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CS6 is released - so what now?

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Steve Connor
CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 8:19:17 pm

So that's it, if you're moving on from FCS3 then all our options are now before us (apart from the small matter of the Mac Pro)

Has the release of CS6 enabled you to make a decision about your future NLE of choice?

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Bret Williams
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 8:36:37 pm

Wait for the smoke to clear.


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Andrew Richards
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 8:50:47 pm

[Bret Williams] "Wait for the smoke to clear."







Best,
Andy


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 8:43:34 pm

... Lightworks still to come.

Franz.


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Bernard Newnham
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 8:48:12 pm

"apart from the small matter of the Mac Pro"

Easy - buy a PC.

B


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 8:55:30 pm

[Steve Connor] "So that's it, if you're moving on from FCS3 then all our options are now before us (apart from the small matter of the Mac Pro)

Has the release of CS6 enabled you to make a decision about your future NLE of choice?
"


I'm playing with it a bit, but I'm also working, so I'm not playing with it a lot. I like a lot of what I see, but I've seen some stability issues as well. Could be me, could be it, could be my laptop. Can't really tell. But it is too soon for me to hop on and say yeee-haa! If I do decide that this is going into the FCP 7 slot, next to Media Composer--and there is a fair chance I will--then I will slowly integrate it into my work habits through summer--and be prepared to power use it in fall. I'm also still interested in Smoke, but some elements of that may be far afield of where I am headed, so, again, I will play with that through the summer. The thing is--dag nabit!--I still like FCS 3. But, hey, its great to have these choices.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 9:06:50 pm

Finished my first job with CS6 today. Discovered a few bugs but no deal breakers. Quite pleased with the release,better than I thought it would turn out, promise of more great things to come and no stability issues for me so far. Still waiting for Edius 6.5 in June, feature list sounds splendid and, together with Avid, it's the most rock-solid app for tape in and out plus it just screams with speed at certain tasks.
Path is clear. Jumping between Edius and Premiere, depending on the type of job.
We also have an Avid for certain things that come in but it won't be my major NLE.
It took quite a long time and lots and lots of experimenting but we now have the entire toolset together to replace FCP studio and the Mac and have an equal if not better and faster workflow implementation across the board.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Alex Hawkins
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 11:03:18 pm

We'll be staying on the Adobe Creative Suite bandwagon. We're fairly chuffed about where it's headed. It suits our needs and Adobe seem to be a good company to deal with. Open and communicative.

We're also looking at the HPZ820's. We really like our MacPros and OSX so we might even run them side by side for a while.

I'm registered for the Smoke trial so we'll give that a burl when it's released.

All in all, I'm a happy little vegemite at the moment.

Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 11:44:24 pm

It certainly should never be an "either-or" scenario. However, there seem to be three models shaping up for many.

1. The complete suite environment. This is CS6 and it basically replaces FCS. In fact, it appears to one-up FCS by quite a bit with a far better combination of tools.

2. The everything-in-one-app. That's largely the Avid approach, especially with Symphony. Consider that with Symphony, you get BCC8, AvidFX and quite a few audio plug-ins - all of which run inside the NLE interface.

3. The tool box approach. This is probably where X fits best. Consider X + utilities + Smoke + Logic + Resolve. Seems like a very compelling small shop solution. Deploy X on all stations for basic cutting and then one each of the other apps for the "hero" rooms.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 11:58:17 pm

[Oliver Peters] "It certainly should never be an "either-or" scenario. However, there seem to be three models shaping up for many."

Oliver,

I think that's a very well-reasoned analysis.

Apple has definitely gone in a very different direction from the design goals of the past.

I remain convinced Apple's approach is designed to better meet the needs those who will pursue editing as a personal craft at every level including creating professional business content - rather than as a corporate job specialty for those who occupy seats in larger institutional settings. But regardless, there should be tools for editors at all levels.



"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 12:29:22 am

[Bill Davis] "I remain convinced Apple's approach is designed to better meet the needs those who will pursue editing as a personal craft at every level including creating professional business content"

Bill, Thanks. I would agree with this as well. Apple clearly decided there was no point in simply doing another application with the exact same features and processes as their competitors. We can at least be thankful that it was Apple who did this, as they are the only ones who could afford to take the risk. If anything, it's certainly livened up the crowd ;-)

And frankly they aren't the only ones rethinking things. For example, the metadata features built into FCP X are basically the same as what Adobe did in Prelude, except that Adobe decided to do it as a separate application. There is an argument to be made that Prelude is to Premiere Pro as iMovie is to FCP X. I don't mean that as a slam at all. Rather, that iMovie in fact *could* function as an simple producer-reporter-client-assistant tool as the front end to FCP X. Not sure it actually works that way, but a business case could be made for this.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 2:05:52 am

[Oliver Peters] "For example, the metadata features built into FCP X are basically the same as what Adobe did in Prelude, except that Adobe decided to do it as a separate application. There is an argument to be made that Prelude is to Premiere Pro as iMovie is to FCP X. I don't mean that as a slam at all. Rather, that iMovie in fact *could* function as an simple producer-reporter-client-assistant tool as the front end to FCP X. Not sure it actually works that way, but a business case could be made for this.
"


Not sure I understand the analogy Oliver.

While iMovie files can feed X, I can't imagine the business case for a producer, editor, or even executive to work with iMovie as a "pre-comp" utility when X's price is so negligible and it's much easier for someone to just use the primary tool rather than the consumer targeted one.

What's the point?

Isn't Prelude mostly a reflection of Adobe's current orientation where product "suites" are packaged together in relatively complex groupings of distinct products and the owner is expected to own and operate a "bundle" of separate software tools that interact nicely, but are NOT marketed to be the single solution as a standalone?

It's as if Adobe always expects that the producer needs their one tool, the assistant needs their one tool, the artist needs their one tool, etc, etc, etc.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this approach, btw. There were lots and lots of people delighted to maintain FCP chops, Photoshop chops, ProTools Pro, Filemaker Pro chops and After Effects chops (or similar) Adobe appears to have simply modernized this model of specialty separate "sub-packages for everyone."

Apple clearly feels that a single, unified program that allows editing, titling, audio sweetening, metadata management and basic motion graphics in a single unified construct to be a smarter approach.

There will surely be plenty of users who will value each vision over the other.

As to the Prelude metadata thing, I'm pretty much totally ignorant of how PPro works so I'll totally accept your opinion of it's strong metadata capabilities.

But as fascinated as I am with metadata in X being more useful and prominent in X than in Legacy, that's actually not the thing that most interests me about X as an editing platform.

It's more the "gestalt" of the whole approach. It's "right sizing" (my opinion) the editing engine into something that does enough to make it easy to create compelling content inside stripped down code that can be easier to use in the field.

It's also what I see as X's "balanced" approach between editing and metadata management. And it's rethinking the real-world input and export functions that are most needed by most editors today - even if that meant removing some robust capabilities that a large group of users historically depended upon. (DVD Authoring as a clear example)

Apple kinda did with it's video editing software precisely what it's built all of its other successes on - stripped away a lot of the less needed complexity and concentrated on making core functions that wrap a lot of power and capability in a simple, elegant user interface.

With the core re-built and operating well - we're starting to see the FCP-X team re-building higher level functions - but in new and interesting ways. And they're managing to do that without much software bloat. For instance, the new multi-cam construct did not seem to swell the program size very much at all, and in my experience, it hasn't slowed anything else down. In fact the core editing engine is working faster than ever for me even tho there's all that new multi-cam code inside.

Just Saturday, I produced a 12-camera four song music video shoot with a 5 piece jazz combo. I was already skimming the content, applying keywords, viewing scenes, and organizing assets within 10 minutes of wrap with nothing but a pair of MacBook Pros on set. Thanks to X, 48 hours later, the whole show is already in my event browser and I'm tagging my little heart out.

All I can really compare it to is my decade of editing in Legacy - and sorry, but I absolutely know I'd still be in red-line render hell if I was trying to accomplish this project the Classic FCP way.

