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What are you thinking about CS6?

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Tim Wilson
What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 5:03:04 pm

One of the memes here is that Adobe Premiere is for many people the FCP 8 they'd been waiting for.

I know that the release is around the corner - are you camping out in line already?

I assume that some of you saw the demos at NAB - how did they strike you?

I also know that Premiere Pro has been jostling with Avid Media Composer/Symphony for mindshare/marketshare among folks looking for their next landing spot. How are you feeling about that now?

I can only assume that this conversation will heat up in the next month once people have had a chance to jump up and down on it...but for this forum, that's awfully close to reality. I'm looking for the unique combination of insight, expertise, speculation and condescension that only you can provide.

KIDDING! LOL Play nice, now. But I really am curious to take the temperature of the room at this point in the proceedings.

thx,
tw

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Bobby Mosca
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 5:17:50 pm

Oh, no... I've learned my lesson about buying an NLE on the first day it's released. There are elements in there I'm pretty interested in, but I'm not in GOTTA HAVE IT! mode just yet. Perhaps I have also learned not to get excited about this sort of thing.


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Dustin Parsons
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:02:00 pm

I'm very excited about it! From the demos it looks like Adobe made some huge headway with this release and I can't wait to start cutting on it.


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David Lawrence
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:26:23 pm

I downloaded the trial yesterday via a link in the RedUser forum and played with it all afternoon and evening.

Mind. Blown.

Believe the hype, the Conan boys are right. It really is Adobe's Final Cut Pro 8.

I was positively giddy playing with the trim tools. They are now easily among the best in the industry. Avid users will jump for joy and at the same time, FCP users will be completely comfortable.

It handled native footage like butter with real-time playback and no rendering on my 4-year old Macbook Pro. I felt like I had a new machine! Chormakey, color correction, whatever I threw at it -- it never blinked. My brother in LA had no problem cutting 4K Red footage, again on a Macbook Pro.

Is it perfect? Nope. I've started my list of things that need improvement, but nothing so far is a show stopper.

Make no mistake, Premiere Pro CS 6 is a game changing release. Once the masses get their hands on it, I predict you'll see a huge shift to Adobe. Definitely from FCP users and also from Avid users who will now find PP very compelling.

Hat's off to the Adobe team for not only listening, but for delivering the goods. If they continue like this, by version 7 or 8, they will truly have the Photoshop of NLEs.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Lance Bachelder
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:39:37 pm

Got to play with a little at NAB and liked it enough to happily pre-order the CS6 Cloud subscription! Can't wait...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Conlee
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 2:21:50 pm

Yeah, as an existing owner, the cloud subscription is a no-brainer for the first year: $30/month! For EVERYTHING in their suite. You're kidding me, right? I'm an Avid guy thru and thru, but there's always room for another suite on certain jobs.

Chris


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:45:15 pm

Wow! Now THIS is an endorsement! Maybe I'll give it a go before Summer.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:55:05 pm

David,

How is it for audio, particularly mixing? I haven't seen or heard much talk of changes (except the UI of the mixer) which leads me to believe not much changed from 5.5 in this respect.

Franz.


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:31:17 pm

Yes, I would definitely like to hear what anyone has to say about audio handling.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:36:19 pm

Audio is MUCH improved and you can now have mono and stereo tracks without the goofy separation of earlier versions. Mixer is new and much like Audition though I didn't get to try sending mix to Audition yet.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:39:28 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Audio is MUCH improved and you can now have mono and stereo tracks without the goofy separation of earlier versions. Mixer is new and much like Audition though I didn't get to try sending mix to Audition yet.
"


Cool!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:49:43 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Yes, I would definitely like to hear what anyone has to say about audio handling."

What do you want to know?

As with Cs 5.5, the mixer only works on a track level, not on a clip level.

So if you do real time mixes with the mixer, then move anything in the timeline, the adjustments stay with the timing of the track, not with the individual clips.

It does have an awesome track based bussing/submix system (something I have missed since my Media100 days), and the multichannel export is improved.

There is also a new "adaptive" track which means that you can have stereo, mono, and surround clips on one track if that's helpful to you. if you want to keep things like FCP, I'd suggest working in mono tracks, with perhaps some stereo tracks for music.

Here's a good solid rundown:

http://www.retooled.net/?p=314

http://www.retooled.net/?p=317


Jeremy


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 9:04:39 pm

Thanks! It looks pretty acceptable!

[Jeremy Garchow] "As with Cs 5.5, the mixer only works on a track level, not on a clip level.
"


I the tutorial, it seemed he was able to independently adjust clip volume. Did I understand that correctly?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 9:21:16 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I the tutorial, it seemed he was able to independently adjust clip volume. Did I understand that correctly?"

You can adjust/keyframe clip levels on the clip, but if you record keyframes through the mixer, or change the mixer level, that is for the whole track.

