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"Smart Rendering" in Premiere

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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
"Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 15, 2012 at 8:42:46 pm

I posted this in the Premiere Forum, but they were totally uninterested and even seemed to be attacking me for suggesting it was big deal. Anyway, I'm posting it here, since I think you guys will be far more interested. Here's my post, copied in it's entirety.

-------------------------------------------------

Did anyone notice the little mention of "Smart Rendering" in the update to AME? http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2012/05/adobe-media-encoder-cs6-...

As I recall "smart rendering" is how the adobe reps on the cow have referred to FCP's method of exporting.
(for those who don't know what I'm talking about, FCP exports without re-rendering any frames that 1) haven't changed from the source footage, or 2) have been rendered in place on the timeline during editing, kinda like PP's preview, but more robust since the renders are used in the output. This way FCP exports can be very, very fast since everything can already be rendered. Very nice when you're in a hurry.)

Apparently the smart rendering feature defaults to off, but it is there. It isn't in PP yet though.


I can't really dig into it because when I turned on my computer to install CS6, my RAID controller exploded, so have fun without me...


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Walter Soyka
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 15, 2012 at 9:00:38 pm

[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] "I posted this in the Premiere Forum, but they were totally uninterested and even seemed to be attacking me for suggesting it was big deal."

They were wrong. This would be very cool.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 15, 2012 at 9:12:49 pm

I tested it. Rendered a XDCAM HD file, and then turned around and rendered it again.

Dropped them into AE and set it to diference. The first 2 frames and the last 30 were different, all the rest were identical.

Tried it again queueing the render from Premiere, but it didn't work, so the function has no real use yet.

This was all on windows. When I tried on Mac, (Because of creative cloud, I have finally been able to install Premiere on my MBP that I use for everything except editing.) I found that MXF wasn't even a option????

Is not being able to render to a MXF OP1a normal for Premiere on a Mac?


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Jules bowman
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 15, 2012 at 9:32:16 pm

It said in the notes it isn't usable in PP yet so to keep it off for now, but to stay tuned.

Exciting though for when PP is ready.


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Gary Huff
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 15, 2012 at 10:54:38 pm

[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] "I posted this in the Premiere Forum, but they were totally uninterested and even seemed to be attacking me for suggesting it was big deal."

I saw that thread. You seem to think people should fawn over you for bringing this up. You should just move on.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 15, 2012 at 11:24:12 pm

Remember guys, it's only op1a mxf, and it's only straight passthroughs with no effects.

Still, it's a good thing.


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Jules bowman
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 7:07:15 am

Jeremy what did that mean in your post? Does this feature, when finally ready, address at all the fact PP re renders everything each time you export?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 11:55:32 am

[Jules bowman] "Jeremy what did that mean in your post? Does this feature, when finally ready, address at all the fact PP re renders everything each time you export?"

For very particular formats, and only if there's no effects. So basically, bring in op1a MXF media, edit it, don't do anything else to it that requires more processing, and export.

Jeremy


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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 15, 2012 at 11:31:20 pm

[Gary Huff] "I saw that thread. You seem to think people should fawn over you for bringing this up. You should just move on."

Wats up with this 'nasty tone'? Most of your input on this forum is a retort of some sort.

If you get offended so easily then perhaps you need to "MOVE ON"



Sohrab

FCS 3, AJA Kona Lhi & Adobe PPro



"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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Chris Harlan
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 12:06:05 am

[Gary Huff] "[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] "I posted this in the Premiere Forum, but they were totally uninterested and even seemed to be attacking me for suggesting it was big deal."

I saw that thread. You seem to think people should fawn over you for bringing this up. You should just move on.
"


Wrong side of the bed today, Gary? Or is there some hidden offense in this fellow's post that I cannot see?


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Gary Huff
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 8:41:40 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Wrong side of the bed today, Gary? Or is there some hidden offense in this fellow's post that I cannot see?"

"but they were totally uninterested and even seemed to be attacking me for suggesting it was big deal."

Seems to disparage the people who participated on the thread who in no way were doing such a thing.