Perhaps Premier would be as quick and stable as X is for me right now. And if so, that's nothing but great for Premier editors. But I'm not one of those. I'm a FCP-X editor and happy to be one. It's still both exciting and fun for me to sit here and operate it. Something I'd lost in Legacy after so many years. But I'm weird that way I guess.

I haven't got a clue as to whether in the long run this "12 camera" edit will turn out to be a smooth process or clog up and grind to a halt with so much content to work with. Stay Tuned.

But so far, so good. New tool, new parameters to test. New approaches to take.

I continue to feel that the work the Premier Pro team has done to refresh their products and the promise of Smoke et al are good signs for editing overall. And I've expressed as much here before.

But I'm still fascinated with THIS tool. It's changed much of my thinking about what editing might become for me in the future.

I understand that this approach will totally FAIL for other editors with different needs. But for me it's been an extremely positive revelation.

There is certainly a lot of new thinking as a result of the changes announced at NAB. I'm delighted that others are exploring the alternatives. I'm good to go here with X.

Fun time to be a video creator!

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 11:11:46 pm

[Bill Davis] "Not sure I understand the analogy Oliver.
While iMovie files can feed X, I can't imagine the business .....
.....Isn't Prelude mostly a reflection of Adobe's current orientation where ..
...but are NOT marketed to be the single solution as a standalone?"


I'm simply saying iMovie could in fact function as such. FCP X is already more than most non-editing-savvy clients/producers/journalists can cope with. Not saying it would be the way Apple chooses to approach it, but I do know they've been told by a few broadcast networks that a tool like iMovie does have a place in their operation for reporter-level video jockeys.

As far as Prelude, Adobe will in fact sell it as a standalone product to enterprises on volume licenses. Quite frankly it makes no sense to me to have it only in the suite. If you have Premiere, why wouldn't you just start there? Especially since you can't break up the apps in the bundle and do individual installations of isolated apps on various machines. Seems like Prelude would be better as a free app, or one that a customer could freely install on any machine, or a cheap standalone app offered via the web or even the App Store.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 11:29:44 pm

[Oliver Peters] "As far as Prelude, Adobe will in fact sell it as a standalone product to enterprises on volume licenses. Quite frankly it makes no sense to me to have it only in the suite. If you have Premiere, why wouldn't you just start there? Especially since you can't break up the apps in the bundle and do individual installations of isolated apps on various machines. Seems like Prelude would be better as a free app, or one that a customer could freely install on any machine, or a cheap standalone app offered via the web or even the App Store."

Have you messed with Prelude yet?

It's not an editor, it's more of an assembly tool. It has a "rough cut" feature, but it's not really cutting.


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 2:16:54 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Have you messed with Prelude yet?
It's not an editor, it's more of an assembly tool. It has a "rough cut" feature, but it's not really cutting."


Yes, I have. I don't think anyone said it was an editor. Of course, I don't consider iMovie much of an editor either ;-) Prelude is a logging/transcoding application with rough cut assembly capabilities. Sort of like DH's Movie Logger mashed up with QT Pro and Avid AMA .

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 2:45:42 am

I just think the term "rough cut" used in Prelude (Adobe's term, not mine) is a bit misleading.

Assembly is more accurate.

It does send to Pr as a sequence, though.

Just like Walter Soyka talked about skimming vs hover scrub, this is rough cut vs extended marker assembly.


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 2:55:29 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Assembly is more accurate."

But do you really want a producer to do more than this? This of it as an electronic paper edit.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 3:09:31 am

[Oliver Peters] "But do you really want a producer to do more than this? This of it as an electronic paper edit."

I tried to suggest to get the term "rough cut" removed and replaced with "assembly".

It didn't work.

I have seen people talk about Prelude in forums, and think it will be the iMovie to FCPX. A rough cut tool.

It isn't.

I am very intrigued by Prelude, and I think Adobe is trying to figure out where it's going to go, I have a suspicion that they have big plans for it. I do think that Rough Cut is misleading, unless someday they will give more "cutting" ability.

I hope that some day it become a kickass conform tool, but that probably won't happen.

What intrigues me most about the whole CS Suite is that there seems to be a vast transportation system throughout the whole thing. The problem right now is that a few of the highways and biways seem incomplete, and sometimes it seems you need to get on the bus that takes you all the way around town instead of getting on the subway that takes you straight across town.

High hopes though. Pr is hitting it's stride. It's fun to watch.


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Herb Sevush
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 11:34:02 pm

[Bill Davis] "Just Saturday, I produced a 12-camera four song music video shoot with a 5 piece jazz combo. I was already skimming the content, applying keywords, viewing scenes, and organizing assets within 10 minutes of wrap with nothing but a pair of MacBook Pros on set. Thanks to X, 48 hours later, the whole show is already in my event browser and I'm tagging my little heart out."

And I could've sworn that just last summer you were aghast at my hope for a 25 angle limitation for the FCPX multi-cam; you were hoping that 8 cameras would be the max for anything FCPX created for multicam. Something about how more than 8 camera's might bloat the programs code, and now here you are cutting a 12 camera video.

Ain't it funny how time slips away ...

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 8, 2012 at 11:58:02 pm

[Steve Connor] "So that's it, if you're moving on from FCS3 then all our options are now before us (apart from the small matter of the Mac Pro)

Has the release of CS6 enabled you to make a decision about your future NLE of choice?"


Well, I'm obviously impressed, but first impressions are one thing and reality is another. I'll be transitioning but the transition won't happen completely overnight.

For me two big issues are plug-ins and rendering/output workflow. Working the Adobe way will take getting used to. I need to run benchmarks and get a sense of what my expectations should be. Then see how it works in the real world.

For work with my LA partners, losing iChat Theater Preview will be a big bummer. We've gotten used to remote collaborative edit sessions and it makes our process much more efficient. Not ready to buy a AJA box just to use with Skype.

I'll download the Smoke trial out of curiosity but for the work I do it's way overkill.

Lightworks is interesting too.

Will even keep FCPX around. I think for certain kinds of projects it's perfect.

Sticking with MacOS so that rules out Edius and other PC NLEs

That really leaves PrPro and Avid and for my day-to-day needs, PrPro is a much better fit.

I'm happy we have so much choice this year.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Lance Bachelder
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 12:04:39 am

Not anti-Premiere comment here but so far I can't see any huge advantage over FCPX. I mean if an Editor absolutely has to cut using a source/record NLE I'd have no prob letting an Editor choose the NLE they like best.

Fortunately I don't have a feature to cut right now so I'll continue to play with CS6 and FCPX and keep an open mind to everything that's out there especially Smoke ....

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 12:21:55 am

[Lance Bachelder] "but so far I can't see any huge advantage over FCPX."

I don't think it's a question of advantage, but rather of how the NLE makes you work - especially in the timeline. PPro and X represent two completely different ways of working and some people like one way and others the opposite. The huge "advantage" is not having to relearn everything you know about how to manipulate a specific way of working software to achieve the necessary results.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 12:32:36 am

[Oliver Peters] "The huge "advantage" is not having to relearn everything you know about how to manipulate a specific way of working software to achieve the necessary results."

That's kind of impossible, no?

They are all different.

Yes, some applications share certain sensibilities, but the day to day operations can vary quite differently.

Adobe's and fcp7s media paths couldn't be more different and it greatly effects how you work.

Sure, there are ways to optimize everything, but it still represents totally different philosophies on editing, media management, and what we users need to do to achieve input, edit, and output.

X, of course is the least traditional.

Smoke will also come with lots of relearning of you've never touched a node.

Those going from Motion to AE will have some learning to do.

DVDSP and Encore are different, way different.

Everything will require a bit of a reboot.

