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Jeremy Garchow
Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 1:50:42 pm

http://wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa/


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Herb Sevush
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:10:44 pm

Good article, thanks for posting.

"If we choose the Retina display over the existing MacBook Pro, the next generation of Mac laptops will likely be less repairable still. When that happens, we won’t be able to blame Apple. We’ll have to blame ourselves."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:14:06 pm

If the Retina Mac or the Macbook Air was the only laptops Apple offered that would certainly make me move to Windows

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:15:52 pm

The big message of the article really is that Apple uses something exciting and new to squeeze lots of undesirable things under people's nooses so the bad gets overlooked and is forgotten.
Everybody talks about the display, few about the locked-down nature and the lost "legacy" ports. They could have build a "regular" MBP with retina display.
So what if it's 0.24 inches inches thinner. Is that seriously making any difference in day to day usage or is it just a show-off that's paid for with all the mentioned issues?
I am really curious about the lifespan of such a machine when its under heavy load day in and out beyond what people do with an AIR, especially with a Keppler GPU.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:25:30 pm

Apple, not the consumer company, the commodity company.

What they have learned from their consumer products is that they make the most money when people replace every year or two rather than upgrade components.

"We" can grouse all we want but the article also points out what the market wants/buys.

Based on what I'm seeing and hearing the MBPr will follow the same successful pattern in sales. This may be their first "Pro" product to go down that path. I suspect the MacPro replacement next year will follow suit.

I wouldn't even be surprised that Apple will find it easier to replace rather than repair these units if they have issues under warranty/Apple Care.

Related to FCPX, what they may have learned is that people are more inclined to buy new GPUs for their old MacPro than buy new computers. I believe Apple wants to put an end to that in their next "pro" desktop.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:35:33 pm

[Craig Seeman] "What they have learned from their consumer products is that they make the most money when people replace every year or two rather than upgrade components."

So how well does this work for you and your business? In other words, assuming this is the Apple business plan, are you happy about it, resigned, or pissed off - purely from your own personal point of view?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 3:08:59 pm

[Herb Sevush] "So how well does this work for you and your business? In other words, assuming this is the Apple business plan, are you happy about it, resigned, or pissed off - purely from your own personal point of view?"

Somewhere in the middle. Obviously I was very happy that I could just upgrade my GPU for FCPX compatibility. As much as I like FCPX I wasn't about to buy a new computer for an NLE whose direction was speculative on my part.

Normally I buy mid level (8 core instead of 12) knowing that I can expand most components based on how my needs grow (RAM, GPU, types of drives). I'm going to have to rethink that. People are already getting caught with that and the MBPr who buy 8GB RAM instead of 16GB. Assuming next year's MP replacement follows suit, it means $3500 will lock me in with the only option to replace in two years rather than keep expanding it for 3 to 4 year life cycle. That impact ROI.

Ironically that thinking is also in part of Apple's calculus regarding market share. As people replace more frequently older models are sold to keep up ROI (cover the costs of the new purchase). This means an increase in market share.

Sure, I'm unhappy about the new "locked down" business mode from Apple. Sure I'll have to change my business model when it comes to purchases if I want to stick with Apple. Ironically Thunderbolt will eventually make cross platform moves easier as Windows adopts it . . . and Apple adopts USB3. That does alleviate some of the worry.

Over the long haul I do think the advantages of internal expansion will diminish. But they wont go away. If the increases in technology advance fast enough that getting a new computer every two years is worthwhile it will be less of problem.

Yes that's a big speculative "if" but things are changing quickly. In many respects it has more to do with Intel (at this point) than Apple. In the past CPU technology, motherboard design, connectivity was only incremental over that time span. I think that's about to change. 2013 Apple's "locked down" internals will catch up (although locked down). 2015 may well be true optical Thunderbolt which would push another move anyway.

The real question I (we) face I think is the GPU technology. There's some irony that even Apple's own software becomes more GPU dependent, their systems tend to be behind in GPU support and may be further behind if they lock that down. I think that will be the pivot point for me. Liking FCPX only goes so far if it's dog slow because Apple isn't allowing me to give it the GPU it needs. That may also hinge on where Intel goes with Optical Thunderbolt because that will be key and Apple has a lot riding on that.

I'll have to see about price performance of their 2013 Pro box. I may have to see if a locked down GPU (assuming that) can be viable for two years. Also my recommendations for a larger facility may not be the same direction I'd take personally.



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Oliver Peters
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:45:00 pm

Like it or not, Apple is the true epitome of planned obsolesce these days and the market rewards that. But they aren't to blame for starting that. If you follow the history of consumer products and manufacturing, we've been on that path for decades.

My dad used to be a TV repair man in the days when a service shop could just about repair anything inside the TV. During his time, electronics evolved into less and less serviceable components and more self-contained modules. Module goes bad - toss it out and replace the whole unit.

Look at how most modern cars are designed and built. Fewer serviceable elements. Longer intervals between routine checks and servicing, but it takes an expensive diagnostics center to really troubleshoot anything. In both cases, the small shops go out of business, because there's less and less they can do for the customer.

The counter-trend is in boutique products. For example, guitar players love tube amps and vintage pedals and stomp boxes. It's a small market and the products fetch an appropriate price.

I suspect computing in general will go small, lighter, maybe more powerful, but yet entirely DISPOSABLE. A few "pros" and "computer geeks" will opt for custom, BTO and DIY systems that buck the trend. Odds are it won't be in laptops, though, except those that will give you a hernia.

iPhone = iPad = laptop = trashcan every 2-3 years

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 3:41:35 pm

[Oliver Peters] "iPhone = iPad = laptop = trashcan every 2-3 years"

I generally agree with your comments except maybe the trashcan part.
While the demanding (or lusting?) users will upgrade frequently, the previous generation (baring breakage) remain in circulation. I think that's Apple's "backend" approach to increasing market share.

Just my speculation but since older things can't be expanded they're more likely to be sold to other less demanding or less financially equipped users, then kept as "secondary" systems by higher end users.



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Oliver Peters
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 4:00:04 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I generally agree with your comments except maybe the trashcan part. "

While I may be generally concerned with the trend, it doesn't mean I won't buy one if it's right for my needs. My approach is to wring as much use out of it as I can. There IS the issue of contribution to waste. But I tend not to buy these things based on trend - as an owner of a gen 1 iPad (bought after iPad2 was released), iPod Classic (given to me) and Motorola Razor (IMHO iPhones are terrible phones for voice communication) ;-) OTOH, I own a 4+ year old MBP, which is now on its 4th battery and on which I upgraded the RAM. So owner-serviceablity of minor items is important to me.

One of the trends manufacturers are seeing is that users are NOT changing their main computers every 3 years anymore. Most desktops are now in use 4-5 years at places where they would have been churned in 3. Part of that is the economy, but part is that these machines are already doing all and more of what we demand of them.

Quite frankly, if your job is primarily editing with modern compressed codecs up to HD sizes, a late model Mac Pro, HP, MBP or even iMac is plenty powerful. So I think part of what Apple is doing is trying to stoke the fires of demand ( i.e. want not need) as only they can.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:53:02 pm

This all goes toward what Steve believed was the best computer and what his goals were for the company since the beginning. Oddly, it all sorta got sidetracked in our favor while Apple was under the reign of Amelio and others with the myriad of options and even license of the OS. He came back, did away with licensing, started taking away floppy drives and serial ports, came out with the iMac and cube, new PowerBook and iBook. All progressively less expandable. The iPod and iPhone were not designed to be expandable. We've even seen Mac minis and Apple TVs go that route. You can argue they'd like you to update every year or two, but on the other hand, their machines are so comparatively well built, expensive and well designed that people keep them much longer than their windows counterparts.

To the pro user minority's detriment, I think they are truly following what Apple believes to be their mission. An end to end ecosystem solution of computers as SJ originally saw them with limited expandability. He used to fight with Wozniak about how many expansion ports to put on the motherboard. He didn't want people mucking about in his boxes. Even if Tim Cook wanted to change course, it would be pretty hard for him to make the case due to SJs success. I really think Steve was on an accelerated path before he died. He wanted to get so much rolling before he died so the company would have a harder time bowing to pressures and changing course. He was cleaning house big time. Just like he did when he returned.

