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It's business... not personal

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Mark Raudonis
It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:05:30 am

To continue the metaphor...

If the pro features we all know should be there are there in six months, I'll know that I have a partner.

Mark

PS. We all know what Michael did!!!



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John Pale
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:11:59 am

[Mark Raudonis] "PS. We all know what Michael did!!!"

Hmmm. The question is...who is Michael Corleone? If Michael is Steve Jobs, then the heads of Adobe and Avid might be sweating...


My final offer is: nothing. No multicam. No XML. No Plug ins. And I would appreciate it if you downloaded each and every copy with your personal Apple ID.


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Andrew Richards
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:14:14 am

WOW!

The guy with one of the largest commercial FCP shops in the world isn't jumping off any bridges!

Maybe the Chicken Littles around here could learn something from him...


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Tom Daigon
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:18:52 am

He knew this was coming quite a while ago so Im sure some contingency plans were made. No need to jump off a bridge when you have a backup plan.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Andrew Richards
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:25:02 am

[Tom Daigon] "He knew this was coming quite a while ago so Im sure some contingency plans were made. No need to jump off a bridge when you have a backup plan."

And how are you any different? Mark may have had early access to FCPX in the private beta, but what advantage does that give him planning what to do next?

None.

Every pro making a living on FCP is in the same boat; either FCPX is ready for them to use today or it isn't, and they can wait for it to get there or they can say "screw it" and jump to another platform.

The sky didn't fall today. No one is forcing any FCP7 users to adopt FCPX. You'd think Apple had automatically invalidated all the FCP7 licenses over the Internet the way people are reacting around here...


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Chris Conlee
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:58:38 am

Actually, by ceasing to offer new seats of FCP 7, they in effect ARE forcing expanding businesses to make a choice. Bad move on their part.

Chris


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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:18:00 am

[Mark Raudonis] "If the pro features we all know should be there are there in six months, I'll know that I have a partner.


I think thats a very fair & practical call. 6 months is a good enough window for apple to show its seriousness & users to wait before they go their separate ways.

Sohrab

2.66 GHz 8-core, ATI Radeon HD 4870,
FCS 3, AJA Kona Lhi



"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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David Burch
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:21:36 am

Agreed. If, however, six months go by and still no word from Apple, I'm going to seriously start looking at Avid for the first time.


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Tom Daigon
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:22:57 am

sure lets wait 6 months...no maybe 9 months seems fair... but in 12 months we are sure to get what we need...then again 15...

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Jamie Franklin
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:33:15 am

It's interesting reading the backlash to the backlash...

"The sky isn't falling"

"The Haters"

"Jump off a bridge chicken littles!!"

A consistent theme on every forum. People are sharing experiences, frustration (especially those that paid for something that was advertised as something else) and have justifiable criticisms, especially when Apple is keeping the future of this program a mystery....

It doesn't have xml support..."oh, you're just a hater!"

please.


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Andrew Richards
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:36:39 am

[Tom Daigon] "sure lets wait 6 months...no maybe 9 months seems fair... but in 12 months we are sure to get what we need...then again 15..."

Sorry, not following. You absolutely MUST upgrade your editing software NOW?

All I'm saying is everyone needs to judge for himself what the right path forward is. FCPX is brand new, v1.0, not even 24 hours on the market. It is also probably just as big a leap from FCP7 as Premiere Pro or Media Composer would be. If today is all you needed to see to feel justified in switching to Adobe or Avid for your NLE, then by all means do what you need to do.

If FCPX hasn't seen a few incremental updates over the next several months, I'll be disappointed. I'm not prepared to write it off as a failure before it is a day old.


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Tom Daigon
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:43:38 am

"It is also probably just as big a leap from FCP7 as Premiere Pro or Media Composer would be."

Andrew, unfortunately this is a good indication of your limited experience with other editing software. From FCP 7 to PPCS5 is like falling off a log. The keyboard can be mapped exactly the same and the GUI uses the same concepts with lots more enhancements for productivity.
We all have difference projects, clients and technical requirements. If yours is such that its not an issue now or in the future, by all means tough it out. After 30 years of editing I find following my gut instinct is the way to avoid disasters and make my clients happy with video I am proud of. Each to their own.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Andrew Richards
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:08:28 am

[Tom Daigon] "Andrew, unfortunately this is a good indication of your limited experience with other editing software. From FCP 7 to PPCS5 is like falling off a log. The keyboard can be mapped exactly the same and the GUI uses the same concepts with lots more enhancements for productivity. "

Fair enough, the leap to PPCS5 isn't that far (I've dabbled in it a little, but never saw the need to immerse). But certainly the leap from FCP7 to MC5 is significant enough to give one pause. The point is that FCPX is a pivot point for anyone who has been earning a living on FCP up to now.

