FORUMS: list search recent posts

Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 2:37:21 pm

Desktop class CPUs now, reportedly the low power mobile variety is still en route. New iMacs seem like the most likely Mac destination, as they are the only Apple products presently using Intel's desktop-class Core iX CPUs.

And lest anyone think there is Mac Pro connection here, there isn't. Unless the successor to the Mac Pro we have today abandons Xeon chips, it won't be built on Ivy Bridge CPUs. Dig this slide from Intel's most recent public roadmap (screen-grabbed for posterity since Intel will swap out the PDF on the other end of that link some day).



Best,
Andy

EDIT: MacRumors thinks today's crop would be suitable for 15" and 17" MacBook Pros. If there even is a new 17"...


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 3:25:25 pm

so is the short answer that we won't know the fate of the Mac Pro until the Xeons come out right? Because that is the Mac Pro chip? Is it the thing that the Mac Pro is effectively delayed (if it isn't cancelled) because the xeons are pretty late?

And did someone say there would be no xeons in the channel until 3d quarter this year? Or have I got this all wrong..

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index


Chris Harlan
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:14:50 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "so is the short answer that we won't know the fate of the Mac Pro until the Xeons come out right? "

I guess that's true. I thought we knew with Sandy Bridge, but this Ivy Bridge release is so close on the heels, that there might be a bit of hope. Of course, the rumors today of the eol for the 17" Macbook Pro don't help:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/23/apple-predicted-to-discontinue-17-inch-...


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:20:59 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I thought we knew with Sandy Bridge, but this Ivy Bridge release is so close on the heels, that there might be a bit of hope."

Sandy Bridge launched over a year ago. It is only the Sandy Bridge E5 Xeon lineup that launched last month. Intel ships their high-volume Core series chips much earlier than it does Xeons utilizing the same manufacturing process. Intel's roadmap for the Xeon only has it getting the Ivy Bridge treatment in 2013.

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:32:41 pm

[Andrew Richards] "[Chris Harlan] "I thought we knew with Sandy Bridge, but this Ivy Bridge release is so close on the heels, that there might be a bit of hope."

Sandy Bridge launched over a year ago. It is only the Sandy Bridge E5 Xeon lineup that launched last month. "


Yes, of course. We're talking about Xeons. What else would we be talking about with Mac Pros?

[Andrew Richards] "Intel ships their high-volume Core series chips much earlier than it does Xeons utilizing the same manufacturing process. Intel's roadmap for the Xeon only has it getting the Ivy Bridge treatment in 2013."

That's what I thought, too. But the news is all over the place today about an Ivy Bridge Xeon release in June.


Return to posts index


Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:35:29 pm

[Chris Harlan] "That's what I thought, too. But the news is all over the place today about an Ivy Bridge Xeon release in June."

Link?

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:40:45 pm

[Andrew Richards] "[Chris Harlan] "That's what I thought, too. But the news is all over the place today about an Ivy Bridge Xeon release in June."

Link?
"


You've heard of Google, right?

But try this:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/12/intel-plans-ivy-bridge-based-xeon-e3s-an...


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:42:56 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially."

For continuity's sake:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/32307

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index


Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:15:20 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "so is the short answer that we won't know the fate of the Mac Pro until the Xeons come out right? Because that is the Mac Pro chip? Is it the thing that the Mac Pro is effectively delayed (if it isn't cancelled) because the xeons are pretty late?"

There are a lot of variables. Apple could pivot on what a Mac Pro is, even what it is called. If we limit our speculation to what has thus far been true of all Mac Pro interations (Xeon CPUs, tower form factor made up chiefly of Intel parts), then we can safely say there will not be an Ivy Bridge Mac Pro in 2012. The new Xeons are Sandy Bridge, and they just launched last month (following considerable delays). The Sandy Bridge Xeons are officially known as the E5-2600 series, at least the variety that can be had in dual proc systems. E3-1200 series chips have been around since late 2011, but are limited to single-CPU deployment. The E5-2600 series is the successor to the E5500/E5600 series Xeons found in the 2010-present Mac Pro.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "And did someone say there would be no xeons in the channel until 3d quarter this year? Or have I got this all wrong.."

The E5-2600 series officially launched at the beginning of March, about six weeks ago. HP's announced Z820 will use them, and if a new Mac Pro is to exist and follow convention, it will as well.

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:22:11 pm

Today's riddle.

Go try and price an HP z820 on hp.com

What a mind screw.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:25:13 pm

Isn't their site a train wreck? You have to know how to finesse it to get to where you can configure a system. Here is a link.

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:29:10 pm

[Andrew Richards] "Isn't their site a train wreck? You have to know how to finesse it to get to where you can configure a system. Here is a link."

Train wreck is one way to describe it, yes.

