.tekserve.com/business/Events/3707521296/Welcome-to-Mac---Featuri...

Mountain Lion and iOS6 as well
http://www.tekserve.com/business/blog

and even
http://www.tekserve.com/business/Blog/apple-authorized-retailers-help-more-...

So they certainly do mention OSX (and even iOS).

So the ONE place they can mention Windows as a positive attribute, they don't. It's as if it might scare away the customers.



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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 5:06:45 am

[Craig Seeman] "So the ONE place they can mention Windows as a positive attribute, they don't. It's as if it might scare away the customers."

I think you're reading too much into this. The Tekserve HP partner page I linked to is a high-level overview, which I tried to show by also linking to the Tekserve Apple partner page. When comparing these two similar pages, note that the OS is not mentioned on either one.

This discussion is premature. Let's resume when they start promoting their HP workstations more actively.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 5:25:21 am

[Walter Soyka] "I think you're reading too much into this"

I was being a bit cheeky about it.
I do a lot of Mac shopping at Tekserve and bought my MacPro there amongst other things. I was talking to them about Windows support going back a number of years . . . as I bootcamp my Macs. When they showed cross platform software it was only Mac versions.

While they do promote Windows on Mac, for the longest time they only sold Windows 32bit as part of their installs. I had a couple of very frustrating discussions with them about that. I certainly didn't share their opinion of Windows and it's role in their business or mine. Obviously I bought my Windows 64bit disks elsewhere.



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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:50:59 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I was being a bit cheeky about it."

Sorry for jumping on you, mate. The cheekiness whooshed over my head.


[Craig Seeman] "While they do promote Windows on Mac, for the longest time they only sold Windows 32bit as part of their installs. I had a couple of very frustrating discussions with them about that."

32-bit -- ew.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:23:36 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Sorry for jumping on you, mate. The cheekiness whooshed over my head."

[Walter Soyka] "32-bit -- ew."

Granted my attitude towards their "announcement" is based on direct prior experience I've had withe them but they do provide significant business support for OSX integration. I've seen no history of WIndows integration in broader workflows and their view of Windows 7 was simply as a "plugin" for ancillary functions to Macs to the point where they were even hobbling their bootcamp and virtualization support (IMHO).

When such a company announces their single PC based product and doesn't even mention the OS and their support of it in a broader workflow, I can't help but be suspicious. While I hold them in very high regard for their Mac support I'm skeptical of their Windows support. They don't seem to show any history or even current desire to support WIndows only or Windows dominant facilities. My own guess is that their approach would be to sell a "RED PC" for an otherwise Mac environment. Yes just my guess but there's nothing to indicate otherwise on their business site.



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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:20:14 pm

[Craig Seeman] "So the ONE place they can mention Windows as a positive attribute, they don't. It's as if it might scare away the customers."

Quite true, they are worried about scaring away Apple customers. At the demo they emphasized how little you have to interact with windows and they configured the opening screen to look as much like OSX as they could get.

This is not strange because they are selling to an Apple audience, and it's pretty well established that as a group these folks are terrified of change, so a little hand holding and soothing seems to be in order.

On the other hand, most cross platform folks don't seem to give a sh*t and just want the most bang for the buck.

Go figure.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:43:28 pm

[Herb Sevush] "On the other hand, most cross platform folks don't seem to give a sh*t and just want the most bang for the buck."

Yes, exactly. That that wasn't their position towards Windows is where I base my sentiments about them. In 2008 when I bought my MacPro, it was a good bootcamp candidate. While not the most beastly beast on the market it certainly was a capable 8 Core Windows computer and I wasn't going to have it hobbled by a 32 bit Windows OS.

These days I can't say any Mac desktop is the equivalent. The iMac being early 2011 vintage and MacPro 2010. Until something gets updated, one would get more bang for the buck buying a WIndows computer in addition to buying a Mac . . . and as far as buying a Mac Desktop, my purchases are on hold until Apple shows a new Desktop update (even an iMac). This coming from someone who obviously likes FCPX yet, has no issue at all working in WIndows as there's plenty of things happening there that don't run as well or at all on Mac OS.

I don't doubt that this position is part of what pushed Tekserve but I don't see anything else beyond this one computer which shows they've embraced a cross platform professional environment. Your description of the show matches what I'd expect their position would be in this. This doesn't sound like a Windows VAR.



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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:58:33 pm

[Craig Seeman] "That that wasn't their position towards Windows is where I base my sentiments about them. In 2008 when I bought my MacPro"

Quite right, you couldn't find a more Mac-centric VAR in the world than Tekserve, they are more Apple than most Apple stores. I think a lot of their customers think they are an Apple store, with a retro look. But like for the rest of us, this last year has raised some questions in their Pro department, and the answers they are coming up with are more than a mite surprising.

[Craig Seeman] "Your description of the show matches what I'd expect their position would be in this. This doesn't sound like a Windows VAR."

I doubt they will ever be a Windows VAR. They will always push most of their customers to Apple products. But the fact is they are embracing the Red-HP and trying to find ways to make it accessible for their OSX clientele.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Gary Huff
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:14:06 am

[Craig Seeman] "Interesting how the word "Windows" is never mentioned."

