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moody glasgow
New Mac Pro
on Jun 5, 2012 at 10:33:16 pm

Looks like it is not quite dead yet.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/05/mac-pro-to-finally-see-updates-next-wee...

moody glasgow
smoke/flame
http://www.thereelthinginc.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 5, 2012 at 11:39:22 pm

Any bets on a resdesign? Or same design?

Kepler, or no Kepler?

BPlus or AMinus?


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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 5, 2012 at 11:43:31 pm

We'll soon see, I'm sure there will be plenty to talk about.

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Craig Seeman
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 5, 2012 at 11:47:18 pm

COW should increase their ad rates targeting this forum after the release because the traffic and debate is going to be very hot.

I'm guessing a significan redesign myself.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 12:08:25 am

Yes and we all need profit sharing!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 12:10:41 am

[Lance Bachelder] "Yes and we all need profit sharing!"

We already are. I mean... you're not? I, uh... Hey, new Mac Pro, huh?


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Lance Bachelder
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 12:15:54 am

Ah.. I see how it is. Ron you listening?

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 12:29:12 am

No soup for you. There would have been much less to talk about if you people had believed me all along. And I doubt that little if any of the talk next week is about how I was right all along. Hahahaha!

And no kidding guys, this has been no longer than the wait between the first two Mac Pro models. Too bad that after all this time, though, it won't be as mightily configurable as a Windows box. Hahahaha!

But I think you're right that we should increase ad rates in this forum. Let me speak to one of the responsible adults who works here.
Hahahaha!

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Craig Seeman
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 12:36:33 am

[Tim Wilson] "There would have been much less to talk about if you people had believed me all along."
And less ad views too no doubt as a result.

[Tim Wilson] "But I think you're right that we should increase ad rates in this forum."

At the very least we should get discounts on our annual COW membership dues. ;)



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Don Scioli
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:00:31 am

My dream came true....I told everyone...Steve didn't disappoint.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:02:04 am

Srsly tho-

K5BPLUS,ULTIMATE,BTR-USA ?

Wacky.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:31:59 am

Oh, and it's been 1,000 days since iPod Classic has been updated.

Apple cares not for consumers.

Discuss.


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Tim O'Grady
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:20:03 am

The folks at Apple must be grinning from ear to ear at how all this speculation about the Mac Pro has created so much interest and attention around their lowest selling product. Right before their biggest conference, no less.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:33:45 am

Kinda like how a lot of video gear manufacturers announce their yearly innovations right before NAB.

Some sort of weird conspiracy's afoot I tell ya...


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Bill Davis
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:27:23 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Kinda like how a lot of video gear manufacturers announce their yearly innovations right before NAB.

Some sort of weird conspiracy's afoot I tell ya..."


I wonder if the marketing folks at Apple see themselves more like train conductors trying to keep to schedules and release info at pre-determined moments of maximum impact (station stops) - or whether they see themselves as downhill skiers - they know where they want to go and the general route they need to negotiate to get there - but mindful of the fact that along the route, there will be all sorts of unexpected twists and turns and obstacles that have to be skied around.

A leak or a stolen prototype can easily derail their best laid routes. So it's no wonder Tim Cook just publicly noted that Apple is "doubling down" on corporate security.

If nothing else, this reputation probably keeps the SEC off their backs - since nobody can accuse Apple of spending much time trying to pre-leak advances in order to manipulate the market!

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:27:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Oh, and it's been 1,000 days since iPod Classic has been updated. Apple cares not for consumers. "

They specifically don't care for me since apparently I'm the last person alive who wants the ipod strictly for music and with an SSD. After waiting for a year for an Ipod classic update I had to pop for a new one just a week ago. This obviously means either an Ipod update or an EOL. Where have I heard that story before.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Kevin Patrick
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:36:31 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I'm the last person alive who wants the ipod strictly for music and with an SSD"

Me too. Just music, lots of it and without using a mechanical, temp sensitive HDD.

I had a Nano in my car, which I dropped on my lawn so I could water it.

I replaced it with a Touch, so I could get more storage. The other day the Touch (in my car's glove box) gave me an overheat warning. Which I'd never seen, even on the Nano. It stayed in the too hot state for a long time. I wonder why the Nano never had an issue, but the Touch did. Is it really just the larger display? Or did the Nano not have a temp sensor and just played?


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:45:19 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "Me too. Just music, lots of it and without using a mechanical, temp sensitive HDD. "

How about a 64 gig SSD Classic IPod at a reasonable price. It's not just Apple, nobody makes anything like this for MP3 either.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Kevin Patrick
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:19:17 pm

[Herb Sevush] "How about a 64 gig SSD Classic IPod at a reasonable price"

That should easily fit in the Nano, not sure I need the Classic form factor. I wonder if Apple's concerned people would buy more Nanos if they were higher capacity. Less long term revenue from a Nano (which doesn't run apps) as opposed to a Touch.

But, since I have an iPhone (or an Android for that matter), I don't need a Touch. I want a high capacity Nano.

Perhaps if we both sent Apple some feedback ...


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:39:31 pm

[Craig Seeman] "At the very least we should get discounts on our annual COW membership dues. ;)"

You're right.

It's a free forum from now on!








Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Chris Conlee
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:47:43 am

I'm betting that Apple did indeed plan on killing off the Mac Pro, but after the public relations shellacking they took over FCP X they reconsidered... Maybe they'll now double down on the "pro" market to try and redeem themselves?


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tony west
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:03:02 am

Looks like my source was right.

I'm not that surprised she was.

Seems like if you are an independent dealer of Macs you should have some contacts to give you a hint to what's up.


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:13:56 am

[tony west] "Seems like if you are an independent dealer of Macs you should have some contacts to give you a hint to what's up."

That would run counter to the "double down on secrecy" idea, though...

Sidebar -- let's say there's some new Mac Pro sizzle core action days away from release. Who here will place an order immediately? Who here used to buy Mac Pros, but will now stick with iMacs or MBPs instead?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:54:21 am

I'm finishing all the work I need to finish right now on my current MBP and my older Tower.

So I have the luxury of waiting.

If after the first few months, the early adopters are saying that any new hardware provides a significant production efficiency boost, then I'll upgrade.

But I'm not stuck behind any unmet needs right now - so there's not a need to jump ahead in my particular corner of the production world at this point.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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tony west
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:05:17 am

[Walter Soyka] "That would run counter to the "double down on secrecy" idea, though..."

I don't know if it would if she got it from a supplier rather than Apple.

She doesn't work for apple.

I don't really know who she got it from.

Her information was right though.


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Gary Huff
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:15:11 am

[tony west] "Her information was right though."

If the information we're hearing is right. Lots of bad info about the iPad right before release too.


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:08:11 am

[tony west] "Her information was right though."

And this brings it right back to the heart of the issue for me.

In the absence of a proper announcement from Apple (like all the other workstation vendors have given), we're relying on often-contradictory hushed whispers and sly winks from secret sources to sort out whether Apple will or will not provide another generation of workstation-class machines.

This is insane.

What other company can put its customers on a roller coaster ride like this and still inspire such loyalty?

At this point, I don't think it matters all that much to me whether Apple rolls out new Mac Pros or EOLs the line. The fact there was so much room for speculation has spooked me.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Robert Brown
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:44:08 am

[Walter Soyka] "At this point, I don't think it matters all that much to me whether Apple rolls out new Mac Pros or EOLs the line. The fact there was so much room for speculation has spooked me."

At this point, and everybody knows it, Apple just doesn't need this market anymore. It seems weird to do business with a company in a situation like that. It's almost like they're doing this for charity or something. I've still got a couple of years on my 12 core and who knows what will be available when I need to start looking again. I'm liking Apple less and less and they don't need my money anyway so I might as well look elsewhere when the time comes.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Jim Wiseman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:19:30 am

It's not just "the market". They need a pro machine in their line-up and they need pros to use it. What an embarrassment for them for pros to all move to Windows. And it will be profitable for them. And a great relief to me. Life is too short to screw around with Microsoft. Fool me once...

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Robert Brown
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:48:50 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Life is too short to screw around with Microsoft. Fool me once..."

I have a dual boot on my MacPro. Win 7 works fine I don't know why people hate it so bad. I do still prefer OSX for editing though.

But really at this point they don't need any of this. I'm not sure why they bother with FCP X. They could get out of regular computers and the cash would still rollin in.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Gary Huff
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 12:52:17 pm

[Robert Brown] "I have a dual boot on my MacPro. Win 7 works fine I don't know why people hate it so bad."

It's trendy to do so. Makes you part of the "in" crowd.


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tony west
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:39:59 pm

[Gary Huff] "It's trendy to do so. Makes you part of the "in" crowd.
"



Times have changed right Gary?
When I bought my Mac I was made fun of at the time by "computer" people.

Most everybody I knew had a PC

That was the whole point of the "Think Different" campaign. Because everybody else was thinking pc.

But I have never cared much what other people are doing.

It's mostly about what I want to do, and what's working for me.

Now that all these people have figured out what I already knew years ago, it's not about trends for me.

As LL would say " I been here for Years" : )


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Gary Huff
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:50:47 pm

[tony west] "When I bought my Mac I was made fun of at the time by "computer" people."