J


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 12:37:15 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "They are all different.
Yes, some applications share certain sensibilities, but the day to day operations can vary quite differently.
Adobe's and fcp7s media paths couldn't be more different and it greatly effects how you work"


Hmmm.... Not sure I agree. If you know FCP "legacy" or MC or PPro, it's pretty seamless (as a user) to go back-and-forth among them. Explain the "Adobe/FCP7 media paths" comment, though. I don't see that myself, so what do you mean? The FCP 7 scratch folder media structure is basically identical to how Premiere works.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 1:21:55 am

[Oliver Peters] "Hmmm.... Not sure I agree. If you know FCP "legacy" or MC or PPro, it's pretty seamless (as a user) to go back-and-forth among them. Explain the "Adobe/FCP7 media paths" comment, though. I don't see that myself, so what do you mean? The FCP 7 scratch folder media structure is basically identical to how Premiere works."

I should have been more clear.

I meant media paths in how the media is imported, what happens when it's imported, what happens during editing , and finally what happens when you export.

With FCP, if you didn't have certain flavors of .mov, the media is either rewrapped to .mov or transcoded to mov. This can sometimes take time, and in many cases doubles up media (your original, and the working transcode copy).

Once in fcp7, your media usually matches (or closely matches) a timeline codec.

PPro does not have a timeline codec.

During editing in 7, your processed effects are rendered, usually throughout the editing process in pieces.

Premiere essentially encourages you to render only what you need to, and with a beefy CUDA system and depending on what types of footage you have, you really don't have to render at all.

When your project is complete and fully rendered in 7, 7 allows a very quick export (either by reference or self contained) to the timeline codec. With very sparse exceptions, this simply can't happen in Pr CS6, today. With Premiere, you have to transcode on export. There's a way to setup preview files and use those for faster access for premiere, and it's viable, but if you read the instructions, Adobe recommends NOT using preview files. It doesn't mean it can't be done. Those preview files are then reencoded.

So, 7 has transcode time up front, some render time in the middle and quick outputs.

Premiere has near zero import time, NOT a lot of rendering in the middle, and depending on your timeline, you can have significantly long outputs. The nice thing about Premiere is that the beefier machine you have, the faster all of it goes.

Here's some over generalizations, and a lot of this depends on your footage formats for both apps.

I will say, i-frame MXF editing in Premiere is wicked awesome. Anyway:

Visually, FCP's time looks like this for the most part: > from beginning to end. More time up front.

Visually, Pr's time looks like this for the most part: < from beginning to end. More time towards the end.

When you add dynamic link and other factors, Pr can get longer toward the end of the workflow. You can setup uncompressed Preview files (or ProRes if on a Mac, Cineform et al on all machines) and that will decrease export times, but using uncompressed will significantly hamper hard drive space and throughput.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, they are simply different and learning the Pr way to do things represents a difference in how FCP/Pr work, and they do represent differing philosophies.

Then there's media management. Reconnecting in Pr CAN be much harder depending on your footage, and you can mess it up pretty good if you're not careful. I realize our particular multi-user onsite/offsite workflow does not match others, so it is our particular problem and ymmv on that issue.

Again, I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they are different and should be recognized as such.

It's not hard or impossible, I just feel that Pr CS6 shouldn't be called "FCP8" as it takes away from the Pr philosophy of the media path.

QuickTime handles a lot of things that are open to the user on Premiere. There's pros and cons to both.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 1:32:45 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I should have been more clear. I meant media paths in how the media is imported, what happens when it's imported, what happens during editing , and finally what happens when you export. "

OK, I see. I'm not sure I see these as huge differences from how a user interacts with the application, but I see your point. I see it as the "same" in that both FCP7 and PPro let you directly access a lot of media from anywhere on your drives without transcoding. That's quite a bit different than Media Composer for example. There's a lot less "relearning" involved in going from FCP7 to PProCS6 than from FCP7 to MC.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 1:43:15 am

[Oliver Peters] "OK, I see. I'm not sure I see these as huge differences from how a user interacts with the application, but I see your point. I see it as the "same" in that both FCP7 and PPro let you directly access a lot of media from anywhere on your drives without transcoding. That's quite a bit different than Media Composer for example. There's a lot less "relearning" involved in going from FCP7 to PProCS6 than from FCP7 to MC."

I apologize and accidentally hit the "thumbs down" button instead of reply. I didn't mean to. I have tried to rethumbs up. If you see a -1, it's my mistake.

MC has it's own method, true.

Pr and FCP7 feel more similar, but really they aren't.

Think if an export takes 30 minutes in Premiere. After export, a client changes their mind. You make the change, it could be another 30 min export.

Or you have to make another version, that's another 30 minute export.

Again, this is an over generalization, but this process takes seconds/minutes in 7.

In my experience, there is a difference. It's not better or worse, you just have to adjust to how you probably worked in Premiere.


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 1:57:03 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Again, this is an over generalization, but this process takes seconds/minutes in 7."

There are no free lunches ;-) You always have to pay the render tax at some point. Up front, in the middle, at the end. Pick your poison.

Remember that some of these PPro issues are because people are buying into the "edit native" hype. So they'll cut long-GOP H264 or RED files directly, because it's so easy to start out that way. Then in the end, the time savings catch up to you. The same situation ("conforming") occurs when cutting native HDV or even Canon XF footage in FCP7.

Some of this has become worse as we are embracing a file-based world. When everything was output to tape and you had real-time hardware, like Avid Nitris DX or Matrox Axio for Premiere Pro, you didn't have a lengthy export, because the hardware took care of this and it was real-time out to tape. Now you no longer have that advantage, because there's no such thing as on-the-fly, real-time effects when you are writing a a multi-codec timeline out to a single-codec "flat" file.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 2:31:52 am

[Oliver Peters] "There are no free lunches ;-) You always have to pay the render tax at some point. Up front, in the middle, at the end. Pick your poison."

Of course. We are in total agreement. Pr works quite differently than 7.

[Oliver Peters] "Remember that some of these PPro issues are because people are buying into the "edit native" hype. So they'll cut long-GOP H264 or RED files directly, because it's so easy to start out that way. Then in the end, the time savings catch up to you. The same situation ("conforming") occurs when cutting native HDV or even Canon XF footage in FCP7."

Precisely. LongGOP in 7 is terrible. A ProRes timeline avoids most of that business, a really easy solution.

[Oliver Peters] "Some of this has become worse as we are embracing a file-based world. When everything was output to tape and you had real-time hardware, like Avid Nitris DX or Matrox Axio for Premiere Pro, you didn't have a lengthy export, because the hardware took care of this and it was real-time out to tape. Now you no longer have that advantage, because there's no such thing as on-the-fly, real-time effects when you are writing a a multi-codec timeline out to a single-codec "flat" file."

You could have a really expensive system and do this with Premiere (real time). I would wager that most on this forum wouldn't spring for it. So most of us will probably fall somewhere on the spectrum of very little real time to some very decent real time.

DavidL, I appreciate your enthusiasm for Red @ 1/16 resolution on an older laptop,mand you know what, I never thanked you for your article either. Thank you.

I have to say though, try 1/16 for a whole project, it gets pretty tiresome. Even 1/2 is tough. It's awesome for quickly checking shots, but it's not sustainable through a project, at least for me. I personally need more detail (I also use external monitors most of the time).

Again, this a great read for people opening Pr for the first time: http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2011/02/red-yellow-and-green-ren...


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David Lawrence
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 3:25:14 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "DavidL, I appreciate your enthusiasm for Red @ 1/16 resolution on an older laptop,mand you know what, I never thanked you for your article either. Thank you.

I have to say though, try 1/16 for a whole project, it gets pretty tiresome. Even 1/2 is tough. It's awesome for quickly checking shots, but it's not sustainable through a project, at least for me. I personally need more detail (I also use external monitors most of the time)."


Jeremy, thanks. And I appreciate your comments in the article thread as well.

I hear you about the limits of 1/16 res, I think I'm just shocked to see full-motion 4K playback on a machine this old. One nice thing is Premiere snaps the picture back into sharp focus when paused so you do see all detail. I was able to see the nuances of the actor's micro expressions and the differences between takes well enough to cut the scene. But I agree you wouldn't want to cut a feature (or even a short) this way. I'm just amazed that it's even possible.

