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Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB

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Craig Seeman
Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 2:36:32 pm

Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
Evan's facility uses FCPX and Smoke amongst other tools









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Steve Connor
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 4:27:00 pm

"I for one welcome our new Blackmagic overlords"

Very enjoyable presentation

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 4:49:57 pm

It does give a bit of a picture of his awareness of other NLES (pre CS6 but MC6 and he knew where Smoke was going of course) and tidbits on why he has an FCPX bias.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 6:19:10 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It does give a bit of a picture of his awareness of other NLES (pre CS6 but MC6 and he knew where Smoke was going of course) and tidbits on why he has an FCPX bias."

His bias against the Windows platforms taints the presentation. I am guessing his comparisons of speed, etc. with both PPro and Avid were based with their use on a Mac, while it is well know that for PPro at least, Windows performance is much better. Once you account for his Mac bias, the presentation was informative.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 6:32:15 pm

Puffin.

Puffin!


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 6:40:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "His bias against the Windows platforms taints the presentation"

Only tainted if you're looking for objectivity. He's explaining what impacts him and it ranges from OS to GUI to tech features. Of course that can hold true for all of us but for each of use, we rate the mix differently.

BTW note how much he emphasized the importance of GPU yet apparently the more limited Mac GPU options don't override he's preference for Mac OS. Obviously some would rank GPU higher than OS. He does explain briefly why he prefers Mac OS over Windows and notes that inside the app, it makes no visible difference (GUI and functions . . . not speed of function).

While it's clear I like FCPX and Mac OS, given the variety of work I do, I can't live without Windows.

As to PPRo, as they move to include OpenCL support the differences may decrease . . . although even that might mean the user wants a bit more flexibility in choosing the GPU.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 6:48:57 pm

[Craig Seeman] "He's explaining what impacts him and it ranges from OS to GUI to tech features. "

"Using windows is like tying one hand behind your back and hitting yourself in the face with your other hand."

That line, while colorful and funny, tells me he's only using Windows when he absolutely has to, and it limit's my interest in what he has to say. I did listen to the whole spiel and found it of some value, but when he says something that moronic, it does argue against the value of his perceptions.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 7:26:31 pm

[Herb Sevush] "That line, while colorful and funny, tells me he's only using Windows when he absolutely has to, and it limit's my interest in what he has to say. I did listen to the whole spiel and found it of some value, but when he says something that moronic, it does argue against the value of his perceptions."

Why? Some people prefer Windows to Mac OS and some people prefer Mac OS to Windows. Neither is "moronic." He mentioned that there's no issue when one is inside the app so it's really specific to OS functions and . . . he doesn't like them on Windows. It's not clear that he's just referring to UI (Windows 7 UI is pretty good even coming from my Mac favoritism). I can't speak for him but I think trouble shooting Mac issues are easier and if downtime is a concern, I can see that resulting in a very strong bias that some (and certainly not others) may feel.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 7:39:20 pm

[Craig Seeman] ". I can't speak for him but I think trouble shooting Mac issues are easier and if downtime is a concern, I can see that resulting in a very strong bias that some (and certainly not others) may feel."

I agree that the Mac is somewhat easier to maintain and deal with. I have to weigh that against the PC's superior GPU choices and greater customization possibilities, and also the greater variety of software available.

But yours was not Evan's position, he said that ... well lets not go into that again. He used the language of a 12 year old Apple fanboy. He didn't use that type of juvenile description for any other company in his 80 minute talk. He even mentioned JVC without directly insulting them, and trust me that's hard to do. So it's obvious he has some strong adolescent emotional thing going on with his Apple affliction, and that limits the value of his perceptions for me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:00:38 pm

[Herb Sevush] "He used the language of a 12 year old Apple fanboy."

