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Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?

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Jason Wood
Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 10:37:29 pm

I'm just about certain I will be buying a Windows workstation soon as the Mac Pro is EOL. Currently all of my iDevices, laptops, desktops, workstations are Apple and it's been really nice having all of my hardware play nice under the same ecosystem.

If the Surface tablet and Windows Phone 8 turn out to be worthy alternatives to Apple iDevices... you know, assuming they work as intended and are accepted by the masses (I know that's a HUGE if and will take time), why wouldn't I slowly start migrating to an all Microsoft environment?

If my next workstation is going to be a PC, that means my next laptop will be a PC. If MS starts making legitimate iDevices, why wouldn't I want to keep all of my hardware under one seamless Microsoft ecosystem, hard drive format, OS platform?

By EOLing Mac Pro, the core of my workflow, did Apple knock over the first domino in what might lead to complete computing paradigm shift for me?

Has anyone else thought about this?

I've been working on Windows/Media Composer based systems at my day job for the last five years, they're fine, they get the job done, I like them well enough... but I never thought I'd be replacing my freelance rigs with PCs, let alone my iDevices, bizarre.


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Shane Ross
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 10:54:02 pm

Because I like the OS a LOT better than Windows. Less virus worry (small user base). It is just a lot easier to get around. I don't like what you have to do to constantly maintain Windows. Well, that and I have never owned a Windows machine in my life. I was raised on a Mac. Used a PC at school and a few jobs...didn't like it when I did.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jason Wood
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 11:11:40 pm

Shane, what's your alternative? I prefer OSX, too, but neither an iMac nor Mac Book Pro is going to work for me.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 11:54:25 pm

There will be a new MacPro (replacement) in 2013.
Look elsewhere in this forum for information.
Will we like? Next year will tell.
It'll likely be a beast of some sort though.



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Jason Wood
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 11:58:58 pm

So, the Mac Pro is NOT EOL? This is official-official?

If so, that changes everything.


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Davee Schulte
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 21, 2012 at 6:26:43 am

It was in an email from Tim Cook himself, that MacPro is coming "later next year". Definitely not EOL. Not yet anyway...


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Shane Ross
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:17:32 am

When I can afford a new tower, and need to replace the MacPro I have (it's still running VERY strong), then I'll be getting a PC. Might build one myself, might go HP...might go Dell. Might go ProMax One.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Davee Schulte
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 21, 2012 at 6:37:19 am

I've owned several Windows Machines. You haven't missed much. (Except a few viruses maybe).


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 11:04:57 pm

[Jason Wood] "Has anyone else thought about this?
"


Oh yeah. I think about it a lot. I used to be on Windows and liked it. I came to Mac for Final Cut Pro. Right now, I've got a lot of Mac equipment, not to mention that ProRes keeps me in the neighborhood. I try and buy things that startle both platforms--MC6, CS6, Boris Plugins, etc. I'm happy enough on a Mac, but no MacPro will send me back.


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 11:27:37 pm

[Jason Wood] "I've been working on Windows/Media Composer based systems at my day job for the last five years, they're fine, they get the job done, I like them well enough... but I never thought I'd be replacing my freelance rigs with PCs, let alone my iDevices, bizarre."

You've just answered your own question.

Look at your own language.

"fine", "well enough", "they get the job done"

If that's your standard for your life or business - then I'd say dive right in.

Those aren't the kind of words I personally prefer to have define my working life - but everyone's different.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Jason Wood
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 11:56:05 pm

"If that's your standard for your life or business - then I'd say dive right in. Those aren't the kind of words I personally prefer to have define my working life - but everyone's different."

What are you saying? I should quit this show because I'd slightly prefer to work with FCP7/OSX over Windows/Media Composer? Why be such a snob? The product I produce at the end of the day defines my working life, not the software or operating system I used to juxtapose said show.

From what I understand, FCP 7 and Mac Pro are DEAD, I've decided to go with Windows/Media Composer for my freelance work... It's not like I have a lot of options as an iMac and FCPx won't work for me.

My thread is about moving from an all Mac/OSX to Windows environment and all the variables. Stay on topic much?


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T. Payton
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:35:06 am

MacPro's are very long lasting. My 2006 Mac Pro (yeah 6 year old box) that I use every day runs great.