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Dennis Radeke
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 10:47:47 am

1/16 resolution only shows up for RED type codecs (4k). You won't see any 1080 type frame sizes give you any options below 1/4.

Personally, I have no problem with 1/2 on any HD codec and if you're doing RED at 1/2, well then you're cookin' with gas, because you're playing back 2k from 4k original media. Of course, you need a 2k viewing device at that point...

In principle, I like to be at full res whenever I can, but if the timeline or the hardware (laptop for example) dictates, I will bump it down as needed.

I think the main idea is that the USER has control of what might be equivalent to FCP7's dynamic RT. Adobe is all about giving the user control.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 5:46:10 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Personally, I have no problem with 1/2 on any HD codec and if you're doing RED at 1/2, well then you're cookin' with gas, because you're playing back 2k from 4k original media. Of course, you need a 2k viewing device at that point..."

I edit in a paltry 1080 timeline. :)

Sorry guys, I am not trying to take anything away. It's amazing what can be done with Pr.

I find it awesome that Pr can playback Red footage. RCX has allowed this for a long time, too, also at reduced resolutions.

I typically edit with external monitors, and even using "medium" and "low" in FCP7 drives me nutty, even though the real time is stupendous.

But it's just me, I'm a nerd.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 8:43:46 pm

I share this too - but, you know, sometimes (a little too much even) you self deprecate with 'I'm dumb' stuff, Jeremy, I however really am genuinely stupid on the vast majority of this stuff.

the thing I feel is that with what I would have termed vanilla HD, which in my terms is prores, as in a properly optimised workflow codec, the application should not be asking to go to half res, particularly when it performs the action globally ala AE.

I take Dennis's point on offering the user control, but surely the point was that 7 did it dynamically on a per clip basis?

this is all moot because I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to CS6, as ever, and peeps seem to be saying that mercury or no mercury, the open timeline can perform with multiple codecs on recent hardware at up to 1080p resolution.

that's my primary concern though: I feel that, with adobe having not gone the route of a timeline playback DI codec, opting instead for a timeline built to handle natively, that for people looking at this application, they would have a reasonable expectation, (nvidia or no nvidia, and for many of us its no nvidia) that Premiere Pro 6 should be able to handle up to 1080p footage with dissolves and basic colour correction at 1080p output resolution, without having to cut the entire sequence resolution in half.

However, unlike my carping on FCPX, where I can at least stand over reasonable work through and awareness, I know the damn near of the utter nothing on this baby yet. And won't until an employer sticks it on, or the voucher email for the free 5.5 to 6 pops in my inbox... presuming at that point I've bought the imac creation to ride it on.

An iMac that will very likely have a (*currently*) unsupported GPU.

I just need to know that mercury is for fun and effect thrills, and that the actual software coding of the timeline, and its ability to throw all these native avchd formats sans a DI codec can be entrusted to a 12 month old CPU at up to 1080P. that is my genuine curiosity.

I do nearly all of my serious malarky in AE, I just need to know that premiere can stand as a multi-format timeline without Nvidia or the two mac laptops currently sanctioned.

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promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 11:19:23 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I share this too - but, you know, sometimes (a little too much even) you self deprecate with 'I'm dumb' stuff, Jeremy,"

Hey! I said I'm a nerd, are you calling me dumb? ;-D

Really, I can't possibly know everyone's requirements and experiences, I can only share mine. So in reality, I am not dumb, but I am certainly not omniscient. Some people can edit looking at artifacts. It drives me batty. It's the way I am, but not the way the world might feel.

Here's the odd things:

Some codecs require massive CPU to play and GPU has not much to do with it. R3d is one of those codecs. So is AVCHD. LongGOP AVCHD is a computationally "expensive" codec (even though the codec comes in very affordable cameras). I have an older laptop, and just playing back one stream of native AVCHD causes a huge CPU spike (hovers around 120% on my macbook pro that's 3 years old).

According to this linked Adobe document, here's what CUDA processes:

some effects
scaling
deinterlacing
blending modes
color space conversions

cs6 added a few more effects.

So PLAYBACK, general playback that is, is not CUDA/openCL based. Playback is based on CPU.

Considering you are thinking of getting a quad core, very new CPU and a "supported" GPU, I think that you will probably be just fine. If you had no AVCHD material, you'd be even better. I find that i-frame MXF codecs (like P2 based DVCPro HD, and Avc-Intra) work really really well.

What is GPU accelerated are effects. So the faster your GPU, the more you can do in real time when playing back a CPU expensive codec, along with real time effects.

That same AVCHD clip I told you about: if I add a 3way CC, the CPU jumps to 165-180% and frames drop while playing back and that's just adding the filter, there's no adjustments made to to the color at all.

Drop to half resolution, and playback works.

Adjusting this in real time simply does work at any resolution.

If I had a supported GPU, this would probably work, but my CPU is a bit long in the tooth by Adobe standards, and is also running the "wrong" OS.

I will say, however, I had this very same laptop on set the last few days, checking green screen shots from an Arri Alexa @ 444 ProRes in AE CS6.

The speed improvement over CS5.5 was astounding. I even tried 32bit for yucks. AE CS6 is sweet. You will love it.

Clear as mud, right?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 11:53:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Clear as mud, right?"

nope. that's a completely excellent, and highly informative public post.

CS6, says the prole, feels like an utterly massive release, I mean even the way they just threw speedgrade in there?
I mean good god right? that is right in its infancy in the suite. I am genuinely near mad to get the suite working in my gaff.
It feels like the software equivalent of a childhood boxed millenium falcon.

As you say: adobe are looking to drive through with disparate, native, highly compressed capture codecs that demand CPU at every stage.
Part of me, in my heart of hearts, cannot get rid of the catholic guilt that says that looking to perform with non-optimised camera codecs in the timeline is somehow wrong. That said, all the codecs are advancing at lightspeed? and coming from the cobwebbed world of 7, the idea of simply plopping red on the timeline kind of beggars my mind.

FCPX has highly intelligent adaptive workflows to manage this dichotomy, and you could argue, these are workflows more in tune with the inclinations of post inclined editors who like to feel brick pavement under their feet in codec terms.

On the other hand, FCPX has the most ridiculous timeline and audio handling I'm ever likely to see, so there's that.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 4:10:45 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "CS6, says the prole, feels like an utterly massive release, I mean even the way they just threw speedgrade in there?
I mean good god right? that is right in its infancy in the suite. I am genuinely near mad to get the suite working in my gaff.
It feels like the software equivalent of a childhood boxed millenium falcon."


Speedgrade looks amazing. It really does. It's excitng times.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "As you say: adobe are looking to drive through with disparate, native, highly compressed capture codecs that demand CPU at every stage.
Part of me, in my heart of hearts, cannot get rid of the catholic guilt that says that looking to perform with non-optimised camera codecs in the timeline is somehow wrong. That said, all the codecs are advancing at lightspeed? and coming from the cobwebbed world of 7, the idea of simply plopping red on the timeline kind of beggars my mind.

FCPX has highly intelligent adaptive workflows to manage this dichotomy, and you could argue, these are workflows more in tune with the inclinations of post inclined editors who like to feel brick pavement under their feet in codec terms. "


And this, right here, on a deep down philospophical level, is why Premiere is not FCP8. Thankfully.

Adobe has an entirely different philosophy. Entirely.

Adobe makes software to run on a wild variety of hardware and a few OSes. In that process, through all the things an NLE needs to do these days, compromises simply have to be made. Also, it seems, Adobe is striving to be as "open" as possible in the sense that you can throw whatever you want at it, in nearly any format/structure, and it will do it's best to work. Adobe has also built an optimized "engine" and that engine can use various sources of power. You, as user, are "rewarded" by having more power, as it's simply the way computing works. More computing/GPU power and efficiency = faster and more powerful. Simple. You can get the same work done on slower and cheaper, but it's slower. And cheaper. So there's that reward as well.

