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fcpx or not?

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Rainer Wirth
fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 9:14:09 am

one year has gone by, since FCPX was released. To us, it hasn't met a professional editors standard. We have still got one workstation fcp latest version running with snow leopard. The new workstation has Premiere, avid MC6 and perhaps Smoke 2013.
To us the workflow might be this:
Editing with MC 6 and still fcp7, finishing with Smoke 2013 (price has come down). I'm not a fan of Adobe Premiere, but the package contains Photoshop and after effects. Anybody tried Smoke on the NAB?

Rainer Wirth


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Brian Mulligan
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 10:20:05 am

I was one of the demo artist at NAB for Smoke2013. The eh angles in editorial makes it easier and more comfortable to simply edit and finish in Smoke at the same time.

But can still still conform XML or aaf and work with your prores and DNxHD or AMA media....but try editing in Smoke when the free pre-release trial comes out in June.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 1:02:55 pm

Hey, Brian?

Quick question for you. Does Smoke 2013 have XML out? AAF?

Sorry to bother you.

Jeremy

PS eh angles?


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Brian Mulligan
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 2:31:19 pm

If you are looking to go into Resolve, then I believe you can publish out a DPX sequence and round trip it. The software is still in Beta and a pre-release is set for June. So nothing is concrete right now.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 3:07:59 pm

[Brian Mulligan] "If you are looking to go into Resolve, then I believe you can publish out a DPX sequence and round trip it."

Not necessarily. I just need to pass clip based timeline media to other applications and keep the timing in tact, preferably with handles.

I know that Smoke is supposed to be the "end game" but I would also look at it to be the beginning, part out some of the middle, and bring it all back to the finish.

Looking forward to the demo.

Jeremy


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Bob Woodhead
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 3:08:04 pm

Brian, I'd like your opinion on using Smoke for effects work for what I'd call "eye candy" - effects and such to spice up an edit, not necessarily the "destination", if you will. For example, some of my work is corporate, where often it's not a complicated promo effects stack, just some glows, particles, sizzly transitions, the like. Back in the day on Quantel, I could get exactly the look I wanted, but it'd be a lengthy process of "designing" a unique effect. Fast forward a decade to FCP7, and tons of plugins, and it's simply "preview a few plugs, find something that's pretty close, and away we go". Sort of how I think of Motion vs AE; Motion is great for fast comps that look good, easy behaviors, etc, but if I need precise control I head over to AE. So while I don't think Motion is overall as good as AE, I'll often use it because it gives a decent fx look, quickly.

So in Smoke, I'm wondering if the "depth and finesse" would tend to slow down the "quick n' dirty eye candy" type of work, mostly relating to using 3rd party plugs in FCP/Motion/AE (often with many presets), where on Smoke, it's Genarts and....?

Caveat - I'm framing my question as a "one man band" workflow.

Thanks!

"Constituo, ergo sum"

Bob Woodhead / Atlanta
CMX-Quantel-Avid-FCP-Premiere-3D-AFX-Crayola
"What a long strange trip it's been...."


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Brian Mulligan
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 4:36:16 pm

Smoke can go either way with this. You can be a complex as you want and build a very unique effect with the Node Based ConnectFX right on a clip or as an adjustment layer in the timeline.

There are also some very nice presets for the Damage & Stylize nodes as well as 3D text animation presets and 3D lens flare presets.

You can save a complex effect that you created and easily recall it.

I jazz up my edits as well in promo-land. And I find that it's quick and easy to pipe a few nodes together for CC, and grain, and such. The speed and interactivity Smoke is known for, really shines when designing effect, as the results a close to real time, depending on the footage and effect.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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moody glasgow
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 4:37:25 pm

[Bob Woodhead] "So in Smoke, I'm wondering if the "depth and finesse" would tend to slow down the "quick n' dirty eye candy" type of work, mostly relating to using 3rd party plugs in FCP/Motion/AE (often with many presets), where on Smoke, it's Genarts and....? "

Autodesk has been adding presets to Smoke for a little while, and is still playing catchup to AE. For Sparks, its Genarts, Re:vision, Imagica and Sapphire. I might be missing something, but I can remember anymore... After Effects has a huge user base, and available plug ins.
If you want quick and easy canned effects, Smoke probable isn't for you. If you want something that has a great deal of depth, with great compositing and color correction built in, then Smoke is a better choice.
I know alot of people say they will just color correct in Resolve, but I find when you are doing compositing, you need a good corrector available when doing the composite.

moody glasgow
smoke/flame
http://www.thereelthinginc.com


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Greg Andonian
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 11:09:03 am

Rainer Wirth I'm not a fan of Adobe Premiere, but the package contains Photoshop and after effects. Anybody tried Smoke on the NAB?