However, I think I have to seriously consider why exactly I need one. Here is what I have on my box:

2 Optical Drives
1 TB Internal Drive for startup
1 TB Internal Drive for Virtual Machines (Windows)
1 eSata card connected to a 6TB RAID
1 eSata card connected to external drive
1 Matrox MX02 - driving 13" CRT, and 40" LCD
1 Radeon 5770 driving 30" cinema display and 24" dell
13 GB RAM

Every one of those things (save the video card) can be replaced by devices on a tiny Thunderbolt cable. Thunderbolt is staggering technology.

I've bought an original Mac in 1984, and aside from the Scully years, the track record for innovation that Apple has put in the Mac is amazing. I have every confidence that what they are making now (i.e. the new Mac Pro or whatever it is called) will be ahead of its time and meet my needs quite well.

I have every respect for Microsoft, but they just don't make things that ignite your passion. I think as creatives we look at Apple and see them as fellow creatives and are excited about the products they make.

However, I think we are in a signifigant transition right now. The technology to replace the big towers is here, but for Mac based creative professionals we have an aging Mac Pro on one side but a non-upgradable iMac on the other. I think Apple is going to make an in-between box (that is without a built in display) that gives us some decent upgradability but without the boat anchor.

If my shops Mac Pro were all stolen today, I would replace them with iMacs and I don't think we would miss a beat. Then next year I would see what the new professional Mac has to offer, which will probably be pretty fantastic. So I'm hopeful, and even looking forward to it. :)

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 11:14:43 am

[Bill Davis] ""fine", "well enough", "they get the job done" If that's your standard for your life or business - then I'd say dive right in.Those aren't the kind of words I personally prefer to have define my working life - but everyone's different."

Well how's this. I just recently bought, through necessity, a MacPro tower. It is a slow, overpriced, outdated, outmoded POS, but being trapped, for now, in the OSX ecosystem I had no choice. I was drooling at the kind of work stations in PC land, so envious of their speed, connectivity and price that I swore I would never let myself get in this position again. Being tied to a single vendor is business insanity. Waiting around till "sometime in 2013" for an unspecified MacPro replacement would be a little like waiting around to see the FCP upgrade from last year - it might work out for you or it might suck. If I want excitement I go on a roller coaster, for my business I want speed, variety and compatibility - 3 things your not getting from Apple.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Rick Lang
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 19, 2012 at 11:54:53 pm

Jason:
"I'm just about certain I will be buying a Windows workstation soon as the Mac Pro is EOL."

With that caveat, who could complain? Trust no one is holding their breath waiting for an EOL announcement! Since there's another high-end offering promised by Tim Cook later in 2013, there's no end in sight now. Time will tell.

I was happy with Windows NT on a powerful SCSI-based box from the San Fernando Valley with a lovely aperture-grill 21" monitor until I became fatigued with the maintenance of warding off viruses and spam and had no interest in the plethora of Windows versions. I gave it away to charity and bought a Power Mac G5 with OS X Panther. No regrets. Have high expectations for the excellence of future innovations from Apple. Not everyone's choice I understand especially when there are pressing needs to address now and next year is too late.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Jason Wood
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:02:52 am

From all that I've read lately, I was under the impression it was EOL. If Apple continues to produce work stations, I'm not going anywhere.


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Rick Lang
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:11:36 am

Jason, you may not have seen this:

http://www.macworld.com/article/1167247/cook_apple_planning_professional_ma...

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Jason Wood
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:16:34 am

"Jason, you may not have seen this:

http://www.macworld.com/article/1167247/cook_apple_planning_professional_ma....."

No, no I had not! That's a beautiful sight!

Thanks, Rick... call off the dogs.


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Rick Lang
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:39:26 am

Jason:
"Thanks, Rick... call off the dogs."

Both dogs are resting at my feet, no worries.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 2:39:21 am

[Jason Wood] "That's a beautiful sight!"

Respectfully, I think that the CEO making the vague promise in a single direct customer email of "something really great for later next year" while Apple ignores the current generation of workstations entirely -- especially in light of the controversial changeover in professional video offerings last year -- is not really a beautiful sight. It's about the bare minimum that Apple can do.

They have invited the questioning of their commitment to the market. They have designed systems for tomorrow without regard for today's needs. They have built obsolescence into every new product they've designed in the last year. And they're compounding these issues by still not knowing how to talk to their customers after decades in the business.

2013's really great professional Mac may be wonderful, and for the sake of everyone who is waiting for one, I hope it meets all their needs -- but we just won't know for another 6 to 18 months (and even then, we may not know).

