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OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic

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Greg Andonian
OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 11, 2012 at 8:15:24 pm

Every time I read about the changes in Windows 8 I kept telling myself that it's not going to be as bad as it sounds. But it's starting to look like my fears were justified.

http://techtalk.pcpitstop.com/2012/05/01/windows-8-the-view-from-the-inside...

It's as if Microsoft was inspired by the FCPX rollout when they made this thing...

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Shawn Miller
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 11, 2012 at 8:27:45 pm

[Greg Andonian] "Every time I read about the changes in Windows 8 I kept telling myself that it's not going to be as bad as it sounds. But it's starting to look like my fears were justified."

I know people who are using Win 8 as their main OS, today... it's not that bad. Watch enough usability studies, and you'll see users like this regardless of OS or software application.

Shawn



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santiago marti
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 11, 2012 at 8:56:29 pm

Hello everybody, My name is Santiago, I'm from Argentina and i've been reading this forum since the FCP debacle, let me tell you, it's been really fun!!!!

I am a PC user, been editing for 15 years with lots of NLEs, like speedrazor, *EDIT, etc. Now I'm on CS6 and loving it, i own a red one and a red epic, so my workflow is dictated by red native format.

I am running win8 right now, it is not bad at all, if you don't like the GUI, well, you can avoid it most of the time and stick to the traditional win7 GUI, but if you learn a little you'll like win8 GUI.

I use an IBuyPower laptop with a six core i7, 12 GIGs of ram, system SSD and a GTX560. Couldn't be happier with this machine, it runs 5k at 1/4 res very fluidly on CS6 and Win8. It is the best WinOs to date for me. I also had the chance to try an HP prototype tablet, with a core i5, Win8, and a docking station that turns the tablet into an all in one. The concept is really interesting!

Well, will see how it evolves.


Santiago Martí.
Director at
http://www.robotrojo.com.ar


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Lance Bachelder
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 11, 2012 at 10:36:50 pm

Wow that's quite the laptop! Good to hear about Win8 - I haven't tried it yet but have no issues with Win7. Now Vista, nothing can be that bad!

What kind of shows are doing in Argentina with all that awesome gear?

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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santiago marti
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 11, 2012 at 10:48:54 pm

Yes, it is quite a laptop, and not that expensive indeed. Originpc sells even better ones with the same barebone chassis.

I work mostly as a camera rental and as a DIT on set. Then i often do the color grading and sometimes edit myself. I used top be a fulltime editor and aftereffects artist. I will post some of my work soon!

Santiago Martí
Director at
http://www.robotrojo.com.ar


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 11, 2012 at 10:34:27 pm

I've tried the consumer preview. Metro is certainly different and takes a bit of getting used to, but humanity somehow survived without a start button prior to Windows 95, and we collectively managed to learn to use a bunch of other new computing interfaces, including DOS, Win 3.1, Win95, OS9, OS X, iOS, and Android. Like FCPX, Metro requires retraining, though I don't think that it requires thinking different to the degree that FCPX does. Also like FCPX, I think that some people will find they actually prefer Metro after getting used to it, and I'd suspect that you'll have go pry the Start button from the cold, dead hands of others.

There are a few cool things to like about Metro. It's clean and uncluttered with very little chrome, and a big emphasis on design, layout and large type to convey information instead of dozens of on-screen widgets, icons, and doodads. It's eminently touchable, but still reasonably keyboard-friendly with instant search.

While it will create a lot of headlines, I don't know if Metro will really big a big deal for most of us. Without a Metro-native NLE, Metro will be a bit like Launchpad. I won't be spending a ton of time in it: the vast majority of my time on my workstation is spent in the apps I do my work in, not on the desktop or in the start menu. Whether I launch AE, Pr, or C4D from the start menu, the task bar, the dock, or a tile seems immaterial.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Andrew Richards
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 12, 2012 at 2:00:56 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Metro is certainly different and takes a bit of getting used to, but humanity somehow survived without a start button prior to Windows 95, and we collectively managed to learn to use a bunch of other new computing interfaces, including DOS, Win 3.1, Win95, OS9, OS X, iOS, and Android."