Insult to injury. Look at this link:



link.png

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:33:21 pm

Maybe the COW chewed up my href'd link. Here it is, in its unadulterated glory:

http://www7.hp.com/dstore/ctoBases.asp?oi=E9CED&BEID=19701&SBLID=&ProductLi...'>http://h71016.http://www7.hp.com/dstore/ctoBases.asp?oi=E9CED&BEID=19701&SBLID=&ProductLi...

And just in case, unparsed:

http://h71016.www7.hp.com/dstore/ctoBases.asp?oi=E9CED&BEID=19701&SBLID=&ProductLineId=534&FamilyId=3551&LowBaseId=&LowPrice=&familyviewgroup=3328&viewtype=Matrix

Best,
Andy

EDIT: good grief, nothing will let the link paste properly. HP sucks at the Internet.


Return to posts index

Phil Hoppes
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:22:16 pm

Sandy Bridge 8 core Xenon CPU's are already out. I can buy them today

I can't see a MacPro coming out. Heck rumors are now flying that the 17" MBP is dead too. If these unit volumes are correct, and I would guess they are, MacPro towers certainly fall in the same catagory. Apple wants to sell millions of units not thousands.


Return to posts index


Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:31:14 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "Sandy Bridge 8 core Xenon CPU's are already out. I can buy them today."

Parts, yes. Complete system from HP, ships in May.

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:35:51 pm

[Andrew Richards] "[Phil Hoppes] "Sandy Bridge 8 core Xenon CPU's are already out. I can buy them today."

Parts, yes. Complete system from HP, ships in May.

Best,
Andy"


And, apparently, Ivy Bridge Xeons are supposed to ship in June.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:37:40 pm

I think it's safe to say that this is all a huge mess?


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:41:31 pm

[Chris Harlan] "And, apparently, Ivy Bridge Xeons are supposed to ship in June."

Those are the E3 series. Sandy Bridge E3 has been out for a year. The E5 series is what would go into a Mac Pro or any other dual CPU box. Those will be a while...

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:44:57 pm

[Andrew Richards] "[Chris Harlan] "And, apparently, Ivy Bridge Xeons are supposed to ship in June."

Those are the E3 series. Sandy Bridge E3 has been out for a year. The E5 series is what would go into a Mac Pro or any other dual CPU box. Those will be a while...
"


Fair enough. So E3 would not be used? So we can go back to "Why aren't they using Sandy Bridge?" The distinction of individual Xeon lines is something the eludes me.


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:52:59 pm

[Chris Harlan] "So E3 would not be used?"

The big difference is E3 does not support dual sockets (dual CPUs). The predecessor to the E3, the 3000 series, was never used in a Mac Pro. Apple could use it, but it would mean the Mac Pro (or whatever) would be going down-market from where it has been thus far.

[Chris Harlan] "So we can go back to "Why aren't they using Sandy Bridge?""

That's the waiting game. HP will ship theirs next month. Probably other OEMs too. In 2010, it took Apple till July to refresh the Mac Pro, despite suitable 5000 series Xeons hitting the market that March.

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 11:45:47 pm

[Andrew Richards] "The big difference is E3 does not support dual sockets (dual CPUs). The predecessor to the E3, the 3000 series, was never used in a Mac Pro. Apple could use it, but it would mean the Mac Pro (or whatever) would be going down-market from where it has been thus far."

Although it'll probably happen eventually. If Intel has a 12 core processor available in a couple of years, will Apple really still feel the need to make a dual processor (i.e. 24 core) machine? There's a big price bump to go dual processor; at some point single CPU performance will be so high it won't really make sense even for most of the Mac Pro's demographic.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 12:27:06 am

[Chris Kenny] "Although it'll probably happen eventually. If Intel has a 12 core processor available in a couple of years, will Apple really still feel the need to make a dual processor (i.e. 24 core) machine? There's a big price bump to go dual processor; at some point single CPU performance will be so high it won't really make sense even for most of the Mac Pro's demographic."

You've just made the case to cancel the Mac Pro. If no one needs something more powerful (and necessarily more expensive) than a single processor, then the top end iMac is all anyone needs.

Isn't the demographic for the Mac Pro the professional Mac user who really needs the most computing power they can reasonably stuff into a mass-market box?

For decades, we've been able to do things with lesser boxes that used to take bleeding edge rigs only a few years earlier. What makes 2012 the year that our expectations plateau?

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 12:51:38 am

[Andrew Richards] "You've just made the case to cancel the Mac Pro. If no one needs something more powerful (and necessarily more expensive) than a single processor, then the top end iMac is all anyone needs. "

I'm not sure we're quite there yet, and in any event CPU isn't the only compelling advantage of the Mac Pro -- internal expansion (particularly PCIe slots) is also important. (Though that probably won't be true if Intel's plans to ramp 100 Gb/s Thunderbolt pan out.)