Apple doesn't work that way, hardly at all. They have built a different style of efficiencies and even more strict compromises. Avid has it's methods, as does Edius, and Autodesk.

Now, it's just a matter of choice on what you want to learn.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 12:02:43 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Adjusting this in real time simply does work at any resolution."

Does NOT work.

Sorry.


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 2:11:15 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Clear as mud, right?"

Hey, I appreciate the insight. I'm trying to come to some of the same understandings that Aindreas is.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 3:38:00 am

[Chris Harlan] "Hey, I appreciate the insight. I'm trying to come to some of the same understandings that Aindreas is."

openCL GPU support is new in Pr cs6.

It's baby steps.

You will hear over and over from people who have switched to windows and Pr (to an i7 type tower, so current MacBook Pro/iMac in a tower config) with cheaper Nvidia GPUs, that Pr screams.

It's proven , it's mature.

Pr has system requirements and there's also recommendations that you can find online. Most times, that recommend usually doesn't include Macs. They simply don't have many CUDA options. You will find the occasional Quadro 4000 Mac user, and they seem generally happy.

The new iMacs/MacBook Pros are really sweet computers, but they aren't powerhouses, and neither is the MacOS. It never has been. I've been trying to clamor that around these parts for a while now. Macs are not the fastest computers, all things considered, period. They are still nice computers, no question.

So, if you really want to stick with (Mac) OSX, your decisions are an older MacPro with a few "for real" CUDA cards, or newer and greener (in the experince sense) portable desktops. I, personally, am one of the people that's going to stick with OSX for as long as possible.

Then there's the Internet tea leaves, those bastions of hopes and dreams. Nvidia released new Lion based Cuda drivers. People are sticking "non Mac" supported pcie Cuda based cards in to MacPros and it sort of works. It's not highly recommended, but one could say its working better than ever. What does this mean? Where's it going? We (the royal we) still don't know for sure. One thing we do know, even though there's silence on new Mac hardware, we know it's not standing still. We (of the royal persuasion) can see the little development hints around here and there if you look hard enough, but there is no concrete foundation on which to build quite yet. So, if you need to buy now, the decision is a solid "maybe" of a Mac, to a solid "perhaps" on windows. Windows.

We are professionals. An OS switch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But do you want to do it?


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 7:13:27 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "openCL GPU support is new in Pr cs6.
"


Yeah, it ran real well on my laptop when I XMLed a project, so I'm guessing when it was buggy for me the evening before, it was because I was doing something odd with ProRES and had imported it improperly.


[Jeremy Garchow]"So, if you really want to stick with (Mac) OSX, your decisions are an older MacPro with a few "for real" CUDA cards, or newer and greener (in the experince sense) portable desktops"

I've got a GTX 285 in my 8 Core, so that should be worth something. I won't install till I get the full Suite, so I can't really test it out. But, I'm looking forward to it. I've upgraded from CS5, so I haven't really seen Mercury at its best, yet. I'm also looking forward to trying Media Composer/Symphony on the same machine. So far, I've just been using it on my laptop. I suppose I can always upgrade the 285 to a 4000, and double the RAM in my 8 Core, if I'm really smitten.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I, personally, am one of the people that's going to stick with OSX for as long as possible."

I go back and forth a lot. I liked my years in the Wintel world and was pretty much forced to MacVille, but now that I'm here...

[Jeremy Garchow] " An OS switch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But do you want to do it?"

I'm not sure I'd switch as much as add. Maybe get a PC and put Media Composer/Symphony on it. Then try CS6 via Cloud, and just see if I like it there. Of course, for me that's a big investment just to test the waters, so I'd need to be a lot closer to certain than I am now.


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Thomas Frank
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 3:03:42 pm

I am not going into the CUDA thing since we have 60% of our Mac Pro have it... but the comment about the OSX to be being a powerhouses. This is the most absurd thing I ever heard since the day I was introduced to the computer!
You aware the OSX is build on UNIX right which is a multitask whore, don't get me wrong Windows 7 is not bad (took them for ever to get descent OS... and NT was good) but there is a reason why Unix and Linux is still used today for Supercomputing.

By the



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 4:04:42 pm

[Thomas Frank] "I am not going into the CUDA thing since we have 60% of our Mac Pro have it... but the comment about the OSX to be being a powerhouses. This is the most absurd thing I ever heard since the day I was introduced to the computer!
You aware the OSX is build on UNIX right which is a multitask whore, don't get me wrong Windows 7 is not bad (took them for ever to get descent OS... and NT was good) but there is a reason why Unix and Linux is still used today for Supercomputing."


It's built on it, but it's not the same.

Don't get me wrong. I'm am going to stick with OSX for as long as possible.

There's more to an OS besides speed.

You can boot a Mac in to windows and using the same software, it runs "faster". It doesn't mean better or more convenient.

OSX isn't a slouch. It's very powerful.

But when doing speed tests with similar software, OSX doesn't run quite as fast.

I am comparing how NLEs run, not what servers need to do. There's big differences and there's no hard and fast rules.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 1:51:54 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I do nearly all of my serious malarky in AE, I just need to know that premiere can stand as a multi-format timeline without Nvidia or the two mac laptops currently sanctioned."

Aindreas, out of curiosity, what's keeping you on the Mac?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 11, 2012 at 9:45:37 pm

windows. to be blunt!

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 2:00:37 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "In my experience, there is a difference. It's not better or worse, you just have to adjust to how you probably worked in Premiere.
"


Actually, I appreciate both this and what you wrote above. I get where you are coming from because these kinds of differences would be reflected in my workflow, and this lets me start thinking about them.

Hey, have you gotten a crash where the video stops functioning in a frozen frame but nothing else seems to be altered or frozen? And then, if you push it, you end up with what seem to be blown-up bit-maped tools, sliders or buttons from the program in place of the video in the record and/or source monitor?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 2:39:09 am

[Chris Harlan] "Actually, I appreciate both this and what you wrote above. I get where you are coming from because these kinds of differences would be reflected in my workflow, and this lets me start thinking about them. "

We all learn from each other. I am super curious as to what people are going to think of cs6. The best part of all of this is that you know Adobe gives a shit about what happens to Pr. They've worked really hard on it.

[Chris Harlan] "Hey, have you gotten a crash where the video stops functioning in a frozen frame but nothing else seems to be altered or frozen? And then, if you push it, you end up with what seem to be blown-up bit-maped tools, sliders or buttons from the program in place of the video in the record and/or source monitor?"

I've had a few dings, but nothing like that.

I would suggest searching on how to trash your media cache files. You'll find some good reads.


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 2:44:28 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I've had a few dings, but nothing like that.

I would suggest searching on how to trash your media cache files. You'll find some good reads.
"


I'm going to that as soon as work slows a bit, and I get my copy of CS6.


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John Heagy
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 3:29:30 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Think if an export takes 30 minutes in Premiere. After export, a client changes their mind. You make the change, it could be another 30 min export.
Or you have to make another version, that's another 30 minute export.
Again, this is an over generalization, but this process takes seconds/minutes in 7. "



Every export is an encode and no ref movie export. Export is my biggest issue with Pr.

The biggest plus is the Ae like motion tools and key framing.

John


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David Lawrence
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 2:06:19 am

Great post, Jeremy. Really clear description of the I/O workflow differences.

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's not hard or impossible, I just feel that Pr CS6 shouldn't be called "FCP8" as it takes away from the Pr philosophy of the media path.

QuickTime handles a lot of things that are open to the user on Premiere. There's pros and cons to both. "


[Jeremy Garchow] "Pr and FCP7 feel more similar, but really they aren't. "

Where I'm coming from (and what I hear when Oliver talks about not having to relearn how to edit) is more about the user experience design of the Premiere Pro 6 timeline.

It's true all track-based NLEs share certain common features, but the details of how they operate are actually a pretty big deal in terms of how they feel in use.

Avid MC feels really different than FCP7. Premiere Pro 5.5 felt different then both, though it was sorta like FCP7. But in PP6 the new timeline UI changes really make it feel like Final Cut Pro with some added new features.