And aside from DOS, what do all of those have in common? Visual cues in the UI. Once users wrapped their heads around pointing devices, they figured out that there were "buttons" on the screen that did stuff when clicked. DOS did not, and that is why the Macintosh and later Windows was so popular. DOS was hardly mainstream, only hardcore early computer users used DOS or its command line peers. The GUI and the pointing device brought general purpose computing to the masses and made the tomes of command line syntax obsolete. Users could find their own way via visual conventions being established for GUIs and pointing devices.

Where Win8 and Metro fails on the desktop is that there are no visual cues for essential functions. The vast majority of the world's 500,000,000+ Windows users will be utterly lost in Win8 because they are expected to know secret-handshake "gestures" (which are not really gestures when you aren't using touch) that they must perform with a mouse pointer when they are used to 15 years of having visual cues to click on with their mice. There is no on-screen indication of how to access the Start Screen from the desktop (once you've figured out how to get to it), how to close a Metro App, or a host of other essential navigation functions.

To wit:





There's a guy who has used Windows for years, prefers it, and is utterly lost in Win8. I can relate (to the being lost part- I've always disliked Windows). I found myself poking around in vain like he did, and ultimately having to google how to do things in Win8. Even though I dislike Windows, I consider myself an above-average user, and I was lost. I can only imagine how frustrating it will be for the rank and file.

Yes, Microsoft can add tutorial videos that play when a user logs in the first time, but that's still a failure. Memorizing gestures and having to perform them with a mouse on a large screen is just bad UI design. Think of the headaches this will cause for IT departments who might deploy it to hundreds or thousands (or tens of thousands) of corporate users, virtually all of whom will be as lost as I was. The training expense will be considerable.

[Walter Soyka] "Like FCPX, Metro requires retraining, though I don't think that it requires thinking different to the degree that FCPX does. Also like FCPX, I think that some people will find they actually prefer Metro after getting used to it, and I'd suspect that you'll have go pry the Start button from the cold, dead hands of others."

FCPX requires retraining for veteran NLE users, but it is reportedly a very quick uptake for novices. That's the big difference between FCPX's UI and Win8's UI- you can sit down with no instruction and stumble though FCPX. In Win8 you'll reach dead ends in the UI that you cannot escape without a secret-handshake gesture.

[Walter Soyka] "There are a few cool things to like about Metro. It's clean and uncluttered with very little chrome, and a big emphasis on design, layout and large type to convey information instead of dozens of on-screen widgets, icons, and doodads. It's eminently touchable, but still reasonably keyboard-friendly with instant search."

Metro is nice looking, and I like the design language. It is clearly designed for touch first, and even then you need to know the secret-handshake gestures to navigate. Gestures are a great option for power users, but for the vast majority of users, on-screen UI indications of what can be done is the only way they will know what they can do to navigate. How many iPad users do you think know about and use the gesture to swipe between apps? How many do you think know about double-tapping the home button to switch apps?

Microsoft saw what was happening in the market with iPad sales and figured they needed to out-flank Apple on the seemingly inevitable convergence of iOS and OS X. This is ironic, because Apple has doubled down on the desktop by accelerating the release tempo of OS X to match the annual cycle of iOS. The day may come when you can dock an iPad or iPhone with a screen, keyboard, and pointing device, and get a modified UI with windowing that resembles OS X, but I think that day is still several years away at minimum.

WARNING: ANALOGY/METAPHOR APPROACHING!

Microsoft is jumping off the high dive into a pool that hasn't finished filling.

[Walter Soyka] "While it will create a lot of headlines, I don't know if Metro will really big a big deal for most of us. Without a Metro-native NLE, Metro will be a bit like Launchpad. I won't be spending a ton of time in it: the vast majority of my time on my workstation is spent in the apps I do my work in, not on the desktop or in the start menu. Whether I launch AE, Pr, or C4D from the start menu, the task bar, the dock, or a tile seems immaterial."