[Tom Daigon] "We all have difference projects, clients and technical requirements. If yours is such that its not an issue now or in the future, by all means tough it out. After 30 years of editing I find following my gut instinct is the way to avoid disasters and make my clients happy with video I am proud of. Each to their own."

Tough what out? I still fail to see why continuing to use FCP7 is such a nonstarter. If FCPX doesn't suit you today, don't buy it. If it never suits you, never buy it. If FCP7 hasn't suited you for the last 12 months, why haven't you already abandoned it for PPCS5 or MC5?

This whole thread is about not taking the feature set of FCPX as a personal insult from Apple.

It's business. It isn't personal. If you don't like it, don't buy it.


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Tom Daigon
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 7:04:24 am

To stay competitive in this harsh economic time its necessary to maximize the effectiveness of your tools. Using a hand drill (FCP7) when other are using a power drill (Avid, PP) makes your slower in finishing a project. Take native timelines as an example of this analogy. Transcoding is going the way of the horse and buggy, but FCP 7 is still beating that dead horse. You need to innovate and advance with the times and technology . Staying with FCP 7 really is not an option for many professional editors.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Jeff Bernstein
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:37:37 am

There is a lot of focus on those ho already have FCP7. Just don't upgrade. Fine. But happen to thbose folks that already have a couple of seats of FCP7, work on a SAN, need those features in FCP7 that are missing in FCPX AND need to add more licenses?


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Nate Weaver
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:40:07 am

Buy a damn copy of FCS3 on Ebay. Sheesh.

Nate Weaver
Director/D.P., Los Angeles
http://www.nateweaver.net


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Andrew Richards
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:41:21 am

[Jeff Bernstein] "There is a lot of focus on those ho already have FCP7. Just don't upgrade. Fine. But happen to thbose folks that already have a couple of seats of FCP7, work on a SAN, need those features in FCP7 that are missing in FCPX AND need to add more licenses?"

I saw a copy for sale at B&H today. I bet they have a whole pallet of them in the warehouse.


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Chris Kenny
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:57:42 am

[Jeff Bernstein] "There is a lot of focus on those ho already have FCP7. Just don't upgrade. Fine. But happen to thbose folks that already have a couple of seats of FCP7, work on a SAN, need those features in FCP7 that are missing in FCPX AND need to add more licenses?"

Even though it's no longer for sale from Apple, software products, with the cost of production being so low, tend to ship a lot of units into the channel, and they'll probably be kicking around and generally available for quite some time. Particularly since FCP X actually is a suitable replacement for FCP 7 for some users, and from a licensing perspective FCP X is not an upgrade to Final Cut Studio 3, so those users are now, as far as I can tell, perfectly free to sell off their copies of FCS 3.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Martin Curtis
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:08:42 am

I'm just seven hours old
truly beautiful to behold.
And somebody should be told.
My feature set hasn't been controlled.

Now the only thing I've come to trust
Is an app store rush of lust
Steve tints my world - keeps me
Safe from my trouble and pain.


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Chris Conlee
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 6:02:27 am

That's MY point exactly. Bad move on Apple's part. In essence they ARE forcing people's hands at this early date.

Chris


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Morten Carlsen
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 22, 2011 at 10:30:13 am

Quote "I think thats a very fair & practical call. 6 months is a good enough window for apple to show its seriousness & users to wait before they go their separate ways. "

This is sounding like the Logic Pro users back in the day as Apple released Logic Pro 8. They were all angry that the app did not compliment the professionals and everyone felt that Logic Pro was targeted at consumers.

Then rumors started circling that in 6 months Apple would provide those updates/upgrades to Logic 8 and for a while everything was quiet.

6 months later we all realized that this wasn't going to happen. And it never did.

To believe that Apple is going to turn FCP X into a professional's dream-app - is but wishful thinking. It aint going to happen.