Clip volume and track volume work independently and you can choose which one to view in the timeline.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 9:21:44 pm

ohhh yaayyyyyyy.

this is what I was waiting to hear. Praise the be to the Gods, I will have my CS6 now please.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:43:38 pm

Its REVOLUTIONARY. {Chortle}

I've already bought it because I generally buy every other CS Production upgrade. I'm guessing it will get much more scrutiny from me this time around as it is very possible that it will, over the next year or two, become a force in my little corner of the Universe. I haven't played with it much, since its early days, because there has been no outside driving force to get me there, and my early impressions were fairly negative, though I have believed--for several years--from an intellectual POV that the software had much improved.
I AM much more personally interested in it, this time around, both because of the changes to Premiere and the radical changes to FCP X. So, despite the sloth that summer brings, I'm guessing I will be spending a lot of time with Premiere.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:57:29 pm

[Chris Harlan] " I'm guessing it will get much more scrutiny from me this time around as it is very possible that it will, over the next year or two, become a force in my little corner of the Universe."

I'd be very interested to know if your neck of the Universe is starting to make audible noises about actually using it, though.

My position is that unless and until my clients start cutting movies with it there is no question of my thinking about using it in any meaningful way. Whether I want to or not.

Though of course I'll join in with playing on it this time, just like everybody else!

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:20:05 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I'd be very interested to know if your neck of the Universe is starting to make audible noises about actually using it, though.
"


Yes, I'm hearing a few things here and there--some of them substantial--but all still speculation and not quite commitment yet. Still, FAR more in the last four or five months than I have heard in the entire history of Premiere until then. The maturity of the product, the low level of investment, and the void being left by 7 may actually make the difference this time around. The advantage that Avid has in this market, though, are the number of shows that post around Unity. And in general, Avid is probably the big winner in this town. But, there is definitely a hole in the promo world that Premiere might be perfect for.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:33:03 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Yes, I'm hearing a few things here and there--some of them substantial--but all still speculation and not quite commitment yet."

Thanks a lot, Chris. That's very useful to hear.

My experience this side of the pond is very much that Media Composer is for the moment taking up any slack in the FCP7 market at least in terms of the feature film world. I'd be surprised if any feature was posted on Premiere for another year at least over here - but you never know. CS6 is certainly looking the business.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:38:50 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "My experience this side of the pond is very much that Media Composer is for the moment taking up any slack in the FCP7 market at least in terms of the feature film world. I'd be surprised if any feature was posted on Premiere for another year at least over here - but you never know. CS6 is certainly looking the business.
"


In general, I would say that's whats happening here in LA too, in relation to Avid. And promo shops that are Avid shops will remain that way. Where Premiere is having impact is in old FCP areas that are adjacent to heavy AE. This is where the movement is.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:03:21 pm

I've been lucky enough to get a peek at it, too.

Adobe has done an awesome job.

With further integration of Speedgrade, and better conforming/relink (media management), along with more XMP control, it will truly be top notch. It could stand to use a DI codec as well, but maybe that will come later.

The interface, while not quite "perfect", has come a long way. I know they have worked very hard on it.

Dynamic LInk to AE is really truly great. It's like having the power of AE and all that entails connected directly to your NLE (because...youknow...it is connected to the NLE). If you know and use AE, it's truly the crown jewel.

Curious, David Lawrence. What kind of footage are you playing back?

Jeremy


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David Lawrence
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:29:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Curious, David Lawrence. What kind of footage are you playing back?"

Nothing too aggressive -- ProRes 422, XDCAM EX, and H.264, the kind of stuff I normally work with day-to-day. I have the same 4K Red sample footage as my bro and will fool around with it later today. His machine is a couple years newer than mine. He says he was playing full 4K source files, but at 1/8 resolution.

For my ProRes test I used this guide to set up an end-to-end workflow and was happy with the result:

http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2011/08/a-prores-workflow-end-to-end.html

[Jeremy Garchow] "It could stand to use a DI codec as well, but maybe that will come later."

Very true. I'm told they're well aware so hopefully we'll see something soon.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Walter Soyka
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 11:19:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Dynamic LInk to AE is really truly great. It's like having the power of AE and all that entails connected directly to your NLE (because...youknow...it is connected to the NLE). If you know and use AE, it's truly the crown jewel."

I agree wholeheartedly with Jeremy on this. With my graphics orientation, dynamic link between AE and Pr has been a huge workflow boost. I've been really happy with what I've seen in CS6, and I think it's a natural choice for graphics-heavy post. I'll be curious to see what the adoption rate in promo-land is.

One thing I'd mention, though -- a lot of people are comparing Pr CS6 to the erstwhile FCP8, but I think it's important to remember that this is not actually FCP. There are a few differences (like the natural inclination for all-native workflow and the attendant render upon output, for example) that FCP users will have to learn, but I think Adobe has done an outstanding job of improving Pr (and incorporating some good ideas from other NLEs) without losing their own philosophy on editorial.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:53:33 pm

I'm likely to have a look a bit later (June? July?) (perhaps while also checking out Lightworks and FCPX).