Why would it be in that announcement? You fanbois say the oddest things.


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Bernard Newnham
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 8:10:46 am

Because windows is taken as read, that's all. If they used some non-standard OS - Ubuntu Friendly Frog, or something - they would make a deal of it, but Windows is what you would expect unless you only live in a Mac world.

And - for those who are making their first steps out of the closed society that is Apple - if you go to a company and they don't sell the exact flavour of PC that you want, go elsewhere. There are millions of PC sellers all looking to please you, who will happily build to your spec, probably in just a few hours.

And if that still doesn't work, just build the one you want. That nice new Asus Z77 board might be a good place to start.

Bernie


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Chris Harlan
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 9:16:05 am

[Bernard Newnham] "And - for those who are making their first steps out of the closed society that is Apple -"

Yes, this trailer from The Village reminds me quite a bit of that "closed society that is Apple."

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3572826393/


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Keith Koby
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 11:12:43 am

I don't think you'll ever see an HP in the front window or on the floor in there. The tekserve pro guys will definitely sell the z computers to you if you want them. They are after all "in the business of selling, designing and supporting creative solutions" for their customers. On the other hand, some of their customers are still firm believers in apple computers for several reasons.


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Craig Seeman
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 11:56:29 am

[Keith Koby] " don't think you'll ever see an HP in the front window or on the floor in there."
Based on my experience I'd say the same.

[Keith Koby] "some of their customers are still firm believers in apple computers for several reasons."

Actually not the customers, the company itself, based on my experience. I really want to avoid posting some of things they said to me but I'll just say they didn't believe Windows 7 64bit was necessary and would not install it on their bootcamped systems, only 32bit.

Given they're a VAR I suspect the only reason they're doing this is that they don't have a viable MacPro to sell to professionals. While they sell all Mac based (cross platform) NLEs. They are probably more strongly behind FCPX than any other VAR. They've held several FCPX events that took over the entire store packed to overflow crowds . . . which I suspect was more due to their marketing that Apple's.



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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:26:11 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Given they're a VAR I suspect the only reason they're doing this is that they don't have a viable MacPro to sell to professionals. "

Yes, absolutely. That says it all. They're in business, and as much as the would prefer to sell an OSX solution, there are none to be had for a certain market segment. So rather than pray for rain, they're digging a well, because in the end it's water we need, not the future idea of a more perfect hydration device.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:37:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Yes, absolutely. That says it all. They're in business, and as much as the would prefer to sell an OSX solution, there are none to be had for a certain market segment. So rather than pray for rain, they're digging a well, because in the end it's water we need, not the future idea of a more perfect hydration device."

As someone who says that a closed system is business insanity, have a real good look at that HP Red thing.

If you aren't shooting Red, it is way more overpriced than the more flexible MacPro you were "forced" to buy and only really helps to spend that much dough if you're shooting and posting red only.

A quadro 6000 GPU would serve most editors much better than a proprietary red rocket and red card readers.


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:49:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you aren't shooting Red, it is way more overpriced than the more flexible MacPro you were "forced" to buy and only really helps to spend that much dough if you're shooting and posting red only. "

I don't shoot Red, I have no interest specifically in that workstation. HP workstations are too highly priced for my wallet, although you are getting incredible quality.

What is significant to me is that Tekserve, the biggest all Mac VAR in NYC is now getting behind a Windows workstation, primarily because they don't think Apple is now, or ever again, going to serve the needs of a certain market. That doesn't mean they are dropping Macs, but for the first time ever they are acknowledging that for X% of their clients Apple does not have a proper solution.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:55:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "What is significant to me is that Tekserve, the biggest all Mac VAR in NYC is now getting behind a Windows workstation, primarily because they don't think Apple is now, or ever again, going to serve the needs of a certain market. That doesn't mean they are dropping Macs, but for the first time ever they are acknowledging that for X% of their clients Apple does not have a proper solution."

It is essentially a turn key operation for the red faithful.

That's about as far as it goes.

You could have a very similar config on a 2010 MacPro, the card readers will be external. The red rocket does most of the work here.

While it looks like a sweet machine, it is not a generic windows work station.

If you call TekServe and you want windows but don't shoot/post Red, you're not going to get very far.


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:04:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is essentially a turn key operation for the red faithful. That's about as far as it goes. "

Yes, but considering that they are Tekserve, that is very far indeed. Nothing like this would have happened a year ago.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you call TekServe and you want windows but don't shoot/post Red, you're not going to get very far."

Le me put that another way - if you don't shoot Red and want windows why would you call Tekserve?

And the add on to all that is the key word - "yet" - you wouldn't call them now, but they are moving in a direction that I don't believe is going to be altered by Tim Cook's awesome solution of 2013, so you might be calling them in the future.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:25:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] "And the add on to all that is the key word - "yet" - you wouldn't call them now, but they are moving in a direction that I don't believe is going to be altered by Tim Cook's awesome solution of 2013, so you might be calling them in the future."

I see. So future speculation on all things non-Mac is a shoe in.

Got it.

All I'm saying is, this is essentially a branded turnkey computer. Sure, you could buy it an strip put all the stuff you just bought, but what's the point?