As a decent size stockholder, I'm elated. As a video editor I'm fairly ticked off.


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Steve Connor
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:56:17 pm

[Bret Williams] "To the pro user minority's detriment, I think they are truly following what Apple believes to be their mission. An end to end ecosystem solution of computers as SJ originally saw them with limited expandability. He used to fight with Wozniak about how many expansion ports to put on the motherboard. He didn't want people mucking about in his boxes. Even if Tim Cook wanted to change course, it would be pretty hard for him to make the case due to SJs success. I really think Steve was on an accelerated path before he died. He wanted to get so much rolling before he died so the company would have a harder time bowing to pressures and changing course. He was cleaning house big time. Just like he did when he returned.
"


Perhaps this is why we're waiting so long for a new Mac Pro, the vision for it changed and they went back to the drawing board.

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Bret Williams
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 4:55:40 pm

I would wager Steve was planning on killing it. It wasnt even in the stores. My theory is that Tim has found a way to work it or some semblance of a Pro machine back into the lineup. It's probably all on paper and a team won't be working on it until the iMac is out, the iPhone 6 is deployed, and mountain lion is running smoothly.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:31:10 pm

[Bret Williams] "I would wager Steve was planning on killing it. It wasnt even in the stores. My theory is that Tim has found a way to work it or some semblance of a Pro machine back into the lineup"

Tangentially remember a little while back there were rumors that Jonathan Ive was ready to leave Apple and return to the UK. Maybe part of that was that there was no more groundbreaking for him to do at Apple. A life of tweaking iPhone and iPad hardware might not be a compelling future. Somehow I imagine someone, Steve or Tim, (and remember Ive was godlike in Steve's eyes) said "Ok, make me the computer that will shake the industry. You have all the time you need but it MUST devastate the industry." MBPr is his playground. The MP replacement will be the big arena. So Ive stayed.

Entire wild assumption but it's the thought that enters my head when I think about the current circumstances at Apple.

I don't pretend to assume the MP replacement will be a success (remember the Cube) but it's probably going to be the most controversial product Apple has produced in years.



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Paul Jay
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:32:45 pm

Yeah terrible.

And it does 9 streams ProRes HQ from the internal storage. What a crappy product.

Never gonna buy it. It's just a Fast iPad which i can't open up myself…..

Sarkasm off.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:53:28 pm

[Paul Jay] "Yeah terrible.

And it does 9 streams ProRes HQ from the internal storage. What a crappy product.

Never gonna buy it. It's just a Fast iPad which i can't open up myself…..

Sarkasm off.
"


With 256 GB storage in the base model I am damn sure you'll do a hell of a lot of editing and projects with Prores or Uncompressed from internal storage.
Uohhhh, it has flash storage. Wow, now that's really something new. When did the first laptops with flash storage show up again? Right, 2007. Sony Vaio.
None of that is what this topic is about anyway.

Reality on.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Bill Davis
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:57:45 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "With 256 GB storage in the base model I am damn sure you'll do a hell of a lot of editing and projects with Prores or Uncompressed from internal storage. "

I personally haven't stored a FCP-X project on my laptop's internal drive in six months. I consider it dumb when the software works with inexpensive external storage so fluidly.


The real issue is that computers are clearly following same path as our cars.

When introduced, they were tinkerers devices. As they matured, less and less owner intervention was sensible. (you could no longer do repairs with the included toolkit and bailing wire!)

Today, unless you' have a very unusual garage at home chock full of diagnostic computers - you can't do much with the "guts" of your vehicle other than fluid replacement.

Computers are merely following the same path.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:10:15 pm

[Bill Davis] "[Frank Gothmann] "With 256 GB storage in the base model I am damn sure you'll do a hell of a lot of editing and projects with Prores or Uncompressed from internal storage. "

I personally haven't stored a FCP-X project on my laptop's internal drive in six months. I consider it dumb when the software works with inexpensive external storage so fluidly."


Precisely, which is why the point of the poster I've replied to (9 streams of prores from the internal drive) is irrelevant. Especially since this topic is not related to anyone complaining about lack of performance.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Davee Schulte
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:57:12 pm

Really guys? The laptop is a crappy product because it can't be easily upgraded? Is popping open your laptop really a part of your daily workflow?? You don't pop open a TV or Toaste. What's the difference. The PC is becoming an appliance that most people use for about 3 years and then upgrade by buying a new one. I'm not saying its a good or bad product, but I'm ok buying a warranty and getting a new computer if one breaks. Soon, laptops will be as thin as paper, how are you going to upgrade then??


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 3:06:08 pm

[Davee Schulte] "Really guys? The laptop is a crappy product because it can't be easily upgraded? Is popping open your laptop really a part of your daily workflow?? You don't pop open a TV or Toaste. What's the difference. The PC is becoming an appliance that most people use for about 3 years and then upgrade by buying a new one. I'm not saying its a good or bad product, but I'm ok buying a warranty and getting a new computer if one breaks. Soon, laptops will be as thin as paper, how are you going to upgrade then??"

There is the ability to upgrade and the ability to swap parts for repairs. Two different things. My toaster doesn't run on a battery and it doesn't cost 2000 dollars nor does my business depend on it-only my mood in the morning which is mostly shit anyway. If your car's radio is broken, you don't throw away the entire car including its motor. How much is a battery replacement or ram replacement for this product, given hat its glued/soldered to the base?

The previous MBP was a great laptop. With eSata and USB3 it probably would have just brilliant. This one I find... problematic and I wouldn't buy it. And that has nothing to with its performance which is presumably good.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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olof ekbergh
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 3:44:57 pm

They are made to be recycled not repaired.

That is the industry trend.

I seem to drop my MBP hard every 3-4 years and my insurance always pays for a new one. So this is not such a bad thing. Sometimes earlier, or they are stolen.

I remember when we changed points and condensers in cars and used timing lights and dwell meters to tune cars. Now just replace the ignition unit, no adjustments. And you have to have a specialized computer to even begin to work on them.

I also used to replace all kinds of parts in computers, but now I just buy new ones because every 3-5 years you need a whole new system to keep up with current SW.

I think things are only going to change more, smaller, faster, no moving parts at all. Possible recover heat as power not waste it by having to use a fan to cool.

I still have a Mac from the 90's that run as a SD edit suite perfectly, and I still use it from time to time. And I have a 22 year old MC that runs as well.

But I change my cars every 5 years or so and they almost never need repairs.

I like the look and utility of the new MBPr and when I need a new MBP I will buy it. But my current 5,1 is running great with a 1TB internal HD.

I really don't see a problem using a smallish internal SSD as a system drive and TB externals for editing in the field. Seems ideal to me, have 2 TB compact drives with you at all times. I do that now with FW800's for editing and file transfers from memory card cams.

I also love the way I don't have to deal with tape any more. SSD's and memory cards are great. I have not had to send a camera in for cleaning or head replacement in the last five years.

I think things are changing for the better. It is very efficient to recycle aluminum, and the boards, glass etc are also recycled. It is just the way of the future.

Olof Ekbergh


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 3:54:30 pm

[olof ekbergh] "I seem to drop my MBP hard every 3-4 years and my insurance always pays for a new one. So this is not such a bad thing. Sometimes earlier, or they are stolen."

I have to remind myself to play football with my laptops every couple of years. ;)
Some have noted that the new MBPr don't have a means to attach a lock to them anymore. It's either "find my laptop" or replace it. I guess stolen laptops increase market share.

[olof ekbergh] "I also used to replace all kinds of parts in computers, but now I just buy new ones because every 3-5 years you need a whole new system to keep up with current SW."

This is probably going to accelerate too as hardware and the software system demands increase more rapidly. It also creates a bigger used computer market which also increases Apple's market share.

[olof ekbergh] "I like the look and utility of the new MBPr and when I need a new MBP I will buy it. But my current 5,1 is running great with a 1TB internal HD."

Similar sentiment here as well. This is why, I think, in part Apple didn't even do a serious incremental update to the MacPro. Doing that would slow the move to whatever they have coming.