I'm encouraged by what I hear and see but still skeptical until the test of practice, particularly with respect to large projects and also audio handling / mixing.


Franz.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 6:55:28 pm

The fact that Premiere now supports the OpenCL card on my Macbook Pro, makes it a no-brainer for me to update my master collection to CS6. Excited about the improvements in AE as well. FCPX is working well for my corporate work, but why choose one NLE when I can have two? I have yet to cut on Avid in my career and I don't see any reason to start now.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 7:26:05 pm

Preordered and excited!

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Todd Kopriva
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 8:13:19 pm

If anyone has specific questions about Premiere Pro CS6, fire away.

We've got a list of what's new and changed in Premiere Pro CS6 and the new applications in the suite on the Adobe website, including some links to videos going through all of the improvements.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
product manager, professional video software
After Effects team blog
Premiere Pro team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Robert Brown
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 6:42:12 am

Any idea why MTS files won't play back on a 12 Core Mac Pro with 32 GB Ram, and an Nvidia GTX 285 card? They just sit there frozen but pro res plays ok. The same clips would play on CS 5.5.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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David McGavran
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 3:38:45 pm

Sample file somewhere?

Thanks

Dave


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Robert Brown
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 4:11:53 pm

Do you mean do you want me to post on of my files? It's a GH-200 file BTW 1080 24P. This is on OSX Lion.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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David McGavran
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 5:01:49 pm

Yep if you could post me a small file I can see if it works here and we can start from there.

Cheers

Dave


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Robert Brown
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 6:59:13 pm

Just curious are you with Adobe? I can email a link I guess if you give me an address.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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David McGavran
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 9:43:31 pm

Yep I am with Adobe :) Tod introduced me below, I decided to add a signature ;)

Can you send private messages on this forum? If so send me a link

Cheers

Dave

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David McGavran, Adobe Systems Incorporated
Engineering Manager Adobe Premiere Pro
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Robert Brown
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 3, 2012 at 10:40:48 pm

I loaded a project from 5.5 with MTS last night and it was fine. I'll see if I can repeat the problem. Off the bat 6.0 does seem better.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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David Jahns
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 8:18:30 pm

Assuming the Transmit (video out to KONA card) works as advertised, I'd say it's 90% likely we'll replace all of our FCP 7 systems with CS 6 this year.

(By that, I mean Premiere - we all have CS 5 for Photoshop/After Effects, etc. And most also have Avid on a different boot drive. We're currently doing about 50/50 Avid-FCP 7)

I've heard conflicting things about Speed Grade and the video output. I heard that SG does NOT support Transmit, and therefore the "Grading Application" can't actually output to a calibrated monitor. If so, that's ummm... disappointing is about the nicest word for it. Can anyone confirm?

I realize SG was a recent acquisition, and they barely had time to integrate it at all - but the whole idea of Dynamic linking falls apart when to/from SpeedGrade means flattened intermediate renders. Hopefully, that will added before CS 7!

David Jahns
---
Joint Editorial
Portland, OR


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Todd Kopriva
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 8:24:47 pm

I'll see if I can get someone from the SpeedGrade team to address the specific questions about SpeedGrade output to a monitor.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
product manager, professional video software
After Effects team blog
Premiere Pro team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Walter Soyka
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 10:09:03 pm

[David Jahns] "I've heard conflicting things about Speed Grade and the video output. I heard that SG does NOT support Transmit, and therefore the "Grading Application" can't actually output to a calibrated monitor. If so, that's ummm... disappointing is about the nicest word for it. Can anyone confirm?"

Of cours SpeedGrade can do proper video out, but it does require an NVIDIA HD-SDI daughter card -- meaning it also requires a Quadro GPU and a PC.

NVIDIA has more information [link] on their web site.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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David Jahns
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 10:23:22 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Of cours SpeedGrade can do proper video out, but it does require an NVIDIA HD-SDI daughter card -- meaning it also requires a Quadro GPU and a PC. "

Ok, Thanks, Walter. So SpeedGrade on Mac is apparently hobbled - but works on Windows with specific video NVIDIA cards? That makes sense, and explains the discrepancies I heard at NAB.

Better than nothing, but I think most users would prefer it to talk to Transmit & push video out to the AJA-BM-Matrox cards.

If it doesn't, CS6 on Mac is somewhat limited as a complete suite, which is what most FCS customers are looking for.

Good thing Resolve fills that gap!

David Jahns
---
Joint Editorial
Portland, OR


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Robert Brown
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 6:44:53 am

Yeah if that doesn't work with Kona then that's a big deal.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Todd Kopriva
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 4:07:12 pm

I've checked with one of the SpeedGrade guys and gotten some additional information about the SpeedGrade questions raised here.