I think it was his attempt at humor. It's also possible that he's had a couple of serious downtime issues to the point where he detests windows. I can understand if that where based on maintenance experience. As UI goes, I think Windows 7 is fine. We all have our pet peeves. Windows is his. That does mean one has to assume he's only talking about Mac versions when he's talking about cross platform since he doesn't see great value in cross platform.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:30:35 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think it was his attempt at humor. It's also possible that he's had a couple of serious downtime issues to the point where he detests windows. I can understand if that where based on maintenance experience. As UI goes, I think Windows 7 is fine. We all have our pet peeves. Windows is his. That does mean one has to assume he's only talking about Mac versions when he's talking about cross platform since he doesn't see great value in cross platform."

It seems he doesn't know as much about the other NLEs as he wants to make people believe. Media Composer handles 4K? What? He even put that up on the presentation slide? And then he talks about all the different formats their edits consist of, including ripps from Blu-ray. The only NLE on the Mac that can handle h264 high profile is... Premiere.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:07:59 pm

I think he mentioned or alluded to limited experience with Media Composer. I don't doubt that someone demo'd it to him and with his talks to other facility managers, he just wasn't interested.

[Frank Gothmann] "The only NLE on the Mac that can handle h264 high profile is... Premiere."

Have you tested in FCPX?
I've thrown a lot of H264 at it but I'll check on High Profile specifically.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:21:37 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think he mentioned or alluded to limited experience with Media Composer. I don't doubt that someone demo'd it to him and with his talks to other facility managers, he just wasn't interested."

Could be, but if I am going on stage presenting the state of current NLEs I'd actually look at, use and work with the apps rather than rely on hearsay.
I mean, I am not trying to bash him or anything, but it's a paid sales gig by a Mac centric vendor so I take such presentations with a grain of salt.

[Craig Seeman] "Have you tested in FCPX?
I've thrown a lot of H264 at it but I'll check on High Profile specifically."


Not with 10.0.4. Don't have it. The last version I tried was the 10.0.3 trial and it couldn't handle it. There is also no way to play those files back under OSX apart from some under-the-rader open source tools that rely on ffmpeg.
Let me know if it works. I'd be pleasantly surprised if it does.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jim Giberti
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:40:39 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Not with 10.0.4. Don't have it. The last version I tried was the 10.0.3 trial and it couldn't handle it. There is also no way to play those files back under OSX apart from some under-the-rader open source tools that rely on ffmpeg.
Let me know if it works. I'd be pleasantly surprised if it does."


It does Frank, in 1.0.3. I just finished a pretty detailed short using all h.264 directly in the timeline and it edited flawlessly.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:46:54 pm

[Jim Giberti] "
It does Frank, in 1.0.3. I just finished a pretty detailed short using all h.264 directly in the timeline and it edited flawlessly.
"


There are different flavours of h264. Are you sure it's high profile. Basically, use the Blu-ray preset from compressor, encode something with it and see if X can digest it.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jim Giberti
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:10:01 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "There are different flavours of h264. Are you sure it's high profile. Basically, use the Blu-ray preset from compressor, encode something with it and see if X can digest it."

I wouldn't need to do that.

It's h.264 as most of us use it - right out of the camera. In this case 5D IIs, files dumped right from the CF cards onto Macs and edited directly into the timeline in FCPX.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:19:07 pm

[Jim Giberti] "It's h.264 as most of us use it - right out of the camera. In this case 5D IIs, files dumped right from the CF cards onto Macs and edited directly into the timeline in FCPX."

Yes, but that a very different kind of h264. Most NLEs can handle that. My post was specifically with regards to blu-ray h264 (files which are high profile 4.1) as par Mr. Schechtman's statement. I have to work with such files very, very often btw. Without PP/Adobe Media Encoder I'd have a problem.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Jim Giberti
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:24:32 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Yes, but that a very different kind of h264. Most NLEs can handle that. My post was specifically with regards to blu-ray h264 (files which are high profile 4.1) as par Mr. Schechtman's statement. I have to work with such files very, very often btw. Without PP/Adobe Media Encoder I'd have a problem.
"


That I wouldn't know, we never work with blu-ray files. We transcode everything to Pro Res but I tried working natively with camera h.264 files and was surprised at how well X did with them.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:53:53 pm

[Jim Giberti] "That I wouldn't know, we never work with blu-ray files. We transcode everything to Pro Res but I tried working natively with camera h.264 files and was surprised at how well X did with them."