I agree, for a dedicated workstation there is less poking around the OS. You get your handful of apps pinned to the task tray or Start screen and learn the secret handshakes. You'll get situated and get on with your work. But can you really argue that Microsoft isn't making things unnecessarily obtuse with the hidden UI in Win8? If the premise of this thread is that Win8 will tank worse than Vista, I'll buy that. Unless Microsoft makes some significant adjustments to the UI before launch (and they could), I think they will have a very upset user base on their hands.

Best,
Andy


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Walter Soyka
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 13, 2012 at 1:26:27 am

Andy, I agree with a lot of your criticisms. I certainly agree that it's a big risk and that there could be a big initial backlash.

That said, Windows phones are being really well reviewed. People actually like the Metro interface. The problem comes in when they are told that it's the new Windows. They rather naturally expect it to work like the old Windows -- and it doesn't.

Maybe Metro is hard-to-learn (the secret handshake gesture), but it's easy-to-use. That's not as good as easy-to-learn and easy-to-use, but that problem goes away shortly after release. It's certainly not as bad as easy-to-learn but hard-to-use (which you might argue current WIMP GUIs are). That means a really rough bump when people first start using it, but acceptance (and maybe even happiness) thereafter.

I think there are plenty of iOS actions that are totally unintuitive. Tap, drag, swipe, and pinch more or less make sense for computer users with a mouse background, but long hold? Three-finger swipe? Four-finger swipe? Five-finger pinch? Again, hard to learn, but easy to use.

I think it's kind of funny that Apple is expected to offer new and revolutionary interfaces -- cars instead of faster horses and all -- but Microsoft is excoriated for doing it. And the idea that Microsoft could actually be leveraging design principles to make computing better? Shocking!

Microsoft has been in the driver's seat for huge UI changes before. Fun fact: Solitaire was included with Windows 3.0 to teach people how to drag and drop, because once upon a time, no one knew to do that. Now that kind of knowledge is assumed.

Microsoft has popularized GUIs with Windows 3 (and having to teach people to use them, as above), introduced the Start button in Win 95 (totally removing the Program Manager), and introduced the ribbon in Office 2007 (which everyone hated at first because it was different but got over because it is actually workable). This isn't their first rodeo.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Andrew Richards
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 14, 2012 at 4:38:57 pm

[Walter Soyka] "That said, Windows phones are being really well reviewed. People actually like the Metro interface. The problem comes in when they are told that it's the new Windows. They rather naturally expect it to work like the old Windows -- and it doesn't."

They are well reviewed, but are not doing as well in terms of sales. That likely has a lot to do with the carriers and what they choose to push, so it could change.

[Walter Soyka] "Maybe Metro is hard-to-learn (the secret handshake gesture), but it's easy-to-use. That's not as good as easy-to-learn and easy-to-use, but that problem goes away shortly after release. It's certainly not as bad as easy-to-learn but hard-to-use (which you might argue current WIMP GUIs are). That means a really rough bump when people first start using it, but acceptance (and maybe even happiness) thereafter."

I'd call it "hard-to-discover". There is no visual indication of an interface, so you have to discover, learn, and internalize it externally. Users aren't going to stumble upon these gestures, especially not when using a mouse and keyboard. That makes for a very frustrating experience and a very bad first impression. Not something you want when someone is making a buying decision based on a test drive.

[Walter Soyka] "I think there are plenty of iOS actions that are totally unintuitive. Tap, drag, swipe, and pinch more or less make sense for computer users with a mouse background, but long hold? Three-finger swipe? Four-finger swipe? Five-finger pinch? Again, hard to learn, but easy to use."

The difference is that most of those gestures are alternatives to an on-screen default input. Think of those gestures as the touch equivalents of keyboard shortcuts. They are there for the power users who learn them, but they are not the default, or worse, the only input method.

[Walter Soyka] "I think it's kind of funny that Apple is expected to offer new and revolutionary interfaces -- cars instead of faster horses and all -- but Microsoft is excoriated for doing it. And the idea that Microsoft could actually be leveraging design principles to make computing better? Shocking!"