Did you buy your Mac to do editing/creative work on or to surf the web and tinker with?

Back in the day, it was generally understood that Macs were better for graphics/video (even though I couldn't afford one at that time and made do with Windows 98SE). I would assume that was just friends in your circle as opposed to those in the creative field.


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tony west
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:40:34 pm

[Gary Huff] "Did you buy your Mac to do editing/creative work on or to surf the web and tinker with?"


I bought it to do editing.

I knew the mac was better for that type of work. That's why I bought it for that.

But there were still folks who felt that a pc was better for that also.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:57:20 pm

[tony west] "As LL would say " I been here for Years" : )"

Don't call it a come back?

He also said, "Pink cookies in a plastic bag, getting crushed by buildings".

So, there's that...

;)


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tony west
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:42:39 pm

hahahaha

yes, there is that : )

good one J.G.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Aug 25, 2012 at 2:57:53 am

[tony west] "As LL would say " I been here for Years" : )"

Hey, Tony. Hope things are well.

Saw the following link today which reminded me of this thread.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/23/showbiz/ll-cool-j-burgar/index.html?on.cnn=2

Jeremy


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tony west
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Aug 25, 2012 at 12:56:02 pm

Hey there Jeremy, good to hear from you.

I saw that story and I thought............dang, dude is 4 years from 60 and still breaking into houses.

You see young folks lost trying to find their way, then someone like this who has wasted a lifetime. Sad

LL, no security needed.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Aug 26, 2012 at 4:34:30 am

[tony west] " saw that story and I thought............dang, dude is 4 years from 60 and still breaking into houses.

You see young folks lost trying to find their way, then someone like this who has wasted a lifetime. Sad"


No matter how much time passes, one is still lost if you were never given a bit of direction in the first place.


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tony west
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Aug 27, 2012 at 2:01:10 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "No matter how much time passes, one is still lost if you were never given a bit of direction in the first place."

Well said, that's why I show up to the schools and talk to kids about a career in TV or them following their dreams.


If I reach one child it's worth it : )


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Robert Brown
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:58:02 pm

[Gary Huff] "It's trendy to do so. Makes you part of the "in" crowd."

Uh well I didn't do it to be in. I have a couple of programs that will probably never be ported over to Mac and are to demanding to use in any of those Win for Mac programs. Also I found Nuke runs better in Win 7 then OSX. It seems to keep eating up all of the memory in OSX and bogs, but quite a bit better with the exact same projects on the same computer in WIn 7.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Sandeep Sajeev
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:04:12 pm

I have a Windows 7 Phone and an iPad and I prefer the UI on the Windows Phone 7. It's smooth, slick, visually stunning and the calendar doesn't have any strange leather graphics.

Windows has come a long way and that's not something I ever figured would happen, back in the day when I had a clamshell Macbook running OS9.


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Robert Brown
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:03:28 pm

[Sandeep Sajeev] "Windows has come a long way and that's not something I ever figured would happen, back in the day when I had a clamshell Macbook running OS9.
"


Exactly competition makes everybody better. I also found there are many little apps and tweaks you can do make Win 7 feel a lot more like what you're used to. I'm not trying to sell it I'm just saying I was pleasantly surprised when I installed 7 and even more so after I started to Google and then fix some of the things that bothered me.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 2:42:53 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Life is too short to screw around with Microsoft. Fool me once..."

How many times does Apple get to fool you? ;)

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jim Wiseman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 3:50:38 pm

Apple has never fooled me. I never used FCP as my primary editor even though it stole most of the market from Avid. I used Avid and then Media 100. Used FCP for the things only it could do, like run the AJA ioHD with Mac laptops for broadcast quality output and machine to mahine conversions with my Mac Pro/Kona. FCPX was a surprise, but it didn't fool me. Many here seem to really like it. Apple has always pioneered new ways of doing things. I never thought Apple would abandon the Mac Pro, and it appears they haven't. The Xeon's they appear to be using just hit the market, after all.

As an Apple video VAR for ten years, and the exclusive Avid dealer (and one of two Media 100 dealers) here in Hawaii for many years, I've installed over 200 of the highest end Macs up through the Mac Pro era, including my own, as I now do production work exclusively. The ten Windows systems from what was a high end manufacturer (Intergraph, now gone) that I installed for customers with a PC based editing system I sold later gave me more trouble than all of the Macs combined.

Apple has always surprised, not "fooled". Just look at the history of introductions that people thought were crazy that Apple pioneered that were eventually copied (inelegantly, in my opinion) on Windows systems. Including the concept of "windows" themselves. Let alone the hardware innovations. I won't bother to list them, starting with dropping the floppy drive. This Mac Pro craziness has more to do with the nervousness engendered by FCPX than it does the Mac Pro release schedule.

Maybe Windows has improved, it must have, but I am more than happy with the performance of my 2010 Mac Pro, and the software/OS I run on it. I will upgrade to the new one when my warranty (with on site service) runs out. Windows did "fool me once" and I don't intend to try it again. It cost me time and real money. The reliability of the Mac and it's operating system, with, for me, more than adequate performance and continued Mac Pros backed up by the best portables, Macbook Pros, both with Thunderbolt expansion will, save me the time and headaches I used to spend "fooling" with Windows.

To each his own.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 4:08:32 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Apple has always surprised, not "fooled"."

Jim, as a long-time Apple user and advocate myself, I intended my remark to be lighthearted -- but you make a very interesting point here.

I think that surprises can make fools of us. Ask anyone with a substantial investment in FCP Legend or FCSvr.

Dropping the floppy drive, switching to Intel -- some surprises are good. EOLing a product that has gained dominance over an industry without offering a smooth transition to its successor -- some surprises are bad.


[Jim Wiseman] "To each his own."

Agree 100%. I'm really not trying to push Windows on anyone. Macs are better fits for some people.

I'm just trying to point out that Windows is a viable alternative in a way that I don't think it was in years past, and that many of the old objections that Mac users had to Windows are no longer relevant. That certainly doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone, and as we are all big boys and girls, we are all capable of making the best decisions for our specific needs. As you said, to each his own.

Cheers,

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jim Wiseman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 4:12:29 pm

I agree with your point about the transition to FCPX. It could and should have been done better.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Craig Seeman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 4:04:06 pm

[Walter Soyka] "How many times does Apple get to fool you? ;)"

Apple has never fooled me with hardware beyond that they can change things with little advance notice The machines themselves generally tend to be well designed and reliable and, when pushed, will replace things that are faulty.



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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:17:31 am

[Walter Soyka] "And this brings it right back to the heart of the issue for me.

In the absence of a proper announcement from Apple (like all the other workstation vendors have given), we're relying on often-contradictory hushed whispers and sly winks from secret sources to sort out whether Apple will or will not provide another generation of workstation-class machines.

This is insane.

What other company can put its customers on a roller coaster ride like this and still inspire such loyalty?

At this point, I don't think it matters all that much to me whether Apple rolls out new Mac Pros or EOLs the line. The fact there was so much room for speculation has spooked me.
"


Perhaps we shouldn't listen to speculation, it seems none of it was based on fact. In reality Apple never discontinued the line and they are probably about to announce a new model in a reasonable amount of time after the required processors became available.

Nothing has changed, Apple have never given roadmaps on hardware, yet vast amounts of people including many on here still use their kit. The ONLY thing they have done differently is EOL FCP classic and re-imagine their editing software and it's this that has lead to all the "sky is falling" speculation.

If people want roadmaps then they shouldn't be on Macs in the first place

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Dan Stewart
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:04:26 pm

So why let autodesk etc humiliate themselves with all those lovely posters of smoke & co running on an iMac? I literally haven't seen any promotional shots of any 2012 mac software that isn't sheepishly running on an iMac or a mbp..
This theory of the quiet U turn makes sense to me, also it's more entertaining than the alternative..



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Andrew Richards
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:35:36 pm

[Steve Connor] "Nothing has changed, Apple have never given roadmaps on hardware, yet vast amounts of people including many on here still use their kit. The ONLY thing they have done differently is EOL FCP classic and re-imagine their editing software and it's this that has lead to all the "sky is falling" speculation."

You know who else doesn't publish roadmaps? Everyone. HP's and Dell's paper launch of their E5 towers in the past couple months is not a roadmap. People complain about Apple not laying out some multi-year plan, but where is everyone else's? Intel is where we get PC roadmaps, and that info is as useful for predicting Mac guts as it is for predicting anyone else's.

The difference with Apple is that we all see their financials and we see they don't live and die by the Mac anymore. The other guys, they don't have massive post-PC businesses to overshadow their PCs and servers, so the armchair CEOs of the Internet just figure they'll keep doing what they've been doing to make (far less) money.

[Steve Connor] "If people want roadmaps then they shouldn't be on Macs in the first place"

Please, anyone, please post the roadmaps from any of Apple's competitors. Over-eager marketers paper-launching the next rev of their products by a month or two is not a roadmap.

Best,
Andy


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 8:29:49 pm

[Andrew Richards] "You know who else doesn't publish roadmaps? Everyone. "

That's just not true. Microsoft and HP are among MANY companies who do. We've had a couple of threads about this, but here's a summary of one of them.

