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How come theses guys can do it before 2013?

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Lance Bachelder
How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 14, 2012 at 8:48:33 pm

This board looks sick!

Hackintosh anyone?

http://promos.asus.com/US/Z77/Thunderbolt/#.T9pNeY5SH8s

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Craig Seeman
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 14, 2012 at 9:44:39 pm

Let's see real world results.
Many have USB3 support as well but not all USB3 is the same apparently.
Consider that Blackmagic only certifies their Shuttle on one MSI laptop.
I suspect Apple, given their relationship with Microsoft, may be waiting for them to develop something.
The challenge is bringing GPU out of Thunderbolt and, so far, the Macs that have implemented Thunderbolt don't have 16xPCIe slotted GPU cards.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 14, 2012 at 10:22:39 pm

Why bring GPU out the Thunderbolt port? It's still only equivalant to a single PCIe 2.0 lane. The PCIe 3.0 16x slots on the new ASUS board for instance are 32x faster than a single Thunderbolt lane and there are 4 slots!

Intel is working on Thunderbolt version for PCIe 3.0 - maybe that is what Apple is planning and why we won't see it until next year?

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Craig Seeman
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 14, 2012 at 10:32:03 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Why bring GPU out the Thunderbolt port?"

Apple seems to want it that way.
The new MBPr has an HDMI out additionally (for example) but display out of Thunderbolt is part of Apple's standard plan.
One might say the "quick" solution would be to eschew GPU out of Thunderbolt and just go out of the GPU using previously normal methods. What would that do for Apple's Thunderbolt Monitor though. Apple's not one for interim solutions like that if they have a longer range plan. Given the "later next year" comment Apple would seem to be no where near ready. I'm sure they have something in mind and ASUS's solution is not the direction they want to go in.



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Andy Neil
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 14, 2012 at 9:49:13 pm

Speculating on the reason for Apple's timetable is meaningless, but if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that there is some technology element holding up the process, or a complete redesign is underway and is radically different, preventing them from releasing something quick. Perhaps they can't make retina displays for large monitors yet in significant numbers. Perhaps they're working on a new motherboard design that doesn't use standard components and they are building the components themselves. But I do think that if you assume they are planning on updating the line (or launching a replacement line), they would do it this year if they could.

Cool motherboard though.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Bernard Newnham
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 14, 2012 at 10:10:23 pm

"Consider that Blackmagic only certifies their Shuttle on one MSI laptop."

I rather think all that certification stuff is just a gesture really. There are loads of laptops and hundreds of combinations of motherboard, processor and memory, so it would be impossible to test on anything more than a very few. And as things in the pc world change and improve almost weekly, they'd have to do it all over again pretty soon.

My Blackmagic Intensity Pro works perfectly on both my pc and Hackintosh, and I can't at the moment remember what's in either. Manufacturers have to work in an environment where there's a basic standard that everyone works to - but the actual components come from all over the place. The fixed design of Apple gear stifles development in the same way that the game consoles do.

And Asus is quality stuff, the Rolls Royce of motherboards. And a lot cheaper that Apple.

Bernie


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Craig Seeman
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 14, 2012 at 10:37:00 pm

[Andy Neil] "Speculating on the reason for Apple's timetable is meaningless,"

Zen and the art of discussion at Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate forum. ;)

[Andy Neil] " but if I were to hazard a guess,"

All guesses are replete with hazard in this forum.

[Andy Neil] "if you assume they are planning on updating the line (or launching a replacement line), they would do it this year if they could."

Apple's way is not ASUS's. I suspect they have a more elegant solution which may take more time to implement. Well, we do know something is taking them more time.



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Andy Neil
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 12:11:46 am

[Craig Seeman] "Apple's way is not ASUS's. I suspect they have a more elegant solution which may take more time to implement. "

Not sure what ASUS means, but I agree that they are not simply going to cobble together new tech like thunderbolt into an existing tower design. If that were the case, they'd have released it last year.

The reason I think there's an issue somewhere, is that typically Apple has a pretty predictable update schedule. New Mac Pros are already late, and to have it now confirmed that the update might even be over a year away from now makes me wonder what the hold up is.

