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Aindreas Gallagher
Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 4:14:54 pm

quote in this bit:

http://www.postmagazine.com/Press-Center/Daily-News/2012/Apple-reveals-futu...

so the quote goes..

"Apple also pointed out.. that reports suggest.. that the company owns 52 percent of the market when it comes to new seats. Additionally, Apple notes that there are now more editors working with FCP X that with Final Cut Pro 7."

"Apple then went on to say that the moon is a tomato, your watch is now in their jacket pocket, and as they control reality, you should be careful what you say"


So Yes - I made the second quote up, but seriously?

Even for Apple that is a ludicrous pronouncement. How do they keep a straight face? They've just gotten hosed for a year, the release was a shambles, and barely anyone is using the thing.
And the application has the brilliant ability to homicidally self destruct taking all your work with it.
they're just mad coming out with PR guff like that. Mad. It sounds crazily disconnected from reality.

Although I do rather like the image of Apple sitting in a super secret hotel suite, allowing a select few into the royal court to hear them say any crazy dream world stuff that comes into their heads.

I can't believe they didn't get around to saying that they were re-inventing the puck skating revolution of the future of editing.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 4:22:18 pm

Apple - "Reports suggest"

That's a CYA statement if ever I heard one.

Marvin Holdman
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 4:50:08 pm

to be fair there is actually a report - i just cut the sentence down for reading

"a recent SCRI report on broadcast and post NLE purchases that suggests...."

still - the tone of the PR is nevertheless mental. Apple have retreated to AppleLand here.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 4:42:35 pm

From the linked article:

"Additionally, Apple notes that there are now more editors working with FCP X that with Final Cut Pro 7.""

Are they claiming over 2 million downloads of X? ... or maybe a million converts and a million hold outs.

I'm reading a claim of around a million at least in there. (On second thought, that assumes all of their previous "2 million users" claim were version 7 users, which is unlikely; so, less than a million)


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 4:51:26 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Even for Apple that is a ludicrous pronouncement. How do they keep a straight face? They've just gotten hosed for a year, the release was a shambles, and barely anyone is using the thing. "

I seriously doubt the SCRI report Apple is citing contains falsified data or that Apple is misrepresenting it.

When you say nobody is using FCP X, I think you're operating under the unspoken assumption that feature film and broadcast TV editing dominate the pro video editing market. They don't in any numerical sense. Apple understands this. Instead of waiting until they had a feature set suitable for demanding high-end customers, Apple shipped when FCP X had a feature set that made it to the much larger low-end market, and then turned its focus upmarket only after already having a product out there for more mainstream editors to buy. These numbers validate that decision.

As I just noted in another thread, FCP X is the top-grossing app on the App Store (ignoring Lion, since it's not an app). While this isn't definitive, because there are, of course, many apps sold outside of the App Store, this probably makes it one of the most successful apps on the platform.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 4:56:25 pm

[Chris Kenny] "These numbers validate that decision."

Chris,

I don't think any numbers have been given. It's been said that "reports suggest".

Would be interesting to see the report ...

Franz.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 5:03:25 pm

Yes, I'd very much like to see Apple flesh out the numbers they're throwing around, not to mention what comprises a "new seat".

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 5:16:24 pm

This seems to be the report that Apple "pointed out" (though, of course, no way to confirm):

http://scri.com/sc_reprt/sc_bpvm_2007nles.shtml

1500.00 for the report. It starts like this:

"NLEs will continue to grow over the next three years, in spite of major technological changes that have left many high-end editors bereft, frustrated and storming out of the edit suite."


Franz.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 5:45:27 pm

10 typed pages for 1450 dollars.

I'd like to read it though. Some of the numbers would be really interesting to know.

another quote there:

A technologically intensive, changing business model has made nonlinear editing a challenge to both manufacturers and producers, with improvements and re-branding by Apple leaving some seasoned editors profoundly disgusted.

I'll say. And 'improvement' is definitely subjective in this context.

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http://www.ogallchoir.net
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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 11:43:23 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I don't think any numbers have been given. It's been said that "reports suggest".

Would be interesting to see the report ..."


It would be facinating to see the report. But what we do know is that Apple has 52% of NLE market share, which is slightly up from the 2010 number from the same source (49%). This is new installs, mind you, not installed base -- the vast majority of those new new installs have to be FCP X, particularly to account for the other tidbit we're given, that there are now more editors using FCP X than with FCP 7.

The real takeaway from this isn't the specific number, it's the illustration that number provides of how out of touch a lot of the discussions here are. People in these forums are mostly focused on a couple of specific segments of the professional video editing market -- and not even very large segments. There's a much wider world of editing out there, and if history is any guide, what happens in that world is very likely to significantly impact high-end market segments in the long run -- possibly the not-so-long run, given how fast Apple is adding higher-end features.