At Microsoft's equivalent of the WWDC, they presented their plans of Windows 8 in 2009, complete with an overview of key technologies. Their roadmap included the news that Windows 8 would be shipping in 2012. They were widely mocked for this at the time, but whaddya know, Windows 8 in 2012 is looking pretty likely, and while there are more technologies than were announced, there aren't fewer.

Why? Because when you have a massive cloud of hardware partners, they need to know this kind of thing. They have a massive cloud of software partners who are making more than tiny apps that sit on phones.

Remarkably, MSFT also includes a roadmap for product EOLs, and it goes out years in advance. In fact it's separated into sales and support. (We'll stop selling it in year X, we'll stop supporting it in year Y.)

So this may not meet your standard for something different than "nobody," does Apple publish a 3 year OS roadmap? Is there a chart for EOL timelines? No? Well, at least one OS company does both.

HP publishes road maps all the time. Not for everything, but for plenty of lines, including, yes, EOL timelines. The e3000 server line's EOL was announced 5 years in advance (!!!), under the assumption that people are doing real business with these things and are going to need a smooth transition.

And this wasn't a massive product - MAXIMUM size of 146 gigs. I think most people reading this might have more than that. The idea is that you could pile up a bunch of 'em -- up to 20 of 'em for a total of 3TB. Again, I think quite a few of you have more than 3TB, but you certainly know that it's within reasonable financial reach.

The point is that the product wasn't a lot of money for HP, but it was important for a key class of customers.

Here's the amazing thing: the EOL was announced 5 years in advance, but they kept the product alive for NINE years because people liked it so much.

Sound familiar? No, it doesn't, because Apple doesn't keep products alive longer than planned based on popular demand.

Loads o'links here, including PowerPoint slides (woo-hoo!!):
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/28367

And a follow-up here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/28400

As I concluded that post, "I can come up with more examples of companies in other parts of the broadest meaning of "our industry" who are very open about their roadmaps, just as I can come up with companies whose lips are sealed tighter than a tomb. But HP and Microsoft seemed like good comparables to Apple's place in the ecosystem, and couldn't be more different in their approach."

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Andrew Richards
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:12:36 pm

[Tim Wilson] "HP publishes road maps all the time. Not for everything, but for plenty of lines, including, yes, EOL timelines. "

Can you point me to HP's Z series workstation roadmap? I couldn't find one googling.

[Tim Wilson] "That's just not true. Microsoft and HP are among MANY companies who do."

Sigh. Fine. Yes, MSFT also does roadmaps. They also don't make PCs, so I don't really think it is relevant to getting a roadmap for hardware (which I noted that Intel does), but I didn't equivocate enough in my post, and for that I apologize.

So let's try again.

Vis a vis hardware and specifically the classes of hardware Apple sells, none of their PC industry peers publishes a roadmap for future products or EOL. And you'll recall Apple did issue an EOL for the Xserve, though only by a few months.

[Tim Wilson] "Sound familiar? No, it doesn't, because Apple doesn't keep products alive longer than planned based on popular demand."

Apple has a long-standing policy regarding the support period for their products. Your example for HP is a non-commodity hardware platform dating back to the 70s that would have been used in big enterprise settings to support very old legacy software. Can you say the same about HP's modern x86 stuff? Particularly the Personal division stuff?

[Tim Wilson] "HP and Microsoft seemed like good comparables to Apple's place in the ecosystem, and couldn't be more different in their approach."

I agree they are necessarily very different in their approach and indeed are very different in their business model as well. Apple's secrecy sucks for businesses trying to use their products, build around their products, sell their products. I just tire of seeing Apple criticized on a curve. They deserve criticism for many things, but carrying on the same policy about discussing future products they have always had is low on my list.

Best,
Andy


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:54:42 pm

[Andrew Richards] "[Tim Wilson] "That's just not true. Microsoft and HP are among MANY companies who do."

Sigh. Fine. Yes, MSFT also does roadmaps. They also don't make PCs, so I don't really think it is relevant to getting a roadmap for hardware (which I noted that Intel does), but I didn't equivocate enough in my post, and for that I apologize.

So let's try again."


No, I don't think there is any need to try again. Microsoft might not make PCs, but PCs are made to their specifications, and their OS software is crafted in response to the observations and needs of the PC makers. Its a very useful and open relationship, and one that used to make me snicker at the hypocrisy of Apple's 1984 commercial.


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Andrew Richards
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:22:15 pm

[Tim Wilson] "HP publishes road maps all the time."

And in one rather high-profile case right now, it is causing them a bit of trouble. Oracle seems to think HP is lying to its customers about the future of their Itanium-bsed HP-UX servers.

http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2012/05/oracles-itanium-document-dro...

Best,
Andy


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:27:38 pm

[Andrew Richards] "Oracle seems to think HP is lying to its customers about the future of their Itanium-bsed HP-UX servers."

It seems like your trying to have it both ways. First you say HP doesn't have a roadmap, now you say they have one and it's causing them trouble. How can it be causing them trouble when they don't have one?

On the other hand, while the corporate lawyers might prefer the secrecy route, I've never liked dealing with companies run by lawyers. The fact that HP might have some trouble because they were intent on sharing information with their customers makes me want to be one of their customers too.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Richards
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:41:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "It seems like your trying to have it both ways. First you say HP doesn't have a roadmap, now you say they have one and it's causing them trouble."

I already apologized and narrowed my scope to the classes of products Apple deals in. Apple does not deal in large enterprise infrastructure, so when companies that do issue roadmaps for those business units, I don't consider that relevant to the discussion of Apple's practices for its products. If HP is publishing roadmaps for its PCs, that's different. I can't find anything like that in my searches though.

[Herb Sevush] "The fact that HP might have some trouble because they were intent on sharing information with their customers makes me want to be one of their customers too."

You want them to tell you they are going to continue building something even when they know they won't? That's the charge that Oracle is making and the reason Oracle is dropping support for HP-UX.

Best,
Andy


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Andrew Richards
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:48:25 pm

Last one, I swear.

[Tim Wilson] "At Microsoft's equivalent of the WWDC, they presented their plans of Windows 8 in 2009, complete with an overview of key technologies. Their roadmap included the news that Windows 8 would be shipping in 2012. They were widely mocked for this at the time, but whaddya know, Windows 8 in 2012 is looking pretty likely, and while there are more technologies than were announced, there aren't fewer."

They were mocked because prior to that they had a pretty terrible track record sticking to their roadmaps around that time. Remember Longhorn?

Best,
Andy


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 10:16:37 pm

[Andrew Richards] "They were mocked because prior to that they had a pretty terrible track record sticking to their roadmaps around that time. Remember Longhorn?"

That mocking echoes down the years. LOL

Just because you got a roadmap don't mean you don't get lost.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 4:19:42 pm

[Andrew Richards] "Please, anyone, please post the roadmaps from any of Apple's competitors. Over-eager marketers paper-launching the next rev of their products by a month or two is not a roadmap."

You're right. Intel publishes the Xeon roadmap, and all the workstation vendors are more or less dependent on that.

What people want isn't a roadmap per se; they just want to know that Apple will continue to make workstations, because Apple is the only company making workstations that has any reason at all to stop.

The biggest difference that I see is that on the PC side, there's a functioning free market.

No individual vendor matters. If HP stopped making workstations tomorrow (which they will not, because they make too much money at it), I could buy a ProMax, or a BOXX, or an ADK, or a Dell, or a Lenovo -- or I could orer the parts and piece one together myself.

Intel doesn't matter. If they decided to stop making server CPUs tomorrow (which they will not, because they make too much money at it), AMD would do a jig and ramp up production.

Even Microsoft doesn't matter. When they tried to end Windows XP support, the market went berserk and actually forced them to extend it. If Windows 8 is an unmitigated disaster and Microsoft pulled an Apple and ended Windows 7 support, the entire free world would begin transitioning to Linux.

The point is this: on the PC side, I know that as long as someone who has money wants a workstation, someone who wants to make some money will build one and sell it to them. Apple thinks different.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 4:31:46 pm

[Walter Soyka] "What people want isn't a roadmap per se; they just want to know that Apple will continue to make workstations, because Apple is the only company making workstations that has any reason at all to stop."

I think Apple faces an issue as a design innovator that PC manufacturers don't. Apple may not be continuing the MacPro, They may be replacing it with a new design. Apple marketing may not want to call it a workstation. This does not mean Apple currently handles this well. but they may face issues when revealing anything about the future.

If, for example, gave a striped bare statement like, "we will continue using Xeon processors" there would be a firestorm of speculation because they didn't use the name "MacPro" or the word "workstation."

Generally PC manufacturers don't face this. Some might even argue much of the design innovation comes from following Apple products.

Of course if Apple were simply to be updating the MacPro with minor changes they tend to just do so without any announcement at all. As to what is minor and major may well be interpreted by Apple's marketing decisions. Lightpeak, now called Thunderbolt, seems to have been broadcast well in advance. On the other hand there's been nothing official about USB3 support although many of us expect it.

Either way, Apple is not likely to announce major new designs nor are they likely to update minor feature changes.