The Canon 5D Mark II shoots in AVCHD @ 17Mbps (I belive)... h.264 High Profile 4.1 for Blu-ray tops out @ 36 Mbps. I could be wrong here, so hopefully someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

Shawn



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Steve Connor
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:30:39 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Yes, but that a very different kind of h264. Most NLEs can handle that. My post was specifically with regards to blu-ray h264 (files which are high profile 4.1) as par Mr. Schechtman's statement. I have to work with such files very, very often btw. Without PP/Adobe Media Encoder I'd have a problem.
"


I've tried this with some recent Blu-ray encodes and FCPX won't even let me import them.

As a matter of interest why do you get files in this format?

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:36:54 pm

[Steve Connor] "As a matter of interest why do you get files in this format?"

We do a lot of blu-ray authoring jobs (feature film) and we quite often get jobs where client wants changes to older discs (or double/tripple features, or lower age ratings which require cuts for rerelease, or different trailers etc.). They often don't have the original masters anymore (mostly SR tapes which were on loan) so we have to work from their checkdiscs and dig the avc files out of the bdmv folder.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Steve Connor
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:39:23 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "We do a lot of blu-ray authoring jobs (feature film) and we quite often get jobs where client wants changes to older discs (or double/tripple features, or lower age ratings which require cuts for rerelease, or different trailers etc.). They often don't have the original masters anymore (mostly SR tapes which were on loan) so we have to work from their checkdiscs and dig the avc files out of the bdmv folder."

Ok, that makes sense, does the quality hold up well when you re-encode them back for release

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:50:05 pm

[Steve Connor] "Ok, that makes sense, does the quality hold up well when you re-encode them back for release"

Surprisingly well, depending on the source material and the encoder. Compressor does a pretty bad good job with film grain or noise present so we don't use it for avc encoding; there's also no segment based reencoding plus it's slow as it doesn't allow clustering for avc coding. It's usually avc to dnxhd, cineform (soon probably Canopus HQX) or DPX if there is image cleanup involved and then off to reencoding. Bit crazy, I know, would be a lot easier from the original tape.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Steve Connor
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:51:54 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Surprisingly well, depending on the source material and the encoder. Compressor does a pretty bad good job with film grain or noise present so we don't use it for avc encoding; there's also no segment based reencoding plus it's slow as it doesn't allow clustering for avc coding. It's usually avc to dnxhd, cineform (soon probably Canopus HQX) or DPX if there is image cleanup involved and then off to reencoding. Bit crazy, I know, would be a lot easier from the original tape."

Thanks, it's good to know that it holds up well, we have a number of projects over the last couple of years where Blu-rays are the only masters we now have.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:49:04 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Not with 10.0.4. Don't have it. The last version I tried was the 10.0.3 trial and it couldn't handle it. "

OS 10.6.8
FCPX 10.0.4
H264 1920x1080 HighProfile@L4.0 CABAC .mp4

FCPX handles like a champ.
QT 10.0. plays it as well.
QT 7.6.6 as well too.

Checked the file in MediaInfo to confirm that it's really High Profile.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:52:52 pm

[Craig Seeman] "H264 1920x1080 HighProfile@L4.0 CABAC .mp4"

It has to be 4.1 high profile to be blu-ray compliant. Can you try that? Use the compressor preset for blu-ray. File extension should be .264 or .avc depending on what encoder you use. Thanks for trying.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 11:24:54 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "[Craig Seeman] "H264 1920x1080 HighProfile@L4.0 CABAC .mp4"

It has to be 4.1 high profile to be blu-ray compliant. Can you try that? Use the compressor preset for blu-ray. File extension should be .264 or .avc depending on what encoder you use. Thanks for trying.
"



Tested on the same system with a different file that was HighProfile@L4.1 CABAC. Data rate of the file was 20,000kbps VBR.
File played in FCPX

BTW the H.264 encoder is MainConcept if it makes a difference . . . and it might.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 11:40:30 pm

[Craig Seeman] "BTW the H.264 encoder is MainConcept if it makes a difference . . . and it might"

Can you post the settings or a screenshot of your seetings? Curious!