I don't fault MSFT at all for stepping out of its comfort zone or its users comfort zone with Metro. To the contrary, it is refreshing to see them take a leap with their UI and nice looking design. I'm focused on a practical flaw in their execution that makes it very difficult (or at minimum, awkward) to navigate.

[Walter Soyka] "Microsoft has popularized GUIs with Windows 3 (and having to teach people to use them, as above), introduced the Start button in Win 95 (totally removing the Program Manager), and introduced the ribbon in Office 2007 (which everyone hated at first because it was different but got over because it is actually workable). This isn't their first rodeo."

Maybe the inertia of Windows' market dominance will drag the user base into a world of invisible Metro gesture inputs, but Vista was toppled for much less egregious sins. All they need to do is add a little chrome back for the keyboard and mouse users, even if it only slides onto the screen when you mouse to a boundary. Or something. Aping 10" tablet touch gestures on a 20" desktop display with a mouse is dumb. They can correct that with minor UI tweaks that don't spoil the Metro design or ruin the UX.

Best,
Andy


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Greg Andonian
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 12, 2012 at 1:30:50 am

Well, it's good to see people are using it and even running PPro CS6 on it and liking it. That's encouraging.

How do you get to the metro tiles to launch a program without the start button though? There's a key on the keyboard with a Windows logo that now brings up the start menu, does that get you there?

I'm guessing Win 8 will make a lot more sense when used with a touchscreen monitor. I'm not sure I'd want to use one for a desktop though- having to raise my arms over and over again to poke and swipe at stuff seems like it would get tiring after a while...

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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santiago marti
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 12, 2012 at 2:28:50 am

Every app has it's tile, but i got used in win7 to press the Windows key from the keyboard, then type the name of the app and hit enter before the word is complete.

If you use it with your hands, you have to swipe the sides and the top and bottom, if you use the mouse, the corners are used. I spent one hour trying to figure how to shut down the computer!!!! But truth be told, it is the fastest Windows to date, no doubt.

Santiago Martí
Director at
http://www.robotrojo.com.ar


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Greg Andonian
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 12, 2012 at 3:15:03 am

santiago marti "But truth be told, it is the fastest Windows to date, no doubt."

That's good to hear- I'm glad it's working well for you.

While I've wondered about how well it will work for standard desktop PCs, the idea of using it on a tablet does sound cool. The Metro interface looks very similar to Windows Phone 7- which, although marginalized by iOS and Android, is actually a really good OS from what I hear.

One new idea I had that I thought would be cool- and I've heard they ARE actually working on these- is a laptop with a screen panel that can be swiveled around and closed with the screen facing up. That way it could be used as a tablet OR a laptop...

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 12, 2012 at 10:04:33 pm

This really leaves me scratching my head. I purchased a dual quad PC a couple of years ago, loaded with Vista Business 64-bit. I was really dreading all of the problems I was going to have, given the bad press that Vista got from many users.

Guess what? I'm still running Vista - doing various upgrades, etc., and I have yet to have a single problem with the OS. I'm running the CS5.5 Master Collection, 3DS Max 2011, Terragen 2, and several other demanding apps - I don't get what all the complaining was about. Of course, as we always say..."Your system may vary...contents may settle during shipping...etc."

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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santiago marti
Re: OT: Windows 8 makes Vista look fantastic
on May 13, 2012 at 6:12:29 am

You are right, vista is no Windows millenium! But 7 is better, and 8 is better than 7. Metro gui is aimed at tablets but still you have a big desktop tile, click it and you are in classic desktop mode.

Remember, before year ends, you'll start seeing tablets with Intel x86 cpus. In tablet mode use Metro gui, when docked, you can use classic desktop. You can also use classic desktop in tablet mode, that's why Windows explorer has the big and populated ribbon with every command at your finger tips. Believe me it is not bad at all.

You can download win8 consumer preview and install it on a vmplayer virtual machine legally and for free. It's worth it.

Santiago Martí
Director at
http://www.robotrojo.com.ar


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