Again I'm not saying this is the "right" or "best" way to handle it. It's just that Apple decides to announce or not announce things for business reasons that don't exist to the same extent on the PC side.



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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 4:47:05 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think Apple faces an issue as a design innovator that PC manufacturers don't."

Apple has not innovated workstation design in a decade.


[Craig Seeman] "If, for example, gave a striped bare statement like, "we will continue using Xeon processors" there would be a firestorm of speculation because they didn't use the name "MacPro" or the word "workstation." "

There's a firestorm of speculation anyway. Apple likes it, because they believe secrecy sells.

Do you thinking sharing a little more information would be a bad thing? If they made that Xeon announcement, they could still have had their swirling, demand-creating rumors, but we could have had a little reassurance that the future wasn't all consumer class hardware, all the time.


[Craig Seeman] "Again I'm not saying this is the "right" or "best" way to handle it. It's just that Apple decides to announce or not announce things for business reasons that don't exist to the same extent on the PC side."

Apple chooses to treat the professional market the same way they treat the consumer market. That's their choice.

How we respond (both as a market making purchases and Internet heroes writing rants) is ours.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:53:34 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Apple has not innovated workstation design in a decade."

Which is why there's been no concern until now. With the advent of Thunderbolt people were anticipating some action on Apple's part whether EOL (and not doing so on their part should have meant something) or a new design. I think the article that Andrew links to in the new thread explains the challenges. Apple is not inclined to announce new products in advance especially if they involve new case designs. They also don't announce minor updates. The sum equals no announcements either way for what its worth. Each with different reasons though.

[Walter Soyka] "Do you thinking sharing a little more information would be a bad thing? If they made that Xeon announcement, they could still have had their swirling, demand-creating rumors, but we could have had a little reassurance that the future wasn't all consumer class hardware, all the time."

That would have been my preference. Perhaps they were concerned about eating further into the minuscule MacPro purchases with the delayed purchases that would have caused. I can see some arguing that, given the low sales, what's the concern.

[Walter Soyka] "Apple chooses to treat the professional market the same way they treat the consumer market. That's their choice."

I don't think they differentiate. That may well be a problem some see in their business model but in the "we just produce what we believe is the best product" vein, they have no separate consumer and professional business model. Of course some would say they should.

I don't see it as a problem personally and didn't see it as an issue many years back when I was part of a facility's decision making process. Maybe that's because I'm inclined not to trust any advanced announcements anyway. There's just too many holes in such announcements to really make long term decisions on, IMHO.

The only thing I can see a concern with is the sudden EOL of a product without any time to work out a transition plan as happened with FCP7. To assume that was going to happen with Xeon processor Macs is . . . well . . . an assumption.

Apple's handling of the MacPro turns out to be no different than what they've done in the past.



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Jim Wiseman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 4:45:52 pm

Could not agree with you more that the only roadmap is Intel. Paper releases don't really count from PC manufacturers.

I was with you until the last two paragraphs. Not likely Microsoft will drop Windows 7 support soon. Eventually, maybe. But comparing the entire ecosystem of the OS to with what Apple did with an application, FCP 7, is a bit of a stretch. On the hardware side, the previous CEO of HP was going to drop PC's altogether because of the low profit margin. Have to believe he was talking about workstations too, as the synergy to continue them without the enterprise/consumer PC's would not be there. Now he is gone, but there must have been some reason for him to adopt that strategy. Linux for the average person, even fairly technically oriented, is an unlikely alternative.

I really don't think Apple thinks different about the Mac Pro. They may have thought about dropping it for a moment (there are bean counters in every corporation) thus the pro community's paranoia. Continuing it just makes too much sense. It doesn't lose money, it makes it. They need a high end box for developers, pros that talk up the Mac (like us), and for their own use. I don't think it is going away.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:04:13 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "On the hardware side, the previous CEO of HP was going to drop PC's altogether because of the low profit margin. Have to believe he was talking about workstations too, as the synergy to continue them without the enterprise/consumer PC's would not be there. Now he is gone, but there must have been some reason for him to adopt that strategy."

HP fired Apotheker. His curiosity about spinning off the PC division showed HP wanting to follow in IBM's footsteps, dropping hardware to focus on services.

That was a deeply flawed strategy. HP's PC business is really, really significant -- a third of HP's revenue. It's a $40 billion business. It would be a Fortune 50 (that's fifty, not a typo for 500) company all on its own.

Spinning the business off would probably have been suicidal for HP, which is why Apotheker was ousted and Whitman reversed the decision. When the spinoff discussions started, HP sales slowed, because customers were worried. HP ultimately listened to their customers and kept the unit.

That said, the HP PC division may well have thrived on its own. Again, look at IBM: Lenovo continues the Thinkpad tradition, building some of the best and most reliable laptops in the world, and they ship huge volume for it.


[Jim Wiseman] "Not likely Microsoft will drop Windows 7 support soon."

Agreed -- I was throwing out a hypothetical. Microsoft will almost certainly continue Windows 7 support through Windows 8 and into Windows 9. Supporting their customers is part of Microsoft's value proposition.


[Jim Wiseman] "Linux for the average person, even fairly technically oriented, is an unlikely alternative."

Another pure hypothetical, but why not? It's not all command-line rocket science anymore. Straight-up Linux distros aside (though even they could be installed and run by non-geeks), Android is based on Linux, as is Chrome OS, and both systems are specifically built for non-geeks.


[Jim Wiseman] "I don't think it is going away."

I agree, but I don't think it will be like the good ol' days. I don't think Apple will be expending the same effort on the professional segment that they did in say the late 90s or early 2000s, when their existence literally depended on it.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jim Wiseman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:15:21 pm

"That was a deeply flawed strategy. HP's PC business is really, really significant -- a third of HP's revenue. It's a $40 billion business. It would be a Fortune 50 (that's fifty, not a typo for 500) company all on its own."

But revenue doesn't necessarily correlate with profit. Apotheker thought PC's were not generating enough to hold on to. But now he is gone. Apple has the profit side going strong. Why? People really want their products and OSX.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:38:16 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "But revenue doesn't necessarily correlate with profit. Apotheker thought PC's were not generating enough to hold on to. But now he is gone."

Current management disagrees.

You are making an argument for why Apple might have ditched the Mac Pro. Profitable, but too small to be worthwhile -- both in revenue and profit.


[Jim Wiseman] "Apple has the profit side going strong. Why? People really want their products and OSX."

And where is that profit coming from? Not the computer we're talking about in this thread...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jim Wiseman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 6:01:44 pm

"And where is that profit coming from? Not the computer we're talking about in this thread..."

See my previous post. The Mac Pro is making a profit and has all the reasons I listed to remain viable. The fact that they are VERY profitable in the consumer to mid range market means they can easily afford to maintain a Pro presence that makes money on it's own. i.e., Apple will be around for quite a while, and in my opinion will still make a Pro machine(s).

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1,Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1, Premiere Pro 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Avid MC, Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 8Gb SSD, G5 Quadcore PCIe


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:12:28 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Apple thinks different."

Especially in the U.S. There was a fellow that posted here a while ago in which Apple was forced to license their OS to third party machines, I think it was in Germany.

Really, what we are talking about here, is an OS. Hardware certainly plays a role, but it does boil down to the OS, especially with cross platform applications. I know "once you're in the app, it's all the same..." well, awesome, but I do spend time in the Finder, I do not mind the AppStore at all as long as I am around the internet, I do not mind the cloning system (big for me), I do not mind the Terminal and disaster recovery of a Mac, I do not mind the ecosystem. It helps me support a business easier and with less stress in an already stressful environment. Perhaps that's changing from the Windows side of things, I don't know.

We have one dedicated Windows machine here, and now a bootcamped windows 7 MBP. Installing Windows was one of the most frustrating things I have done with an OS in a long time. Bootcamp (of course) was really easy, the rest was terrible. Many many downloading of updates that I have no idea if they are legit or not. The documentation, or instructions are very sparse. Managing DLLs seems like a kludge, reporting (crash reports) aren't as helpful, and the whole system seems to go down when a crash happens, unlike the Mac where a program might go down. These are real considerations for me. So far, in my experience with Windows, it does not win for me. Sure, I'd figure out a way to manage all of that minutiae, but for now, I'll stick with OSX. Windows has come a long way, it always has been a completely viable OS. This is true. But it's just not something that I personally prefer. The developers I talk to seem to think that MacOS is a "superior" OS. It also makes their jobs easier. We all rely on developers whether we want to admit it or not.

Also, I think it has been proven, that the paranoia created by the EOL of some popular Apple applications should really be looked at separately from their hardware business. As far as hardware, there was zero indication from Apple themselves that they were going to EOL the MacPro. When they do truly EOL professional hardware, they make whitepapers, present exit strategies, and offer alternatives, although admittedly they might not be viable alternatives.