Ask yourself: Apple has been working on this new app for a long time. THen they release FCPx. without all those pro-features, with a notion of a 6 months later release for those features. No way, if those features had been planned, they would have been there by THIS release.

Sure, they will add a few dire features to keep the horde on ice. However, this app is NOT aimed at professionals and probably was NOT intended that way !!!

Personally, I think it is a nice app. And a game changer, indeed, for iMovie users.


What I love the most is this: FCP X now had Background rendering... Everybody be like "Yeahhhh" --- I'm like, well - whether background oR foreground rendering - IT IS STILL RENDERING...

Premiere Pro with a $270 graphic card doesn't need to render AT ALL... Think about that !

Be that as it may, I am a happy camper using PPRO & AE workflow and I am ALWAYS going to BET on the company making their revenue off of software rather than the company building software on the side....


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John Davidson
X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:44:39 am

We just turned around a small emergency project this evening that paid for Final Cut Pro X three times over. We exclusively used X and nothing else. If it's all about business, any program that pays for itself on the first day is a winner, IMHO.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Craig Seeman
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 4:47:37 am

Hmm, it's either really intuitive or you blew through the manual and/or the tutorials being sold in record time.

If you've got a good story, Apple's going to be featuring it.



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Andrew Kimery
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:01:55 am

Even if they come in 6 months or so I'll know I'm the mistress and not the main squeeze. I'm not sure how I feel about begging for table scraps that may or may not come...



How's that for mixing some metaphors?!


-Andrew

3.2GHz 8-core, FCP 6.0.4, 10.5.5
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (6.8.1)



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Matt Callac
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:04:16 am

[John Davidson] "We just turned around a small emergency project this evening that paid for Final Cut Pro X three times over. We exclusively used X and nothing else. If it's all about business, any program that pays for itself on the first day is a winner, IMHO."

I think this makes you the official winner for the day. And here I was thinking Chris Kenny was the Winner seeing as he's been the voice of reason all day.

-mattyc


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Al Bergstein
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:11:51 am

John, would be interested in hearing why FCPX paid for itself today. If you mean that you didn't need to transcode, sheesh, those of us using other NLE's along with FCP have had that luxury for months now. If there's something more interesting than that in your post, please enlighten us.

With what little I've read so far, mainly Gary Adcocks' very partial first part of a review, it's clear that I'm going to stay put for now, and let Apple prove that it's really going to bring out a viable option to what I already have. Some of the workflow changes are very nice, but to give up what I've already built for those would mean that I would have to seriously consider Adobe instead.

This board trashed me a while ago, along with others, for even questioning whether Apple was rolling out the right information at the WWDC. Now, Gary's post clearly states that we were right in asking those questions. He states that FCP 3rd party devs were shunned at WWDC. From the lack of reports, I assumed as much.

I don't want to be an apologist for Apple, nor do I want to be a blind fanboy. I am a video producer and an editor, FCP is a tool, and though while not at the level of a Gary or other top flight pro, I have considerable investment in Apple, given my business volume and today's release did nothing to make me want to further that investment. I am willing and waiting to be convinced otherwise. In the meantime, I am not investing one more dime in Apple technology.

Alf


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John Davidson
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 6:08:53 am

It paid for itself not because it parted the Red Sea, but because it was used in a professional environment to complete a project, albeit small.

Here's the case study, if you will...

Movie Studio 'X" called at 6pm asking if we could cut together 18 clips of fans of their studio doing funny things with their logo to show at a board meeting for fun. As we had been experimenting with X all day, when we opened FCP7 it seemed weird - so we took a chance and imported the 18 .mp4 clips into X. Because we were new to it, it was a bit unwieldy, however this was not a 20 layer project so it worked.
After we cut the piece to about :60, we adjusted and retimed the whole thing a few times. We also used the 'fix audio' (I forget the exact name) setting across all the clips to level them out. During the edit we really enjoyed the compound clipping to keep everything neat. We used fade to color and dissolve transitions throughout. Many of our quick keys (shift + , and . for moving 1 to 5 frames) came across from FCP7, which was nice.

We submitted to our client who was at dinner. We used the 'share' email setting, which turned the clip into a very night looking 2.3 meg file precomposed in an email, which was also viewable on the iPhone.