There were two topics raised above:

1. SDI monitoring
2. round-tripping between Premiere Pro and SpeedGrade


about #1, SDI monitoring:

SpeedGrade doesn't use Mercury Transmit.

SpeedGrade does use the nVidia Quadro SDI solutions on Windows. As Premiere Pro can use the same hardware as well, it's simple to create a built-to-purpose workstation that works great for both applications. While this may be a bit disappointing for many people who already own AJA, Blackmagic, Matrox, Bluefish cards, and others, it's still a great value for everyone who wants to add a dedicated grading system with excellent performance.

Be sure to take into account the hardware that you'd need to buy and use for comparable performance with other color grading systems when making comparions. We think that total cost of ownership of a hardware system built for SpeedGrade is quite competitive with the total cost of ownership for other grading systems.

That said, we certainly acknowledge that many people won't be able to go for wide deployment of SpeedGrade before they can use hardware that they own already. That's why we're working hard on making this better for future versions---specifically, we're working on getting Mercury Transmit into SpeedGrade in the future. I can't make promises on specifically when (or even whether) this will happen, but I can say that we're working on it.


about #2, integration with Premiere Pro:

In CS6, we have a really solid workflow with Send To SpeedGrade that is ultimately easy to use, hard to break, and should be applicable to everything that's short-form.

For long-form work, we have a very well established, proven (and also hard to break) workflow via EDL export. While this is not the most modern, it's highly functional and doesn't require the editor or the colorist to become an expert in XML tweaking.

But, again, we certainly acknowledge that tighter integration would be even better... and we're working on it. Improving our color workflows is a very high priority for us.

Here's that feature-request link again, for those who want to give specific requests:
http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

I don't want to sound like we're making excuses, but I do ask you to realize that we only just acquired the SpeedGrade technology very recently and didn't have much time for integration work for CS6. Personally, I'm very impressed with what the SpeedGrade team was able to accomplish. Anyone who has used the previous versions of SpeedGrade should notice that the UI is much improved, as well as many other advances.

BTW, we have a bunch of video tutorials on the Adobe website about using SpeedGrade. Check 'em out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
product manager, professional video software
After Effects team blog
Premiere Pro team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Robert Brown
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 4:18:15 pm

Yeah I totally understand you guys haven't had a huge amount of time to tweak SG but the SDI thing is big. One huge annoyance at the moment is having to reconfigure to accommodate software. Resolve, Smoke, and now SG all require specific hardware to get SDI out.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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David Jahns
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?- SPEED GRADE
on May 2, 2012 at 5:07:10 pm

Thanks for the clarification, Todd.

I totally understand your situation of SG being a recent acquisition, not fully integrated yet, etc.

Just a couple of notes to add...

SDI monitoring through KONA/BM etc on MAC - this is VERY important for a facility currently using FC Studio and using Color for Grading with client sessions. If SpeedGrade worked with KONA, I'd be much more likely to stay in the CS 6 suite for finishing. As it is, I'm more likely to swap my KONA card for a Blackmagic card, simply to be able to use Resolve for grading & output to a broadcast monitor.

If I was already using a Windows system, I'd be stoked about the NVIDIA solution. As it is, I was stoked about Transmit. (Still am for PP and AE.)

As far as the round-trip workflow - again, I understand it's a work in progress. But the "stable/hard to break" short form workflow - that could also be interpreted as "rigid and inflexible".

One of the things that is nice about the Color & Resolve XML roundtrip is that you can grade each shot and render discreet clips with handles. This can be quite helpful when further changes come up. The concept of "locking picture" seems to be disappearing in my corner of the world (broadcast advertising). Changes happen right up until the last minute, so it's helpful to grade the footage, and send it back to the NLE, and if slight tweaks need to be made to the edit, they can do it with graded footage, and you don't have to go back in to grading to add a few frames to a shot.

In this case, maybe the EDL workflow would be better for me? But again, until I can output from my Mac to a monitor, I doubt SpeedGrade will fit into our finish pipeline.

Thanks for all of the info!

David Jahns
---
Joint Editorial
Portland, OR


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Robert Brown
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?- SPEED GRADE
on May 2, 2012 at 7:00:46 pm

[David Jahns] "Thanks for the clarification, Todd.

I totally understand your situation of SG being a recent acquisition, not fully integrated yet, etc.

Just a couple of notes to add...

SDI monitoring through KONA/BM etc on MAC - this is VERY important for a facility currently using FC Studio and using Color for Grading with client sessions. If SpeedGrade worked with KONA, I'd be much more likely to stay in the CS 6 suite for finishing. As it is, I'm more likely to swap my KONA card for a Blackmagic card, simply to be able to use Resolve for grading & output to a broadcast monitor.