All of these decisions are huge and giant business decisions. Microsoft, it seems, is making a business decision with Windows 8. So is Apple with FCPX, and all of the OS changes that have been happening and will continue in the future. You don't have to like them, and it might make you paranoid for one reason or another, that's fine. There's plenty of choices including a vast open source network if that is really your cup of tea, but none of these technology companies are standing still. Just as we are forced to adapt, so are they. It is all changing whether we like it or not.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:34:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We have one dedicated Windows machine here, and now a bootcamped windows 7 MBP. Installing Windows was one of the most frustrating things I have done with an OS in a long time. Bootcamp (of course) was really easy, the rest was terrible. Many many downloading of updates that I have no idea if they are legit or not. The documentation, or instructions are very sparse. Managing DLLs seems like a kludge, reporting (crash reports) aren't as helpful, and the whole system seems to go down when a crash happens, unlike the Mac where a program might go down."

If you weren't rolling your own Windows machine on a BootCamp system, you could have called your vendor for support and gotten a fix or a replacement.

While I respect your experience, I don't think it's typical. I've installed Windows on 5 Macs via BootCamp without sketchy downloads or managing DLLs. It just worked.

I've also had hardware and software nightmares on PowerMac G3s, PowerMac G4s, PowerMac G5s, and Mac Pros. I've had other systems per the above that worked beautifully.

Computers are complicated, and both Macs and PCs are liable to experience issues that will cost you serious hair.

Heck, my iPad randomly rebooted on me yesterday, and sometimes I can't open any applications on it unless I go the app store, download an update or new app, and try again.


[Jeremy Garchow] "The developers I talk to seem to think that MacOS is a "superior" OS. It also makes their jobs easier. We all rely on developers whether we want to admit it or not."

And I've talked to developers (admittedly in my little niche) who struggle developing for OS X, because it's a moving target.

You'd think that writing a media server on a Mac would be a no brainer, but media server developers almost universally prefer Windows because the graphics support is both better and broader, because the APIs are more stable, requiring less internal reworking and freeing up developer time to focus on new features, and because they feel less paranoid that a freaking iTunes update will break their application.

Others also prefer that they can turn their apps into appliances with bundled hardware and an embedded OS, but that's probably too niche for our conversation here.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Microsoft, it seems, is making a business decision with Windows 8."

I agree, but I also think the impact to everyday desktop/workstation users is being way overstated. It's like if (when?) Apple makes Launchpad the default interface on Macs instead of Finder.


[Jeremy Garchow] "There's plenty of choices including a vast open source network if that is really your cup of tea, but none of these technology companies are standing still. Just as we are forced to adapt, so are they. It is all changing whether we like it or not."

Totally agreed. Volatility is up, up, up -- which is part of my argument as to why it's better to be cross-platform if you can. You get all the benefits of both platforms, and you can use that to minimize the risks on either one.

Again, not the right choice for everyone -- and I do believe you when you say it's not the right choice for you -- but it has absolutely been the right choice for me, and I think it's worth it for others in our situations to consider.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 7:36:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "If you weren't rolling your own Windows machine on a BootCamp system, you could have called your vendor for support and gotten a fix or a replacement. "

For an OS install? Yeeps.

Our dedicated Windows box does have support, thankfully. It's a much more important and therefore more complex machine.

[Walter Soyka] "I agree, but I also think the impact to everyday desktop/workstation users is being way overstated. It's like if (when?) Apple makes Launchpad the default interface on Macs instead of Finder."

Overstated? Interesting. So when MSoft makes a big decision about the future and it's effect on users isn't crystal clear, it's overstated, but when Apple has said nothing but "we care about Pro video users", obviously has been waiting on intel, kept the channel open, decidedly NOT killed the current MacPro, it's a trap door.

I totally understand the hesitation against Apple, I don't understand the rhetoric.

I have no idea what what Apple is going to announce next week, but the procs seem ready, the OS rewrites seem to be gaining steam, Nvidia seems to be working with Apple in some capacity, I am just glad we will be able to deal with real live facts after next week.

I do not care who's right or wrong, I just can't wait to finally start moving forward, with facts.

I have no idea what it takes to write a "media server" or what context is used in, but as far as appliances, yeah, aren't those probably based on some sort of Linux?

[Walter Soyka] "Again, not the right choice for everyone -- and I do believe you when you say it's not the right choice for you -- but it has absolutely been the right choice for me, and I think it's worth it for others in our situations to consider."

I think plenty are, or there's many that are already cross platform if you look around this forum. It's not that big of a deal to some, especially if FCPX is the wrong choice.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 7:41:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I do not care who's right or wrong, I just can't wait to finally start moving forward, with facts."

Great Googly Moogly, ain't that the truth.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 8:46:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have no idea what it takes to write a "media server" or what context is used in, but as far as appliances, yeah, aren't those probably based on some sort of Linux?"

A media server is a specialized computer for playing back video, sound and images. They often allow multiple layers, blend modes, live effects, and multiple channels. They're also usually controllable via Ethernet or DMX systems so they can be integrated with the lighting systems for concerts, theatre, and live events.

All stuff I would have thought would be a slam dunk on a Mac. I actually considered suspending my content creation business to develop one last year, but ultimately decided it was too ambitious for me.


[Jeremy Garchow] "So when MSoft makes a big decision about the future and it's effect on users isn't crystal clear, it's overstated, but when Apple has said nothing but "we care about Pro video users", obviously has been waiting on intel, kept the channel open, decidedly NOT killed the current MacPro, it's a trap door."

Ignore the headlines, and look objectively at what Microsoft is doing with Windows 8: they're adding Metro, which will let you run the exact same apps on your PC as you can on your tablet or phone, and they've changing the start button's behavior. What they aren't doing is breaking compatibility with Windows 7 or leaving all their customers without any kind of migration pathway.

People are talking about Metro like it's the end of Windows, when it's just adding another option for interacting with your computer. Windows 8 will offer new features, but be only superficially different than Windows 7 for many users. If you can switch from FCP Legend to FCPX, I'm pretty sure you can move from the Start menu (which I'm not sure anyone really uses anyway) to Metro.

Is my rhetoric overblown? I guess that depends on how dependent you are on Apple. My point is that many of us don't realize how dependent we are. You have to trust somebody eventually, and Apple's actions have set the stage for all the conversation about their trustworthiness. They make their own FUD -- it's just bizarre.

Apple pulled the rug out from under the industry last year, and we're all still dealing with the aftermath. They can do it again, at any time and for any reason, because they are not accountable to the industry they're serving.

Of course I agree that it's not going to kill you if they do. There's a lot changing, and we can all change our tools if we have to. Work on Macs or HPs or whatever today, and if those solutions are no longer available tomorrow, switch to the next best thing then. Perfectly valid point of view.

I just think any business should take Apple's single-vendor-serving-an-ancillary-market status into consideration when making purchases. They can serve their own self-interest very well without us, and this is not true of every competitor in the space. It doesn't mean this should drive the decision for everyone, but why not include it in the decision making?

A few years ago, I spoke in words as hard as cannonballs advocating for Apple. A lot of my Apple advocacy was getting Windows users to see beyond their innane anti-Mac prejudices. I fundamentally believe we are all capable of making our own decisions, but I think we all need good information to do it.

My rants here aside, I'm really not anti-Apple, but I feel like the pro-Apple position is the default for most of us, and it's well spoken-for. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually even like a lot of FCPX, both in design and implementation, and I have recommended it twice in separate workflow consulting jobs in the last month.

My point of view on the industry now is that there are really excellent solutions on the Windows platform today -- but that they are all but invisible to a lot of Mac users here because of that scary four-paned logo.

Just like FCPX, Windows isn't the best choice for everyone -- but just like FCPX, I think it's a mistake not to consider it, because it just might work well for you.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 9:01:14 pm

Nicely done, Walter.

I hear your points.

I'm not scared of a single vendor. While there are advantages to having multiple OS computers, there are also disadvantages. I use what's right, and if it fails, it fails. We were spoiled with FCP Legend, it had a great run.

I'd be hosed if Ae ever went belly up not from finding a "replacement" application, but from a legacy perspective.

As far as media servers, yeah, not sure why a Mac one wouldn't be compatible, my guess would probably be Quicktime holds it back. Systems like watchout do benefit from Windows speed, no question. But, there are things like ToolsOnAir that seem to be running just fine on mac minis.


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Andrew Richards
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:24:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The point is this: on the PC side, I know that as long as someone who has money wants a workstation, someone who wants to make some money will build one and sell it to them. Apple thinks different."

Yeah, that was my point- We the Internet all assume Apple will get bored and take its ball and go home, while everyone else would take a real hit from dropping products they sell thousands of. They killed the Xserve because of low sales, so now any Mac that doesn't sell in seven figure quantities is a FUD magnet.

I'm really looking forward to finding out what has really been going on inside One Infinite Loop come Monday.

Best,
Andy


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:49:52 pm

[Andrew Richards] "Yeah, that was my point- We the Internet all assume Apple will get bored and take its ball and go home, while everyone else would take a real hit from dropping products they sell thousands of. They killed the Xserve because of low sales, so now any Mac that doesn't sell in seven figure quantities is a FUD magnet."

Apple makes already volatile markets more volatile still. It's fun as long as the surprises are all good. For me, it's not just a question of whether Apple will or will not drop big Macs and MBPs-- it's the fact that they can, any time that they want. Building a business on Apple today feels like standing on a trap door.

It would literally kill some other vendors to stop selling sizzle core beast computers, so you can be pretty sure they'll continue out of their own self interest.