With the virtual beating that Apple's been taking from the pro community for a year now due to the FCPX roll out, I feel that if Cook could have announced a new tower, that he would have, if only to show the pro community that he still wants their business. I think that's what is behind the recent semi-forthcoming PR moves. He had to know going into WWDC that a lot of people's first question after the keynote was going to be, "Where's the Mac Pro?"

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:06:26 am

[Andy Neil] "He had to know going into WWDC that a lot of people's first question after the keynote was going to be, "Where's the Mac Pro?"
"


I don't know if he knew it going in, but he sure knew it going out.


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Robert Brown
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 3:41:20 am

I think Apple's strategy is completely puzzling. They need to send the message that they want professional business but I don't think they are sending that at all. What do people want who are willing to pay the high price for this box? They want state of the art basically as well as not having to spend a lot of time tweaking the thing. And the design and quietness of the Macs are also big factors I think, as well as OSX of course.

But a big thing IMO is that Apple lost a huge edge. Back around '04 remember that magazine add? It was a G5, with an Aja IO and you had an Avid killer for a lot less than what an Avid would cost and it looked pretty slick to boot. That was a very compelling reason to buy a Mac workstation regardless of how well it competed with whatever Windows box and was why I bought my first Mac.

Now it's a different story. Now there are several NLEs to choose from with FCP not even being an appealing one for many. So now why are you going to spend extra money for a Mac? Especially when they can't seem to send any coherent message about what they are going to do and when they don't even need the business anymore. I think even if they do continue to update the MP it's destined to become a smaller and smaller player and if they aren't careful they could lose the dominance they have because let's face it, they aren't really making anything that anybody else can't make. If they lose customer loyalty that could cost them big in a few years.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Phil Hoppes
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 1:57:31 pm

[Robert Brown] "But a big thing IMO is that Apple lost a huge edge"

$109B in annual revenue last year and you say they've lost an edge???? Sorry but I just can't take these kind of statements. Apple is moving away from the very high end and focusing on what brings them zillions of $$ in revenue every month. If your needs happen to fall into what they deem necessary to build in order to preserve those zillions that is great. Continue to use their products. If your needs don't overlap what Apple makes in hardware and software then move on to what you need to get your work done to keep your customers happy. To criticize a company's strategy simply because they have walked away from your specific needs might hold water if you could demonstrate that they've completely failed in the market because of such actions. As it is, Apple has broken just about every record and metric one can think of with their current strategy and product offerings. They are the envy of just about every manufacturing and retail outfit combined. I'd say their strategy is spot on working fantastic. I use their products for what works and where it does not, I use windows and Linux PC's. All work happy together and work just fine.

IMHO


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Craig Seeman
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:36:17 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "Apple is moving away from the very high end and focusing on what brings them zillions of $$ in revenue every month."

Moving away from very high end? That's debatable. I think a laptop with the highest resolution display on the market with two Thunderbolt ports and two USB3 ports and a quad core i7 is at least near the very high end in professional mobile computing.

Apple is not moving away from computers. They're working on expanding their computer market share. They've been successful at that. I expect they will continue to be but we'll have to see what happens next year.



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Phil Hoppes
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 3:11:02 pm

In terms of a "traditional" open platform the new MBP is definitely moving away. Like Henry Ford said, "You can get a car any color you want as long as it is black". I suspect that a new MacPro, if there even is one at all, is going to be quite similar. The already extreme lack of high end graphics card support already separates them from what I would classify as very high end.


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Richard Herd
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:13:34 pm

[Craig Seeman] "expanding their computer market share"

Yep. Of course, it's a business. There's a weird pseudo-reasoning popping up regularly that goes as follows: Because apple makes more money selling iToys, they are abandoning the pro market.

The opposite is actually true. They are segmenting the pro market and increasing their share of it.


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Phil Hoppes
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 5:35:03 pm

[Richard Herd] "They are segmenting the pro market and increasing their share of it."

Absolutely, and their "upgrade" last week to the MacPro certainly reinforces this for sure.


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Richard Herd
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 10:52:14 pm

Last week's mac pro update was Monday.
Smoke was on Tuesday.

I don't believe that was a coincidence.