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 12:07:04 am

[Frank Gothmann] "Can you post the settings or a screenshot of your seetings? Curious!"

In Telestream Episode 6.2.2
2 Pass VBR 20,000Kbps
Entropy CABAC
Natural and Forced Keyframes (so it's not a "true" blu-ray GOP.
KF interval 100
Adaptive b frames
1 B-frame
5 Reference Frames
Profile High
Color Space 420
IDR Every I Frame
Level 4.1

I notice I left one thing out. I need
Force headers for every GOP
That's required for Blu-ray compatibility so I need to do that to emulate a Blu-ray encode.

On the other hand Compressor 4.0.3 Blu-Ray encoding (.h264) can't be played in QT (any) or FCPX.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 12:38:03 am

[Craig Seeman] "I notice I left one thing out. I need
Force headers for every GOP
That's required for Blu-ray compatibility so I need to do that to emulate a Blu-ray encode.

On the other hand Compressor 4.0.3 Blu-Ray encoding (.h264) can't be played in QT (any) or FCPX."


Thanks for the effort, I appreciate it.
Ah, Episode, from what I know the encodes can be used for self-burned discs with some apps but they won't pass Sony or Eclipse verification for replicaton (same for Matrox's Compress HD card). Does Episode actually produce proper elementary streams? The spec sheet on their site only lists transport. If so, that's very likely the reason why it plays but those streams cannot be used for authoring.
http://www.telestream.net/pdfs/datasheets/EpisodeSeries_Format_Support.pdf

None of the encoders I know that do produce compliant elementary streams work in X, ie. compressor, adobe media encoder, squeeze, mainconcept reference, netblender or cinemacraft.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 12:53:11 am

[Frank Gothmann] "Ah, Episode, from what I know the encodes can be used for self-burned discs with some apps but they won't pass Sony or Eclipse verification for replicaton (same for Matrox's Compress HD card)."

True Episode's won't pass verification for replication. Of course legally one shouldn't be ripping those discs.

[Frank Gothmann] "None of the encoders I know that do produce compliant elementary streams work in X, ie. compressor, adobe media encoder, squeeze, mainconcept reference, netblender or cinemacraft."

Probably AVFoundation is not handling it (Quicktime certainly won't ever). We may have to see where Apple goes with it. FWIW Avid and Adobe both have built in alternatives to Quicktime. This may be another example where Apple, having been tied to Quicktime for so long and started on AVFoundation for iOS, may be far behind on.

Not too unrelated to that I've had recent requests for H.264 422 color space for broadcast spot delivery and this too is something that isn't handled last I tested.



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Jeremy Garchow
OT: For Craig
on Apr 25, 2012 at 1:12:09 am

Craig, I was having issues with Episode 6 and mp4 today.

Do you hang out in a more appropriate forum for some questions?

I know you're the mp4 man.

Thanks.


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Craig Seeman
Re: OT: For Craig
on Apr 25, 2012 at 1:17:49 am

COW Telestream Episode forum
or you could go to Telestream's own support forum. I don't want to steer people away from COW unless you feel this is an urgent issue.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OT: For Craig
on Apr 25, 2012 at 1:41:48 am

Moooving over there, thanks.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 7:03:13 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Only tainted if you're looking for objectivity. "

I think this is my single favorite quote of the year so far.


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Jim Giberti
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:43:15 pm

[Chris Harlan] "[Craig Seeman] "Only tainted if you're looking for objectivity. "

I think this is my single favorite quote of the year so far."


Yeah that objectivity thing is so overrated Chris.


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Andrew Richards
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 7:43:25 pm

[Craig Seeman] "As to PPRo, as they move to include OpenCL support the differences may decrease . . . although even that might mean the user wants a bit more flexibility in choosing the GPU."

CUDA had a significant head start as a proprietary technology, but OpenCL should see pretty rapid adoption and development. We are beginning to see that in the market now. OpenCL is sponsored by some rather important industry players, including NVIDIA, which chairs the OpenCL working group.