Adam Smith would buy an iPad, but he'd also buy a PC.


[Andrew Richards] "I'm really looking forward to finding out what has really been going on inside One Infinite Loop come Monday."

Absolutely!

I'm really not anti-Apple, and I wouldn't even go so far to suggest they don't intend to continue support professionals. I do think it's clear that they'd don't fully understand or deeply care about their needs, though, and I'm frankly a bit surprised at the resistance here to the idea of hedging the bet.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 9, 2012 at 1:41:53 am

[Walter Soyka] "and I'm frankly a bit surprised at the resistance here to the idea of hedging the bet."

I've always thought that it was because of the isolation. Historically, Apple folk always had separate stores, conventions and magazines (Remember when magazines mattered?) and there was just really no sense of what was going on on the other side of the partition. I remember when the the Superdrive was introduced, and all my Mac friends were really hyped on it. I kept trying to figure out what was so super until I realized that there wasn't anything, that it was just a dual layer drive, and that Apple was finally introducing them--far later than everyone else--to their hardware. I'd had a couple in various machines for at least a year, but the isolation was so complete that they all thought they were getting stunning new--and very super--hardware.

The Internet has broken down a lot of this isolation, but the ghost of it is still around for many--that vague feeling that Windows is another continent, across a wide ocean.


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TImothy Auld
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 9, 2012 at 5:04:57 am

[Walter Soyka] "a bit surprised at the resistance here to the idea of hedging the bet."

I don't know how you survive in this business without hedging your bets.

Tim


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 9, 2012 at 5:48:18 am

[TImothy Auld] "[Walter Soyka] "a bit surprised at the resistance here to the idea of hedging the bet."

I don't know how you survive in this business without hedging your bets.

Tim"


Word, that.


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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 4:36:47 pm

[Steve Connor] "The ONLY thing they have done differently is EOL FCP classic and re-imagine their editing software and it's this that has lead to all the "sky is falling" speculation."

Steve, I respectfully disagree.

In my article FCPX and the Domino Effect [link], I laid out the series of things Apple has done to make me nervous.

It's not just EOLing FCP Legend (and thank you for this phrase, Jeremy -- I love it!). It's their inconstancy and their shifting priorities.

They got into Shake, then got out of it. They got into Final Touch/Color, then got out of it. They got into Artbox/FCSvr, then got out of it. FCP Legend's development stagnated over the last couple versions, and it fell woefully behind the competition in some key areas.

Apple has a horrible on-again, off-again relationship with NVIDIA, and it's costing them in GPU computation. They got into storage and servers, then realized they weren't good at it and it wasn't where they wanted to be, so they left.

They have been nattering on about the post-PC world and raking in tons of cash on tablets. The apple.com/pro site has been a ghost town for almost three years. Thunderbolt was introduced well over a year ago now, and has been available on every computer Apple sells except the Mac Pro.

For me, the poor handling of the FCP/FCPX transition (far more than FCPX itself, which I have said from the beginning shows a lot of promise) was the straw that broke the camel's back. In my opinion, the questions swirling around the fate of the Mac Pro are not all derived from Legend's EOL, but rather from the sum of Apple's actions over the last 4 years or so.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 5:00:29 pm

Walter, I think we've seen some key differences between much of what you mention on some recent circumstances.

Apple has always announced EOL and sometimes with very long periods to the final cessation of support.
FCP7 was pulled suddenly.

The MacPro with the user base's nervousness, had a longer interval than usual in this recent cycle although others have pointed out there were some fairly long cycles previously. There's a very good chance that the external case design change may well be the most radical since. . . the case was introduced June 2003 I believe. When was the last time Apple kept a design, with only minor external changes, for so long?

Yet, without an announced EOL, as they did for all the other products EOLd if memory serves me, led some of us to believe that one way or another, something was coming. Personally I'd think only those gun shy from the sudden end to FCP7 were thinking that that history would repeat with the MacPro IMHO.



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Daniel Frome
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 11:17:28 am

I just sold my mac pro last night. Ever since buying my i7 macbook pro I rarely used it, as mobility always trumped CPU power in the last 2 years of my job. I suppose I am glad that I sold it just before this new model was released and cheapened my resale value.

But, same as you -- I will wait and perhaps never buy another mac pro again. If I ever need workstation class power at home I think I will be a PC.


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Gary Huff
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:53:04 pm

[Daniel Frome] "Ever since buying my i7 macbook pro I rarely used it, as mobility always trumped CPU power in the last 2 years of my job."

Having the i7 Quad Core 17" MacBook Pro is great for DIT work (ExpressCard is handy here, but that Belkin dock will be great to have come this fall) and it's beefy enough to easily do all my editing tasks on the road. Even then, however, I still like to sit at my desk and work when I'm home. 24" trumps 17" every time, and I just like the feel of sitting down to a typical desktop to work. Right now I have a Windows PC that has performed excellently for me, but as I work more and more in FCP7 for work, I find I'd like to not have to dig out my laptop when I get home to open projects.


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Daniel Frome
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:06:06 pm

[Gary Huff] " 24" trumps 17" every time"

Agreed. I didn't mention my 24" monitor that hooks into my laptop at home. I wouldn't want to spend all my time looking at the laptop screen either.


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:57:15 pm

[Walter Soyka] "This is insane.

What other company can put its customers on a roller coaster ride like this and still inspire such loyalty?
"



Yes, it is. If you'd asked me last Fall about buying a Mac Pro on release, the answer would have been yes. Now, I don't know. I certainly have a lot invested in the OS X platform, but I am tired of the roller coaster, and the only reason I came to the platform in the first place was FCP. Apple has always been a bit of a carney side show from my perspective, and now, since FCP X is only of marginal interest to me, I find the idea of reincorporating Windows an enticing one. Still, cross-platform work, though far easier now than it was a decade ago, has drawbacks. Avid, Adobe and Boris are making it at least possible to consider, however. Did you know that you can switch your Continuum License to Windows at no cost? I was quit relieved to find that out.

So, I'm interested in what might be released next week, and I might be in the market for it, depending on what it offers, but my allegiance to the Mac line of computers was EOLed not long after FCS3.


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Rick Lang
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:35:05 pm

One possible explanation for the long period between upgrades is that the chips Apple wanted to use in their next iteration were originally due early last fall but were delayed by Intel until very recently. If not for that delay I think you would have seen new Mac Pros no later than last October. I may be wrong but that's my guess.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Tim Kirby
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 10:43:52 am

Well I won't be buying one for a couple of years at least, not really bothered about it either - already happily migrated to Avid & Adobe on a stonking PC, have very high spec iMac for the dreaded FCP X, er, sorry, 'Ten'.

-----------------------------
Man cannot discover new oceans until he has the courage to lose sight of the shore.


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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 11:22:07 am

[Walter Soyka] "Sidebar -- let's say there's some new Mac Pro sizzle core action days away from release. Who here will place an order immediately? Who here used to buy Mac Pros, but will now stick with iMacs or MBPs instead?
"


I'll be buying one in a couple of months when all the bugs have been worked out!

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 12:58:39 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Sidebar -- let's say there's some new Mac Pro sizzle core action days away from release. Who here will place an order immediately? Who here used to buy Mac Pros, but will now stick with iMacs or MBPs instead"

It's rather dependent on specs, if Cuda is going to happen for real, if openCL is going to be further supported on beefier AMDs.

I, personally, am going to need the fastest mobile system I can get in the coming months. I am going to embrace Thunderbolt in a short time here, I think, so I imagine a laptop is in my future. If the new WWDC laptops prove weird, then I'll just get the fastest 17" available.

After the brief hiatus from the office, upon return, we'll have to huddle up and take a knee. We are still undecided on our post fcs3 future so there's really no fantastic reason to order on day zero, but we will have to soon to start the next phase.

There needs to be a function and reliability update to fcpx or two, Smoke will get a good testing, cs6 will work better with a new laptop and hopefully the new macs will allow better desktop performance by text hack or otherwise, but honestly the media management isn't where we need it be and it's a shame as I like cs6.

I don't need multiple GPUs and Raid cards, one of each is fine. I do need fibre channel though, and as of today the ATTO thunderbolt to fibre cards aren't here yet. I do believe there's a sanLINK one, but I'd rather stick with ATTO as they have proven themselves to me consistently over the years.

So right now, let's say if we went all iMacs (which I don't think we will, but if) it pretty much renders the SAN to a LAN. That's not as fun as fibre. :)

If the new MacPro's have legit PCIe, then it will just be a card swap. I am really hoping for a more rack friendly design, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

It will be interesting to see what actually is released and at that point, all of us can legitimately move on to what's next. Tim Wilson, I'd throw a few duckets in the Techniques forum, too. ;)

Jeremy


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Craig Seeman
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:47:20 pm

I'll be waiting for some real world tests relating to FCPX as well as encoding.
Since it seems Apple may be updating most of their line, I'd have to see what they do with the iMac as well.
I've never purchased an iMac before but I'd have to see price vs performance relative to my needs.



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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:43:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Who here will place an order immediately?"

If it meets the current definition of a workstation (64 G Ram, multiple 16 lane PCIe, CPU choices) I will buy one immediately.