To Jeremy's point, what in the Apple ecosystem will require a "professional" Mac anymore, anyway? Looking at raw computational power, the 2010 Mac Pro is still a notably better machine than the 2011 iMac [link], yet the iMac somehow outperforms the Mac Pro in FCPX [link]. Their own software can't exploit a workstation. Other software (animation, modeling, color grading, audio) works well cross-platform, and by ignoring the current generation of workstations, Apple risks losing whatever performance-sensitive customers they have left. If they do leave, what needs will this professional Mac be built to fill?

I like my Macs. I liked FCS. I even like a lot of what's in FCPX. I respect Apple for their willingness to change, their ability to adapt, and their aggressive pursuit of their view of the future, but the amount of uncertainty that they're wrapping around their products makes it very, very hard for me to know when to recommend Apple solutions.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:13:47 am

[Walter Soyka] "I like my Macs. I liked FCS. I even like a lot of what's in FCPX. I respect Apple for their willingness to change, their ability to adapt, and their aggressive pursuit of their view of the future, but the amount of uncertainty that they're wrapping around their products makes it very, very hard for me to know when to recommend Apple solutions."

My problem is, I need a compelling reason to switch an entire workflow.

If Pr CS6 was the obvious choice for us, or if Avid was, or if there was a piece of windows exclusive software that we had to have, then yeah, the pain of switching to not only an NLE/grading worflow as well as an OS workflow might be worth it, and we'd pick up some CPU/GPU cycles along with it.

But right now, today, it just didn't seem logical, let alone practical.

The very informal tests of Pr/Resolve of the Retina MBP from Juan Salvo on Twitter today are good, very good, even when comparing to a Quadro4000 for Mac, and also using openCL, not even CUDA.

I'm not saying a laptop is the way to run a multi-seat facility, but how much power do I really need? I honestly have no idea. I don't run stereoscopic 48p 5k.

The clear answer hasn't smashed me in the face yet, but I am also stubborn. I'll pay in one way or the other at some point. In the meantime, there'll be yet another year of NLE development underway. Maybe it will be more obvious to me which way is up.







By the way, Windows was preliminarily unanimously down voted in the office today. :(

It's going to take a lot of convincing.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:24:48 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "My problem is, I need a compelling reason to switch an entire workflow."

Totally agreed -- but unless you plan to remain on FCP7 indefinitely, you will need to seriously alter your workflow no matter what NLE your choose.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm not saying a laptop is the way to run a multi-seat facility, but how much power do I really need? I honestly have no idea."

Why not? It's hardly déclassé anymore to run one on iMacs. What's the difference?


[Jeremy Garchow] "The clear answer hasn't smashed me in the face yet, but I am also stubborn. I'll pay in one way or the other at some point. In the meantime, there'll be yet another year of NLE development underway. Maybe it will be more obvious to me which way is up."

A very prudent course of action when nothing else meets your needs as well as FCP7.

It's a harder decision to make today if both Premiere and FCPX meet your needs better than FCP7 does.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:58:50 am

[Walter Soyka] "Totally agreed -- but unless you plan to remain on FCP7 indefinitely, you will need to seriously alter your workflow no matter what NLE your choose."

That's what I'm saying. Not only do we have to change NLE's we have to change OS, install all brand new hardware and get it all working.

If we change NLE and not OS, the network is still running as we know it, it just a new app or seven, which will be challenging enough. I know you preach about "once you're in the app", but there's so much more that happens when things aren't working quite right, especially with multiple machines connects to the same storage.

[Walter Soyka] "Why not? It's hardly déclassé anymore to run one on iMacs. What's the difference?"

The ATTO fibre to thunderbolt boxes aren't available, and we would probably only need a replacement if a MacPro we have melts down in a base of glory. If we switch to cs6, we will need CUDA, the RMBP is still really really new, and in order to match current PCIe cards, we'd have to repurchase some functionality there. With the future being so uncertain, it seems silly to spend a bunch of money on that today. In the future, maybe once an answer is clear.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 5:01:33 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Not only do we have to change NLE's we have to change OS, install all brand new hardware and get it all working. If we change NLE and not OS, the network is still running as we know it, it just a new app or seven, which will be challenging enough."

Sure -- the bigger the facility, the more variables for integration. I know it's especially hard for you because you are expected to maintain your systems and your SAN on top of actually editing.