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Clint Wardlow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 4:24:00 pm

[olof ekbergh] "I like the look and utility of the new MBPr and when I need a new MBP I will buy it. But my current 5,1 is running great with a 1TB internal HD."

I think the fear is not so much in the laptop arena, but that Apple will start applying this model to their desktops. I mean does anyone really buy an imac or macpro with max ram from Apple? It is sooo much cheaper to get minimum ram and upgrade from a third party. Or also the idea that if a ram chip fails or some such you have to replace the whole motherboard.

The idea that someone would really spend like $8,000 for a tricked out Mac Pro that couldn't be upgraded seems ludicrous. But maybe this isn't the future of MAC desktops. We won't really know until Apple plays its desktop cards 6 to 16 months from now.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 4:38:32 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "The idea that someone would really spend like $8,000 for a tricked out Mac Pro that couldn't be upgraded seems ludicrous."

Not really if the changes over just a couple of years are so significant that you feel compelled as a professional to buy a new computer.

If you look at the price of a tricked out MBPr I wouldn't differentiate laptops from desktops that much. MBPr is not a "consumer" priced laptop. Even the base price is higher than top iMac and around the top BTO iMac.

Maybe you don't think MBPr will do well in the market but the lengthening back orders coupled with some anecdotal stories of some pros I know selling their current models to partially finance MBPr purchases, seems to say it will be a viable business model for Apple and something some Pro are willing to embrace.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 4:50:14 pm

In this thread, how many people own and operate Windows desktop machines for your video editing business?

How long have you been doing so?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:17:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "In this thread, how many people own and operate Windows desktop machines for your video editing business?

How long have you been doing so?
"


Does the past count? I edited on Windows for six or seven years.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:32:50 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Does the past count? I edited on Windows for six or seven years."

I edited solely on windows till '04 when I added FCP to my shop. Dropped windows for editing in '06, but still use windows for some audio (love Soundforge) and photoshop work, as well as all my financial and administrative stuff. Expect to be back to windows for video editing by 2014 at the latest.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:29:05 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Does the past count? I edited on Windows for six or seven years."

[Oliver Peters] "Not now, but in the past, since about 2000 (Avid Symphony). I only personally moved to Mac to be compatible with FCP. Currently some of my clients are on Windows (for Avid)."

[Herb Sevush] "I edited solely on windows till '04 when I added FCP to my shop. Dropped windows for editing in '06, but still use windows for some audio (love Soundforge) and photoshop work, as well as all my financial and administrative stuff. Expect to be back to windows for video editing by 2014 at the latest."

[Frank Gothmann] "40 per cent on Win since 2007, 70 per cent since August last year. Hopefully at 90 per cent by Autumn this year.
But I am not really an editor, we do other post work."


Thanks, guys.

When it was time to upgrade your Windows hardware, what did you do?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:44:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "When it was time to upgrade your Windows hardware, what did you do?
"


About the same as the Mac Pro, though with many more choices (and many more potential conflicts.) Bought a new card, component, or PC, depending on what was required.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:45:16 pm

[Chris Harlan] "About the same as the Mac Pro"

You mean you just bought a new computer?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:54:19 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "About the same as the Mac Pro"

You mean you just bought a new computer?"


Joke? No. I do things like upgrade RAM, upgrade GPUs, add i/o cards like external eSATA and Decklink. Upgrade hard drives. I may still add USB 3 to my current 8 Core.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:48:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "When it was time to upgrade your Windows hardware, what did you do?"

In the case of the Windows machines I have personally owned, I have both upgraded to another Windows machine as well as replaced with Macs. I haven't (yet) replaced a Mac with a Windows machine, but I do have client who have. The general deciding factor was the applications I've needed to run, more than the OS or even hardware.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:48:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Thanks, guys.

When it was time to upgrade your Windows hardware, what did you do?"


Depends on the machine and what it is used for. Bought the z800s with stock 12 GB of ram and upgraded to 48 plus other stuff later via 3rd party.

On our linux san we replaced mainboard, ram, cpu and power supply earlier this year for more slots and more beef.

I usually don't replace mainboards on a bought workstation for upgrades, I would if it's broken. But I have and always will one the machines that are custom built. There is one that has gone through three revisions already. The only thing that is still left from the first built is the case and the power supply.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Oliver Peters
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:56:18 pm

Of course, if you are asking about upgradeability, then I HAVE upgraded (or replaced parts on) every working machine (as opposed to family, person or casual use) I've owned - Mac or PC. More storage, RAM, video card upgrades, PCI/X/e cards, etc. Both towers (all of the above) and laptops (RAM & battery).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:15:32 pm

[Oliver Peters] "if you are asking about upgradeability, then I HAVE upgraded (or replaced parts on) every working machine (as opposed to family, person or casual use) I've owned"

I've upgraded everything from CPUs to GFX cards to Power Supplys and Ram on my windows computers since I first got one. It was only my NLE computers that I left up to my VAR's to deal with.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:19:01 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Depends on the machine and what it is used for. Bought the z800s with stock 12 GB of ram and upgraded to 48 plus other stuff later via 3rd party.
On our linux san we replaced mainboard, ram, cpu and power supply earlier this year for more slots and more beef.
I usually don't replace mainboards on a bought workstation for upgrades, I would if it's broken. But I have and always will one the machines that are custom built. There is one that has gone through three revisions already. The only thing that is still left from the first built is the case and the power supply."


[Oliver Peters] "In the case of the Windows machines I have personally owned, I have both upgraded to another Windows machine as well as replaced with Macs. I haven't (yet) replaced a Mac with a Windows machine, but I do have client who have. The general deciding factor was the applications I've needed to run, more than the OS or even hardware."

[Herb Sevush] "Back then my NLE's were turnkey operations with specific boards sold with specific computers. My last such system was a Discreet *edit and any upgrades and changes went through the local VAR / dealer.
This has changed to the point where today you can just shop around for the best deal, the way you do for an office computer, and upgrade the same way. You could go the HP / Dell / Lenovo route of business workstations or go to a smaller builder who specializes in video systems like ADK / Puget or build your own, if your so inclined."


[Chris Harlan] "Joke? No. I do things like upgrade RAM, upgrade GPUs, add i/o cards like external eSATA and Decklink. Upgrade hard drives. I may still add USB 3 to my current 8 Core."

[Oliver Peters] "Of course, if you are asking about upgradeability, then I HAVE upgraded (or replaced parts on) every working machine (as opposed to family, person or casual use) I've owned - Mac or PC. More storage, RAM, video card upgrades, PCI/X/e cards, etc. Both towers (all of the above) and laptops (RAM & battery)."


Yes, this is where I am going with this, Oliver.

I have really really tried to envision a PC future for myself. It is such a jungle out there, VARs must be so completely psyched about the people who are deciding to ditch Macs all together.

What I don't understand is that people say they "upgraded this CPU or that mobo" on a PC, and I am wondering did they actually do the work, or does that mean they send it in to where they bought, or back to the manufacturer for an upgrade?

At some point, PC run out of useful life. Sure, you might be able to stick a new GPU in there and perhaps upgrade the RAM, but nothing really makes a computer go faster than new and more efficient CPUs and an updated infrastructure in the form of a faster motherboard. GPUs might extend the life of a computer for another year or so, but eventually, that too won't be enough.

I am trying to look at all of this practically.

It seems that while the PC side seems to praise the "tinker" aspect of it, I am trying to get a sense of just how much tinkering really happens and how often, and does that really equate to cost savings, or perhaps more importantly performance gains in relation to those costs.

Earlier this year, I upgraded my MBP from 4 to 8GBs of RAM (it's all it can handle). It was very cheap and easy, but did it really extend the life of this computer? Not really. It helped Lion to run smoother, but it wasn't a performance upgrade. I also tore out the superdirve and added a second internal drive. This allows me to take small projects with me on just the internal. That was a convenience upgrade, not a performance upgrade.

If I decided to go CS6, I could probably put a Quadro 4000 in both MacPros and get maybe another year, but it won't make the job go any faster.

I am just trying to weight what's truly better, or what has more options. More options does not always equal better, but it can lead to more possibilities good and bad.