The client responded that it was just what he wanted, we then use the share/dvd/hard drive setting to create an .img file, which when opened contained the video/audio ts folders. We also created an H264 Quicktime using the 'movie export' generic setting under 'share.' Dragged the qt's over the YouSendIt icon in the dock, entered the clients email address, clicked 'send'. Done.

Not everything was perfect. We use 2 monitors, and during testing earlier today the program froze while video was fullscreen in monitor 2. When we tried to open X up again, it was stuck on 'loading window layout' or something like that. The solution - keep everything in 1 monitor for now. It's how X wants it.

To get back in, selecting the username/library/app support prefs files and deleting didn't work. You have to delete the folders too. It opened back up - back in business.

We are also not loading AJA drivers until they are out of Beta. My editor had to hot-wire the audio out of the Mac Pro stereo port into the Mackie mixer since X doesn't see the Kona card.

The project did not need any mixing, so we rode the levels in FCP (normally we would use FinalPlug by WaveArts). The audio meters are cool, too. The editing experience began to feel more natural by the end - to the point where we would collapse compound clips and expand them - each time we would catch ourselves grunting with approval like the technical apes we are.

There's a lot we don't understand yet. Gotta figure out the science of certain aspects of why it acts a certain way. Also have to get our heads around file management. Don't so much mind the events being locked in the "movies' folder since it's protected by Time Machine (which might also be a great resource for previous versions of projects since we can't save anymore). It could be a problem later as the Movies folder is on a 256 gig SSD, which may one day fill up.

I like it. I like it alot. I've been dreaming of playing with it since the meet, because I've always felt editing would be more fun if it weren't so clumsy. I'll have to develop my muscle memory on repetitive functions and learn the psychology behind why certain things are implemented as they are. Using lots of the other native Apple apps, I do like how things are getting more consistent across the board.

Gotta look into that time machine thing for previous edits. That might be awesome.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Mario Gongora
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 23, 2011 at 8:17:34 pm

John, I just have a quick question, as I have not found any info on this. You mentioned you "rode" the levels... was that in the inspector window? I'm desperately looking for the "mixer" in this thing which I use heavily to set levels for different audio channels in real time. Any help would be appreciated.
Mario.



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John Davidson
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 24, 2011 at 4:38:41 am

We adjusted the levels directly in the timeline, per clip. You can actually see the entire waveform clearly, so it was easy to average them out My editor and I switched off a bit, but he found a way to mix it better (nowhere near a protools mix, obviously). I'll ask him tomorrow.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Fred Waycoot
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Aug 4, 2011 at 8:58:07 pm

"Not everything was perfect. We use 2 monitors, and during testing earlier today the program froze while video was fullscreen in monitor 2."

Jon, are you still UNABLE to work on a 2nd monitor? Or did you get this working after all? I'm thinking of getting a 2nd display but I want to know if that is working for folks or not. What are the specs of your computer? Thanks!

-Fred Waycoot
Editor/Colorist/Filmmaking Guy


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Jim Giberti
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:21:00 am

You're being far too reasonable John.
Are you sure you don't want to threaten an immediate move to another platform, accuse Apple of false advertising, or was it a soccer mom video you did?

Seriously, it's so nice to see sane comments. It's 300 bucks. It uses all your processors and all your RAM, it just emerged and it's from a company that's gat a fairly established track record.

If they were going to drop the program they would have dropped it.
If they want to capture the amateur market, they've got iMovie.
They have social media output because it's kind of a big thing in the world now.
They've simplified taks because we have the technology to do that now...that's where the world goes.
It's not perfect because it's version 1 of a new app.
Spend $300 or don't but IMO a smart professional already working in FCP should spend a few bucks and learn the new paradigm.

I'll be amazed if the glaring omissions aren't brought online in a timeline as reasonable as any of us that have grown with other creative paradigms have seen.
IF they don't then we'll all move on. and if you're an accomplished pro $300 means what?
Apple isn't that stupid, they're really not.


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David Dobson
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 6:43:40 am

Spoken like a true believer. Right on!


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Jim Giberti
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 7:24:05 am

Not a true believer, just an experienced professional that's worked my way through this with Media 100, FCP, Digital Performer, Logic, Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash and lot's more in my studios.
I'm speaking from experience and logic.
If I'm wrong I'll be happy to acknowledge it.

I just think it's immature to throw rants and insults at this stage, whether it's about the app or the people who are adopting it.
A little balance, a little less vitriol and snide commentary is usually the best professional approach in my experience.