My setup is simpler than yours, with a managed switch, a few VLANs, a VPN end-point, and no SAN. Integrating the 5 PCs I added to the network this year was straightforward and worked exactly the same as adding a Mac from the network perspective: configure the new MAC addresses for reserved IPs and hostnames on the switch, then plug them in.

I've been holding off on buying the SAN because it's a big investment to make. When I do buy, cross-platform support will be a requirement, and I'll have to expect to lose some productive time getting it installed and tested.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I know you preach about "once you're in the app", but there's so much more that happens when things aren't working quite right, especially with multiple machines connects to the same storage."

How do you troubleshoot Mac issues? Part of it is familiarity, and that's something you'd have to reacquire with Windows -- but that's not as hard as you think, and I'd argue that it's not part of a normal, day to day user experience for most people here. Googling error messages is cross-platform.

On your SAN -- it's got cross-platform support, right? Have you tried adding a PC? Did you set it up for your Macs yourself, or did you have some help from an integrator getting it up and running?

Even staying on the same platform is no guarantee that your SAN performance will be the same: look at the FCPX/SAN issues Oliver and Andrew have raised here.

I do not want to downplay the planning and effort that would be involved in switching your facility from OS X to Windows. It's a lot to take on in addition to the work you get paid to deliver, so I believe you when you say it's not a good choice for you. I just don't see Apple going out of their way to make the transition seamless for customers in general if they stick with Apple hardware and software.


[Jeremy Garchow] "With the future being so uncertain, it seems silly to spend a bunch of money on that today. In the future, maybe once an answer is clear."

The problem I see is that the date when we collectively expect clarity keeps getting pushed back. FCP Legend was getting creaky, and FCPX was supposed to be awesome last year -- and then the SuperMeet scared the community. After launch, we all had to wait to see what "old" features Apple would add and what workflows third parties would support before we could adopt FCPX in collaborative workflows. There was supposed to be a new Mac Pro at WWDC, and now we have to wait until "later next year" for "something really great."

It's not just Apple. MC5.5/MC6 was going to make Avid relevant again among the FCP crowd, but MC is barely even mentioned here and maybe it's merging with Symphony anyway. Adobe showed tons of improvement in Premiere Pro CS6, but it still has a few very notable weaknesses. Smoke 2013 is in pre-release, and has a gentler learning curve, but is still somewhat idiosyncratic and runs on suboptimal hardware when compared to the Linux version.

If you can hang on for a while longer to see how things shake out, that's a good move, but I think the last year has given us more questions than answers.

It's hard to tell people who have already been waiting a year (or two or three) to upgrade that they should wait another year -- no, really this time -- to see what the post landscape will look like.

We certainly live in interesting times.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 6:13:21 pm

[Walter Soyka] "How do you troubleshoot Mac issues? Part of it is familiarity, and that's something you'd have to reacquire with Windows -- but that's not as hard as you think, and I'd argue that it's not part of a normal, day to day user experience for most people here. Googling error messages is cross-platform."

Yes, yes it is. But with Macs, I know them so well, I can tell when it's a preference trash (does that even exist on Windows), or a restart, or perhaps when the shit really goes down, even an application reinstall.

I just know it, with Windows, all of that will be unfamiliar, and it will take a really long time to sit there and figure out. Maybe we will get lucky and nothing will go wrong because Windows is perfect.

[Walter Soyka] "On your SAN -- it's got cross-platform support, right? Have you tried adding a PC? Did you set it up for your Macs yourself, or did you have some help from an integrator getting it up and running? "

The SAN is run by a PC. When we first had it installed, it was a beta system, and a representative came out and helped me get it setup. From opening up the shipping boxes and placing the SAn in a rack to having 5 computers up and running, it was a total of about 4 hours. He stayed out of the way and let me do it just to observe how it might be done in the field without an integrator.

This particular SAN setup is fairly easy and the drives came preformatted from the factory so there was no raid building there. We ended up buying it after the beta period, and all support has been done via email since then.

[Walter Soyka] "Even staying on the same platform is no guarantee that your SAN performance will be the same: look at the FCPX/SAN issues Oliver and Andrew have raised here."

I've raised my own and it has to do with the NTFS nature of my storage. But so far for an out of the box application , FCPX has offered the most in terms of having actual built in SAN support and it actually solves a ton of issues that people have with FCPX and the Project/Event placement (or buying the venerable Event Manager X). It's almost as if FCPX was built for SAN editing, although like the rest of the application more control and options are needed. In the case of Oliver, his SAN doesn't work that way due to the Volume nature of it. XSan is not volume based either. It's a shame this functionality isn't built in for regular volume based editing as it makes putting a project on any machine fall down easy and also builds in an easy Project/Event management system that is controlled right in the application. No other NLe I have tried is doing this right now without third party help. Smoke supposedly has some of this built in as well, but it's not currently available in PreRelease 1.