Best,
Andy


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:04:08 pm

[Andrew Richards] "CUDA had a significant head start as a proprietary technology, but OpenCL should see pretty rapid adoption and development."

That's why Adobe's first steps in the area are important. I do think the performance gap will close a bit over time as a result.



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Jack Guthrey
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 6:30:27 pm

I'm interested in why they went FCPX (I contend it's X not "Ten" - "Ten" requires an "Eight") when Avid MC6 received heaps more praise.

Overall a very good presentation, he illuminated his bias and did a fairly thorough job of outlining each NLE. It seems the final "answer" is the one typically spouted on these boards; "Different tools for different purposes."


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 6:52:48 pm

[Jack Guthrey] "I'm interested in why they went FCPX (I contend it's X not "Ten" - "Ten" requires an "Eight") when Avid MC6 received heaps more praise."

Maybe he's not direct but he alludes to that in his presentation in his criticisms of MC6. It seems to around the rigidity of the workflow. I've personally used Avid for its first 12 years of existence as an editor, engineer and trainer (to some extent) and that rigidity is one of the reasons I'm not interested in jumping back to it. They've made outstanding improvements and Symphony at $999 as a crossgrade is a spectacular bargain but, for me, the core of what makes Avid and Avid is something I don't wont to work with.

Evan didn't grow up on Avid as I did so I can imagine it's "paradigm" is that much more difficult and as a facility manager, problem something he doesn't want to invest in as far as implementation goes.

There is one thing a facility manager may have to contend with that apparently isn't a major concern for Evan. That's the freelancer pool available. Obviously there is a large pool of excellent Avid freelancers. So one's decision as to which NLE to go to may involve the talented resource pool.

In Evan's case, he had mentioned to me in the early days he had 30 seats of FCPX and they weren't being used for paying jobs. One might surmise that his approach was to start people training early on FCPX before it was up to the feature development that would allow him to implement.



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Jack Guthrey
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 6:56:15 pm

That is true though he seemingly praised Avid's rigidity at the same time (I may have perceived that as it's one of the reasons I like Avid). He did mention that Avid has a huge pool of freelancers but it wasn't clear if that drives many decisions in their shop (I'm guessing no).


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Craig Seeman
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 7:20:24 pm

[Jack Guthrey] "He did mention that Avid has a huge pool of freelancers but it wasn't clear if that drives many decisions in their shop (I'm guessing no)."

I think that's why he had 30 seats of FCPX from the start. His approach was to develop the talent pool internally.

[Jack Guthrey] "he seemingly praised Avid's rigidity at the same time"

Curious where you saw that in his presentation. He did bring up the Smart Tool though. I got the impression he felt Avid was a good editing system but rigid in other ways (at least based on his shop's needs).



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:43:40 pm

His uses and views are very similar to how I feel about this whole situation. While @RadicalMedia is much bigger and does much "higher end" visible work than we do, the methodologies are the same. We do not use Smoke, but the whole workflow looks very familiar as well as the thought and process behind them.

I will also say that I feel the same way about his observations on the different NLEs.

This is a user's perspective. This is what I like it about it, we are speaking the same language, cuss words and all. If you need the marketing speak, there's tons of it. Everywhere. And sure, we now know he's had the advantage of getting sneak peeks at future tech versions.

This is not a corporate stand up; this is not specifically attuned to one company or product and he obviously has a preference as any user typically does. I think a lot of his observations are spot on, probably because I agree with them, and I could see how this presentation might not be beneficial to the sizzle core crowd.

His overall point is not about screaming performance, or what I like to refer to as sizzle cores, but it's more about interconnectivity, collaboration, and fast drives on smaller computers, even if you have to use hot glue every once in a while to make it "professional".

The overall capability has increased with "lesser power" or perhaps more portable machines. I guess it's all about how you slice it. Flexibility and portability might not be important to everyone, but I will tell you it is to me personally, more and more, especially for the near future. And really, that Thunderbolt graphic tells it all. People keep harping on bandwidth, and yes it's true you can crowd the bandwidth of Thunderbolt, but with another controller, you won't. Yes, there's GPU concerns, but how many MacPro people are running multiple GPUs today, honestly? PC people, who has really bought a Tesla system in these forums for your NLE?