If I was already using a Windows system, I'd be stoked about the NVIDIA solution. As it is, I was stoked about Transmit. (Still am for PP and AE.)

As far as the round-trip workflow - again, I understand it's a work in progress. But the "stable/hard to break" short form workflow - that could also be interpreted as "rigid and inflexible".

One of the things that is nice about the Color & Resolve XML roundtrip is that you can grade each shot and render discreet clips with handles. This can be quite helpful when further changes come up. The concept of "locking picture" seems to be disappearing in my corner of the world (broadcast advertising). Changes happen right up until the last minute, so it's helpful to grade the footage, and send it back to the NLE, and if slight tweaks need to be made to the edit, they can do it with graded footage, and you don't have to go back in to grading to add a few frames to a shot.

In this case, maybe the EDL workflow would be better for me? But again, until I can output from my Mac to a monitor, I doubt SpeedGrade will fit into our finish pipeline.

Thanks for all of the info!

David Jahns
---
Joint Editorial
Portland, OR

"


What he said.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Mike Molenda
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 8:20:14 pm

I was asked to cut a RED-shot student film that will supposedly be wrapping around the time CS6 is supposedly going to be released. Looking forward to being able to take some R3D for a spin in a low-pressure situation.


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Herb Sevush
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 8:34:07 pm

[Tim Wilson] "I assume that some of you saw the demos at NAB - how did they strike you?"

Incomplete, like all demos. Watching someone use a multi-cam function to cut a live music performance tells me almost nothing I need to know -- I am very anxious to get my hands on PPro6 and see if it will work for me.

[Tim Wilson] "I also know that Premiere Pro has been jostling with Avid Media Composer/Symphony for mindshare/marketshare among folks looking for their next landing spot. How are you feeling about that now?"

Leaning to Adobe, but the Symphony crossgrade is also very tempting. I'm not one of those editors who "throws everything in the toolkit." I'm monogamous when it comes to editing, so that choice is a commitment that I won't rush.

[Tim Wilson] "I'm looking for the unique combination of insight, expertise, speculation and condescension that only you can provide. "

I hope we can live up to your expectations, you Luddite fanboy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 9:32:24 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Leaning to Adobe, but the Symphony crossgrade is also very tempting."

I'm guessing I will need to straddle them both, though which I will lean to as "mine" I have no idea yet.


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Herb Sevush
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 9:43:02 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I'm guessing I will need to straddle them both, though which I will lean to as "mine" I have no idea yet."

I know what Symphony is and can do, I'm still not sure what PPro is, hence the uncertainty. I'm not a big AE user, I like having Symphony's CC right in the Ap, but I'm not crazy about Avid's stodgy timeline style. PPro is much more similar to FC in terms of actual cutting in the timeline, and if they have added the right features, like Legacy's sync indicator, and if their multi-cam is flexible enough, then they've got me. Otherwise I know Avid can handle my workflow, and while I've been avoiding them for almost 20 years, if it's got to be, so be it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Michael Hancock
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 9:52:42 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I like having Symphony's CC right in the Ap, but I'm not crazy about Avid's stodgy timeline style."

When's the last time you used Avid? They've taken great pains in the last few versions (starting at V4, I think) to add more FCP type functionality to their timeline with the Smart Tools.

Personally, I hate them (I like the editing modes) and turn them off but if you like direct timeline interaction they might be perfect for you. Either way, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on Symphony if you go that route. I've been all Premiere for the last few months and just bought Symphony for my home system. Too good of a deal to pass up. Looking forward to test driving CS6, too.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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David Lawrence
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 9:59:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I know what Symphony is and can do, I'm still not sure what PPro is, hence the uncertainty. I'm not a big AE user, I like having Symphony's CC right in the Ap, but I'm not crazy about Avid's stodgy timeline style. PPro is much more similar to FC in terms of actual cutting in the timeline, and if they have added the right features, like Legacy's sync indicator, and if their multi-cam is flexible enough, then they've got me. Otherwise I know Avid can handle my workflow, and while I've been avoiding them for almost 20 years, if it's got to be, so be it."

Audio sync markers are there, but they're at the top of my list of things needing improvement. Currently, they only display when linked audio and video are thrown out-of-sync. They disappear as soon as you unlink audio and video. It's easy to select linked audio and video elements separately -- just option select. But I don't think this is a scaleable solution. Like FCP, audio and video elements from the same source should always show sync markers if slipped, regardless of whether the elements are linked or not.

Also, even though I don't use multicam and haven't tried it, I know it's important to you. From what I've seen in demos, it looks like the PP's multicam needs a complete redo. The whole paradigm of a separate window and needing to record a multicam session feels off to me.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 10:28:44 pm

[David Lawrence] "Like FCP, audio and video elements from the same source should always show sync markers if slipped, regardless of whether the elements are linked or not."