I'm talking strictly about the timeline interactions themselves - the way you work the mouse or the keyboard, the kinds of editorial strategies and methods you might approach an edit from. Most of the editorial tools and the flexibility you expect is there and works in exactly the same way. Or sometimes better. Most of the UI differences are minor and trivial to adjust to.

For anyone thinking about changing platforms, this basic editorial interaction design is a very big deal. I think this why you hear folks compare PP6 to the mythical Final Cut Pro 8.

I agree the workflow as a whole has to be factored in and in that regard it's very different. But actual cutting feels very much the same.

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Bill Davis
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 2:37:16 am

[David Lawrence] "For anyone thinking about changing platforms, this basic editorial interaction design is a very big deal. I think this why you hear folks compare PP6 to the mythical Final Cut Pro 8.

I agree the workflow as a whole has to be factored in and in that regard it's very different. But actual cutting feels very much the same."


David,

If your focus needs to be on something that "cuts similarly" to Legacy, then I truly hope you've made a good choice.

Having just been through what turned out to be a more complex than I ever imagined transition to X from Legacy - with so much fundamental stuff to unlearn and re-learn - looking back, the point doesn't appear to me to be the difficulty of the transition, but whether or not I was going to be happy with where I ended up.

Many here know I am very happy with X, and that many others saw difficulties and things they didn't like or obstacles that they felt were insurmountable - and decided to take a different route. That's life. But being forced to leave the place you're in usually means you'll end up in a place that's either better, or worse.

I hope your path leads to something really good for you.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Lawrence
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 4:14:37 am

Thank you, Bill. Very much appreciate the sentiment and wish you the best with your path as well. It's been an insanely disruptive year but all things considered, looks like it's turning out well for everyone. Nice to know there's more choice and possibility than ever. I feel good about the opportunities. Interesting times, indeed.

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art~media~design~research
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Steve Connor
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 8:05:42 am

[David Lawrence] "It's been an insanely disruptive year but all things considered, looks like it's turning out well for everyone. Nice to know there's more choice and possibility than ever. I feel good about the opportunities. Interesting times, indeed.
"


Well said, I'm very happy with the tools I have in the box now.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 2:48:23 am

[David Lawrence] "I'm talking strictly about the timeline interactions themselves - the way you work the mouse or the keyboard, the kinds of editorial strategies and methods you might approach an edit from. Most of the editorial tools and the flexibility you expect is there and works in exactly the same way. Or sometimes better. Most of the UI differences are minor and trivial to adjust to."

That's certainly what I got with my brief few hours last night. I felt very much at home. Its going to be a fun summer.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 3:13:31 am

[David Lawrence] "Where I'm coming from (and what I hear when Oliver talks about not having to relearn how to edit) is more about the user experience design of the Premiere Pro 6 timeline.

It's true all track-based NLEs share certain common features, but the details of how they operate are actually a pretty big deal in terms of how they feel in use.

Avid MC feels really different than FCP7. Premiere Pro 5.5 felt different then both, though it was sorta like FCP7. But in PP6 the new timeline UI changes really make it feel like Final Cut Pro with some added new features."


I agree. Adobe took the user feedback to heart about the interface. They improved it, simplified it if you will, and also left a ton of control.

While the timeline feels familiar, and it's not a total re-think, it's operates a bit differently.

[David Lawrence] "I'm talking strictly about the timeline interactions themselves - the way you work the mouse or the keyboard, the kinds of editorial strategies and methods you might approach an edit from. Most of the editorial tools and the flexibility you expect is there and works in exactly the same way. Or sometimes better. Most of the UI differences are minor and trivial to adjust to."

Sure. There's some similarities, there's also some differences. Minor and trivial is subjective.

For instance, I make lots and lots of versions per day. Export is a big deal to me, it might not be for some.

Remember, you are talking to one of those dork bags that actually doesn't mind the direction of fcpx. PPro is absolutely more powerful in it's usability (and familiarity), but in terms of UI, I really don't mind learning new ones. I don't mind new approaches to things, and I don't mind if I have to adjust. It's part of the process and helps makes decisions, even in my editing.

[David Lawrence] "For anyone thinking about changing platforms, this basic editorial interaction design is a very big deal. I think this why you hear folks compare PP6 to the mythical Final Cut Pro 8.

I agree the workflow as a whole has to be factored in and in that regard it's very different. But actual cutting feels very much the same."


Cutting does feel very similar, yes. You're right. Switch to fcp7 hotkeys, and you're up and running pretty quickly, i/o f10, blade, etc, but to me that's just the surface.


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David Lawrence
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 3:55:25 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "For instance, I make lots and lots of versions per day. Export is a big deal to me, it might not be for some."

I've had projects like that and I do take that ability for granted. So yes, this will take some major rethinking in PP.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Remember, you are talking to one of those dork bags that actually doesn't mind the direction of fcpx. PPro is absolutely more powerful in it's usability (and familiarity), but in terms of UI, I really don't mind learning new ones. I don't mind new approaches to things, and I don't mind if I have to adjust. It's part of the process and helps makes decisions, even in my editing."

LOL, maybe we're all dorks, we just dork out on different things. I like learning new UI too, and you can be sure I've been doing that a lot the past week. But the difference is that I feel like I'm moving forward.

I do like parts of FCPX. My main gripe with the magnetic timeline is with what I see as unnecessary lack of control, and frustrating inconsistencies and limitations within its own conceptual UI model. Plus it runs like a dog on the exact same machine that PP6 can cut RED 4K on. What's up with that? I'm sure it'll improve but I'm not willing to wait out or work around the growing pains. I am curious and interested and will keep an eye on it though. I'm super curious how they'll fix multi-track audio, for example.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Cutting does feel very similar, yes. You're right. Switch to fcp7 hotkeys, and you're up and running pretty quickly, i/o f10, blade, etc, but to me that's just the surface."

I hear ya. I guess for me, that surface and its UI mechanics are the instrument itself. With so many choices, it's gonna be an interesting Summer for everyone.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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David Lawrence
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 12:39:19 am

[Oliver Peters] "I don't think it's a question of advantage, but rather of how the NLE makes you work - especially in the timeline. "

Agreed. There's also the question of safety and stability. Seeing the little autosave dialog every few minutes or being able to hit Save or Save As at any time is more than reassuring; I consider it absolute must for any client work.

Also, something about the program just feels more stable to me than FCPX. I can make FCPX grind to a halt just by looking at the wrong way. But the same laptop and same media flys in PP6. I have no idea what's going on under the hood but it's very different and feels much more solid.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Tim Wilson
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 3:05:10 am

[Oliver Peters] "It certainly should never be an "either-or" scenario. However, there seem to be three models shaping up for many.....

2. The everything-in-one-app. That's largely the Avid approach, especially with Symphony. Consider that with Symphony, you get BCC8, AvidFX and quite a few audio plug-ins - all of which run inside the NLE interface.


Boris Continnum Complete doesn't get mentioned often enough in the Symphony crossgrade. By itself, BCC runs $1595, and for all that it offers, a very good deal...but it's like, "We'll take $600 off Boris Continuum Complete and throw in Avid Symphony for free." A really truly astounding deal

Admittedly a bit prejudiced having worked at Boris FX (but not on BCC)...but also at Avid, having also helped put together the suite of tools named Studio the year before Apple STOLE THE NAME...LOL, I don't agree at all that it's an everything in one app. In one box, yes, and quite a compelling combination of tools...but not all in one.

To me, that title goes to Smoke. It's especially interesting to me that, among its many other features, Smoke can import FCPX as well as FCP 7 projects, which offers a way to redeem both a possibly deep heritage in Legacy, as well as much as a year of experimentation. :-) And I think that Premiere/After Effects also comes a lot closer. Anybody who uses After Effects really owes it to themselves to dig deep into a Premiere trial, ESPECIALLY if you've tried Premiere before and been unimpressed. You'll be impressed this time.