I have no dog in this fight, but I do have X and Motion 5 and they're definitely not some massive blunder, deception or cause for rage.
They look like the start of a great new 64 bit environment that I'm pretty sure Apple will be integrating powerfully with Lion and Thunderbolt.
I really don't think I'm wrong.


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Al Bergstein
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 6:47:38 am

Thanks John, that makes it easier to understand. Glad it got you that far, though it obviously had issues. Glad you liked it!

Jim, you know, being critical of a product upgrade to a product that I (we all) paid thousands of dollars to implement what with add ons, hardware upgrades, etc. is not meaning that I have some axe to grind with Apple. This product is what I base my business on. This is all about whether and when I upgrade to this new toolset. For now, it's just something I'm watching from afar. And yes, I'm critical that I can't open my existing products in it, for example. Maybe someday I'll feel like paying Apple to learn the new product. For now, I have a tool that does what I need, albeit it slowly (read transcode, etc.). I'll make my decisions to stay with FCP based on business decisions, like not having to waste time transcoding, which I don't in competing products (and now I don't have to in the new FCPX, that's goodness.). Can my third party add ons work, like Boris or? Since I can't edit in FCPX and then open that file in FCP to run my 32 bit add on apps (like I can with Vegas, for example). So nothing personal. No flame here... It's just business decisions...

It was just a week or so ago when many people here were saying, "stop the nay saying, (and worse thoughts than that), you just wait'. Well, I did. And to now say, "well it's just a V1 product of a new app" is really quite lame. It's not a V1. It's X (G). It has a history. A huge user base, given what Larry found out when his servers crashed this morning with over a million hits. There are obviously some great features implemented here, but it's not baked yet for many of us. And there is Adobe and Avid on their heels, just wanting our (my) business. Let's hope the upgrades come fast and furious.

Alf


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William Carr
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 7:13:59 am

(It's not an upgrade product.)


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Jim Giberti
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 7:44:45 am

We're in the same boat Al.
While we do both the creative end and production in film, audio, design and interactive we do more in film and editing on balance.
I've got somewhere around a dozen open projects in FCP 7 at this point and about the same to be shot and produced this summer.

I realize we're more suited to early adopting than a lot of straight editing facilities because nothing has to go out of house for any post and we have a completely digital environment. But the truth is - this isn't just the future, it's the now. Every TV spot that's we've put out the last two years, to virtually every, station goes out h.264...that's the HD standard and it all goes digitally.

Likewise every radio campaign goes out to every station as MP3 as does very talent file that we receive.
Obviously all of the web content is also digital as is all our photography and less and less of our design work goes to traditional print.

We haven't laid a project to tape in over a year and while it will be a while before everyone can say that, it's never going back there.

Anyway, it's all good IMO. We'll happily finish up the current work in FCP 7 and I'm definitely going to produce this summer's projects in X and Motion 5 and use it as a chance to master the new environment.

I'm really very psyched about it. I love learning and moving forward and I really do think this is forward.


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Chris Kenny
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 6:47:44 am

[Jim Giberti] "They have social media output because it's kind of a big thing in the world now."

Yeah, I love the idea that this is a feature that somehow has no place in a pro app. We primarily do post work on feature films, and guess what? We do Vimeo outputs far more often than, say, DPX outputs. Outputting to DPX happens once, at the end (maybe earlier for short clips going to VFX guys). Stuff gets tossed on Vimeo (with a password, naturally) on a daily basis for review by clients.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Mark Palmos
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 8:52:26 am

Mate, I'm glad you are not my business manager!
Is there something you did in this project that you could not do with fcp7? If so, I would be curious to know what!

Mark.


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John Davidson
Re: X paid for itself today with us
on Jun 22, 2011 at 8:57:52 am

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/3442

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Bill Kelly
Re: It's business... not personal
on Jun 23, 2011 at 1:51:43 am

I agree 6 months is a reasonable time to see whether we will have the pro app everyone was expecting. It's going to take that long to be able to have 64 bit upgrades most of the 3rd party plugins we've been using in the previous versions of FCP anyway.
For now I'm going to continue using my older version of Final Cut and see what happens in the future. I had no plans to immediately buy FCP X anyway. I really hope Apple hasn't abandoned the pro market, but as a freelancer I'm going to be brushing up on PPro and MC in the next few months just in case.



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