Indeed! I find this very, very useful.


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Herb Sevush
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 10:33:46 pm

[David Lawrence] "Audio sync markers are there, but they're at the top of my list of things needing improvement. Currently, they only display when linked audio and video are thrown out-of-sync."

How can linked clips get thrown out of sync? Markers are needed only for un-linked elements.

And one of the really great things about Legacy was the way the sync markers could re-sync, with options for how you wanted it done. Invaluable.

It's also crucial to working with multi-cam because your always working with un-linked sources, unless they treat the whole multi-cam clip as a single source, no matter which video angle you've cut too.

Their demo was hopeless on these and many other subjects, although it's not Adobe's fault, the subject is too complex to get the nuances in a demo.

[David Lawrence] "Like FCP, audio and video elements from the same source should always show sync markers if slipped, regardless of whether the elements are linked or not."

Especially if they are not.

[David Lawrence] "The whole paradigm of a separate window and needing to record a multicam session feels off to me."

That's another reason I need to get my hands on it. I'm hoping it's just a silly way to reference something similar to the " open sync" function in the source window of Legacy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 10:52:53 pm

[Herb Sevush] "How can linked clips get thrown out of sync? Markers are needed only for un-linked elements.

And one of the really great things about Legacy was the way the sync markers could re-sync, with options for how you wanted it done. Invaluable. "


You can option-click on one of the linked elements and move it separately, throwing it out of sync. Both elements are still linked but they display markers showing the offset. You can option-click on a sync marker and you get a drop down that lets you either move the element back into sync, or slip the content into sync.

The markers dissappear if you unlink. But if you re-link again, they re-appear. It's workable, but I agree that Legacy is much better.

Re: Multicam - I'm really looking forward to hearing what you think once you get your hands on it.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Walter Soyka
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 11:00:56 pm

[David Lawrence] "The markers dissappear if you unlink. But if you re-link again, they re-appear. It's workable, but I agree that Legacy is much better."

Adobe loves feedback [link]!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Tangier Clarke
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 1, 2012 at 10:04:26 pm

Definitely interested in checking it out, but I reall love FCP X and the direction it's going. I think it's unfortunate as its being said that Adobe made FCP 8. Despite the growing pains of FCP X, I like the forward thinking Apple took and look forward to its growth. I am glad for the competition too. Good for all of us. Would love to try the new Smoke. I only know Blender. Tried the new Avid MC and ran back to FCP 7 and X.

Jashaka anyone?! Just kidding.

Tangier


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Dennis Radeke
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 12:15:58 am

Will try to provide some answers and start at the top...

Dave Lawrence - thank you for such gracious words. We strive to gain and keep people's trust.

Franz - "How is it for audio, particularly mixing?"


As others pointed out, we are a track based mixer as opposed to a clip based mixer. We do understand that many FCP and Avid people want a clip mixer and we will see what happens. That aside, the audio capabilities of Premiere Pro are pretty good and much more advanced than other tools in many ways. submix, inserts & sends, and some solid post automation including touch and latch are a couple of the things I like.

As for audio handling, I really like to think that with this release we have taken a leadership position. We've always been able to handle unlimited tracks, but now we're handling multi-channel audio much more effectively. For example, I can handle 8-trk AVC-Intra clips and express the audio in ANY way I want - 4 stereo, 8 mono, single 8-track wave or any combination. Same on output. Really happy about that one. It's a bit complicated to grasp at first, but once you get it, it's really super.

Lance - Audio + Audition

round trip behavior between Audition and PRemiere Pro remains the same which is pretty good. Audition got a bunch of cool features including our auto dialog alignment tool which is great for ADR.

Chris Harlan on clip volume

Yes, you have clip based adjustments available on the clip itself in the timeline. Not quite the same as a clip-based mixer, but not awful.

Adobe moving into the high-end

I've replied in other threads. Will summarize by saying we are making significant strides and seek to win the trust of Hollywood and other film makers. We're in deeply in broadcast and growing that now.

Walter "One thing I'd mention, though -- a lot of people are comparing Pr CS6 to the erstwhile FCP8, but I think it's important to remember that this is not actually FCP. There are a few differences (like the natural inclination for all-native workflow and the attendant render upon output, for example) that FCP users will have to learn, but I think Adobe has done an outstanding job of improving Pr (and incorporating some good ideas from other NLEs) without losing their own philosophy on editorial."

TOTALLY agree. Adobe wants to intelligently support the most important aspects of other applications while giving users innovative and new ways to do things where it makes sense. The trimming in CS6 is a great example of where we attempted to adopt much of what made Avid trimming great but also make it better, easier and intuitive to grasp as well.

Franz "I'm encouraged by what I hear and see but still skeptical until the test of practice, particularly with respect to large projects and also audio handling / mixing."


We agree which is why we want users to use the free trial when they need a good evaluation.