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Phil Hoppes
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 11:14:36 pm

It's very simple. You happen to believe what people/corporations say. I happen to believe in what people/corporations do. There is a significant difference. I look at what Apple has done. What they have done is continuously refine and minimize their product line and streamline it for the 80/20 rule. They want that 80% sweet spot of the market. They don't play in the basement nor do they play in the very top end. The current MacPro in it's hayday was very far from the top end of a performance workstation that one could either buy or put together. It's graphic card selection has always been terrible and very very limited. They put in moderate speed HD's, their optical drives are a joke and they never put in the fastest CPU's that are available because they hate fan noise. That is a fact not hearsay. Still, they were fine machines. I had one but they have never been what I would consider to be "bleeding edge".

You mention Smoke and the MacPros in the same sentence. Then why at NAB and every where else you look are all demos for Smoke done on high end iMacs? It's simple... for 80% to 90% of the Smoke users that is all they need. I run Smoke on a MBP and it runs fine.

Tim Cook mentioned, after much badgering, that they have not abandoned the Pro market. While he really can't say bubkus without getting thrown in jail about a future product, it does not take a rocket scientist to project that a high end Mac is probably going to look far more like the migration of the old MacBook Pro to the new MacBook Pro than the old tower to some new one. An iMac with a slot perhaps or a uber MacMini as someone else has suggested. That being said, there is still a good chance that all he is taking about is an iMac with a faster i7 cpu inside. Do you seriously believe that damage was not done to the overall perception on MacPro users by the ridiculous "New" they posted on Monday? Do you really think that their current market share is going to RISE with an overpriced, under spec'ed, under performing BS box they are currently peddling and that customers who need a faster machine now are not either going to look at an uber iMac or switch to Windows? Both of those decisions decrease units and justifications for another tower and if anything the loyal Mac fan that opts for an uber iMac simply adds more justification for that type of product vs a stale toaster.


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Richard Herd
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 16, 2012 at 10:37:22 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "You happen to believe what people/corporations say. I happen to believe in what people/corporations do."

I'm with you here. I observe what they do, not the PR and marketing. I listed what two corporations did.

[Phil Hoppes] "a uber MacMini as someone else has suggested." That was me. I like the idea of being able to hook them together, assuming you can create some kind of render farm type thing.

[Phil Hoppes] " you seriously believe that damage was not done to the overall perception on MacPro users by the ridiculous "New" they posted on Monday?" Correct. It's not a big deal. The moment the next gadget hits the marketplace, all is forgiven -- like an etch-a-sketch. Most folks are just pissy, imo, because they're itching to buy some new toy. One guy around these-here-parts spent a lot of money and is in the same place he was last year--well...except now he doesn't have the money and he has to spend more. That's what I mean by "itching to buy some new toy."

[Phil Hoppes] "Do you really think that their current market share is going to RISE with an overpriced, under spec'ed, under performing BS box they are currently peddling and that customers who need a faster machine now are not either going to look at an uber iMac or switch to Windows?" Not exactly. First they are segmenting the market. Well, wait a minute, that was present progressive tense. I should have used past perfect: Apple has segmented the market. Now, they will try to gain market share, and last I saw total units sold of X outpaces pretty much every other NLE. If someone is in a APR422 workflow, they really don't get a choice to move to Windows. I can think of a few examples of people in this forum who are just bullheaded, refusing to run their edit bays on iMacs and X, for reasoning that is essentially whining or peacocking. No offense intended to those people. It's just that, like you said, "I happen to believe in what people/corporations do." My observations might be suspect of course, but having twin 2 year-old daughters, I'm an expert at detecting whining.

One last detail. I think your reasoning is backwards. Putting the new box out there (and it's cheap) at the same time Smoke put their software out there will not create a decline in market share. Make sense? It's a stop gap measure.

Also Apple has a lot of money so they can play the "pro" game for 10 years, while Avid is worried about next quarter. Adobe's NLE imo is weird. I use it a lot actually on a Windows box (a crummy one btw) and when I'm using it I always wish I was in X.