Why would I call TekServe? Why wouldn't I? They keep saying they will have windows machines, you yourself promoted the guy who was so giddy about selling HP machines, so why not?

I'll tell you why you need a VAR for Windows machines.

Go try and build a computer on HP.com. I know just enough about this to get me in trouble, and HP.com is an absolute fiasco.

I've tried to build a z820 and a laptop, and rage quit my browser in frustration.

If pc's are in my future, a VAR will be where I need to go as the amount of PC permutations is stifling.


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:52:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I see. So future speculation on all things non-Mac is a shoe in. "

I didn't know that only Craig was allowed to speculate. I'll see to it that I stop until I get my license.

[Jeremy Garchow] "All I'm saying is, this is essentially a branded turnkey computer."

Yes.

[Jeremy Garchow] " They keep saying they will have windows machines, you yourself promoted the guy who was so giddy about selling HP machines, so why not?"

An apparent misunderstanding.

They guy who was giddy was an HP rep speaking directly to the audience at the Adobe roadshow. He mentioned many things, the Z1 and the Red-HP were the most prominent.

He did not mention Tekserve, who were in a booth down the hall. I had a separate conversation with them, which was interesting to me because they are the VAR who sold me my first 2 FCP / Mac systems. The essence of my conversation with Tekserve was that I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything on the MacPro side because they weren't, and they were trying to come up with PC solutions for their old Mac clients, and ways to serve them that would take the sting out of switching to windows. The HP-Red was just their first step.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Go try and build a computer on HP.com. I know just enough about this to get me in trouble, and HP.com is an absolute fiasco."

Absolutely true, been there, done that.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I've tried to build a z820 and a laptop, and rage quit my browser in frustration. If pc's are in my future, a VAR will be where I need to go as the amount of PC permutations is stifling."

Yes, the problem with choice is choosing. Using the Apple Store on line is great, unfortunately the computers are not. With PCs you generally have to talk to somebody - very retro I know, but it works, quickly and easily. You might want a VAR, you might just want a salesman. If you're looking for a VAR you might want to try these guys:

http://www.pugetsystems.com/
http://www.adkvideoediting.com/

They make it pretty easy and they come highly recommended.

On the other hand if I were in the market for a PC workstation and I hadn't just recently bought both a Raid and an LTO, my first option would be the Promax One.

http://www.promax.com/s-149-promax-one.aspx

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:59:50 pm

The One in ProMax One stands for One Man Band.

Awesome specs, specific need.

I need a compelling reason to switch to pcs. No one has given it to me.


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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:20:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I need a compelling reason to switch to pcs. No one has given it to me."

Likewise, I needed a compelling reason to stay exclusively on Macs. Apple couldn't give me one.

You carefully considered a platform switch, and you dismissed it, because it is legitimately not the best choice for you right now.

You and I have different needs, so why wouldn't we have different solutions?

I've found that a PC workstation is a viable option for creative production work. That doesn't mean it's the best solution for everyone, as you show. All I'm suggesting is that a PC workstation running Windows can be a good solution worth examining for some of us here who would have not considered PCs a year or two ago.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 4:11:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Likewise, I needed a compelling reason to stay exclusively on Macs. Apple couldn't give me one.

You carefully considered a platform switch, and you dismissed it, because it is legitimately not the best choice for you right now.

You and I have different needs, so why wouldn't we have different solutions?

I've found that a PC workstation is a viable option for creative production work. That doesn't mean it's the best solution for everyone, as you show. All I'm suggesting is that a PC workstation running Windows can be a good solution worth examining for some of us here who would have not considered PCs a year or two ago."


And this is fine, Walter. It's a decision.

I am tried of people saying that PCs are more open. You have a few more options, but the handcuffs are on pretty quick once you click that buy button, especially when you start actually using the software and choose PCIe hardware.

By the way, PCs are not totally dismissed here. So far, the compelling reason isn't there.

I am actively searching for it. I get the CPU/GPU debate. PCs win and according to me (ha!), always have, in this regard, but is that the compelling reason?

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 4:45:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am tried of people saying that PCs are more open. You have a few more options, but the handcuffs are on pretty quick once you click that buy button, especially when you start actually using the software and choose PCIe hardware."

Practically speaking, I'm with you here.

Our workflows certainly tie us down somewhere. I can bounce back and forth between a PC and Mac all day, but I'm still relying on Adobe and Maxon software that would not be so easily replaced.

But that's not really how I read the "PCs are more open" line -- to me, that's about more interchangeable choices from a market of options. I guess my read on that is quite a bit narrower than your broader holistic workflow perspective. If the hardware doesn't really figure in the decision, then having more open hardware choices won't provide any benefit.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Frank Gothmann
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:02:54 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "As someone who says that a closed system is business insanity, have a real good look at that HP Red thing.

If you aren't shooting Red, it is way more overpriced than the more flexible MacPro you were "forced" to buy and only really helps to spend that much dough if you're shooting and posting red only.

A quadro 6000 GPU would serve most editors much better than a proprietary red rocket and red card readers."