David Jahns - Adobe solutions on NVIDIA are terrific and the Speedgrade solution there is VERY nice. however, I agree that not having support for AJA, BMD, Matrox, etc is a bummer. Fact is, that we just didn't have enough time to do what we wanted with Speedgrade. We have a long list of future enhancements and one of the top ones is definitely other card support.

Herb - I'd suggest you spend some significant time with our three-way color corrector which is really what the main feature of Symphony vs. MC6 is all about (at least as I understand it).

Okay - back to some email... sorry!

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Rich Rubasch
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 12:52:24 am

We are a production facility with 5 FCP systems and 9 years of FCP projects backed up. We constantly open old projects, update them and output. It's easy. I suppose I will need a working Snow Leopard install with FCP7 and AE 5.5 so I can continue to provide the excellent service we have.

Whatever the edit system we transition to it will mean months and months of growing pains...learning software, teaching each other, learning together and creating new workflows that become the new standard of service that we provide.

The harsh reality is that this is truly a sad time for me in this industry. It seems the wonderful run we had with FCP7, its ease of use and long years of dependable service is akin to taking the old Chevy to the crusher.

Premier Pro? Really? I have to be a Premier shop? Just doesn't sound sexy. AVID? Are they gonna make it thru their financial burdens? Smoke? Ok. under $4000 NOW for Smoke on a Mac but what's the upgrade cost gonna be going forward? (5 systems) and what Mac will I run it on.

Until I know what exactly Mac is going to do with hardware, I'm sticking to my very much working 5 seats of FCP and CS 5.5 on Kona cards. and we'll be doing just fine whatever shakes out.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Gary Slickman
on May 2, 2012 at 1:40:07 am





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Michael Gissing
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 3:49:15 am

As an picture & audio post facility, I have to say that a combination of clip based gain & EQ plus track & bus based automation is the most powerful and useful combination. Clip based keyframing of audio is clumsy compared to having track and bus faders to ride.

That said it is vital that a simple means to move track based automation with the clips is important so that automation made during the edit process sticks to clips. If Adobe can make sure this happens elegantly then I think editors will see the benefit of track based automation.

Whenever I had to rough mix in FCP the fact that everything was clip based was a major pain. It really is so slow and hopeless for track based effects like EQ, de-essing and dynamics processing. Trust me you will want track based automation as long as it is easy to cut and paste with clips.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 4:06:38 am

[Michael Gissing] "Whenever I had to rough mix in FCP the fact that everything was clip based was a major pain. It really is so slow and hopeless for track based effects like EQ, de-essing and dynamics processing. Trust me you will want track based automation as long as it is easy to cut and paste with clips."

But of course!


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 2:41:45 pm

[Michael Gissing] "That said it is vital that a simple means to move track based automation with the clips is important so that automation made during the edit process sticks to clips. If Adobe can make sure this happens elegantly then I think editors will see the benefit of track based automation."

Michael,

I think you've critically articulated it best here - understanding the strength of both models, the problem of the current implementation, and a clear way to improve. Please send to Adobe!

Franz.


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che broadnax
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 8, 2012 at 2:33:32 pm

Track-based levels and automation gain have long been the default audio workflow in Avid Media Composer. It's perfect for doing rough mixes or even a final mix if you're not sending out to ProTools. The convenience of not having to drag tiny key frames in your timeline, or having to load every clip into a viewer is a nobrainer. Park your timeline over a clip, adjust in mixer, move to next clip, repeat. FCP never quite figured this out with all of their tweaking occurring in the viewer, and as premiere takes this particular metaphor from FCP they haven't quite got this right yet either. However, with the attention they're paying to avid's actual editing tools, here's to hoping they get audio right before too long. And that it's a nice patch that automatically downloads to cloud customers like me!


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Ken Pugh
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 8, 2012 at 2:53:47 pm

>The convenience of not having to drag tiny key frames in your timeline, or having to load every clip into a viewer is a nobrainer.

I've never had to do this in FCP, unless I wanted to, perhaps to do detailed work like fix transient peaks etc. otherwise I write audio changes direct into multiple clips simultaneously while playing the timeline - using the mixer, and an optional external Mackie mixing desk with flying faders that drop into record when you touch the faders, and drop out of record when you let go, picking up with the existing mix. Believe me if you've not mixed audio this way you've not lived! (relatively speaking). Doing mixes manually on a clip by clip basis now seems like torture.

Then if I move a bunch of clips to a new place on the timeline, the mix goes with them. That's essentially the kind of functionality I'm personally looking for in PPro. Track based or not.

Best, Ken.


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che broadnax
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 8, 2012 at 6:13:10 pm

How did I not know that the mixer mode in fcp worked this way? That's downright avid-esque. Okay, well, let's just hope Premiere gets with the program there.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 2:46:27 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "We do understand that many FCP and Avid people want a clip mixer and we will see what happens."