On the other hand I'm still not convinced the refresh is happening. I was at the NYC Adobe road show yesterday. As part of the show HP had a rep showing off the Z1 and a new specially rigged out Z820 made for Red workflows and he was grinning from ear to there. He didn't say anything specific but he hinted that he expected a lot of interest in these products after June 10th. To support that Tekserve, the largest Mac pro video dealer in NY, is the company building and supporting the HP / Red workstation. As far as I know this is the first non Mac computer ever sold at Tekserve. I spoke to Matt Cohen of Tekserve for a bit and he didn't profess to have any inside knowledge about what's coming up, but the fact that he's looking to diversify says a lot. As an aside the HP/Red workstation was HOT!!!

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:01:06 pm

[Herb Sevush] "On the other hand I'm still not convinced the refresh is happening. I was at the NYC Adobe road show yesterday. As part of the show HP had a rep showing off the Z1 and a new specially rigged out Z820 made for Red workflows and he was grinning from ear to there. He didn't say anything specific but he hinted that he expected a lot of interest in these products after June 10th. To support that Tekserve, the largest Mac pro video dealer in NY, is the company building and supporting the HP / Red workstation. As far as I know this is the first non Mac computer ever sold at Tekserve. I spoke to Matt Cohen of Tekserve for a bit and he didn't profess to have any inside knowledge about what's coming up, but the fact that he's looking to diversify says a lot. As an aside the HP/Red workstation was HOT!!!"

To recap, an HP rep reps HP's latest and impressive gear and tells customers to get excited.

Tekserve is diversifying as the broader video market is diversifying.

Plus, I think you just outed the rat.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:04:34 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "To recap, an HP rep reps HP's latest and impressive gear and tells customers to get excited. "

He specifically mentioned June 10th as a time when he thought more customers would be interested in what he had to sell. Make of that what you will.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Plus, I think you just outed the rat."

I didn't out anyone, don't know what you're referring to, everything I heard was said in public in front of many people.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:24:41 pm

[Herb Sevush] "He specifically mentioned June 10th as a time when he thought more customers would be interested in what he had to sell. Make of that what you will."

I'll take a guess. Apple will release a MacPro or replacement at WWDC. Since all of a sudden multiple GPU computing is the buzz word, Apple's replacement might not support multiple GPUs if Apple remains true to their design as they have since the return of the g3 tower. Since he works for HP and HP can support a massive amount of PCIe hardware in one machine, he thinks that people will flock to the cool design and raw performance of the z820. In short, he believes in the product and is having some fun with it.

[Herb Sevush] "I didn't out anyone, don't know what you're referring to, everything I heard was said in public in front of many people."

Im sorry, Herb it was a joke. I forgot an emoticon. I was referring to this post that was also said in jest:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/35670

Cheers.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:38:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Since all of a sudden multiple GPU computing is the buzz word, Apple's replacement might not support multiple GPUs if Apple remains true to their design as they have since the return of the g3 tower"


"Configure your Mac Pro with high-performance PCI Express graphics cards from AMD. The ATI Radeon HD 5770 is up to 5x faster than the previous-generation standard graphics card. Or select the ATI Radeon HD 5870 for even more advanced graphics work. Configure your Mac Pro with two cards to power up to six displays simultaneously for visualization projects and large display walls."

From the Apple Store MacPro configurator.


Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:23:10 pm

[Herb Sevush] "From the Apple Store MacPro configurator.
"

Just because someone says you should jump, doesn't mean you should throw yourself off of the Sears Tower as fun as that feeling of flying might be.

Multiple GPUs broke FCS3.

CS6 Support certain configs, as does Resolve.

None of those are two ATI 5870s.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:32:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Just because someone says you should jump, doesn't mean you should throw yourself off of the Sears Tower as fun as that feeling of flying might be."

As far as I know the hack that allows PPro to work with unsupported OpenCL cards will allow it to utilize the double 5870s.

You stated that Apple doesn't support multiple GPUs, not that FCP couldn't utilize them. Their are 2 x 16 lane slots in the current MacPro. If Apple comes out with a refresh that doesn't have either multiple 16 lane slots or a built in GPU plus 1 additional 16 lane slot then that will be a clear step backward, not just business as usual.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:46:41 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As far as I know the hack that allows PPro to work with unsupported OpenCL cards will allow it to utilize the double 5870s."

Yeah, not really.

I don't have double, but I have single, and there's zero acceleration.

[Herb Sevush] "You stated that Apple doesn't support multiple GPUs, not that FCP couldn't utilize them. Their are 2 x 16 lane slots in the current MacPro."

As far as I know, there's nothing that I know of video wise that can utilize multiple AMD cards. Dual AMD GPUs gets you nothing in FCS3, FCPX, or CS6 currently. Can I stick two cards in there? Surely, but is it useful? No. Maybe to Aerospace and Medical, but me the video pleeb gets no love.

If you have a more modern MacPro, this means that if you have two 16x cards in there, you are left with two 4x slots. Hmm, maybe the new "MacPro" will have two 16x slots and two thunderbolt ports (they are 4x after all).

Older MacPros had one 16x slot, two 4x and a 1x, or really any combo of 25x across 4 slots with the max of 3 8x slots.

[Herb Sevush] "If Apple comes out with a refresh that doesn't have either multiple 16 lane slots or a built in GPU plus 1 additional 16 lane slot then that will be a clear step backward, not just business as usual."

Oh, you mean like removing a fw800 port or an express/34 card, and perhaps maybe adding a thunderbolt port to compensate? Or perhaps adding a sensor to an iMac that makes it much harder to add a second hard drive. Perhaps when everyone is doubling their PCIe capability and revving up for v3.0, Apple is releasing 4x v2 to the rest of their line.

We will see what they release, and my wager is that it's not going to compete with a z820 feature for feature. It's not Apple's game, but I don't want to start all this all again. It's all in the other thread I linked to.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:51:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Hmm, maybe the new "MacPro" will have two 16x slots and two thunderbolt ports (they are 4x after all)."

That's all I'm asking for. I'm not expecting them to compete with HP on card slots. But if they come out with GPU built into the motherboard and a bunch of Tbolt ports, then it's not a workstation, it's MacProX.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:08:57 pm

[Herb Sevush] "That's all I'm asking for. I'm not expecting them to compete with HP on card slots. But if they come out with GPU built into the motherboard and a bunch of Tbolt ports, then it's not a workstation, it's MacProX.
"


As we know that the prices are more or less the same as the existing models I'm not expecting a MacProX!

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:36:33 pm

[Steve Connor] "As we know that the prices are more or less the same as the existing models I'm not expecting a MacProX!"

What Apple doesn't off that other PC companies do, is i7 or i5 Tower configs (quad cores).

This means iMac power with PCIe slots in a traditional tower design.

When people say PC's are cheaper, I think they aren't buying Xeon's they are buying the dramatically cheaper i7 line, putting in a decent GPU and getting to work. This is a market the is served by the iMac with Apple. It is a hole in their line, and maybe that's why they are going to release?

Stirrin' the pot,

Jeremy


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 5:52:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Multiple GPUs broke FCS3.
"


Actually, multiple GPUs worked just fine on FCS3. Yu just needed to know how to do it. My 8 Core is a 4 monitor system (plus broadcast monitor out) running on an NVidia 285 plus the ATI card that came with the system. Motion and other GPU driven programs address the NVidia card, and the ATI supports a 3rd monitor (which I use in FCP for scopes, TC, and mixer) and a Wacom Cintiq.


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Robert Brown
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:14:45 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Actually, multiple GPUs worked just fine on FCS3. Yu just needed to know how to do it."

Show off!

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:18:36 pm

[Robert Brown] "[Chris Harlan] "Actually, multiple GPUs worked just fine on FCS3. Yu just needed to know how to do it."

Show off!"


But that was just more than one card in the box, right Chris? Or are you saying that you were able to link them to each other for better performance?

NVIDIA calls it Maximus technology, but the point is graphics RAID, so to speak.

That's the thing I think he's saying that Mac doesn't support...which I didn't think it does...but hey, you're clearly ahead of the curve here. :-)

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:46:40 pm

[Tim Wilson] "
[Robert Brown] "[Chris Harlan] "Actually, multiple GPUs worked just fine on FCS3. Yu just needed to know how to do it."

Show off!"

But that was just more than one card in the box, right Chris? Or are you saying that you were able to link them to each other for better performance?

NVIDIA calls it Maximus technology, but the point is graphics RAID, so to speak.

That's the thing I think he's saying that Mac doesn't support...which I didn't think it does...but hey, you're clearly ahead of the curve here. :-)
"


No. No SLI or anything like it. Apple is tragically behind on that kind of thing. No, the quote that Herb was referring to, and the problem attached to it that Jeremy was referencing, had to do with Apple actively selling multiple cards for more than two monitors, and that that configuration crashed FCS quite badly. Turned out--and I think I probably learned it from the cow--you needed to have mismatched cards to make more than two monitors work on FCP.


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:50:41 pm

[Robert Brown] "[Chris Harlan] "Actually, multiple GPUs worked just fine on FCS3. Yu just needed to know how to do it."

Show off!"