But here's the thing. I understand why FCP blowing up in some people's faces might create a "never put all your eggs in one basket again" outlook, but the fact is that there are huge advantages to an all-in approach. Most clients really don't care, and spending weeks or months learning something that adds a nice flavor to your work now and again seems less important to me than actually getting the work done.

Avid folks pioneered the "stick with the old version until you really REALLY have to move." By the time I left Avid in 2006, I still knew people working with NuBus machines on OS 9. I hear that some of those folks are still around. In nearly every case I encountered, it wasn't a matter of being an old dog not wanting to learn new tricks. Many of those people admired, sometimes outright envied FCP...but there was not an extra penny to be made by switching, so why put themselves through that? It's about being a dog who doesn't create unnecessary hassles when something works.

FCP 7 will be usable until a new camera format requires a change...but otherwise, the same people who have been all-in with FCP can follow in their Avid brethren's footsteps and continue to be all-in with FCP for many years, doing what they've been doing up until this point and NOT learning other NLEs for the sake of learning them.

Not that there aren't good reasons to switch. I think there are, and there are compelling alternatives. I also think that when people look at those alternatives, they will in many cases realize that FCP was NEVER the best choice for them. They've been waiting for years for features that have been elsewhere for years. They would have been better off somewhere else all along.

On that level, it's insane not to take the Symphony deal, and most people should be at least subscribing to (if not buying) CS6 anyway. Dipping a toe into these, and Smoke, to explore is fine, and fun...and potentially revelatory, even career-changing if you find a new home....

...but whether the choice is to stay or go, I think that the "learn everything" approach, to "put everything you can into the toolbox," actually forces a lot more untenable compromises than the "commit to one and dig deep" approach does.

Me, I AM an old dog, but I felt this way even when I was YOUR age. LOL

See? I've learned new tricks....like smilies and LOL....

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Lou Borella
MacPro Petition
on May 9, 2012 at 5:05:51 am

Hello Everyone

I've just started a new Facebook page asking Apple about the state of the MacPro. I know its a long shot but I'm hoping that I can get enough people to become a fan of the page, forcing Apple to make a statement on the status of MacPro lineup.

I've sent this link to the editors of all the popular Apple rumor and tech sites.
I've also had a conversation with Larry Jordan about this and I'm hoping that he will post the link on his blog.
I've also spoken with Rob at BareFeats.

Here is the address:

https://www.facebook.com/MacProsPlease

Spread the word!!!
I'm hoping this goes viral!!!

Thanks
Lou Borella



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Thomas Frank
Re: MacPro Petition
on May 9, 2012 at 9:18:08 am

Well since there was allot complains that FCPX has Skimming from iMovie and it makes it unprofessional I was going to jump to CS6. Wait it also has Skimming now. Dammit!!!

I guess I have to wait for LightWorks lol

P.S. I also noticed that the default layout reminds me allot of the Final Cut Pro 7 layout Apples marketing images used for there Laptops.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Skimming/Hover Scrub
on May 9, 2012 at 1:37:57 pm

[Thomas Frank] "Well since there was allot complains that FCPX has Skimming from iMovie and it makes it unprofessional I was going to jump to CS6. Wait it also has Skimming now."

Skimming was one of my favorite features in FCPX, and I'm glad to see hover scrub in Pr. Smoke has always had skimmable thumbnails (though it requires a click and drag, not just hover).

Skimming may take a little getting used to, but both FCPX and Pr allow the user to toggle the feature, so the "skimming is unprofessional" argument was really pretty weak when it was originally levied against FCPX, and I don't think there's anyone left in the room who actually feels otherwise.

That toggle which both Apple and Adobe saw fit to include was really, really important. Using mouse hover for major functionality, rather than limiting its use to simple visual feedback about the interface itself, is a really big departure from just about everyone's UI standards. Think about it -- what other actions can you accomplish with a mouse, but without a mouse button?

While we're on the subject of skimming and hover scrub, I think that the naming of these features really exhibits the difference in mindset between Apple and Adobe.

"Skimming" is a simplified, accessible name which gives the gist of the feature without any other detail, while "hover scrub" combines two technical terms to describe precisely what the feature does and how to use it. It's interesting to see both companies executing their philosophies, even in relatively minor details like this.


[Thomas Frank] "P.S. I also noticed that the default layout reminds me allot of the Final Cut Pro 7 layout Apples marketing images used for there Laptops."

It's an interesting layout -- really puts your footage and the current cut front and center by maximizing the source and program windows. The classic FCP default layout maximized the timeline at the expense of viewer and canvas. Project/bin windows in each are roughly comparable.

One of the things I like best about Pr and Ae is the Adobe windowing environment. Docking panels rock (but floating windows is still an option if you are so inclined), and everything is highly customizable.

Personally, I find that the bin window in the default view is usually too small to use with hover scrub in icon view, so here's one of my favorite Pr/Ae shortcuts -- the grave key (`), immediately next to the 1 on the US keyboard, and often mistakenly called the tilde key. Press it once and it will maximize the panel under the cursor (hiding all other panels); press it again and it will restore all panels to their previous sizes and locations.

This is perfect for bouncing back and forth between reviewing footage (with icon view and hover scrub) and actually cutting it.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Skimming/Hover Scrub
on May 9, 2012 at 2:21:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "so here's one of my favorite Pr/Ae shortcuts -- the grave key (`), immediately next to the 1 on the US keyboard, and often mistakenly called the tilde key. Press it once and it will maximize the panel under the cursor (hiding all other panels); press it again and it will restore all panels to their previous sizes and locations.
"


Score!


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Andy Field
Re: Skimming/Hover Scrub
on May 9, 2012 at 3:02:46 pm

`Key - Maximize current Frame --

Great shortcut - but if you have the FINAL CUT PRO 7 keyboard shortcuts chosen as your default you must use SHIFT plus the ` (key next to the number 1 on your keyboard) to toggle full frame on and off of the window you are working in

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Thomas Frank
Re: Skimming/Hover Scrub
on May 9, 2012 at 4:18:28 pm

[Walter Soyka] "While we're on the subject of skimming and hover scrub, I think that the naming of these features really exhibits the difference in mindset between Apple and Adobe. "

Final Cut Pro 7 and earlier had this option also... but for some reason in FCPX its not Pro.

[Walter Soyka] ""Skimming" is a simplified, accessible name which gives the gist of the feature without any other detail, while "hover scrub" combines two technical terms to describe precisely what the feature does and how to use it. It's interesting to see both companies executing their philosophies, even in relatively minor details like this."

I would say the simplified way is the better way, but does this really separate what is pro or not or am I just missing the point that you are just finding the terminology interesting?

Yeah the shortcut does rock for that setup. I really dig it also!



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Walter Soyka
Re: Skimming/Hover Scrub
on May 9, 2012 at 4:47:56 pm

[Thomas Frank] "Final Cut Pro 7 and earlier had this option also... but for some reason in FCPX its not Pro."

Thomas, I think you're arguing with people who have left the room. I don't think anyone still here thinks that skimming is unprofessional.

After learning FCPX, losing the skimmer was probably the most painful part of jumping back to FCP7 for me. The alt-click and drag picon approach never really felt right.


[Thomas Frank] "I would say the simplified way is the better way, but does this really separate what is pro or not or am I just missing the point that you are just finding the terminology interesting?"

Yeah, I was just talking about how the differences in terminology for a similar feature reveal the two developers' underlying differences in design philosophy.

I rather like that "hover scrub" tells you exactly what the feature does and exactly how to use it. I'm very comfortable with Adobe making the baseline assumption that I know a thing or two about what I'm doing.

Speaking now in the abstract, I will often choose a more complicated tool for more flexibility, power, or nuance, but this is always a balancing act. Simplicity is good until something is oversimplified and reduces benefits, and complexity is acceptable until something is overcomplicated for the benefits it offers.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 7:04:19 pm

[Tim Wilson] "FCP 7 will be usable until a new camera format requires a change..."