Dennis,

I think Michael Gissing articulated the issue more clearly above - the issue is not so much clip based vs. track based, it's the fact that track based information is useless if your edit isn't locked, ie. it sort of assumes I've finished editing before I mix (which is a poor model).

Sticking with the current Adobe model would be greatly improved if track-based mix automation moved with clips.

Franz.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 2:54:52 pm

We've certainly logged this feature request and are considering it. We take our customer requests VERY seriously. Unfortunately, I cannot be any more specific. In short, we get it. ;-)

As Todd and I have mentioned previously, here's the public feature request form: feature request
Dennis


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Todd Kopriva
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 8:37:11 pm

For those who don't know David McGavran, who has posted a few times here: He's the engineering manager for Premiere Pro (and a swell guy).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Kopriva, Adobe Systems Incorporated
product manager, professional video software
After Effects team blog
Premiere Pro team blog
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 10:08:25 pm

[Todd Kopriva] "(and a swell guy)."

Oh, I get it.

A. Swell Guy used to be David McGavrin's radio name?

Good show!

D. Swell Guy was not as nice, though. I'm sure there's no relation.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 2, 2012 at 10:14:31 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] ". it sort of assumes I've finished editing before I mix (which is a poor "

While the current Adobe model does not promote easy key framing of tracks during an edit. There's still a lot you can do with submixes and effects that are applied to either track(s) or submixes if you don't require keyframed effects.

It's pretty sweet.

Volume will still have to be keyframed clip by clip of the edit isn't locked.

It's quite fun and much more powerful than FCP7's mixing.


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Ken Pugh
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 5, 2012 at 12:52:22 pm

Track based effects are very useful, but for me, track based volume changes are useless, as I find I edit picture and mix audio concurrently, right up to delivery.

To avoid the horror of ramping and dipping audio with a pen tool and nodes (unless fixing spikes etc.), automated changes either with an external mixer or the inbuilt faders are essential. And for this to be useful, volume changes need to be written into the clip files. Otherwise a remix is necessary every time audio is moved.

I can't see how moving track based volume automation 'in sync' with clips could be a viable solution either, as clips can change tracks, depending on how the audio overlaps when placed in new positions. I could imagine sudden volume changes being an issue too.

A method of writing track volume changes into clips would work, but this is no different to mixing clip volume directly. When do you ever need to mix the silence between the clips?

Having spent the last 5 years or so mixing multiple audio 'tracks' real time with FCP, in my case with a Mackie Control Surface, I really do not want to go back to endless fiddling with node based audio changes and early onset RSI.

For my workflow at least, this is still a major flaw with PPro, and the only thing stopping me adopt it wholeheartedly.

Belatedly, Ken.


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Chris Harlan
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 5, 2012 at 5:53:53 pm

[Ken Pugh] "A method of writing track volume changes into clips would work, but this is no different to mixing clip volume directly. When do you ever need to mix the silence between the clips?
"


I may be misunderstanding, but from what I've seen, individual clip volume can be adjusted--just not from the mixer. This fits pretty well with the way I work, as I generally edit toward a fine rough mix for a approval, and then after approval, sweeten and do a final mix. Of course, I'm guessing the control surface would be out as regards clip volume, but I don't know.


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Michael Gissing
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 5, 2012 at 10:48:03 pm

[Ken Pugh] "A method of writing track volume changes into clips would work, but this is no different to mixing clip volume directly. When do you ever need to mix the silence between the clips?
"
As I have already said, a combination of clip gain & EQ/ plugins and track & bus based mixing is ideal. I mix a broadcast doco in a day using that combination and at the same time I am creating a variety of deliverables like undipped stems, full mix and MDE. You just can't do that with a clip based mix.

So a combination is the most powerful and the important issue is that the trackbased automation can easily stick and move with clips. The ease of moving track based automation with a clip is the key.


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Ken Pugh
Re: What are you thinking about CS6?
on May 6, 2012 at 11:46:56 am

> I may be misunderstanding, but from what I've seen, individual clip volume can be adjusted--just not from the mixer.

Yes, but I haven't yet found a way of doing this through the keyboard with a single command, as in FCP. Maybe this has changed with 6.

> So a combination is the most powerful and the important issue is that the trackbased automation can easily stick and move with clips. The ease of moving track based automation with a clip is the key.

Agreed. Could an alternative be that the clips have more than one layer of audio modification? So layer one is flat (but with volume edits for peaks or whatever), then layer two is the same, but also adds dips for a language version etc... then these audio layers are assigned to the sub mixes that require them. The sub-mixes then become stems, or English version, French version etc. The programme tracks remain to handle plug-ins, like compression (although sometimes it's useful to be able to apply plugins on a clip basis as well). I too greatly miss the flexibility of sub-mixes from my M100 days.

Best, Ken.


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