Don't write off Premiere just yet- The CS6 version looks like a big step forward, and is getting a lot of praise.

The "all-in-one" approach that Smoke is taking seems interesting, but my gut tells me that Premiere CS6 or Avid will be a better choice when it comes to pure editing.

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Andrew Richards
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 12:46:50 pm

[Rainer Wirth] "one year has gone by, since FCPX was released."

Previewed. It was released on June 21st, 2011. It'll be a year in a couple months. If Apple hadn't been releasing meaningful feature updates to it every few months, I probably wouldn't split hairs on the release date. But they have been, so I think it is only fair to start the clock when they actually released it.

Best,
Andy


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Paul Jay
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 2:28:42 pm

Use it , try it and form own opinion...or not.


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Eric Santiago
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 2:41:25 pm

Avid editor for many years, love FCPX.
Feels like taking a shower under a waterfall in Hawaii compared to MC at times ;)
All kidding aside,they are both tools that we can all use.
If you cant afford Creative Suite or MC then take give it a try.
Its really a dollar a day when you think about it ;)


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Rainer Wirth
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 3:41:26 pm

Thanks a lot for your input.

Rainer



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Jamie Franklin
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 5:28:00 pm

[Eric Santiago] "Feels like taking a shower under a waterfall in Hawaii compared to MC at times ;)"

I think it would be fair to make that comparison to any NLE and Avid....


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Dustin Parsons
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 5:36:26 pm

I'm leaning towards Premiere for my company for a few reasons:
• I'm interested in FCPX but since Premiere has been used on everything from short-form to features and everything in-between I feel it's a safer bet for any work tossed at me at this point
• The demos of CS6 look like what I was hoping FCP8 would be
• I love AE and am really excited about Dynamic Link
• I work with a lot of freelance editors and have only found one that uses FCPX
• No matter how hard I try, I just can't get excited for AVID (sad because I started on AVID)


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Oliver Peters
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 6:00:33 pm

[Dustin Parsons] "Premiere has been used on everything from short-form to features"

Just a caution. In most cases - especially the high visibility features - Premiere was only used to conform files or as a conduit into AE. It's use as the full-fledged creative cutting tool is far less than the PR implies. I think that will change with CS6. I believe more film editors will give it a chance, but until now, features have been largely the domain of Media Composer and/or FCP "legacy".

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Heagy
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 6:37:21 pm

[Rainer Wirth] "To us, it hasn't met a professional editors standard."

Can you be more specific? I'm interested in understanding the difference between what doesn't work and what you simply don't like.

John Heagy


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Bret Williams
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 7:23:58 pm

Oh come on. Lack if tracks. Lack of viewer. TC overlay. Post Project Media Management. Lack of dynamic trimming. Lack of decent trimming in general. Tape ingest. Scopes and multicam at same time. Lack of drop shadow. Lack of soft edge crop. Lack of audio mixer. Lack of real keyframing tools (FCP 7 included). There are websites dedicated to the list. Things that just make an app more powerful and faster for certain functions and group workflows. It doesn't mean you could cut the next Emmy award winning documentary on it. But there needs to be some standards. You could cut TV on iMovie or Premiere Elements for that matter but it doesn't make them pro. I don't have a set definition of where the line is drawn, FCP X ain't there yet. If you don't need any of those features, then it's just as pro for you as an app that has them if you're not going to use them.


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John Heagy
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 7:56:59 pm

[Bret Williams] "Oh come on..."

Thanks for the list Bret, that's far better then letting websites communicate your wishes.

My question was for Rainier, maybe he agrees with your answer or maybe he has other wishes.

Don't expect Apple to "make it pro" if you don't list what you want. We are communicating specifics to Apple and, while we're not changing to FCPX or any other NLE for at least another year, we are happy with the progress so far.

Apple adds 4 to 5 features per update, so I'd be interested in your top 5. Believe me, Apple likes requests in short prioritized lists. Based on how they've responded so far... they are listening.