Speaking of Smoke, my SAN isn't handling the image sequence based renders very well either. There's more work and testing to be done there as well by me.

[Walter Soyka] "I do not want to downplay the planning and effort that would be involved in switching your facility from OS X to Windows. It's a lot to take on in addition to the work you get paid to deliver, so I believe you when you say it's not a good choice for you. I just don't see Apple going out of their way to make the transition seamless for customers in general if they stick with Apple hardware and software."

I am not saying Apple is making it easier (or harder), but not having to relearn an entire system makes it easier in the short run at least, for me.

[Walter Soyka] "The problem I see is that the date when we collectively expect clarity keeps getting pushed back. FCP Legend was getting creaky, and FCPX was supposed to be awesome last year -- and then the SuperMeet scared the community. After launch, we all had to wait to see what "old" features Apple would add and what workflows third parties would support before we could adopt FCPX in collaborative workflows. There was supposed to be a new Mac Pro at WWDC, and now we have to wait until "later next year" for "something really great."

It's not just Apple. MC5.5/MC6 was going to make Avid relevant again among the FCP crowd, but MC is barely even mentioned here and maybe it's merging with Symphony anyway. Adobe showed tons of improvement in Premiere Pro CS6, but it still has a few very notable weaknesses. Smoke 2013 is in pre-release, and has a gentler learning curve, but is still somewhat idiosyncratic and runs on suboptimal hardware when compared to the Linux version.

If you can hang on for a while longer to see how things shake out, that's a good move, but I think the last year has given us more questions than answers.

It's hard to tell people who have already been waiting a year (or two or three) to upgrade that they should wait another year -- no, really this time -- to see what the post landscape will look like.

We certainly live in interesting times."


Yes. I'm definitely hanging out. I've waited one year, hopefully we can make another? I don't know. I think the next NAB and hopefully big NLE software rev will tell me where I am going to spend the bulk of my time.

Right now, even though there's some very mature applications out there, it's all very very new and change is certain.

Jeremy


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Tim Wilson
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 10:09:03 pm

I'm happy to be corrected (I'm used to it by now) but no equivalent to trashing preferences, which I say only because it has never come up for me. Ditto repairing permissions, which I've done a bunch of times on Macs over the years...including last night to empty the trash of one recalcitrant file. I can't think if anything like it in Windows, because it hasn't come up. I can empty all the files in the trash just fine. LOL

Of course not that Windows has no issues, just that I was reminded how glad I am not to deal with prefs and permissions anymore.

re the switch to Windows, it has been beyond wonderful for me, restoring a joy in computing that I realized had been sucked out of me by Macs...but really, I can't recommend anybody switching unless it solves a problem other than Apple. You've gotta draw a lot of polygons to offset the productivity drain of infrastructure transition.

It HAS to be about software first, not platform. Unless you see an APPLICATION experience that excites you, stay put.

but once you see a potentially cross-platform future, it's at THAT point that I'd want to have a heart to heart with you about Windows. LOL

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 10:14:07 pm

[Tim Wilson] "I'm happy to be corrected (I'm used to it by now) but no equivalent to trashing preferences, which I say only because it has never come up for me. Ditto repairing permissions, which I've done a bunch of times on Macs over the years...including last night to empty the trash of one recalcitrant file. I can't think if anything like it in Windows, because it hasn't come up. I can empty all the files in the trash just fine. LOL"

Actually and totally ironically, this was one of the first things I could not figure out how to do in Windows. There were files, they would not delete. Had to empty the trash in 'admin' mode (this was trying Terminal, and whatever the windows equivalent command prompt is). It took three different phone calls to tech support to figure that one out.

[Tim Wilson] "It HAS to be about software first, not platform. Unless you see an APPLICATION experience that excites you, stay put.

but once you see a potentially cross-platform future, it's at THAT point that I'd want to have a heart to heart with you about Windows. LOL"


I hear you and I'll need it by then.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 3:29:10 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "By the way, Windows was preliminarily unanimously down voted in the office today. :("

Why do you think everyone was so opposed to Windows?