Jeremy


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:34:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What I don't understand is that people say they "upgraded this CPU or that mobo" on a PC, and I am wondering did they actually do the work, or does that mean they send it in to where they bought, or back to the manufacturer for an upgrade?"

Usually that means that they did the work.

[Jeremy Garchow] "It seems that while the PC side seems to praise the "tinker" aspect of it, I am trying to get a sense of just how much tinkering really happens and how often, and does that really equate to cost savings, or perhaps more importantly performance gains in relation to those costs.
"


There really is a whole tinkering culture on the PC side that has no serious analog in the Mac world. Once upon a time cost-saving might have been involved, but when desktop computers hit near-comodity status, it was seldom cheeper to build instead of buy. Now much of it is optimization or personalization. Gamers, particularly, customize and hot-rod out their machines. As more expensive desktops and workstations become a niche again, I think you'll see cost-related tinkering again, as people work to squeeze more life out of their sizzle cores.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:42:04 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Gamers, particularly, customize and hot-rod out their machines. As more expensive desktops and workstations become a niche again, I think you'll see cost-related tinkering again, as people work to squeeze more life out of their sizzle cores."

The biggest customization area now are hackintoshes. College kids are building $650 OSX machines - this is seen as both a challenge and a way to save money. The Videoguys DIY build lists lay out the parts to build super fast i7 PC editing machines for anywhere from 1500 to 2500. This is not something I'm interested in doing, but the PC side of things has always had a hot rod mentality as part of the culture.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:41:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am trying to look at all of this practically.

It seems that while the PC side seems to praise the "tinker" aspect of it, I am trying to get a sense of just how much tinkering really happens and how often, and does that really equate to cost savings, or perhaps more importantly performance gains in relation to those costs."


Sometimes tinkering doesn't make sense, sometimes it does - bigtime. First thing is that replacing this parts isn't difficult. It's dead easy, for anybody. As is building a PC from scratch. Once people loss the fear and just dive in it's simple. I've swapped tons of stuff around and I never managed to break anything and, probably more important, I never had a case where things didn't work together. Compatibility of components really isn't an issue (just the usual one on one, right socket for the right cpu etc. but that's just normal planning before you buy)

Here is an example where tinkering saved me a lot:
We connect to our San via 10GB Ethernet. Machine is all selft built, running Linux. When we built it it was serving out to four clients via 10GB and others via regular 1GB. We put in two 10GB nics which have 2 ports each (that't the max as we don't use optical but regular cat6a), ie. four ports with direct connection to the clients.
Earlier this year we needed fast access for two additional clients. Now... there was no more space for another 10GB nic because all slots were occupied. A 10GB Ethernet router still costs around 10.000 dollars.
So, we simply swapped the mainboard with more PCI slots. Added a faster CPU (we went with a really basic AMD consumer grade cpu at the beginning), power supply. Total cost of the upgrade: 600 dollars, with one more slot still empty in case we need to add yet another two clients.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 8:00:18 pm

Thanks, Frank.

[Frank Gothmann] "Machine is all selft built, running Linux. "

I think you can stop right there. ;)

I am not interested in building my machines, although I know I would enjoy it.

I am talking about buying ,say, an HP z820. I want to "upgrade the motherboard", do I call HP and have them send a new one or does it not work like that?

More broadly, I am trying to take a litmus test as to how much user upgradability is truly useful today in machines that you buy from a vendor, not a bunch of parts you assemble yourself.

We typically get 3 maybe 4 years out of machines.

On a side note, what are you sing to mange your SAN, metaSAN or something?


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 8:35:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am talking about buying ,say, an HP z820. I want to "upgrade the motherboard", do I call HP and have them send a new one or does it not work like that?

More broadly, I am trying to take a litmus test as to how much user upgradability is truly useful today in machines that you buy from a vendor, not a bunch of parts you assemble yourself.

We typically get 3 maybe 4 years out of machines.

On a side note, what are you sing to mange your SAN, metaSAN or something?
"


You could call HP or your VAR.
But, that's why I have said I wouldn't really upgrade the MB on such a machine, you'd also need the different CPUs, Ram etc. so at the end of the day it might cost you as much as a new machine. Bascially because that most expensive pieces in such a machine are the Xeon CPUs.
But what's perfectly feasible and even available via the HP online store is going from a single socket machine to an upgraded dual CPU machine.
Or to faster CPUs.
Plus of course the usual stuff you can swap and replace: power supply, hot swap drive bays, USB3 and eSata for machines that don't have it yet, GPUs, additional network cards etc.

We looked into metaSAN but eventually decided to go the NAS route via Samba, AFP and NFS. I might have to build a second shared storage machine this year and that one might go the Fibre/metaSan route. I haven't really looked into it as the whole transitioning away from FCP has kept my busy and my nerves thin.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 8:37:03 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "But, that's why I have said I wouldn't really upgrade the MB on such a machine, you'd also need the different CPUs, Ram etc. so at the end of the day it might cost you as much as a new machine. Bascially because that most expensive pieces in such a machine are the Xeon CPUs.
But what's perfectly feasible and even available via the HP online store is going from a single socket machine to an upgraded dual CPU machine.
Or to faster CPUs.
Plus of course the usual stuff you can swap and replace: power supply, hot swap drive bays, USB3 and eSata for machines that don't have it yet, GPUs, additional network cards etc."


Thanks.

[Frank Gothmann] "We looked into metaSAN but eventually decided to go the NAS route via Samba, AFP and NFS. I might have to build a second shared storage machine this year and that one might go the Fibre/metaSan route. I haven't really looked into it as the whole transitioning away from FCP has kept my busy and my nerves thin."

I hear you, there's enough going on.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 8:08:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If I decided to go CS6, I could probably put a Quadro 4000 in both MacPros and get maybe another year, but it won't make the job go any faster."

I've done that comparison and the 4000 is only marginally better when you actually do most of the things you really do in editing. And it crashed more with some effects. So the 5870 is actually just fine.

In the past when I've worked with clients who had made the move from FCP/G5 to CS/HP (with an Axio system), the ancilliary things you end up doing in the OS during the normal course of the day that you take for granted, start to really get to you in Windows. At least it did for us. In the end, we both hated doing some of the things in Windows - and the amount of real-time effects we had hoped to achieve wasn't really better - that he ended up going back to FCP and buying a newer MP.

I don't fall into the "PC is cheaper" camp. In fact, when I've done apples-to-apples comparisons (pun intended), the Apple product was actually cheaper. Figure a mobile workstation laptop versus a MBP or an 8-core Z800 versus an 8-core MP - and add in things like FW800 - and all of a sudden the comparable PC product is significantly more expensive. The advantage, though, is that you can finder cheaper (non-qualified) configurations in the PC world, which makes the price comparison lower and artificially in favor of PCs.

Ultimately you have to look at what it is that you do. Straight-forward editing, basic motion graphics and color correction? Then current machines still have plenty of life. Heavy-duty AE, Nuke, 3D work? Then you need a performance fire-breather.

Just as with the discussions over X, the reality is that most users are simply continuing with 7. So, for me, no real interest (or need) in moving out of the Apple ecosystem just yet.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 8:20:06 pm

[Oliver Peters] "In the past when I've worked with clients who had made the move from FCP/G5 to CS/HP (with an Axio system), the ancilliary things you end up doing in the OS during the normal course of the day that you take for granted, start to really get to you in Windows. At least it did for us. In the end, we both hated doing some of the things in Windows - and the amount of real-time effects we had hoped to achieve wasn't really better "

This is the intangible that I have the most trouble putting down on virtual paper.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 9:16:43 pm

hey - out of curiosity, what do you think this is likely to boil down to? where does this actually go?

windows is going for an australian walkabout with Win8: tablet/RT/ARM/no start menu/Metro first class apps dictats,

and Apple looks to be progressively hermetically sealing their hardware - barring Cook's something great in 12-ish months..

to an extent - what the hell? how does this actually play through?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 9:48:04 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "to an extent - what the hell? how does this actually play through?"

You mean the answer isn't clear?

It's easy, buy a Jaguar as a wireless iPhone controller and your life's problems will be solved.