John Heagy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 9:20:00 pm

- More reliable/user controlled Project/Event backup system.
- "Show matte" on Color Mask selections
- Color Coded Roles
- Expand Audio shows all audio tracks, not a mix down
- Range based Project Export


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Richard Herd
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 10:10:15 pm

I'm screaming this one again: RANGE BASED EXPORT!! Maybe they can hear me in Cupertino.


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Oliver Peters
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 10:15:06 pm

Post your feature requests to Apple's feedback site.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

It's the only place they officially monitor. Posting them here is only venting.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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John Heagy
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 28, 2012 at 3:57:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "- More reliable/user controlled Project/Event backup system.
- "Show matte" on Color Mask selections
- Color Coded Roles
- Expand Audio shows all audio tracks, not a mix down
- Range based Project Export
"


Interesting list Jeremy. It points out how different people's needs are when it comes to FCPX.

I'm looking for foundational items before we start asking for edit features. My 5 are:

-Read embedded Reel/Tape ID in QT and export user defined reel in exported movies.
-Include an "xml export" metadata tab where whatever is selected is exported in the xml.
-Read only Xsan locations so other users can add the same location owned by another user.
-Include all ProRes codecs in the Project Render setting.
-Direct Renders where we want. Having renders be part of the Project location will blow up our Project volume and drastically impact our project backup policies.

I have one request for AV Foundation:

-Reference movie support so it can be added to FCPX.

John Heagy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 28, 2012 at 4:40:21 pm

[John Heagy] "I'm looking for foundational items before we start asking for edit features. My 5 are:"

I figure there's a ton of stuff thats missing foundationally, that Apple must be working on it. Perhaps it's naive. A peep in to the metadata list seems to point to a lot of future XML potential.

Also, with native MXF support and other roadmap features coming, it suggests a foundational beef-up to me.

So I'd rather request to fix the interface parts, and hope that Apple is constantly beefing up the foundation.


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Jules bowman
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 10:03:21 pm

Well, we're not. We're chatting amongst ourselves on the CC forum. And if Apple 'need' short 5 point lists to wrap their heads around its limitations....


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Bret Williams
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 27, 2012 at 11:45:15 pm

Then all is pretty much lost?


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David Powell
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 28, 2012 at 5:06:49 am

Seriously? There's no range based exports? You know the more I'm tempted to jump in and try X out, the more I get scared that simple things I've become accustomed to will be missing and making me tear my hair out. I've Been cutting on MC and I don't get you ex-avid users that hate it so much. Especially if you've used 5-6.


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Greg Andonian
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 28, 2012 at 2:15:11 am

John Heagy Don't expect Apple to "make it pro" if you don't list what you want.

But the thing about that is, it was ALREADY PRO before Apple butchered it...

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Rainer Wirth
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 29, 2012 at 11:35:01 am

At the present moment we are still with fcp7. We fiddle around with X, but really don't use it for serious work. We are trying Premiere and MC. Smoke is there as a powerful finishing tool. So, lets say fcpX doesn't develop in the near future, we will switch to a different workflow. And folks, you all know it, when this new workflow is set, we as a production house won't change it for at least five years. Why such a long time? We will organize everything around our workflow.
Here are the reasons:
Premiere has become very strong and powerful since 5.5
MC 6 is now a pure software, has come down in price and supports aja (our breakout boxes)
Autodesk will come down in price and supports the whole environment.
So within a six months time we will change the workflow. FCP will die out, the rest will grow. Tape is just on the edge, and even DVD will slowly disappear. 90 % of our work is done with file transfer and USB sticks. Our own workflow is tape free for nearly 9 years now.
What we need is a editing tool quick and easy with an exchange to a finishing tool with support of the artist series (Colour) and a strong chroma key.

Rainer



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Thomas Frank
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 28, 2012 at 9:39:30 am

Is your question asking if you should get FCPX?



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Miriam Lefkowitz
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 28, 2012 at 4:19:13 pm

FCPX is the only FCP program taught at the SVA film and video department in NYC. The dept. seems convinced apple is eventually going fix the major mistakes made with FCPX . The number of Avid classes has increased somewhat.


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Oliver Peters
Re: fcpx or not?
on Apr 28, 2012 at 4:34:24 pm

[Miriam Lefkowitz] "The dept. seems convinced apple is eventually going fix the major mistakes made with FCPX "

The reality is that they have no more advanced information about that than anyone on this forum. They are merely hoping.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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