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Chris Harlan
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 17, 2012 at 2:50:29 am

[Gary Huff] "Seems to disparage the people who participated on the thread who in no way were doing such a thing.
"


Ah. Got it.


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Bernhard Grininger
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 7:46:34 am

Hello,

You simply have had addressed Premiere's biggest weakness,
and PremierePro users are simply used to another workflow philosophy.

This weakness is the lack of a high-end intermediate codec.

But Adobe is aware of this problem, as has been mentioned here
by Dennis Radeke at the forums (sorry for not finding the thread at the moment).

Recently I read GrassValley's White Paper
AVC-Intra for HD-Editing and Production
Very reasonable arguments for a an AVC-I workflow in there!
EBU also does like it.

It seems AVC-I is more robust than ProRes and DNxHD.
It's current disadvantage is the implemented datarate of 100Mb/s,
that takes quality somewhere in between ProResLT and ProRes422.
AVC-I Class200 and Class400 should be of higher quality than ProResHQ
and ProRes4444.


Since Adobe will need to support AVC-Ultra either way,
perhaps this problem will be solved very naturally and elegantly
when released next year!



But then there arises another problem:
Please does anyone know for sure how "open" AVC-I really is?
The current modes are standardized by the SMPTE:
http://www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/detail?doc_no=smpte%7Crp_2027_2007;produc...

But how are the chances we will see non-Panasonic Field Recorders and Cameras capturing AVC-I 200/400
as we see them today with ProRes and DNxHD?

I never ever again want to use proprietary/non-open camera codecs and proprietary recording media!
NEVER EVER!

Best regards,
Bernhard


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 1:33:27 pm

While heartedly agree Bernhard.

I've been thinking the same thing.

Op-atom MXF is a "difficult" file structure, but that doesn't mean it can't be rewrapped to op1a later.

AVC-Intra is already cross platform, and plugs in to almost any NLE on the planet through a variety of methods.

Avid's Nitris hardware also captures to AVC-I.

It also has a 50mb variant for certain broadcast workflows and archiving.

I'm a big fan, but we will have to see how it holds up in post.

ProRes's multi-generational capabilities are pretty stellar. It will be interesting to see if this plays out.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 2:26:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm a big fan, but we will have to see how it holds up in post. "

I'm ready to be a big fan.

I just need alpha channels.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 3:02:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I just need alpha channels."

Matte and fill!!!!!


;)


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Walter Soyka
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 3:07:22 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Matte and fill!!!!! ;)"

Oh, man. Was I this harsh to you in the Editing Scenario/PIOP thread? ;)

Don't make me use image sequences!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 3:17:03 pm

QuickTime, for all of its huge and giant legacy faults, really solved a metric ton of problems.

In my heart of hearts, I know it's time to move on. Hell, Apple even knows that.

I think AVC-I is a pretty decent solution, but the MXF container isn't quite perfect.

I do think that an NLE company, such as Adobe, can make this work.

It's obvious that Avid is keeping their MXF protocols kind of locked to their software. It makes sense.

Since Adobe isn't tied to any of that, they are the ones that can truly bring MXF to the masses (in my opinion).

MXF capability is already deeply ingrained in the CS tools.

I guess I don't know how this works. I doubt that Panasonic has any benefit in making an alpha for AVC-I, but if licensed, can Adobe implement alpha's?

I dunno. More food for thought.


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Walter Soyka
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 3:25:54 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I guess I don't know how this works. I doubt that Panasonic has any benefit in making an alpha for AVC-I, but if licensed, can Adobe implement alpha's?"

I blathered a bit about the possibility of alpha support [link] last month.

I think that the support must be industry-wide -- built in to the spec -- for it to be useful. If I can't count on another app or device correctly interpreting the alpha, I may as well deliver M&F.

You're right that this is one of the things that's really nice about QuickTime -- the architecture is all already there, and both ProRes 4444 and DNxHD support alpha natively.

Personally, if we must build a new architecture anyway, I'd love to have OpenEXR-style multichannel support beyond simple alpha for transparency. Unfortunately, I don't think that's very realistic to expect.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bernhard Grininger
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 3:14:55 pm

Somewhere I read that the team of the x264 project is working on implementing an option
to encode AVC-I. As far as I understood, the problem is the MXF container.