The RED z820 comes with either a Quadro 4000, Q5000 OR you can also upgrade to a 6000 when you buy (not afterwards and toss the old card out). If you don't shoot RED there is obviously no reason to buy the RED edition, you'd simply but the regular z820 with all possible GPU etc. options you could possible want. How on earth is a MacPro more flexible with regards to IO, speed and upgradability?
If it's the price, get a z800 with Westmare Chips and you still have more expandability, upgradability, io and GPU options.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:16:55 pm

Frank, we are talking about the red Hp computer and nothing else.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:18:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Frank, we are talking about the red Hp computer and nothing else."

So do I. I don't get your point.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:37:20 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "So do I. I don't get your point."

Do you work with Red products exclusively Frank, from production to grade?

If not, why would you buy this?


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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:53:00 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Do you work with Red products exclusively Frank, from production to grade? If not, why would you buy this?"

You wouldn't. This system is purpose-built for RED, and it's coming soon to a DIT cart near you.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:01:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "You wouldn't. This system is purpose-built for RED, and it's coming soon to a DIT cart near you."

It should be called the DIT, but that seems even more limiting than red only post.


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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:35:39 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It should be called the DIT, but that seems even more limiting than red only post."

How do all the partners in this benefit?

A turnkey system like this with such a narrowly targeted niche audience is like training wheels for Tekserve. They're a VAR, but Apple isn't giving them much opportunity to add value. They're new to Windows. By selling this machine, they get to dip their toe in before they dive. They can see the whole channel, from a broader relationship with HP as a supplier, to their ability to sell PCs to a Mac crowd, to their customer's support needs. Sell a little, learn a lot. They can beta test their own supply, sales and support systems before taking them into production with other workstation options.

Shooting RED requires a specific post workflow with some extra steps that other competing cameras do not. This gives RED a legitimate presence, both for on-set support and in post, instead of requiring their customers to roll their own systems from a collection of DIY parts.

HP has been aggressively targeting the DCC (digital content creation) market for years with the Z-series of workstation. This is a chance for them to continue pushing for that market at Apple's expense.]

Looks like opportunities for wins all around.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Frank Gothmann
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:56:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Do you work with Red products exclusively Frank, from production to grade?

If not, why would you buy this?"


I don't. And because of that I wouldn't buy this machine. How is this different from an Avid turnkey system, ie. z820 with Nitris hardware? You obviously wouldn't buy one of those if you had no intention of using MC or Symphony.

But it is nevertheless just a base z820 with a additional components. Nothing else is special there which is my point. A worksation is supposed to flexible and versatile, adding some stuff makes is perfect for something specific without limiting possiblities for other areas via design choice that might cause just that.

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iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:23:44 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "I don't. And because of that I wouldn't buy this machine. How is this different from an Avid turnkey system, ie. z820 with Nitris hardware? You obviously wouldn't buy one of those if you had no intention of using MC or Symphony.

But it is nevertheless just a base z820 with a additional components. Nothing else is special there which is my point. A worksation is supposed to flexible and versatile, adding some stuff makes is perfect for something specific without limiting possiblities for other areas via design choice that might cause just that."


Frank, I get it.

We are taking TekServe and Windows.

I find it ironic that people are looking down at Mac for being a closed system, and the alternatives that are being shown are more closed systems with a swappable GPU which you can do with a Mac, there are more limits, but you can still do it and the Mac and Nvidia wall is slowly being rippe down (have a look at Apple's newest computer).

People say they aren't tied to one vendor on PCs, but when you get right down to it, you are. You have some more options, but when you buy and commit to an NLE, you are tied to that. Resolve ties you to Decklink, you are tied to windows, that boot drive is tied to that machine, those motherboard drivers will work on that motherboard, as "open" as Adobe, the more you press that system and need to step out of an adobe app, the more you are tied. If you want SDI out of speed grade, you are tied to an extremely expensive Nvidia GPU.

So, while people might perceive PCs as being more open, I challenge you to prove it.

I'm not saying there's merit to owning a faster PC where I can swap a GPU in three years, that does not make it a "better" decision. More flexible? Perhaps, but that doesnt make it all better considering I can run everything I want and more on a Mac including windows, and a few programs that are currently Mac only.

Then there's (wait for it) Thunderbolt. On a Mac, I can swap "PCIe" device by swapping a cable. This means I can use AJA for all things capture and Smoke, and blackmagic for Resolve if I so choose.

Truly, the only missing piece as I see it on Macs is GPU and CPU speed. That's fairly important, don't get me wrong, but it's not everything.

Notice I didn't even mention FCPX until right now. I guess I see pcs as being more open as well as I can see through the wool over my starry Mac eyes.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:41:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I find it ironic that people are looking down at Mac for being a closed system, and the alternatives that are being shown are more closed systems with a swappable GPU which you can do with a Mac, there are more limits, but you can still do it and the Mac and Nvidia wall is slowly being rippe down (have a look at Apple's newest computer)."

So get me my sandy bridge xeons and PICe 3 on a Mac and we'll call it a day.

[Jeremy Garchow] " I guess I see pcs as being more open as well as I can see through the wool over my starry Mac eyes. "

If Dell fails, next time I need a computer it doesn't change my workflow at all, I buy from someone else. That's why I feel free to buy from small VAR's. If my computer dies and they have gone out of business, I get another computer from another VAR and I don't miss a beat. As new technology comes around if my computer maker doesn't grow in the direction I like I change to someone who does and in a day I can swap out computers and be up and running.