I'm not going to try to change your coworkers' minds, but I am curious what their thinking may have been.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 4:02:00 am

[Walter Soyka] "I'm not going to try to change your coworkers' minds, but I am curious what their thinking may have been."

With the switch of an entire workflow, the switch to a new OS and all that entails is daunting.

We are busy, and simply throwing all of that in a pot and mixing it up doesn't make for a very good stew.


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Davee Schulte
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 21, 2012 at 6:40:49 am

Windows was preliminarily unanimously down voted in the office today

Just wondering, is anyone there excited about the MS Surface tablet and how that could change things?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:15:24 am

[Jason Wood] "From all that I've read lately, I was under the impression it was EOL. If Apple continues to produce work stations, I'm not going anywhere."

There is still a great deal of debate about what this all means. The MacOptimists around here say that the vague confirmation of something coming next year is Apple promising allegiance to a workstation future. The iPessimists point to how far behind other workstations Apple's current offering is, and suggest that the quietly muttered maybes were actually just Apple wiping egg from its face after a bit of visible and vocal contention at WWDC. Something will undoubtedly happen on the "Pro" side next year, but nobody knows what, or whether it will be enough. Of course, "it will be really great." We know that much. Sort of.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:22:37 am

Also, it's old and crusty, but the MacPro is still on sale, officially, you can still buy one direct from Apple.

Whether you want to or not is another story....

Also, and I mean this in all seriousness, why won't an iMac work for you?

Peripherals? That's an easy one, but anything else?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:46:22 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, it's old and crusty, but the MacPro is still on sale, officially, you can still buy one direct from Apple.

Whether you want to or not is another story....
"


Definitely. She's still there. She's still around.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, and I mean this in all seriousness, why won't an iMac work for you?

Peripherals? That's an easy one, but anything else?
"


Let's see. I hate the glossy monitor. I'm generally a two or more monitor kind of a guy. Right now, I have four and a program monitor. When I'm at a desk, I like that. Yes, I know I can hook up a second monitor on an iMac. When I do advance graphics, which I currently do less of, but still do, I really like the extra rendering cores. I like a choice of GFX cards. And, I like having the ability to add and remove parts--probably a throwback to my PC customization days, but something I value none-the-less. The iMac is a good computer, so I'm not trying to bag on it, but I prefer something more powerful and more customizable.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:59:05 am

[Chris Harlan] "Let's see. I hate the glossy monitor. I'm generally a two or more monitor kind of a guy. Right now, I have four and a program monitor. When I'm at a desk, I like that. Yes, I know I can hook up a second monitor on an iMac. When I do advance graphics, which I currently do less of, but still do, I really like the extra rendering cores. I like a choice of GFX cards. And, I like having the ability to add and remove parts--probably a throwback to my PC customization days, but something I value none-the-less. The iMac is a good computer, so I'm not trying to bag on it, but I prefer something more powerful and more customizable."

Have you tried it?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:17:43 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Have you tried it?
"


Have I tried what? Editing on an iMac? I've looked at the newest ones. What is there to try?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:56:30 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, it's old and crusty, but the MacPro is still on sale, officially, you can still buy one direct from Apple.

Whether you want to or not is another story....

Also, and I mean this in all seriousness, why won't an iMac work for you?

Peripherals? That's an easy one, but anything else?
"


This is meant for Jason Wood.


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Mark Hollander
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 21, 2012 at 4:11:42 pm

There are several problems with imacs. 1) When the monitor dies (when not if, we have had 2 die in 2 years) the computer is next to useless. It has to be sent off to be repaired at a quite significant cost. When the last one broke-down I was quoted $1000 to fix it! If a monitor on a MacPro dies it's no drama at all. Grab a spare and keep on truckin. 2) the gloss screen, deal breaker. 3) I render in Lightwave (which uses 100% of every core) and leave the machines running all weekend. I would not even try this on an imac, it will be fried by Monday morning. 4) Limited RAM upgrade. 16GB is barely enough to run After Effects. 5) No input from tape (although my DVCPro50 tape deck is starting to gather dust the past 3 years) 6) No USB 3, which I can add to the MacPro for a ~$120. 7) When using multiple monitors I like having 3 identical monitors that are the same height, resolution and colour. So my eye-line is the same across the monitors and everything looks consistent. 8) Multiple internal HDDs. I don't want to back to 1996 when my desk was filled with external devices. For my business the imacs are only good enough for admin work. They just don't work for me in our edit suites. Having said all that the "new" MacPro would seem like a waste of money for anyone who already owns a MacPro as the current model has not had a price change since it was released in 2010. That needs to be addressed! CHEERS. Mark