Nope. I think I just learned how to do it by reading the cow, while letting others bleed their knuckles for me.


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Robert Brown
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 8:16:46 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Nope. I think I just learned how to do it by reading the cow, while letting others bleed their knuckles for me."

Sounds interesting but I'm out of slots. Maybe if Tim could kick his brother in law the next time he sees him if he reads this.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 8:26:07 pm

[Robert Brown] "Sounds interesting but I'm out of slots. Maybe if Tim could kick his brother in law the next time he sees him if he reads this."

Glad to oblige. :-)

Of course my sister will beat my ass to the ground, but I'm willing to take one for the team.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Robert Brown
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:46:07 pm

If he'd only said 1.7.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:29:21 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Actually, multiple GPUs worked just fine on FCS3."

Mmm, OK. I'll go with "just fine".

It certainly didn't offer anything in terms of performance gains like CS6/Resolve can do today.


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:53:51 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "Actually, multiple GPUs worked just fine on FCS3."

Mmm, OK. I'll go with "just fine".

It certainly didn't offer anything in terms of performance gains like CS6/Resolve can do today.
"


No. Definitely not. In fact, I'm guessing I have to remove my ATI card to get optimal 285 performance, as Premiere isn't seeing it (though AE is.)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 6:55:25 pm

[Chris Harlan] "No. Definitely not. In fact, I'm guessing I have to remove my ATI card to get optimal 285 performance, as Premiere isn't seeing it (though AE is.)"

Yep. I'll go with busted. ;)

Just kidding.

Jeremy


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Chris Harlan
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 7:10:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "No. Definitely not. In fact, I'm guessing I have to remove my ATI card to get optimal 285 performance, as Premiere isn't seeing it (though AE is.)"

Yep. I'll go with busted. ;)

Just kidding.
"



Busted? No, its actually a conundrum. I like having all those monitors. Having a Cintiq hooked up can be pretty useful. And Mercury software playback with Pr is robust. I am curious about the enVidia card and it might offer, but I'm not sure its worth the trade. I'd like to figure out why Mercury sees it in AE but not in Pr.


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:53:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Apple's replacement might not support multiple GPUs if Apple remains true to their design as they have since the return of the g3 tower."

Historical footnote: my brother-in-law is partly to blame for the dawn of the 3-slot era. He was asked by Steve to research the average number of slots in use across that tier of the product line, and the answer was 1.1. Steve said, fine, round it up to 1.5 and double it: 3 slots.

My boy is a pretty humble dude, and I can't imagine he'd make something like this up -- especially because he only told me this story after I was ranting to him about Apple cutting the number of slots. (My Mac at the time had six slots, five in use.)

Sweet guy, but nicknamed The Executioner. He also killed off Apple's printers and scanners. People got very nervous when he became the head of their group....

Anyway, we actually walked the floor together at NAB in 1998, where I brought him to the basement to see the demo of Macromedia Final Cut running on Windows. They were throwing out t-shirts and said "Last one!" -- and he grabbed it for me. A true mensch. I still have the shirt.

He didn't even mind me yelling at him about the slots...probably because I yelled about so much in those days. Believe it or not, I'm much calmer now.

Anyway, that's my boy.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:51:59 pm

[Herb Sevush] "He specifically mentioned June 10th as a time when he thought more customers would be interested in what he had to sell. Make of that what you will.
"


I might be wrong but wouldn't an HP rep be the last person to know what Apples plans are?

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:56:18 pm

[Steve Connor] "I might be wrong but wouldn't an HP rep be the last person to know what Apples plans are?"

Yes, you are wrong. They buy from the same vendors, they hire the same people, they are intensely interested in what the other party is doing.
It's in their financial interests to know, and, as always, money talks.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 4:01:46 pm

...and the "leakiness" continues

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/06/alleged-new-part-numbers-suggest-over-a...

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Shawn Miller
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 6, 2012 at 7:50:52 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Sidebar -- let's say there's some new Mac Pro sizzle core action days away from release. Who here will place an order immediately? Who here used to buy Mac Pros, but will now stick with iMacs or MBPs instead?"

Same question to you, Walter. Are you considering a Mac Pro purchase on day zero?

Thanks,

Shawn



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Walter Soyka
Re: New Mac Pro -- will you buy?
on Jun 8, 2012 at 2:37:33 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Same question to you, Walter. Are you considering a Mac Pro purchase on day zero?"

Nope.

A year ago? Absolutely. Today? Not so much. I'm not ruling out a future Mac Pro purchase, particularly for Smoke 2013, but I won't be jumping on this one immediately.

I'm keeping my current Macs, and I'll buy more in the future -- but I'll need a compelling reason to pick up Mac Pros instead of iMacs or MBPs.

Now that I've gone cross-platform, I don't have to settle for the most powerful Mac. I can get the most powerful computer.

If Apple surprises me with a monster sizzle core beast, vastly improved GPU support, and a proper workstation that rivals the Z-series, then we'll revisit, but even then, I don't see myself going all-Apple again any time soon. Running Macs and PCs side-by-side has been working out really well.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Viktor Kamenický
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 9:49:04 am

From 9to5mac article

"Apple had been “investing heavily” in the professional desktop computer."

This could be interesting.

"You never want to get to get a call from the editing room"
Art Adams


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:56:14 pm

[Chris Conlee] "I'm betting that Apple did indeed plan on killing off the Mac Pro"

Even if they told us, I'm not sure we'd believe them -- but I still can't imagine that's true. TALK about it, yes. Of course. PLAN on it? Not a chance.

Did nobody look this up? Same interval now as between the first two models of the Mac Pro.

This actually used to happen with FCP too. It settled into a rhythm of two years apart, almost to the day.
2003: New version.
2004: Apple is killing FCP!
2005: New version.
2006: Apple is killing FCP!
2007: New version. Of course it turns out that this is the release where Apple killed FCP. They just kept selling it so nobody noticed...but still...
2008: Apple is killing FCP!
2009: New version; aka, patch release provided as FCP was in fact circling the drain.
2010: Apple is killing FCP!
2011: New version, the one that hopefully made clear that FCP was EOL'd in 2007....but still...the two year interval.

The point being that 2 years is a very important interval, one that has been repeated many times -- including between the first 2 models of the Mac Pro...and the previous one and this one.

Of course there's still plenty of time for Apple to make us look like idiots. They're masters at making EVERYONE who predicts ANYTHING be at least a little wrong about SOMETHING.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 1:59:20 pm

You're right of course, especially about the new MacPro,but it's so much FUN to speculate even when you're wrong some of the time.

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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Fredy Schwerdtner
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:15:40 pm

I agree with Steve about the FUN of the speculation and those who like it could give me the numbers of the lottery .

iMac 2.7 GHz Intel 4 Core i5
16 GB memory

MacBook Pro 17"
2.5 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
6GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM

OWC RAID 5 with 4TB

OS X 10.7.3
FCPX
Final Cut Studio "3"


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Tim Wilson
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:18:28 pm

[Steve Connor] "...it's so much FUN to speculate even when you're wrong some of the time."

Are you kidding? It's AWESOME. That's why this forum is the most fun you can have on the net with your clothes on. Or with your clothes off but we don't have to see pictures of you.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:50:13 pm

Tim's right.

If there's a new MacPro, it was certainly planned.

It's like the FCPX debate. People say a second viewer wasn't planned from the beginning, I'd say, the framework is already apparent, just have a look at the multicam viewer and multicam was support was announced shortly after the FCPX release.

It would be really hard to all if a sudden start sourcing motherboards, cooling systems, ram, and all the myriad of bits and bobs thy need to go into the reliable design of a machine, and then test it.

If there really is a new MacPro, then Apple is waiting for their major yearly event to announce the new machine, and if parts are readily available, maybe it will ship soon after announcement. Apple is fairly decent at announcing something then shipping soon after. HP announced the new Xeons a long time ago, gave a release date, then didn't hit that initial date due to no fault of their own. There's two different styles there.

I think Steve nailed it. The only thing that happened here is that Apple EOLd FCS3. It's a major EOL for sure, but if that didn't happen, this hardware lag would be business as usual at Apple, and there'd be much less fear even if Apple had announced a dot update of fcs3 at NAB 2011.

These things take time. You can't just turn a crank and push out MacPros.


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Herb Sevush
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 2:54:17 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think Steve nailed it. The only thing that happened here is that Apple EOLd FCS3. It's a major EOL for sure, but if that didn't happen, this hardware lag would be business as usual at Apple,"

I agree with this totally. The EOL of Legacy made made everything Apple did look ominous, and if there is a refresh then it obviously has been in the works for some time. However I haven't heard any official announcements yet, and just cause your paranoid it doesn't mean your wrong.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: New Mac Pro
on Jun 6, 2012 at 3:49:27 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I agree with this totally. The EOL of Legacy made made everything Apple did look ominous, and if there is a refresh then it obviously has been in the works for some time. However I haven't heard any official announcements yet, and just cause your paranoid it doesn't mean your wrong.
"


I'm confident the Apple "leaky" marketing strategy seems to be in full force at the moment, at least this time next week we should know!

Steve Connor
"The ripple command is just a workaround for not having a magnetic timelinel"
Adrenalin Television


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