Is that the openness you get with Apple - they don't like Blu-Ray, no blu-ray. They don't like USB3, you don't get USB3. They want to skip a generation of Xeons, well you can just wait. You want Cuda - well Cuda this.

Yes, on PCs you can't swap out your boot drive, and you have to re-install things when going from computer to computer. That's little to pay for getting the computer you want when you want it. Would that I had that option these past few months.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:50:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Yes, on PCs you can't swap out your boot drive, and you have to re-install things when going from computer to computer."

Does anyone actually boot from a different model Mac's drive with any regularity?

After you boot, what do you do? Won't serialized applications fail, since they'll be authorized for a different Mac?

Is there a reason why a cloned drive isn't good enough that I'm not seeing?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:57:50 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Does anyone actually boot from a different model Mac's drive with any regularity? After you boot, what do you do? Won't serialized applications fail, since they'll be authorized for a different Mac?"

When I got my new Mac I just popped the drive from my old one and threw it in and set it as the startup drive. No authorization problems yet. I don't doubt that the same could be done with a cloned drive - isn't that why they call it a clone?

As for PC's I was always under the impression that you couldn't do that with windows, although I haven't tried it lately.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 4:24:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Does anyone actually boot from a different model Mac's drive with any regularity?

After you boot, what do you do? Won't serialized applications fail, since they'll be authorized for a different Mac?

Is there a reason why a cloned drive isn't good enough that I'm not seeing?"


Depends on how they are serialized. If serialized to hardware such an en0, then yes, otherwise, no.

I boot to troubleshoot, or repair permissions, or boot from a different OS.

I boot to clone from one system to another.

If you get a new Mac and need to roll back the system but are firmware updated out of it, you can simply add the old hard drive in the new Mac and it boots.

It's mostly for system upgrade/maintenance/OS installs. I do it a lot, but at this stage, I have a lot of "test disks" to test all this new stuff. Since Windows 7 is good for eight more years, PCs probably won't need this functionality. :)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 4:06:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "If Dell fails, next time I need a computer it doesn't change my workflow at all, I buy from someone else. That's why I feel free to buy from small VAR's. If my computer dies and they have gone out of business, I get another computer from another VAR and I don't miss a beat. As new technology comes around if my computer maker doesn't grow in the direction I like I change to someone who does and in a day I can swap out computers and be up and running.

Is that the openness you get with Apple - they don't like Blu-Ray, no blu-ray. They don't like USB3, you don't get USB3. They want to skip a generation of Xeons, well you can just wait. You want Cuda - well Cuda this.

Yes, on PCs you can't swap out your boot drive, and you have to re-install things when going from computer to computer. That's little to pay for getting the computer you want when you want it. Would that I had that option these past few months."


This is a gross over exaggeration. I know what you're saying in that all the software and hardware will translate, but it would still cost you lots of time and money as will a switch from Mac to PC, as it would to go from Dell to HP.

Yes, on the desktop, Apple is currently "behind", but you can't tell me that PCs are more open. You buy something, you are tied to it, and with PCs you are tied just as much as you are to Macs.

It's all on how you look at it. If CPu and GPU speed are the utmost of concern, then PCs win (I have been making this argument for a very long time now), but you can actually do more with a cross platform workflow on a Mac than you can with a PC.

I understand the merits of going to PC, but please stop lying and say it's more open because I can spin it the same way for Macs.

BluRay and USB3 are available on a Mac if you need them.

I am just looking for compelling reasons, Herb.

And like you, the software is keeping me on the Mac. In order for you to switch to PC, doesn't Avid or Adobe or someone have to make multicam as good if not better than FCP7? So what are you waiting on? Doesn't that mean that you might not get what you want? Aren't you waiting around for a potential future development too? Why can't Avid deliver? Or Adobe? Or Lightworks? When? When will they deliver? DO you have a roadmap for that? Are you scared of change even though you might be moving to an inferior system that runs really f*cking fast and can ray trace the crap out of a logo?

Then, won't you be just as tied whether you want to see it that way or not?


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 4:33:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "This is a gross over exaggeration"

No it is not. With PCs I can change computers and manufacturers and be up in a day. I've done it, no problem, and it's easier now than ever before.

[Jeremy Garchow] "t it would still cost you lots of time and money as will a switch from Mac to PC, as it would to go from Dell to HP. "

That is not even remotely true. There are many things I do that are not cross platform and will be very time consuming to change. My LTO software is non windows, I'm going to have to set up a Linux boot drive just to deal with backups. My entire raid will have to be erased and reformatted going to PC. None of that would be necessary going from Dell to HP.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am just looking for compelling reasons, Herb."

You won't get your compelling reason from me. I'm giving you my compelling reasons.