I'm not sure I agree. FCP 7 pretty much hit the wall with high data rate ProRes. If you attempt to do a big session with lots of ProRes4444 or even ProRes mixed with Canon XF codecs you quickly run out of gas ("out-of-memory" errors) and crash a lot. Mixed codec timelines get very glitchy when part of the timeline is rendered and part unrendered. So yes, as an offline edit tool, it still works, but it's becoming increasing a PITA to deal with when they are better options available.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 7:52:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not sure I agree."

I don't disagree with your disagreement. I was trying to be charitable. :-)

Talking to one COW who'll be writing about it for us soon, he said that he found FCPX unusable for his workflow, he now finds FCP 7 unusable for his sanity. He was forced to realize how unhappy he'd been with 7, especially on the performance front and how "un-modern" (his word) it has felt, for a very long time.

That's the thing I think gets overlooked in the "What's the hurry? X hasn't even been out for a year." Well, given what a minor release 7 was three years ago, and that the big thing in 6 was ProRes, you have to go back 5 years since there was a major change in the editing experience (multicam). It hasn't been a "modern" NLE for a long time.

Anyway, point also taken re: Smoke...but as much as I love (and HIGHLY RECOMMEND) Media Composer and especially Symphony w/Boris Continuum Complete (you kinda hafta buy that just on principal, don't you?), they're not all in one solutions.

Even though they're part of a suite, Premiere Pro/AE might be closer to what most people want from a single integrated product anyway.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Jim Giberti
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 8:37:19 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Talking to one COW who'll be writing about it for us soon, he said that he found FCPX unusable for his workflow, he now finds FCP 7 unusable for his sanity. He was forced to realize how unhappy he'd been with 7, especially on the performance front and how "un-modern" (his word) it has felt, for a very long time."

I've had to spend a good deal of time going back and forth between FCP7 and FCPX on a number of projects recently.

I found FCP7 to be as stable and stalwart as ever but un-modern as well. Apple introduced some very fast and intuitive alternatives in X - I think you could honestly say it's an evolution in many regards. As a creative director that also floats between a Digital Performer studio and traditional and web design studios, I was increasingly tired of how tired FCP was feeling in comparison to our other tools.

In many ways X is the tool I was hoping for. In many ways it isn't.

Here's what I can say definitively. After a few projects in FCP7 the last month, I hopped over and got 7toX, converted all relevant FCP7 projects into XML files and haven't looked back.

X is simply a better over all environment than 7 on most levels, in my experience.
It's a shame that they've let their user base dangle while waiting for basic industry features, but as it is now, warts and all, we can do a lot more a lot faster than in 7.


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 10:43:36 pm

[Tim Wilson] "but as much as I love (and HIGHLY RECOMMEND) Media Composer and especially Symphony w/Boris Continuum Complete (you kinda hafta buy that just on principal, don't you?), they're not all in one solutions. "

Although that's completely true, the ironic fact is that I've been able to do a lot more complex compositing in MC and Symphony than I've ever done in AE, Motion or other tools. Heck, I've done composites in the original MC 7.2 for a theme park show that I couldn't do in Illusion (Avid's flagship effects tool of the day) - and that's been seen by probably well over 100 million folks since 2000. As goofy as Avid's nesting is, once you get comfortable with things like animatte, you can actually do some very intricate things. Would I recommend it over Smoke or DS as a true finishing tool? - No. But, for the editor who wants to do a lot inside one tool without ever leaving that one interface, it's pretty hard to beat for what you can actually accomplish. Especially for $1K (cross grade until 6/15).

That being said, the Premiere Pro/AE/SpeedGrade combo is likely going to compete quite well against Smoke in the market. At least that's my bet.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 7:05:59 pm

[Tim Wilson] "To me, that title goes to Smoke. It's especially interesting to me that, among its many other features, Smoke can import FCPX as well as FCP 7 projects, "

PS: I don't count Smoke as a good all-in-one tool, because you really wouldn't start the offline edit of a big job in it. It's a finishing tool best paired with something else. In that sense, DS would better fit your definition.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 10, 2012 at 12:31:15 am

[Oliver Peters] "PS: I don't count Smoke as a good all-in-one tool, because you really wouldn't start the offline edit of a big job in it. It's a finishing tool best paired with something else. In that sense, DS would better fit your definition.
"


I haven't seen the new tools yet, but that's sort of how I'm expecting it to be: a fast, rough cut in Media Composer, and then polish and pizazz in Smoke.


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Mike Molenda
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 1:10:18 pm

They EOLed OnLocation! Adobe doesn't care about their pro users, they're just interested in moving copies of Acrobat Reader!

All kidding aside, I started using Premiere CS4/CS5 alongside FCP at my day job about a year ago. Back then, I referred to it as Final Cut's homely cousin. But then she grew up to be hot! After the FCPX release, I started integrating CS5.5 alongside FCP in freelance work, and now I find myself starting up projects in Premiere far more frequently than in FCP. So the upgrade for me was kind of a no-brainer, and I am eagerly awaiting my discs in the mail.


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Jim Giberti
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 7:35:42 pm

I've only spent a little time in PP6 but we've been doing a ton (for a boutique shop) of fairly complex work in X since the 1.0.4 update and I at least owe Apple a little nod.

When I get a break I'm going to write something on our recent round of work in X and Motion 5, but for now I'll say that PP6 looks nice but not enough to make me move from X.

I'm very anxious to see Apple's promised audio upgrade.
If they give the color board the simple attention it needs in functionality and restore round-tripping to Motion, they could have a very nice, complete tool box for many/most projects that we and others will supplement as needed with MB, Resolve and DAWs.


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 7:50:26 pm

[Jim Giberti] "we've been doing a ton (for a boutique shop) of fairly complex work in X since the 1.0.4 update"

So 1.0.4 has given you the stability you need? No more nightmares? (touch wood)


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Jim Giberti
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 8:02:56 pm

[Chris Harlan] "So 1.0.4 has given you the stability you need? No more nightmares? (touch wood)
"


Overall I think the stability issues came directly from X's lack of proper memory management and bloat - and an obvious issue with outside graphics that, when combined with the former issues, induced corrupted projects and media
Once we became scrupulous about managing this it's been good.

I haven't had enough sample time to say anything definitively, but I noticed greater speed and fluidity immediately when moving in and out of and copying between the Project Browser. Enough so that I'm seeing the Project Browser as a very useable approach to working between multiple projects.

I can honestly say I was delighted at how fast I was able to output several adaptations of a campaign yesterday. As I evolve with it I find a lot of things that it's very good at. I just hope they get a fire under their collective asses on the X team and realize that they need to catch up on the stuff that's not fluid or acceptably evolved by comparison.


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Chris Harlan
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 8:24:00 pm

[Jim Giberti] "I can honestly say I was delighted at how fast I was able to output several adaptations of a campaign yesterday. "

Cool, man. X is still theoretically on my Summer list, buts its moved a notch or two down. I'm still interested, though.


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Jim Giberti
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 8:40:30 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Cool, man. X is still theoretically on my Summer list, buts its moved a notch or two down. I'm still interested, though.
"


It could give you something to do, on break with the trees that will never be clients.

It's a report I'd love to hear - you, X, and a long weekend in the woods.


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Thomas Frank
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 8:45:52 pm

Not sure why everybody is still beating up FCPX anyway it has received everything that was missing (from all the b1tchen) at launch. And there is more coming (road map anybody)
But you know maybe you have really good to get a use out of it. lol



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Michael Gissing
Re: CS6 is released - so what now?
on May 9, 2012 at 10:49:16 pm

Thomas, I know you are being amusingly confrontational and I won't bite on the last sentence, but to say that X has everything back in from the bitchin list is just plain wrong. Don't forget there are things on that list that will never go back in like tape in/out support.

I hope we are past the silly arguments and it seems the recent discussions of the pros and cons of CS6 show that this forum has moved into a nice groove of good feedback on features and capabilities as well as personal preferences.


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