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Phil Hoppes
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 12:36:06 am

Because they are not going to make what you think they are making. My money is on a high end iMac or high end MacMini. That actually makes more sense. They will make some pizza box with limited expandability. Maybe... and that is a big one, Maybe an actual video slot and perhaps 1 or 2 sideways PCI slots but I really doubt that. Apple does not want you making 57 verities of their hardware. Their paltry lack of high end video card support is what drove me back to PC's 18 months ago. I wouldn't hold your breath on their attitude on this suddenly reversing. Look at their past actions in their largest volume markets and ask yourself what have they done? They've taken kinda expandable laptops and locked them into being fat iPads. You really think you are going to get a soup-to-nuts expandable tower version 2 out of a company that is clearly looking to simplify and minimize their product line? I think not.

Is that bad? Well maybe for some. For the lions share of who Apple wants to serve, it will be more than enough. They don't like bleeding edge. They don't want bleeding edge. They are not going to make bleeding edge.


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Robert Brown
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 12:57:25 am

I'm a ways off until need ing anything but I think a Hackintosh will be my next move. I still like OSX but would rather have control over what I have in there and Apple's behavior to me is almost intolerable. They do what they feel like, that seems to be the bottom line. I wonder how long they will be in this position.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Michael Gissing
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 1:05:05 am

Apple is a company that places a premium on outward appearance. Slim and shiny is in. The art & design dept is central to Apple.

What we want and need are ugly big boxes in a machine room with awful artistic aesthetic. Don't expect Apple to put out that sort of aesthetic so there is an inherent conflict.

Grunt is a square peg in Apple's sleek bevelled hole. Expect compromise and you won't be disappointed.


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Bernard Newnham
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 8:21:55 am

"Not sure what ASUS means, but I agree that they are not simply going to cobble together new tech like thunderbolt into an existing tower design. If that were the case, they'd have released it last year."

OK - Asus is one of the world's major motherboard manufacturers, amongst other things. Foxconn is another, and they are the ones who build motherboards that are put in an expensive shiny box labelled Apple.

What Lance was demonstrating in his first post was that Asus are selling the P8Z77-V Premium, which is a motherboard that has a Thunderbolt socket. Despite all the chat here from Mac Pro users, this really isn't a big deal in the outside world. If you look at the board, it has lots of connectors, and connections change and evolve all the time. You won't see a parallel printer port any more, nor a serial port, because their day has gone. You rarely see Firewire ports any more - not that they were that common anyway. Things change quickly outside the world of Apple.

Asus won't "cobble together new tech like thunderbolt into an existing tower" because they don't make towers - but using that motherboard you could build - tomorrow, not 2013 - a machine with any Ivy Bridge processor, huge amounts of memory and a GTX6xx video card. Drives, SSDs etc to your endless choice.

If a manufacturer was to build a game changer, it would have to run the x86 instruction set and more, and also run significantly faster for the same price. It seems that the day might come when that could be possible using a RISC based processor like ARM. But not this week.

Bernie


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Lance Bachelder
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 9:12:49 am

Thanks for "getting it" Bernard. I'll be cobbling together a system in the coming weeks based on this board- incredible tech in this thing including mSATA which means I don't need a spinning drive or an SSD for my system drive! I can ad a GTX680 and all the SATA6 drives I want for a system that can cut RED 4k natively! I need to do this sooner than later next year...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Bernard Newnham
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 11:57:19 am

I have an SSD for the system drive in this machine. You notice the difference especially in startup time, but everything that uses the operating system goes significant;y faster. SSDs seem to get cheaper daily.

Be aware, though, that not every system can run OSX well - though I think that most can. Much knowledge on this can be found at http://tonymacx86.com/ , and there's a good forum. With this new Asus board coming out, I expect a thread on its use will be there very soon.

Bernie


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Bobby Mosca
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 1:23:28 pm

Full Fiber-optic Thunderbolt? Not just the cable, but the whole kit and kaboodle.

That's asking a lot, though. Late 2013 would still be early for such a thing, but TB should at least be on PCI 3 by then.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 15, 2012 at 2:10:06 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "I'll be cobbling together a system in the coming weeks ..."

Lance,

I hope you'll be posting about your experience, for the benefit of the forum.

Franz.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: How come theses guys can do it before 2013?
on Jun 16, 2012 at 12:37:13 am

For sure.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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