[Jeremy Garchow] "In order for you to switch to PC, doesn't Avid or Adobe or someone have to make multicam as good if not better than FCP7? So what are you waiting on? Doesn't that mean that you might not get what you want? Aren't you waiting around for a potential future development too? "

Avid's multicam is every bit as good as FCP7, always has been. What has me stuck in the Mac ecosystem right now is ProRes. We currently shoot to KiPros which encode to quicktime wrapped ProRes. While KiPros can also encode quicktime wrapped DNxHD neither will run that smoothly on an Avid, AMA not withstanding. The idea of re-wrapping 12 - 15 Terrabytes of material to MXF is not something I want to do. Also I have some deliverables that are currently ProRes. So for the moment I'm stuck on a Mac.

As for my future, I spoke to an AJA rep that was at the Adobe Roadshow and he assured me that the new rack mount KiPro's will be able to record to MXF DNxHD within a year. The moment that becomes true I will switch to Avid, still on a MAC to handle my deliverables and then switch to PC the next time I need a computer upgrade. This is my "roadmap" - something else may seduce me away, but at least it's something I can plan towards. Of course I know roadmaps and planning is not the Apple way, but I still think it's a good practice.

[Jeremy Garchow] "DO you have a roadmap for that? Are you scared of change even though you might be moving to an inferior system that runs really f*cking fast and can ray trace the crap out of a logo? Then, won't you be just as tied whether you want to see it that way or not?"

Once I've switched to Avid on a PC in the future I will have my choice of 5 NLE's to choose from and as many computer manufacturers as I can tolerate. The thing that ties me most is codec and backwards compatibility of old programs - since all the PC NLE's live in a non-magnetic world, compatibility isn't as much an issue. As for codecs - here's hoping that uncompressed HD will be in all of our futures.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 5:18:53 pm

Ok, Herb.

I hope that all the assurance you have received for things being developed in the future actually does come true. None of this is easy, and in my mind switching to a PC just means you are trading one locked system for another when you start to decide on an NLE package and hardware. That is my whole point.

Sure, there are more options on a PC, but to me that doesn't necessarily make my job an easier or better it just makes more decisions.

[Herb Sevush] "No it is not. With PCs I can change computers and manufacturers and be up in a day. I've done it, no problem, and it's easier now than ever before.
"


You would still have to reinstall everything, right?

[Herb Sevush] "That is not even remotely true. There are many things I do that are not cross platform and will be very time consuming to change. My LTO software is non windows, I'm going to have to set up a Linux boot drive just to deal with backups. My entire raid will have to be erased and reformatted going to PC. None of that would be necessary going from Dell to HP. "

I remember talking to you about LTO and how Cache-A was more expensive, but didn't lock you to software as it's an appliance. Can't you use a cheap mac to run your backups? Macs can read windows storage just fine (but I wouldn't dare call that flexible, not in this crowd).

Yes, storage will have to be reformatted, and that can take a long while, true.

[Herb Sevush] "So for the moment I'm stuck on a Mac."

Really, you're stuck with ProRes. That's valid. But if you wanted to, you could switch. It would suck and take a lot of time, but you could do it. Then you'd be stuck with DNxHD and the rather inflexible implementation of Avid's MXF structure. It's a trade-off. As far as a ProRes deliverable, the KiPros are perfect for that.

[Herb Sevush] "Once I've switched to Avid on a PC in the future I will have my choice of 5 NLE's to choose from and as many computer manufacturers as I can tolerate. The thing that ties me most is codec and backwards compatibility of old programs - since all the PC NLE's live in a non-magnetic world, compatibility isn't as much an issue. As for codecs - here's hoping that uncompressed HD will be in all of our futures."

You have the same choices on a Mac mostly, plus a few more. As of today, NLE choice has no advantage on Windows or Mac if you are skipping FCPX.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 6:48:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I hope that all the assurance you have received for things being developed in the future actually does come true."

Me too. If not, I've already delayed my decision making for a year, hopefully something else will come along.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Sure, there are more options on a PC, but to me that doesn't necessarily make my job an easier or better it just makes more decisions."

Just my personality, but I always opt for more choices vs fewer options. I'm claustrophobic (really), I hate the feeling of being trapped.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I remember talking to you about LTO and how Cache-A was more expensive, but didn't lock you to software as it's an appliance. Can't you use a cheap mac to run your backups? Macs can read windows storage just fine "

I can use an older Mac but that means I'm transferring files over ethernet, which would really slow things down. The Linux boot drive would see both my LTO and my drive on the same system. This is all theoretical of course so I do have the ethernet to the Mac as a fallback.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Really, you're stuck with ProRes. That's valid. But if you wanted to, you could switch. It would suck and take a lot of time, but you could do it. Then you'd be stuck with DNxHD and the rather inflexible implementation of Avid's MXF structure."

The difference is MXF DNxHD has cross platform encoding, ProRes does not.

[Jeremy Garchow] "As far as a ProRes deliverable, the KiPros are perfect for that."

The KiPros are part of the production package, I don't own them and spending 4K just to enable ProRes on a PC seems a bit much.

OT but I have to say I flat out love them KiPros. I don't know why but nobody is even trying to compete with them as a studio production tool. They are the only digital recorder that allows for clip naming and recording of multiple KiPros from a command computer. We wouldn't be shooting tapeless at all if not for them.

[Jeremy Garchow] "You have the same choices on a Mac mostly, plus a few more."