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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 11:02:45 pm

nice! on the whole, I'd like to think I'm not going to headbutt myself with my MBP.

look - I'm not here, I only spoke in curiosity to oliver - I only mean that the meme of belligerent transference to windows looks a little dodgy considering where they are headed?
they seem to be strongly deprecating the traditional windows software ecosystem?

if there really isn't a plausible mac exit for the built up video production community - bar crazy big iron moves to Avid stuff - then in terms of small to mid scale facility local repair hardware, we have:

critically ageing facility MacPros *everywhere* (seriously aren't they? anyone?), small shop iMacs that run better than most of the facility MacPros, and an email from tim cook, saying that something good might happen in the next 12 months with regard to open hardware.

It's nothing new, I'm regurgitating merrily here, but this is a bad bind to some degree. Windows will never replicate the intellectual business concern that lead to Pro Res, FCP, Quicktime, etc. And Apple are very likely to be evermore drawn to closed consumer objects.

we may be screwed.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:52:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "When it was time to upgrade your Windows hardware, what did you do?"

Back then my NLE's were turnkey operations with specific boards sold with specific computers. My last such system was a Discreet *edit and any upgrades and changes went through the local VAR / dealer.

This has changed to the point where today you can just shop around for the best deal, the way you do for an office computer, and upgrade the same way. You could go the HP / Dell / Lenovo route of business workstations or go to a smaller builder who specializes in video systems like ADK / Puget or build your own, if your so inclined.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:26:38 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "In this thread, how many people own and operate Windows desktop machines for your video editing business?"

Not now, but in the past, since about 2000 (Avid Symphony). I only personally moved to Mac to be compatible with FCP. Currently some of my clients are on Windows (for Avid).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:34:44 pm

[Oliver Peters] " I only personally moved to Mac to be compatible with FCP"

That's what got me on board, too.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:44:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "In this thread, how many people own and operate Windows desktop machines for your video editing business?

How long have you been doing so?"


40 per cent on Win since 2007, 70 per cent since August last year. Hopefully at 90 per cent by Autumn this year.
But I am not really an editor, we do other post work.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 4:56:12 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Maybe you don't think MBPr will do well in the market but the lengthening back orders coupled with some anecdotal stories of some pros I know selling their current models to partially finance MBPr purchases, seems to say it will be a viable business model for Apple and something some Pro are willing to embrace."

While I agree this may work with laptops, I still am not so sure it will work with "big iron" towers. And yes a lot of folks are lining up to buy the mbp (this always seems to happen with new apple products) it is the longevity of sales that matter -- though I admit I think the MBP is going to be a big success. There are those that will always embrace the Apple model whatever it may be.

But, as this forum is an indicator, over the last couple of years Apple's behavior has also caused a lot of formerly loyal users to jump ship or at least embrace cross-platform workflows.

However it plays out, I don't think it will hurt Apple's bottom line no matter if the Pro market rallies behind Apple or abandons it completely.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:38:13 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "While I agree this may work with laptops, I still am not so sure it will work with "big iron" towers"

I'm not sure either. Apple likes to gamble though. They can afford to. I think the biggest variable will be how they handle GPU and RAM. Those are two needs that can grow much faster than even a relatively short life cycle.

[Clint Wardlow] "But, as this forum is an indicator, over the last couple of years Apple's behavior has also caused a lot of formerly loyal users to jump ship or at least embrace cross-platform workflows."

Part of the gamble on shorter life cycles though are that people may again be willing to move in a couple of years. This would mean that some things would have to occur in the market for Windows users to consider shorter life cycles as well.



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olof ekbergh
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 4:50:48 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I think the fear is not so much in the laptop arena, but that Apple will start applying this model to their desktops. I mean does anyone really buy an imac or macpro with max ram from Apple? It is sooo much cheaper to get minimum ram and upgrade from a third party. Or also the idea that if a ram chip fails or some such you have to replace the whole motherboard.

The idea that someone would really spend like $8,000 for a tricked out Mac Pro that couldn't be upgraded seems ludicrous. But maybe this isn't the future of MAC desktops. We won't really know until Apple plays its desktop cards 6 to 16 months from now."


I just replaced my main editing MP 4 year old 8core, with maxed out iMac. It runs circles around my MP. And it is quiet. I still have the 8core system with its 12 drive promise SAS raid that sounds like a jet taking off and is banished to another room. My new 6TB raid is tiny and just as fast and it is quiet.

The cost of the system was $2,600.00 2GB Vram and 16GB Ram 2TB internal. The LaCie 6TB RAID $700.00. The speed of the raid is about the same as the old ATTO 380 PCIe setup that cost over $4,000.00.

I can't remember exactly how much the MP and 30" screen was, but it was much more than the iMac and the iMac is way faster. It works perfectly for what I do FCPX with a MX02 for SDI monitoring.

The MP is still running fine as a M100/FCP7 suite with AJA LHe (also EOL'd). And I will use it for years to come, but the new iMac is now my fastest and main edit suite.

So for me the 8core MP my third one will probably be my last tower. I look forward to see what Apple has in store for us.

I really like quiet without a lot of extra architecture.

Olof Ekbergh


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:07:07 pm

[olof ekbergh] "The cost of the system was $2,600.00 2GB Vram and 16GB Ram 2TB internal. The LaCie 6TB RAID $700.00. The speed of the raid is about the same as the old ATTO 380 PCIe setup that cost over $4,000.00."

I am curious, I have pretty much the same imac set-up which works fine with straight editing. However, since I have begun delving into AfterEffects over the last year I find it is often not enough machine when my effects start getting complicated. That is why I am looking to purchase more power.

Do you do a lot of effects compositing? I admit I am kind of green at this and may be doing something wrong. However, I am longing for something that takes more advantage of cuda and the mercury engine.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:41:19 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I am curious, I have pretty much the same imac set-up which works fine with straight editing. However, since I have begun delving into AfterEffects over the last year I find it is often not enough machine when my effects start getting complicated. That is why I am looking to purchase more power."

Barefeats regularly publishes benchmarks with Brian Maffitt's unofficial AE performance test, Total Benchmark.

A top of the line 2011 iMac will trounce a 2008 8-core Mac Pro. The fastest 2008 8-core at 3.2 GHz runs Total Benchmark in 127 seconds. The fastest 2011 iMac runs it in 95.

The fastest 2010 Mac Pro (12-core 2.93 GHz) beats the fastest 2011 iMac by a mile, running Total Benchmark in 45 seconds.

The current speed champ, though, is a PC: a 2012 16-core ProMAX ONE workstation clocks in at only 24 seconds for Total Benchmark.

Relative to a top-of-the-line 2008 Mac Pro, the 2011 iMac is 1.33x faster, the 2010 Mac Pro is 2.82x faster, and a current top-of-the-line PC is 5.3x faster.

Relative to the top-of-the-line 2011 iMac, the 2008 Mac Pro runs 1.33x slower, the 2010 Mac Pro is 2.11x faster, and a current top-of-the-line PC is 3.95x faster.

In other news, we're going to need a new standard AE benchmark soon.

Supporting links:
http://www.barefeats.com/harper.html
http://www.barefeats.com/imac11f.html
http://www.barefeats.com/wst10c.html
http://barefeats.com/sandy01.html

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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olof ekbergh
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:42:43 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I am curious, I have pretty much the same imac set-up which works fine with straight editing. However, since I have begun delving into AfterEffects over the last year I find it is often not enough machine when my effects start getting complicated. That is why I am looking to purchase more power.

Do you do a lot of effects compositing? I admit I am kind of green at this and may be doing something wrong. However, I am longing for something that takes more advantage of cuda and the mercury engine."


I do mostly simple editing but I do use AE and Motion for some compositing as well as Boris RED.

AE has always been my favourite and it still is. It has never been a real time full res tool for me, but I enjoy working in it anyway. It is very easy to use and powerful.

Photoshop, Illustrator and AE are essential tolls for me. I find they run faster on my new iMac than my 8core MP.