[Andrew Richards] "Isn't the demographic for the Mac Pro the professional Mac user who really needs the most computing power they can reasonably stuff into a mass-market box? "

I think the issue is that at some point, as CPU performance keeps increasing, dual socket towers won't be any more "mass-market" than refrigerator-sized computers are today.

[Andrew Richards] "For decades, we've been able to do things with lesser boxes that used to take bleeding edge rigs only a few years earlier. What makes 2012 the year that our expectations plateau?"

I'm not sure it is 2012, but I don't think it's that far off. The market keeps shrinking. It used to be that practically every profssional Photoshop user had a compelling need to buy a high-end tower; now 2D bitmap editing just isn't demanding enough for most of them to bother. Offline video editing has also basically followed this path, and online editing/color grading are going to follow shortly. When you can grade 4K in real-time on a laptop (probably within five years), how many people in our market will still care about owning a dual socket tower?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:14:17 am

[Chris Kenny] "I'm not sure we're quite there yet, and in any event CPU isn't the only compelling advantage of the Mac Pro -- internal expansion (particularly PCIe slots) is also important. (Though that probably won't be true if Intel's plans to ramp 100 Gb/s Thunderbolt pan out.)"

That's true, but I suspect Apple more than anyone has drunk the Thunderbolt Kool-aid and imagines slots are already obsolete today. If we actually get 100Gb Thunderbolt, then maybe for almost all practical purposes they are. But today? Hardly. So if we think about the USP of a Mac Pro, and we drop dual CPUs and slots (assuming an overly-optimistic Thunderbolt bias at Apple), there isn't much USP left to separate it from an iMac.

[Chris Kenny] "When you can grade 4K in real-time on a laptop (probably within five years), how many people in our market will still care about owning a dual socket tower?"

If we're talking about a five year timetable, then I'm in full agreement.

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:30:06 am

[Andrew Richards] "That's true, but I suspect Apple more than anyone has drunk the Thunderbolt Kool-aid and imagines slots are already obsolete today. If we actually get 100Gb Thunderbolt, then maybe for almost all practical purposes they are. But today? Hardly. So if we think about the USP of a Mac Pro, and we drop dual CPUs and slots (assuming an overly-optimistic Thunderbolt bias at Apple), there isn't much USP left to separate it from an iMac."

Sure. It's a Mac Mini with a more powerful CPU at that point. (And actually, the Mac Mini is starting to be a pretty plausible machine for an edit suite... if this year's Mini lineup includes a machine with both a quad core CPU and dedicated graphics -- unlike the current lineup that makes you choose -- we're probably going to try building a couple of offline suites around them.)

Personally, as I said in the other thread, I'd lay 80% odds on at least one more Mac Pro. After that, who knows?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 12:55:27 am

[Thomas J. Watson]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."

[Ken Olsen]"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home."

[Bill Gates] "640K ought to be enough for anybody."

[Chris Kenny] "If Intel has a 12 core processor available in a couple of years, will Apple really still feel the need to make a dual processor (i.e. 24 core) machine?"

Apologies to Messrs. Watson, Olsen, and Gates, who were either misquoted or had their quotes taken out of context.



[Chris Kenny] "at some point single CPU performance will be so high it won't really make sense even for most of the Mac Pro's demographic."

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sizzle core beast folks like me are now using PCs for desktop-based performance computing. The workstation market is actually growing in absolute numbers (see just about any Jon Peddie Research article from the last 3 years), but Apple is only doing the bare minimum necessary to stay in it.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:07:34 am

[Walter Soyka] "[Thomas J. Watson]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."

[Ken Olsen]"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home."

[Bill Gates] "640K ought to be enough for anybody."

[Chris Kenny] "If Intel has a 12 core processor available in a couple of years, will Apple really still feel the need to make a dual processor (i.e. 24 core) machine?"

Apologies to Messrs. Watson, Olsen, and Gates, who were either misquoted or had their quotes taken out of context."


It's an invalid analogy. I'm not arguing demand for CPU performance will hit a wall and nobody will ever want any more. I'm arguing that at some point single CPU systems will serve the Mac Pro's current demographic well enough that for most of us (nearly all of us) dual CPU machines will no longer pass a cost/benefit analysis. (The same way most of us probably wouldn't buy a quad CPU Mac Pro today if Apple had one available at, say, $15K.)

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:41:16 am

[Chris Kenny] "It's an invalid analogy. I'm not arguing demand for CPU performance will hit a wall and nobody will ever want any more. I'm arguing that at some point single CPU systems will serve the Mac Pro's current demographic well enough that for most of us (nearly all of us) dual CPU machines will no longer pass a cost/benefit analysis. (The same way most of us probably wouldn't buy a quad CPU Mac Pro today if Apple had one available at, say, $15K.)"