Edius and Vegas Pro are Windows only. I'm actually very intrigued by Edius; if it's multicam function wasn't so limited it would be a contender for me.

And finally, while I'm not trying to convince you, or anyone else that you should switch to windows. I feel very comfortable going that route, and after this past year I am not comfortable at all being under Apple's thumb, but that's strictly from my own specific workflow and background. In the meantime I will be spending at least this next year cutting on Legend (tm) - it still seems to get the job done.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 5:26:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I understand the merits of going to PC, but please stop lying and say it's more open because I can spin it the same way for Macs.
"


I'm sorry, Jeremy. No one is lying to you. I don't know why you can't understand what people mean by "more open" but it is very clear to most of us who have spent any time in the Windows world. There are many joys to the Mac, but one of my biggest frustrations since moving to the platform a decade ago, is how profoundly limited my choices on it are. I don't know if it is a semantics issue, or not, but I'm having a really hard time understanding your position here.


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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 5:33:29 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I don't know if it is a semantics issue, or not, but I'm having a really hard time understanding your position here."

I think I understand him -- he's saying that the claim that PCs are more open is disingenuous because additional hardware choices don't result in a more open workflow.

It doesn't matter if he buys a Mac or a PC, he's still committed to a specific NLE, a specific compositor, a specific color grading application -- each of which may require specific support hardware.

In the local sense of hardware choice, I understand and agree with you and Herb. In the global sense of workflow, Jeremy's talking sense: you are still eventually tied to something, regardless of which platform you're on.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 6:27:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "In the local sense of hardware choice, I understand and agree with you and Herb. In the global sense of workflow, Jeremy's talking sense: you are still eventually tied to something, regardless of which platform you're on.
"


Well, as Bob Dylan is fond of singing "We've all got to serve somebody." This all seems to be a bit of a semantical dust up.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 5:56:08 pm

It's clear, Chris, I truly don't get it. Sorry to waste yours and everyone's time.

I just wish everyone would stop pointing to faster, and show me better.


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Chris Harlan
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 6:47:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's clear, Chris, I truly don't get it. Sorry to waste yours and everyone's time."

Its not that. I just don't think Herb is lying to you.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I just wish everyone would stop pointing to faster, and show me better."

Jeremy, the only person who can show you better is you. No reason you HAVE to change platforms. I'm still all Mac and will probably be that way for a while, and I think very fondly of PCs and Windows. I DO have an escape route in terms of what I've been buying, and I like both Premiere and Avid quite a bit, so its very possible that my next CPU purchase will be a PC, though it is possible that a redesigned iMac could sway me. Depending on business, of course, whatever it is will probably be before next year's mystery machine makes its debut. I was ready for a new Mac Pro last December, though my 2008 is still chugging away nicely (touch wood.) I ended up with the last of the 17" Macbook Pros instead, and am very happy with it. Is it the last Mac I'll buy? Who knows.

What I have lost over the last year is my complacency. I had become overly settled in the Apple camp, both mentally and physically. Now that I'm aware of that and am taking measures to deal with it, I feel quite a bit more comfortable.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 7:06:29 pm

To be clear, I am not accusing Herb, or any one person of lying.

I want Pr to work so badly. The most frustrating part of Pr to me is that it looks and feels just like FCP7, right up until it doesn't, and then things get weird.

So if I am going to switch, and CS6 is the reason, it's not there so I might as well continue working on Macs and hobble until my foot falls off and I need a prosthetic.

The same problems had on Macs will be the same problems on Windows, they will just happen faster and they will be ray traced.


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 7:24:16 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I want Pr to work so badly. The most frustrating part of Pr to me is that it looks and feels just like FCP7, right up until it doesn't, and then things get weird."

Agreed. Never have I wanted a program to work so much and then be disappointed to watch as it gets real close and then fails. It's like watching the Jets blow the playoffs year after year. They seem to be so busy patting themselves on the back for how far they've come that I'm not sure they see how far they still have to go.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I might as well continue working on Macs and hobble until my foot falls off and I need a prosthetic. The same problems had on Macs will be the same problems on Windows, they will just happen faster ... "

Which is how we find ourselves still working with Legend (tm).

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Frank Gothmann
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 11:53:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "To be clear, I am not accusing Herb, or any one person of lying.

I want Pr to work so badly. The most frustrating part of Pr to me is that it looks and feels just like FCP7, right up until it doesn't, and then things get weird.

So if I am going to switch, and CS6 is the reason, it's not there so I might as well continue working on Macs and hobble until my foot falls off and I need a prosthetic.

The same problems had on Macs will be the same problems on Windows, they will just happen faster and they will be ray traced."


Just curious, what issues do you have with Premiere? I have my own quarrels with stuff that still needs fixing in it but my workflow is probably very different from yours..
Would you ever consider trying something like Edius via bootcamp? If not, why?

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 21, 2012 at 2:28:34 am

[Frank Gothmann] "Just curious, what issues do you have with Premiere?"

Editing is good. Dynamic link is good. Pure edit functionality, is overall pretty decent for our needs. There are some weird UI things, but it's all possible and doable, even including long export times, and Adobe has stellar customer awareness, and it's apparent they are listening. I can make my way around most UI oddities.