Perhaps AVC-I 200 and 400 could also be implemented in x264;
and adding an Alpha Channel couldn'nd be such a problem.
I think it's not a question of technology, but how open AVC-I really is.

I definitely would prefer if there was a x264 implementation of AVC-I /200 /400.

x264 is open source, but could also be licensed commercially for a minimum fee.

I dream of a professional video future in which all professional NLEs are using x246's AVC-I,
and not-over-expansed field recorders and cameras are available like ProRes-Tools are today.

Best regards,
Bernhard


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 16, 2012 at 9:34:25 pm

Hey, Bernhard.

Curious as to why you think x264 would help here?

Adobe Media Encoder can encode to AVC-I already (which includes Pr and Pl).

The MXF container is also open source, but some of the parts of it like media libraries and such, aren't quite open source. It's kind of difficult to fully understand, I know I certainly don't.


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Bernhard Grininger
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 17, 2012 at 7:43:15 am

Jeremy,

the first reason I thought of is, x264 is the best H.264 encoder.
If AVC-I becomes the new ProRes, I'm simply afraid
while every NLE would be able to encode to AVC-I relying
on different AVC-I SDKs, that there would still be
quality differences between implementations.
Definitely won't like to see arguments like "We encode AVC-I better than ..."
With ProRes, consistent quality could be guaranteed. We need less complexity,
not more.

The second reason is, that an open-source implementation would allow
every NLE building company to integrate this standard for minimal license fees,
and not only for import, but also for a whole workflow.

Third, an open-source implementation would perhaps allow
Hardware Manufacturers like Blackmagic and AJA to implement
the code on their ACICs. Better would be an open hardware implementation,
every camera, recorder, and Video-I/O manufacturer is allowed to use.


Or put simply:
An open-source implementation would avoid
typical restrictions we got used to know in the industry.

ProRes is relatively open and available right now,
and I'm NOT willing to give up only a tiniest bit of this freedom!




Best regards,
Bernhard


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 17, 2012 at 3:42:15 pm

[Bernhard Grininger] "the first reason I thought of is, x264 is the best H.264 encoder.
If AVC-I becomes the new ProRes, I'm simply afraid
while every NLE would be able to encode to AVC-I relying
on different AVC-I SDKs, that there would still be
quality differences between implementations.
Definitely won't like to see arguments like "We encode AVC-I better than ..."
With ProRes, consistent quality could be guaranteed. We need less complexity,
not more."


I guess I'm confused.

You know AVC-Intra belongs to Panasonic, right?

I don't think that Panasonic would open source AVC-Intra, but you never know.

It certainly seems licensable. I have a third party QT encoder for my Mac, and Adobe includes it in AME.

Open source is a double edged sword. It would solve a lot of problems, but it also creates some problems.

A universal codec is not an easy problem to solve.

Jeremy


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Bernhard Grininger
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 17, 2012 at 4:26:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You know AVC-Intra belongs to Panasonic, right?"

This is the crucial question here. Does AVC-I really belong to Panasonic?
- It has been standardized by the SMPTE.
- Furthermore it is an encoding variant of the H.264 profile High 10 Intra and High 4:2:2 Intra.

Please does anyone here know for sure, what legal status AVC-I has?


Best regards,
Bernhard


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Bernhard Grininger
Re: "Smart Rendering" in Premiere
on May 17, 2012 at 11:52:00 am

Jeremy,

I was very surprised to read in the GV-4095M White Paper
"AVC-Intra for HD-Editing and Production", Pg.7
that AVC-I seems to be more robust than ProRes and DNxHD!

In fact this has changed my mind. I have to admit that I
wasn't that fan of AVC-I because it has been developed
by a camera manufacturer – therefor I'm naturally skeptical;
(thought I do very appreciate the fair-priced AVC-I Cams
Panasonic has produced in recent years).

But I don't want to exchange one set of restrictions
(ProRes in Software interoperability) through another
(AVC-I in Hardware interoperability).

Put simply:
AVC-Ultra needs to become an Open Standard!
Software AND Hardware.


Best regards,
Bernhard


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