If I spent all day in AE with hundreds of layers or if I did a lot of 3D etc, then I would definitely be looking for a more powerful workstation and render farm. And I think if that is what you really need Macs probably are not in your future. But for me maybe 5% of what I do requires AE. I just like to tell stories and most of that is really just plain A/B cuts and audio editing.

We often use AE graphic packages from designers that we then use them in our projects compositing in AE. So for "light" AE I think the iMac is great.

When I first started authoring DVD's back in the 90's I bought 2 Windows systems for that and neither worked very well. I ended up coming back to the Mac and I have not used Windows since then for Video. I would buy whatever machine is necessary for my business I really don't care about the brand. I am just much more comfortable with Macs, so as log as they do what I need I will buy them. And currently they work perfectly for me.

Olof Ekbergh


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Bret Williams
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:09:35 pm

I thought your 8 core is still a faster machine in all tests I've seen available. However, for FCP 7 the iMac would be faster since FCP only utilizes one processor. You would have seen a speed bump going to the old 6 core 3.67 ( I think) ghz. But apps like AE, Compressor, Motion would not. It seems FCP X is pretty tuned to the i7 so it probably runs smoother on the iMac.

In any case, I personally would be happy with some sort of super iMac. Maybe 8 core with nvidia graphics capability. Right now AE ray tracing is a dead concept on my iMac due to the radeon 6970m card. I have to set aside a day or two for rendering. It's 1996 again! I could get a PC, but they're not REALLY much cheaper when get into what I'd want.

A new MacPro at this point should of be as simple as an apple branded hackintosh.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 10:36:35 pm

[Bret Williams] "I thought your 8 core is still a faster machine in all tests I've seen available. However, for FCP 7 the iMac would be faster since FCP only utilizes one processor."

You've said that before in another post and it just isn't true. FCP7 doesn't use only one processor. It's actually among the very best of Apple's own apps with regards to multi-threadding.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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tony west
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 4:28:32 pm

[olof ekbergh] "I also used to replace all kinds of parts in computers, but now I just buy new ones because every 3-5 years you need a whole new system to keep up with current SW."

Very insightful post Olof.

You spend a chunk of money on a top end computer and in three years something comes out to make your computer look like a donkey.

Once that happens folks just want to jump on that new horse.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:26:12 pm

[olof ekbergh] "They are made to be recycled not repaired."

[olof ekbergh] "I think things are changing for the better. It is very efficient to recycle aluminum, and the boards, glass etc are also recycled. It is just the way of the future."


... then you haven't read the linked article:

"...the display is fused to the glass, which means replacing the LCD requires buying an expensive display assembly ... The design may well be comprised of “highly recyclable aluminum and glass” — but my friends in the electronics recycling industry tell me they have no way of recycling aluminum that has glass glued to it like Apple did with both this machine and the recent iPad."

So this is not "made to be recycled", regardless of marketing spin.

An innovative tech company might be taking on the issue of what happens to their products after short life-cycles.

Franz.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:04:18 pm

[Davee Schulte] "The laptop is a crappy product because it can't be easily upgraded?"

Can't be easily upgraded? It can't be upgraded at all. But that is not the issue. The issue is that if any part fails, the entire unit fails. Considering that this unit is nearly 3 to 4 grand in a useable configuration, that seems to me to be a point worth discussing. I don't think anyone has called this unit "crappy," but don't you think this is a potential pitfall that people should know about when they put their money down? Or is even mumbling about potential Apple downsides taboo?


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olof ekbergh
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:19:16 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Can't be easily upgraded? It can't be upgraded at all. But that is not the issue. The issue is that if any part fails, the entire unit fails. Considering that this unit is nearly 3 to 4 grand in a useable configuration, that seems to me to be a point worth discussing. I don't think anyone has called this unit "crappy," but don't you think this is a potential pitfall that people should know about when they put their money down? Or is even mumbling about potential Apple downsides taboo?"

With Apple care you have 3 year warranty. And if you drop it or it is otherwise damaged insurance will pay for the replacement.

Who cares what has to be done to repair a broken tool. My guess is that Apple will do some component repair at factory rebuild sites, not just replace the whole computer. But even if they just recycle it and give you a new one, then that is fine with me.

If it breaks after 3 years you probably want a new one anyway.

Olof Ekbergh


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:24:04 pm

[olof ekbergh] "[Chris Harlan] "Can't be easily upgraded? It can't be upgraded at all. But that is not the issue. The issue is that if any part fails, the entire unit fails. Considering that this unit is nearly 3 to 4 grand in a useable configuration, that seems to me to be a point worth discussing. I don't think anyone has called this unit "crappy," but don't you think this is a potential pitfall that people should know about when they put their money down? Or is even mumbling about potential Apple downsides taboo?"

With Apple care you have 3 year warranty. And if you drop it or it is otherwise damaged insurance will pay for the replacement.

Who cares what has to be done to repair a broken tool. My guess is that Apple will do some component repair at factory rebuild sites, not just replace the whole computer. But even if they just recycle it and give you a new one, then that is fine with me.

If it breaks after 3 years you probably want a new one anyway.
"


Hey Olaf. That might be great for you. But why exactly do you fan bois get so hot and dismissive over people even discussing these things? I just don't get it.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:50:46 pm

[Chris Harlan] "The issue is that if any part fails, the entire unit fails."

Apple's position may be that it's easier to replace than repair.
That just as Apple hit the VARs with FCPX distribution, they may kill independent repairs.

BTW this also why I say people have it wrong when they argue Apple has gone consumer over pro.
They've become commodity. Higher volume sales. Shorter life cycles. Replace rather than repair.

I can't help but think Apple mapped out the costs of service vs replacement vs system sales. Also the gains over supply when third party RAM suppliers or "system mod" companies like OWC can no longer sell some things to the public because everything goes through Apple.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 16, 2012 at 12:41:09 am

[Craig Seeman] "[Chris Harlan] "The issue is that if any part fails, the entire unit fails."

Apple's position may be that it's easier to replace than repair.
That just as Apple hit the VARs with FCPX distribution, they may kill independent repairs.

BTW this also why I say people have it wrong when they argue Apple has gone consumer over pro.
They've become commodity. Higher volume sales. Shorter life cycles. Replace rather than repair.

I can't help but think Apple mapped out the costs of service vs replacement vs system sales. Also the gains over supply when third party RAM suppliers or "system mod" companies like OWC can no longer sell some things to the public because everything goes through Apple.
"


I agree. I'm sure that's there plan. And its Jobsian, for sure. Apparently Woz had to fight with him to put expansion slots into thel Apple 2. And, frankly, I don't even know what I think of it yet. Might be a solid approach. I'm still thinking about the way it effects me. Do I really want to spend four grand on a computer if my daughter can't use it in four years? Above, I was just reacting to people who seem dismissive of even discussing such changes. I find it funny how defensive some Apple users can be.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:00:57 pm

I think Mr. Wiens is vastly overestimating most people's interest in servicing their own electronics.

Best,
Andy


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:12:34 pm

[Andrew Richards] "I think Mr. Wiens is vastly overestimating most people's interest in servicing their own electronics.
"


I'm not sure about that. Certainly not among our crowd. Or among the people who are aware of his site. And, I think it is an important idea to get out there and understand. I was looking at the low end price tag the other day, and in the back of my head, as is always the case, I was thinking I can always upgrade. Its sort of a reflex. Who'd think you can't put in more memory? Who'd think you can't put in a bigger hard drive? It was ban enough when Apple dropped the easily replaceable battery. So, no, I'm glad for his article. Everybody should know what they're getting in to. And, that's all he's really saying.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:23:17 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I'm not sure about that. Certainly not among our crowd. Or among the people who are aware of his site."

Yeah, and those crowds aren't most people. You know, "normal" people. Not us. He's appealing to the hand of the market, and the market is overwhelmingly populated by people who have no interest in servicing their own laptop. Even if everyone on the COW and everyone who frequents iFixit boycotted sealed laptops (assuming they were ever part of the MBA buying public), it wouldn't make a dent in Apple's sales and thus it wouldn't convince the other guys to stop chasing that "Ultrabook" ideal that necessarily means a rather unserviceable device.

Best,
Andy


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:32:37 pm

[Andrew Richards] "[Chris Harlan] "I'm not sure about that. Certainly not among our crowd. Or among the people who are aware of his site."