"It beats working for a living"


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 21, 2012 at 4:23:33 pm

Yes to many of your points especially #1 and #7 - tying the computer to a fixed, far from ideal display screen does not make sense for someone working with multiple screens. You can make it work, the way you can hammer a nail with an ax, but why would you want to.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 21, 2012 at 4:31:59 pm

[Mark Hollander] "1) When the monitor dies (when not if, we have had 2 die in 2 years) the computer is next to useless. It has to be sent off to be repaired at a quite significant cost. "

Agreed. Even if you have AppleCare, the downtime for a professional is significant.

[Mark Hollander] "2) the gloss screen, deal breaker."

That might change with Retina Display but obviously not yet. Having seen the MBPr there glare issues seem to be gone given the way the monitor is constructed.

[Mark Hollander] "5) No input from tape"

Thunderbolt opens the door to tape input. AJA, Blackmagic, Matrox all support it.

[Mark Hollander] "6) No USB 3,"

That will likely change as well but obviously not yet.

[Mark Hollander] "They just don't work for me in our edit suites. Having said all that the "new" MacPro would seem like a waste of money for anyone who already owns a MacPro as the current model has not had a price change since it was released in 2010. That needs to be addressed!"

It will be addressed as stated elsewhere in the thread, later in 2013.

[Mark Hollander] "the imacs are only good enough for admin work."

All reports I've seen say they are fine for editing with FCPX and Smoke ran their demo on one as well. I can't speak for Premiere or Avid though. They may not be great render/compression engines but they're quite capable of a lot more than business admin work.



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Dennis Radeke
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 21, 2012 at 5:46:00 pm

[Craig Seeman] "All reports I've seen say they are fine for editing with FCPX and Smoke ran their demo on one as well. I can't speak for Premiere or Avid though. They may not be great render/compression engines but they're quite capable of a lot more than business admin work."

You can expect as good performance on Premiere Pro CS6 than you would get with any other NLE. Remember, Adobe was first of the big 3 to get to 64-bit on Mac and now with CS6 has some OpenCL support for AMD/ATI cards.

Like any 64-bit app, the more resources you throw at it, the better your performance.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:51:33 am

[Chris Harlan] "MacOptimists around here say that the vague confirmation of something coming next year is Apple promising allegiance to a workstation future. The iPessimists point to how far behind other workstations Apple's current offering is"

I have no doubt Apple will come out with a box they will be proud of . . . they were proud of the Cube weren't they?

As per other posts the question is whether one really needs a MacPro these days. Keep in mind that the iMac hasn't been updated in over a year either. Given that I prefer editing on Mac and I'd expect either a new iMac I'll like or consolidate the two lines, it's conceivable to edit on Mac and do other things on Windows. I'm often using both Operating Systems (and I've been bootcamping my Macs for a few years), it wouldn't be a great hardship to buy a Windows computer as well as an iMac. Basically though if I can get 6 cores or more with a powerful GPU I'll be happy.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 1:15:35 am

[Craig Seeman] " have no doubt Apple will come out with a box they will be proud of . . . they were proud of the Cube weren't they? "

I agree, Whether they were planning it or were guilted into, I believe they will put their best foot forward, now that they have committed.


[Craig Seeman] "Given that I prefer editing on Mac and I'd expect either a new iMac I'll like or consolidate the two lines, it's conceivable to edit on Mac and do other things on Windows. I'm often using both Operating Systems (and I've been bootcamping my Macs for a few years), it wouldn't be a great hardship to buy a Windows computer as well as an iMac. Basically though if I can get 6 cores or more with a powerful GPU I'll be happy."

If they have an option to get rid of the glossy screen, add USB 3, make thunderbolt a little more robust, add a bit more upgradable RAM space and add a robust 6 Core, I could be okay with it, as well.


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Paul Jay
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 7:22:14 am

Its not EOL.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 7:44:39 am

And re: ecosystem, the key component for your device environment isn't a Mac. It's iTunes. If you use iTunes, and are thinking about non-iDevices, you're asking for pain. The majority of iUsers are on Windows, including the handful of members of my family who don't bleed Apple rainbow colors. Works great. Don't let your computer or its OS factor into your other ecosystem choices.

As is mentioned here often with other software, once you're in iTunes, platform doesn't really factor in.