Thanks for posting this, Craig.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:54:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Flexibility and portability might not be important to everyone, but I will tell you it is to me personally, more and more, especially for the near future."

I understand the portability side of this but what do you mean by flexibility. To me flexibility means you can do anything with something, and in that case a tower is much more flexible than a MBpro. Obviously you mean something else by flexibility, can you elaborate?

[Jeremy Garchow] " how many MacPro people are running multiple GPUs today, honestly? PC people, who has really bought a Tesla system in these forums for your NLE? "

I haven't yet but it's tempting. Maybe if I don't buy an Ipad and a MBpro I could afford it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:11:20 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I understand the portability side of this but what do you mean by flexibility. To me flexibility means you can do anything with something, and in that case a tower is much more flexible than a MBpro. Obviously you mean something else by flexibility, can you elaborate?"

As we talked about the other night, day, or whatever, it's how you define flexibility.

We move around. We shoot and edit. Right now we have desktop based suites and laptop based mobiles.

The laptops can connect to our SAN via Gig ethernet, and they get just fine performance, but big file transfers take a while, and you can feel the performance hit. The Thunderbolt methodology allows you to have fast storage connect to our portable machines, and it also allows you to carry video monitoring with us. Right now we have a separate systems for our desktops, and separate systems for our laptops. A thunderbolt system will allow us to connect all of our systems together. The non thunderbolt computers will still be fibre, and have their Konas that tie on to the patch bay. Future thunderbolt machines, especially with the optical cable for longer runs will allow them to patch in to this architecture as well, and when we are done, we can take it all with us and attach to fast local storage on the road.

Will we be able to hook up a $1-5k tesla GPU system? No, I already can't do that, and frankly, who cares. I personally don't need at this stage in the game.

So, I guess my question to you is, how do you see this as restrictive or not flexible?

[Herb Sevush] "I haven't yet but it's tempting. Maybe if I don't buy an Ipad and a MBpro I could afford it."

Tempting for what? Just curious, and I know I've asked this before, but how much bandwidth (or in this case GPU) do you need? For your particular business, how would a tesla gpu help you?

I would trade a bit of GPU power for having more connectivity, but that's just me and it might not fit everyone's needs.

Jeremy


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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:45:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Just curious, and I know I've asked this before, but how much bandwidth (or in this case GPU) do you need? For your particular business, how would a tesla gpu help you?"

In my business portability means absolutely nothing. I edit in my office, I need large screens to see all the little multi-cam windows. I don't edit in the field, on-site or in a starbucks. I've never had enough bandwidth, I've always wanted more, I'll gladly give up portability to get more.

For me flexibility means I can edit anything that gets thrown at me, including tape sources, and output anything asked of me, including tape sources, and never have to wait a moment for rendering, no matter how many effects I stack on a clip, or how many angles I'm cutting with. I want to output all my my digital files at 100x normal speed. Until I get there, my system's too slow.

I understand that my needs are not yours, we put emphasis on different things. I can appreciate why a TBolt FCPX metadata future is perfect for some; it's not that I don't see the value in a lot of these things, it's just that they are much lower on my priority scale.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:47:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "In my business portability means absolutely nothing. I edit in my office, I need large screens to see all the little multi-cam windows. I don't edit in the field, on-site or in a starbucks. I've never had enough bandwidth, I've always wanted more, I'll gladly give up portability to get more.

For me flexibility means I can edit anything that gets thrown at me, including tape sources, and output anything asked of me, including tape sources, and never have to wait a moment for rendering, no matter how many effects I stack on a clip, or how many angles I'm cutting with. I want to output all my my digital files at 100x normal speed. Until I get there, my system's too slow.

I understand that my needs are not yours, we put emphasis on different things. I can appreciate why a TBolt FCPX metadata future is perfect for some; it's not that I don't see the value in a lot of these things, it's just that they are much lower on my priority scale."


So why have you been using FCP this whole time?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:56:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So why have you been using FCP this whole time?"