Yeah, and those crowds aren't most people. You know, "normal" people. Not us. "


Obviously, Andy. My point was in the rest of what I said.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:41:46 pm

[Chris Harlan] "My point was in the rest of what I said."

This, right?

[Chris Harlan] "Everybody should know what they're getting in to. And, that's all he's really saying."

Look at the last four paragraphs of the article. He is directly imploring the MacBook buying public to not reward Apple (and by association the Ultrabook PC makers) for making sealed devices. He's playing soothsayer for the market. Most people don't care to service their own laptop, so his appeal is sort of quixotic.

Best,
Andy


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:00:37 pm

[Andrew Richards] "[Chris Harlan] "My point was in the rest of what I said."

This, right?

[Chris Harlan] "Everybody should know what they're getting in to. And, that's all he's really saying."

Look at the last four paragraphs of the article. He is directly imploring the MacBook buying public to not reward Apple (and by association the Ultrabook PC makers) for making sealed devices. He's playing soothsayer for the market. Most people don't care to service their own laptop, so his appeal is sort of quixotic.
"


I would suggest that you go back and read the last four paragraphs for yourself. I just did. I don't see anything that you are claiming above. To quote:

Every time we buy a locked down product containing a non-replaceable battery with a finite cycle count, we’re voicing our opinion on how long our things should last. But is it an informed decision? When you buy something, how often do you really step back and ask how long it should last? If we want long-lasting products that retain their value, we have to support products that do so.

Today, we choose. If we choose the Retina display over the existing MacBook Pro, the next generation of Mac laptops will likely be less repairable still. When that happens, we won’t be able to blame Apple. We’ll have to blame ourselves


I stand by my earlier statement quoted above.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:05:17 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I stand by my earlier statement quoted above."

Every time we buy a locked down product containing a non-replaceable battery with a finite cycle count, we’re voicing our opinion on how long our things should last. But is it an informed decision? When you buy something, how often do you really step back and ask how long it should last? If we want long-lasting products that retain their value, we have to support products that do so.

Today, we choose. If we choose the Retina display over the existing MacBook Pro, the next generation of Mac laptops will likely be less repairable still. When that happens, we won’t be able to blame Apple. We’ll have to blame ourselves.


The part in bold supports my point, the part not in bold supports yours. I guess we're both right.

Best,
Andy


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:17:35 pm

[Andrew Richards] "[Chris Harlan] "I stand by my earlier statement quoted above."

Every time we buy a locked down product containing a non-replaceable battery with a finite cycle count, we’re voicing our opinion on how long our things should last. But is it an informed decision? When you buy something, how often do you really step back and ask how long it should last? If we want long-lasting products that retain their value, we have to support products that do so.

Today, we choose. If we choose the Retina display over the existing MacBook Pro, the next generation of Mac laptops will likely be less repairable still. When that happens, we won’t be able to blame Apple. We’ll have to blame ourselves.

The part in bold supports my point, the part not in bold supports yours. I guess we're both right.

Best,
Andy"


Andy, I get that his preference is in the direction of non-disposible. Mine is too. But I disagree with your bold assertion. I still read it as him laying out what the choice is.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:43:54 pm

[Andrew Richards] "... it wouldn't make a dent in Apple's sales ..."

Andrew,


The thing is, you're essentially asking us to see it from Apple's perspective. Craig (and others) often make the same argument here.

It's not an argument without purpose, but my feeling has always been that I Apple can take care of its own perspective. What people come to the forums for is the perspective of editors and those in post - how changes in technology impact on us and the people we deal with.

The market will do what the market will do - I can get that perspective from the tech section in the daily paper.

It's good to come here to see a more relevant perspective.


Franz.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:52:42 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "The thing is, you're essentially asking us to see it from Apple's perspective. Craig (and others) often make the same argument here."

If you say so.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "What people come to the forums for is the perspective of editors and those in post - how changes in technology impact on us and the people we deal with."

Allow me to make it more relevant then. Does anyone here service their own broadcast monitor? Mixer? Vectorscope? Camera? Lenses? VTR?

Or do you pay a qualified tech a few hundred bucks to fix them if they break?

Best,
Andy


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:20:20 pm

[Andrew Richards] "Allow me to make it more relevant then. Does anyone here service their own broadcast monitor? Mixer? Vectorscope? Camera? Lenses? VTR?"


Andrew,


You are raising the more interesting question.

There are those who will prefer to have a camera with a built-in lens, and built-in batteries.

There are those who will prefer to buy cameras with interchange-able lenses. Likewise with batteries that can be replaced with spares or replaced.

My own monitor does have an SDI module that I could purchase if I wished. The last monitor (SD), likewise.

You're raising the question of to what extent things need to be serviceable (not just user-serviceable) and expandable (not just user-expandable).

I take it you're satisfied with the direction of Apple's offerings. Is there a certain basic expandability or serviceability you would require? What would that be?


Franz.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:15:39 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I take it you're satisfied with the direction of Apple's offerings. Is there a certain basic expandability or serviceability you would require? What would that be? "

I have a 2010 MacBook Air, and I'm happy with it. I ordered it with max RAM, knowing that I would not be able to upgrade it later.

I've also had a number of other older MacBooks, as well as a 2005 G5 tower and a 2010 Mac Pro. I've disassembled non-unibody MBPs to exchange an HDD for an SSD, and did the same with a white plastic MacBook. I've swapped RAM on nearly every computer I've ever owned. I've paint-scrapered my way into Mac minis (the old design). I've got a very exotic setup inside that 2010 Mac Pro, which isn't even running OS X anymore.

I do like to do-it-myself, but I also understand that serviceability leads to compromises in design. In the case of my "daily driver" MacBook Air, I accept the compromised servicablility for what I get in packaging efficiency. I personally do mourn the hard-soldered RAM compromise, and taking that decision up to the MacBook Pro may be too much of a compromise for that machine's core market. The Air is Apple's mainstream laptop, it is priced and marketed that way, and in that respect I can abide design choices that limit user-servicablility in exchange for design efficiency. Those users weren't going to open up their Macs anyway. But the MBPs? Might be a bit too far. Apple is clearly hedging its bets a little by continuing to sell the old form factor with new Ivy Bridge guts. They are treading lightly by Apple standards.

I don't share the pessimism that Apple is going to go on-board-RAM and custom form factor SSD with its desktops. What design problem does that solve? Desktops aren't chasing weight savings.

My own attitude is that I appreciate user-servicability when I have it, but I don't hold it up as an essential deal-breaker feature for most of my use cases. And there are a lot of use cases where Macs are a poor choice.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "There are those who will prefer to buy cameras with interchange-able lenses."

This analogy can cut both ways- on one hand, interchangeable lens cameras are like a computer with a quick-release HDD/ODD bay. Or on the other hand, are they more like a computer with a Thunderbolt port?

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Likewise with batteries that can be replaced with spares or replaced."

A necessity when the battery is only good for a matter of minutes. If the camera battery would last the whole shoot on a single charge, and be good for 5 years of recharge cycles, would you care? (Yes, of course you have spares for everything on a shoot, but we're in academic analogy space here.)

Best,
Andy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:05:12 pm

[Andrew Richards] "Or do you pay a qualified tech a few hundred bucks to fix them if they break?"

This is kind of where I see this going.

There's a bet here, and that bet is on solid state (and retina).

Sure, Apple is not the first to offer and implement solid state, but I bet they will be the first to possibly go all solid state. The MBAir was a test, and now that the capacities of solid state are cheap enough to include in a "pro" level machine, this is the next market test. Can photo/video Pros and not Business Sector Pros bang on these computers, and will they be able to survive?

If you look around, the entire computer industry loves solid state, it's just so damn expensive when you start getting in to massive quantities at a speed that's conducive to being "Pro" suitable. Apple could actually stand to change that, or perhaps they feel that right now is the time as the price is just about to be viable for designing computers around it.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:53:14 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There's a bet here, and that bet is on solid state (and retina)."