Of course, I don't have iTunes installed on my computer at all, so that doesn't really factor in for me either. LOL


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 12:37:06 pm

[Tim Wilson] " the key component for your device environment isn't a Mac. It's iTunes. If you use iTunes, and are thinking about non-iDevices, you're asking for pain."

You couldn't be more correct. My last Ipod died, I'm not interested in a touch screen game player, I just needed something with 64 gig capacity, but the 128 gig Ipod classic seemed a little pricey. I figured there must be a decent inexpensive MP3 player out there. Wrong. Nothing beyond 8 gig flash drive players. One of those will use mini cards to get up to around 32 gig which was still too small and it was incompatible with my cars stereo to boot. In the meantime I set about seeing if I could convert my Itunes files to MP3 to work with this imaginary player. Nightmare. It's possible, but after spending 2 weeks converting files I wasn't 25% done. Hopeless. I went out and bought the damned Ipod classic and have just accepted the fact that as far as music goes, they own my soul.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 20, 2012 at 6:22:39 pm

[Jason Wood] "By EOLing Mac Pro, the core of my workflow, did Apple knock over the first domino in what might lead to complete computing paradigm shift for me?

Has anyone else thought about this? "


The recent (lack of a) Mac Pro update is probably going to have me building a Windows machine for our new DI theater, but just because Windows is, right now, the best choice as the core of a 'Resolve appliance' doesn't suddenly mean I want to run it on my personal laptop, on my tablet, or even on systems used for creative editorial.

The last of those might be up for grabs if you need your offline NLE running on a massively powerful system, but how many people still do? Today's MacBook Pros are faster than 2008's Mac Pros, and Thunderbolt provides both RAID and video I/O connectivity without slots. I picked up one of the new Retinal MBPs, and FCP X in particular just runs like melted butter on this thing — it's the most fluid and responsive video editing experience I've ever had.

There's no doubt that Microsoft is doing some interesting things these days, but realistically, their new Metro environment is going to take a while to really catch on. Those tablets aren't going to immediately have the kind of ecosystem of touch-optimized apps that iPad has. The 'RT' (ARM processor) version of their tablet doesn't look to be on par with iPad 3 hardware (seems to only be a 720p screen, for starters), and by the time it comes out iPad 4 will be only a few months away. The 'Pro' (x86 processor) version of their tablet has a nicer screen (1080p), but is basically a MacBook Air without the keyboard — it's chunky by tablet standards (a full two pounds), battery life (which they carefully didn't discuss) isn't going to be great, and it's certainly going to provide a compromised experience when running desktop apps.

On the PC side, users — particularly users like us — are going to be stuck primarily using the traditional desktop interface for years, as apps like Photoshop and Media Composer are not going to get ported to Metro anytime soon. The whole dual-mode UI, switching back and forth between Metro apps and desktop apps, seems like it could be a bit frustrating. And really, one could construct the same sort 'X doesn't care about pro users' narrative about Microsoft that has been constructed about Apple. In some ways, that narrative works even better for Microsoft. Apple is talking about how they see the Mac and the iPad as being different, and requiring different approaches with respect to their operating systems. Microsoft seems to be trying to move both tablets and desktops to Metro, which is clearly more oriented around consumer tablets than pro workstations.

The computer industry is in a state of flux right now, undergoing change of a sort of hasn't seen in 20 years. Our industry is clearly going to have to change with it. But there's no particularly clear direction to jump in, and we may well be headed for a real multi-platform future, very unlike the last couple of decades of Microsoft dominance + Apple holding down some important niches. There's no reason to think one platform will be all things to any given user. With all of this uncertainly, the best approach right now is to buy the products that serve immediate practical needs, and keep workflows and skillets as flexible as possible so that future options are left open.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Davee Schulte
Re: Apple/Microsoft Ecosystems -- If Mac Pro is EOL, why stay with Apple at all?
on Jun 21, 2012 at 6:36:05 am

I don't think this forum would exist if anyone was super excited about jumping to Windows. The fact is, I think most of us really like Mac OS and we all loved FCP. Hence, all the frustration in having to decide future workflows. Mac Pro isn't end of line, but Apple is definitely moving towards smaller, lighter, faster. To me that means the next Mac Pro (yes, there will be one in 2013) will look very different than the bulky tower of today. Also, what about the next imac? Would Ivy Bridge quad processor, SSD and thunderbolt be fast enough for you?


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