I haven't, FCP is my third NLE. EMC, *edit, FCP (with a quick audition of Premiere just as it became PPro 1.0). Avid has been too expensive and I find it slow going, especially cutting in the timeline. The original PPro had some of the problems FCPX has with audio so while I tried it, I stopped using it. I've never been in love with Final Cut, it was just the best price performance option up til now. The X of what I want has never crossed the Y of what I can afford, but I know where my priorities are.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:00:18 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The X of what I want has never crossed the Y of what I can afford, but I know where my priorities are."

I see. So you haven't found it yet.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:15:32 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So you haven't found it yet."

It's a bit like El Dorado - I don't expect to get there but I know the direction I'm heading towards.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 10:19:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "It's a bit like El Dorado - I don't expect to get there but I know the direction I'm heading towards."

I hear you.

Before you drop $8ish-k on a Windows tower, and another couple of grand on a tesla, make sure that it's going to help playback.

Jeremy


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Jack Guthrey
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:56:02 pm

I don't remember the exact positioning now (I've had lunch since then...) but I thought he said something about how the rigidity is what beings along robustness.

I may have heard criticism as praise though as my opinion is that a rigid workflow is a smart workflow.


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Richard Herd
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:51:26 pm

I say "EX" too, not 10


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:53:28 pm

[Jack Guthrey] "I'm interested in why they went FCPX (I contend it's X not "Ten" - "Ten" requires an "Eight") when Avid MC6 received heaps more praise."

Yep, just like Quicktime 8.

Oh wait...


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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:58:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yep, just like Quicktime 8."

Hey, the Apple role out was perfect and they're all marketing geniuses; since they were the ones to label it FCP X, they must have known what people would call it. If they wanted us to call it FCP 10 then that's how they should have promoted it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Herb Sevush
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 8:58:43 pm

They didn't call it Quicktime VIII.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 9:13:30 pm

[Herb Sevush] "They didn't call it Quicktime VIII."

That's because is never came, but it was Quicktime X for a good while. Recently, it's simply "Quicktime Player".


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Richard Cardonna
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 11:37:26 pm

So Dos XX beer is really Dos 20 beer? Naugh

And xxx filme are 30 films?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 24, 2012 at 11:58:00 pm

[Richard Cardonna] "So Dos XX beer is really Dos 20 beer? Naugh

And xxx filme are 30 films?
"


I often say "eff, see, pee, ex", but I also shorthand it to just "ten".


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Richard Cardonna
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 12:06:30 am

Don't worry its me being fasicious. hmm a 30film with 20 beer. I prefer a 20 beer


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 12:09:48 am

[Richard Cardonna] "Don't worry its me being fasicious. hmm a 30film with 20 beer. I prefer a 20 beer
"


:)


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Richard Herd
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 7:33:36 pm

How many 30 films are edited in 10 (while drinking 20)?


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John Heagy
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 3:04:55 am

I hole heartily agree with Evan on the negatives of the RAW/native workflow touted by Adobe. As the deadline nears is when you need the system to be fastest and get the product out without hassles. The time saved by not transcoding to a common codec will be forgotten. The issues and time required to render, with the deadline and impatient client looming, is what will be foremost. A common optimized codec will help with media playback and speed export. This is why Adobe's lack of it's own optimized codec is a big disadvantage for me.

We can take some time on the front end if it speeds up the back end. There's rarely time to spare or patience toward the end of a project.

Apple and Avid would seem to agree on this point.

John


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Erik Lundberg
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 6:54:33 pm

Evan is a really good speaker, and seems to be all over at the moment, and I agree on quite a few of his views. But I swear, if I never EVER have to hear him (or anyone) use the phrase 'change agent', I would be quite happy. He's used up his quota, for sure.

Erik Lundberg

Technical Director, Media Technology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 7:01:20 pm

Paradigm. Oy.


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Erik Lundberg
Re: Evan Schechtman @RadicalMedia - The State of the NLE - recorded a few days before NAB
on Apr 25, 2012 at 7:26:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Paradigm. Oy."

Oh. And that.

Erik Lundberg

Technical Director, Media Technology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden


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