I've been all SSD for boot since early 2010 and now I can't stand to boot from a spinning disk. I have one bone-stock Mac mini with an HDD I use for testing odds and ends (it is my Mountain Lion sandbox for now), and the lag from its 5400 RPM HDD boot drive is excruciating when I'm used to SSDs on all my other rigs.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Can photo/video Pros and not Business Sector Pros bang on these computers, and will they be able to survive?"

It has always been best-practice to segregate boot and media storage, now the performance characteristics of that segregation are more profound. HDDs will remain the $/GB kings for a while, but as media storage goes, not a whole lot of HDD capacity ever fit inside a laptop anyway.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you look around, the entire computer industry loves solid state, it's just so damn expensive when you start getting in to massive quantities at a speed that's conducive to being "Pro" suitable."

It is expensive in terms of capacity, but SSD speed is well beyond anything an HDD can deliver in every performance category. You need an array of HDDs to match the performance of a single SATA III SSD. 500 MBps is typical for single SSDs now. Can't get that with any single HDD, even the 10K and 15K RPM enterprise SAS units.

If I'm spec'ing out a system today for video work, the only thing I'm using HDDs for is big data. Anything small like the OS, project files, and caches would go on an SSD. Sure would be nice if Apple would let us store FCPX renders somewhere other than the Projects folder...

Best,
Andy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 8:04:01 pm

Thanks, Andrew, you are eloquently reinforcing what I was trying to say.

Jeremy


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Davee Schulte
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 16, 2012 at 5:46:52 am

Have you had any drive failures with SSD?


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 16, 2012 at 11:52:48 am

[Davee Schulte] "Have you had any drive failures with SSD?"

Not yet. I even have a couple OCZ drives in service and I've read the horror stories with them. I've got two Apple factory SSDs, two OCZs (one Agility 2 and one Vertex 2) and an Intel 320. I store my big stuff on HDDs, including my backups.

The thing to remember about SSDs is they are consumable, they destroy themselves just to work. They will die after enough activity, so backups are as important (more important?) than ever.

But it's worth it! I almost never see beach balls. I don't wait for the computer to catch up to my input. On laptops especially, that is a big difference. The conventional wisdom has been to upgrade your RAM to "speed up" your computer. More RAM is always good, but if you really want to get the most bang for your upgrade buck today, swap your boot drive for an SSD. You can get smaller ones (60-120 GB) for around $1/GB now. Move all your local big data (media) off to a second HDD.

Best,
Andy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 16, 2012 at 4:09:59 pm

More on retina SSD if you haven't seen it already.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6005/apples-new-ssd-its-fast

Jeremy


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Richard Herd
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:33:06 pm

[Andrew Richards] "populated by people who have no interest in servicing their own laptop"

My hand is raised. I am he who couldn't care more...er, less...whatever. I care very little about fixing my own laptop, car, refrigerator, guitar, amp, shoes, buttons on shirts. I care very much when someone needs me to fix their film and video.


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Mark Bein
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:52:02 pm

I'm a bit sick, so just a few thoughts.

My guess: home user repair ability: 1
Apple service repair ability: 10

CPU /chipset are probably maxed out at 16gb anyway
RAM unlikely to fail if good parts are used

SSD can very likely be changed in the near future

Environment: What did you do with replaced RAM / battery?
Where do you think refurbished stuff comes from?
I've never seen a company selling so much refurbished stuff and so many people recommend said stuff.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:13:59 pm

[Mark Bein] "I've never seen a company selling so much refurbished stuff and so many people recommend said stuff."

Bingo and homerun on this point.
If I can use that without breaking the COW analogy law. ;)

As per replace vs repair. . .
Think of this . . . replace your damaged unit and then they repair and sell the refurb and they don't even have the any time pressure on repair turnaround. Refurb allows a lower price point as well.
I don't doubt that replace rather than repair and the refurb sales market may actually make Apple more money.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:17:19 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Bingo and homerun on this point.
If I can use that without breaking the COW analogy law. ;)

As per replace vs repair. . .
Think of this . . . replace your damaged unit and then they repair and sell the refurb and they don't even have the any time pressure on repair turnaround. Refurb allows a lower price point as well.
I don't doubt that replace rather than repair and the refurb sales market may actually make Apple more money."


And how does all this actually benefit you? When you need more ram you "replace" the entire machine? Why don't you just send money donations directly to Cupertino for the good cause of it all.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Mark Bein
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 7:29:32 pm

I don't see how it would hurt you either.
RAM is cheap these days - limiting factor is how much CPU/chipset can handle, this is a laptop after all.
Max out RAM at a reasonable price, have battery replaced when necessary, change SSD at will.
What's the big difference?


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Dustin Parsons
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:57:58 pm

I think it makes sense for the average consumer like my mom or brother who only use computers for surfing the internet, watching movies, and wordprocessing –their 4 year old machines can do everything they need just as good as new laptops Apple recently debuted. They also know absolutely nothing about the hardware they're using and don't care the learn so when something breaks, it's not a simple 5 minute google search to figure out what the problem is and how to fix, they don't even know the basics of where to start troubleshooting so it's much easier for them to bring it to Apple or someone who know's what they're doing.

For professionals, it's a completely different story. I'm on an Early 2008 MacPro and am working with terabytes of 1080p footage everyday, often creating motion graphics in AE and PS and generally pushing the processors and ram to their limits. That being the case, I recently upgraded the ram to 16GB and just yesterday purchased the nVIDIA Quadro 4000, I feel like I have a new computer and I didn't have to drop nearly the amount of $ as I would have if I actually did.

I think the main thing to remember is there are really 2 camps of people, the decidedly smaller camp of professional who need to upgrade more often to keep up with new technology and the much larger camp of average users who don't need to upgrade because their computers will be able to do everything they need it to up until the day it completely dies.


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Michael Hadley
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 6:45:11 pm

Whoa. This is a TOUGH crowd.

I've owned 5 apple laptops (and 6 desktops). Aside from adding more RAM and adding a larger hard drive, what more is there to do? If you are at the point where you need more RAM, a new drive and a card--well, time to get a new laptop methinks. 2-3 years for a laptop or tower is about it these days. I've still got plenty of old boxes and laptops kicking around but geez, the performance and OS gains leave me with no desire to work on a 5 year old system. Spending an extra $500-$1,000 to upgrade them seems like throwing good money after bad.

The new MBP Retina seems like a pretty screaming machine. But it is a comprise between features, performance and "fixability." Not perfect. A compromise. I'm good for now (just got two new MBPs in November) but for my workflow needs, the new feature/performance set seem pretty nice—and worth the compromise.

The only real bummer is that you have to max out the RAM upfront and AAPL RAM is much pricier than OWC.


Okay. Let the haters hate and the flamers flame. Apple=Satan.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 8:20:40 pm

[Michael Hadley] "The only real bummer is that you have to max out the RAM upfront and AAPL RAM is much pricier than OWC."

If you want to get 16GB from OWC for your non-Retina 2012 MBP (factory options are 2x2GB or 2x4GB only), it'll cost you $170+shipping.

The the 16GB RAM option on the Retina MBP is $200. Not exactly a gouge in this context.

Best,
Andy


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Michael Hadley
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 9:10:36 pm

I agree. Seems pretty reasonable.

(In the past, the extra memory from Apple was quite a bit more $$. Maybe they are compensating?)


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Davee Schulte
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 16, 2012 at 5:45:22 am

The RAM upgrade is only 200 from Apple. Not much difference


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Davee Schulte
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 16, 2012 at 5:41:57 am

Couldn't agree more. The new MBP can start with 16GB of RAM. Add that and some Thunderbolt drives. What more do you need to get you through the next 3 years??


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 9:54:37 pm

Also relevant to this thread:

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

Jeremy


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Andrew Richards
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 15, 2012 at 10:15:15 pm

The price to have the battery replaced on the 13" & 15", $129, is the same price as the removable batteries of past MacBooks.

Best,
Andy


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Chris Harlan
Re: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable. An iFixit Op-ed.
on Jun 16, 2012 at 1:02:27 am

[Andrew Richards] "The price to have the battery replaced on the 13" & 15", $129, is the same price as the removable batteries of past MacBooks.
"


That's cool to know.


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