Media management is bad, multiple user environment is bad, conform is bad, basically many of the non sexy, yet really really important parts of editing is tough in premiere, especially at the end of the project, or if you need to move out of native, or you have projects coming back from archive. It just needs more work in order for me to trust it.

Prelude seems like it would be a good answer, but it seems to lose track of original media when you transcode, I would also like that communication to go the other way (from Pr to Pl) to help with conform and transcode. I would love Pl to become a really kick butt confirm tool and perhaps project database. It seems rather primed for it, but it's new so one step at a time.

Speedgrade isn't there yet, although it is also new so it gets a pass. I am highly interested in it. There's no SDI available on OSX, and windows requires a very expensive Nvidia daughter card.

If I'm talking about replacing fcs3, though, I have to replace everything, and the Speedgrade workflow and non SDI monitoring is a stopper at the moment.

So, it's close, but it's not compelling enough to buy 4 windows computers and blast my way to stressor oblivion. I'll stay here for a while. The longer I wait, the better tools will get. Development takes time.

[Frank Gothmann] "Would you ever consider trying something like Edius via bootcamp? If not, why?"

Sure, why not? Can you translate fcp7 projects to it, does it work with metaSAN, use standard capture/output cards, and allow interchange out? How about conform? Can it handle or manage multiple frame rates and frame sizes and consolidate to a unified format for use elsewhere? What is this format? Can it handle ProRes .mov for editing?


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Frank Gothmann
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 21, 2012 at 7:08:42 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Media management is bad, multiple user environment is bad, conform is bad, basically many of the non sexy, yet really really important parts of editing is tough in premiere, especially at the end of the project, or if you need to move out of native, or you have projects coming back from archive. It just needs more work in order for me to trust it."

Yep, the foundations are there and it's all doable, but some stuff needs additional work to really run smooth. 6.5 might be the one, though I believe the times where there is only one NLE for every job are over.

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Frank Gothmann] "Would you ever consider trying something like Edius via bootcamp? If not, why?"

Sure, why not? Can you translate fcp7 projects to it, does it work with metaSAN, use standard capture/output cards, and allow interchange out? How about conform? Can it handle or manage multiple frame rates and frame sizes and consolidate to a unified format for use elsewhere? What is this format? Can it handle ProRes .mov for editing?"


It imports FCP xml just like PP does. Yes, works with metaSan. Doesn't use standard io cards, but their own cards are affordable and io and timeline interaction is smooth and solid as can be plus you can have multiple cards in the same system withut issues. Works with everything native, including Prores, mixed frame rates and sizes no problem. It handles it all, better than even PP. Render and export times are the fastest I have seen with any given NLE. Does AAF or EDL out, you can conform to any codec you have on your system. Preferred one is HQX, their own intermediate codec. An additional Mac/PC QT version of HQX will come out within the next couple of weeks (it currently uses avi or mxf wrapper). That'll be a big one for me because unlike DnxHD it does SD up to 4k and it's free unlike Cineform.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 21, 2012 at 3:23:49 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Yep, the foundations are there and it's all doable"

Some of it is doable, but is it the best way? Flattened movie + EDLs do not seem like 21st century technology, but what do I know?

I do agree about the foundations, though. I've said this before, but there's a really good transportation system that seems to be permeated throughout the CS Suite, it's just a matter of connecting all of those disparate lines and being to able to go straight across town, instead of having to go all the way around the outskirts of the city just to get several blocks away. I'm sure they are working on it, Adobe has proven that.

[Frank Gothmann] "It imports FCP xml just like PP does.... "

What's the project structure like? Multiple projects open at once? Can I copy/paste from one to another?

I read about their codec before, it sounds really interesting. Can't wait to see what they do with it, as I am also interested in MXF as a wrapper.


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Walter Soyka
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 21, 2012 at 6:15:46 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I read about their codec before, it sounds really interesting. Can't wait to see what they do with it, as I am also interested in MXF as a wrapper."

I have had the opportunity to work a bit with HQX's predecessor (Canopus HQ), and I was very impressed. I'm looking forward to pushing HQX through my pipeline -- I'll be curious to see if they can dodge the dreaded gamma shift.

HQX supports an alpha channel, and you know how happy that makes me!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:12:04 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I keep hearing about Tekserve selling Windows computers from random places but there's not even the slightest hint."

Call Matt Cohen, head of the Pro dept. at Tekserve. He'll give you more than a hint. He was at the Adobe NYC roadshow, Tekserve was a sponsor, and he was showing off the REd-HP workstation under the Tekserve banner.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: More gasoline on the fire
on Jun 22, 2012 at 10:41:43 pm

I honestly don't get the need to be "all-OSX". I, too, prefer it as an OS, but at the last facility I worked at (and helped manage), we had a mix of everything. This was in the late 90s and early 00s, but at that time, the NLEs were a mix of Mac (Media Composer & Xpress) and PC (Symphony), audio was Mac (NED Post Pro) and the graphics department was mostly HP, with one Mac and one SGI (Avid Illusion). The reason the graphics folks were on HP was that they did a lot of 3D animation and it also gave them far better performance on Photoshop and After Effects.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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