You're saying there's no need for growth of serious computational power on the Mac platform, because the users don't want it or need it -- which is fundamentally the same small thinking exemplified by what Bill Gates (never) said about memory layout on the PC platform.

You also ignored the second half of my post entirely, where I talked about how Apple's reticence to update their workstations and offer more compelling configurations is scaring away prospective customers for future high-performance Mac Pros.

With Thunderbolt here, anyone who only needed throughput from their workstation can probably be happy with an iMac. If you're a straight-up video editor, you don't need a Mac Pro anymore, full stop. But AE? C4D? Nuke? Maya? These apps all scale with available power, and Apple is practically discouraging their use on the Mac platform.

I'm arguing that there is a market for this power on the desktop, that the absolute number of workstation customers is growing, and that Apple could be in it if they chose to be. Instead, they're creating FUD about themselves and actually inviting their current Mac Pro customers to check out HP's Z-series, the ProMax One, and whatever Dell has coming out next.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. You're explaining Apple's behavior, and why it's best for Apple. I get it, and you're right.

The thing is -- beyond our 401Ks and stock portfolios, nobody here really cares what's best for Apple unless it also coincides with what's best for us.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 1:54:26 am

[Walter Soyka] "You're saying there's no need for growth of serious computational power on the Mac platform, because the users don't want it or need it -- which is fundamentally the same small thinking exemplified by what Bill Gates (never) said about memory layout on the PC platform. "

"Growth of serious computational power" doesn't require dual-socket towers. Dual-socket is, at best, a way to get twice the performance -- which you'd get with a single-socket machine ~24 months later anyway. It puts you a generation ahead at considerable extra cost (not in Apple's tower lineup, because their single-socket model isn't very attractively priced, but in general), but it's not like single-socket machines aren't also getting faster.

Basically, I'm not arguing that there won't be future applications that want 10, 100 or 1000 times as much CPU power as today's apps, which is the implication of the other quotes you mention. I think there will be such apps, sooner or later. But as mainstream hardware gets faster, the benefits of spending lots of extra money for higher-performance marginally mainstream hardware (like the Mac Pro) recede. And eventually that marginally mainstream hardware is no longer mainstream at all. Apple makes mainstream hardware. When the Mac Pro crosses this line, Apple will stop making it.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 24, 2012 at 2:39:55 am

[Chris Kenny] "Basically, I'm not arguing that there won't be future applications that want 10, 100 or 1000 times as much CPU power as today's apps, which is the implication of the other quotes you mention. I think there will be such apps, sooner or later. But as mainstream hardware gets faster, the benefits of spending lots of extra money for higher-performance marginally mainstream hardware (like the Mac Pro) recede. And eventually that marginally mainstream hardware is no longer mainstream at all. Apple makes mainstream hardware. When the Mac Pro crosses this line, Apple will stop making it."

Chris, I agree with you that cheaper computers are becoming increasingly powerful. It has been ever thus.

My point in bringing up those quotes was that it's alarming when a computer manufacturer that ostensibly supplies professionals stops pushing the envelope. Expectations rise at the same rate as capabilities. There are not just future apps that will someday need this power; there's a whole class of current creative apps that are limited by today's CPU constraints.

Really, you have no argument here from me and I apologize for starting one. Apple will most likely not feel the need to have a dual-socket workstation, though other computer manufacturers interested in niche markets will.

I think you are explaining Apple's motivations and likely future direction very well, and I think that many of us who have benefited from a mainstream company like Apple dabbling in our niche have to decide if we'll be better off moving toward the mainstream or further into our niches.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 11:40:46 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "Sandy Bridge 8 core Xenon CPU's are already out. I can buy them today"

Yes, but Apple needs more of them than you do; they have to wait for production to ramp further. Major Wintel OEMs aren't generally shipping Xeon E5 systems yet either. It's not all that uncommon for new Intel processors to be available to the enthusiast/DIY market a month or two before OEMs ship systems.

This doesn't necessarily mean there will be a new Mac Pro, of course. Merely that the fact that there isn't one yet isn't evidence that there won't be one.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:32:50 pm

Ah - Ok. got you - sooo the intended betrothed Xeon is sitting out there right now. And no MacPro coming out to dance. I lose track of the cpu stuff very easily.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Andrew Richards
Re: Ivy Bridge is a go. Officially.
on Apr 23, 2012 at 4:37:26 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "sooo the intended betrothed Xeon is sitting out there right now. And no MacPro coming out to dance"

HP isn't going to have Z820s in customer's hands prior to May, if the dates on their product pages are any indication. The CPUs are out there, you can buy them as parts, but the OEMs are only now almost shipping workstations built around them.

Best,
Andy


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]