--
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You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 12:02:33 am

[Chris Kenny] "... what we do know is that Apple has 52% of NLE market ... new installs ... "

Chris,

We don't "know" that at all.

What we know is that Apple pointed to a report based on a survey that "suggests" something. (... and as Aindreas likes to point out, they did it in a secret Las Vegas hotel room meeting.)

One would assume that if actual sales numbers were impressive, Apple would publish them.

I think the current guess is somewhere on the lower end of 300K - 1000K.

Further, I have little idea of the scope, methodology, or factual basis of the survey. To start with, one assumes they are talking about U.S. markets. But who knows? Mysteries.


[Chris Kenny] "The real takeaway from this isn't the specific number, it's the illustration that number provides of how out of touch a lot of the discussions here are."

I find much of the discussion here very much in touch with specific needs - often they aren't my needs and they may not represent "wider world of editing" (whatever that is) but they do represent pretty concrete things.

If you can find information on the "wider world of editing" I wouldn't be the only one here interested in your findings - this forum is a great place to share.


Franz.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 12:10:22 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "What we know is that Apple pointed to a report based on a survey that "suggests" something. (... and as Aindreas likes to point out, they did it in a secret Las Vegas hotel room meeting.)"

You're reading entirely too much into a wording choice. The quote is "Apple also pointed out a recent SCRI report on broadcast and post NLE purchases that suggests the company owns 52 percent of the market when it comes to new seats." There's a specific number in there. That number almost certainly either appears in the report, or is arrived at by adding together numbers that appear in the report (e.g. if the report breaks out FCP 7 and FCP X market share separately).

--
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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 12:13:30 am

Chris,

This does not contradict anything I've said.

I tried to find out as much as I could about that report and the people who produced it (without actually buying it).

As far as I could determine, that report is based on a survey - not actual sales or downloads or installs (since, no doubt that number includes free trial downloads of X).

If you have better information please share.

Franz.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 5:26:03 am

Welcome back, Chris!


[Chris Kenny] "The real takeaway from this isn't the specific number, it's the illustration that number provides of how out of touch a lot of the discussions here are. People in these forums are mostly focused on a couple of specific segments of the professional video editing market -- and not even very large segments. There's a much wider world of editing out there, and if history is any guide, what happens in that world is very likely to significantly impact high-end market segments in the long run -- possibly the not-so-long run, given how fast Apple is adding higher-end features."

I don't quite understand what you're getting at here. You're suggesting there are lessons to be learned from the "wider world of editing," right? What are they?

It seems to me that FCPX is continuing a trend that goes back at least to the dawn of the desktop video revolution twenty years ago (and I'd argue even further): more people are getting access to greater quality tools at lower prices. The tools are getting vastly easier to use. Schedules are getting tighter and budgets are getting smaller. The Good Enough Revolution suggests that what we are interested in delivering and what customers are interested in receiving (and willing to pay for) are diverging. Video and IT are converging.

That's all pretty much common knowledge. What are we missing?

I understand that there are many editors that don't care about the features and workflows that we discuss here. Even among us on this forum, we all have very different workflows and concerns. For example, I know that multicam post for broadcast is everything to Herb, but it's not even a speck on my radar. Likewise, I don't think he'd care all that much about design for blended projection systems, but I do it every day. I'd guess that neither Herb nor myself spend much time thinking about feature workflow for RED cameras, but you know it inside and out.

To anyone who would argue that the workflows we're discussing are exceptional -- well, I'd agree. Isn't doing something exceptional critical to building a business or making a career of this?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 6:07:42 am

[Walter Soyka] " design for blended projection systems"

Actually, that sounds kind of cool.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 6:28:23 am

[Walter Soyka] "I don't quite understand what you're getting at here. You're suggesting there are lessons to be learned from the "wider world of editing," right? What are they?"

I was making a somewhat different point. The specific lesson of these numbers, I think, is "Just because a narrative (about e.g. FCP X's failure) dominates Internet discussion of a subject doesn't necessarily mean that narrative has any relationship to reality".

But to sort of address your point, I think there's massive value in FCP X being designed to encompass a wider market than pro NLEs might have traditionally targeted. There's a notion commonly floated here that software designed primarily for high-end specialty markets is inherently going to be better for people in those markets. But the history of computing furnishes numerous examples of the opposite. Larger markets tend to generate more total revenue than specialty markets, allowing for investment of more developer resources. Larger markets tend to be more competitive, driving innovative new features. They tend to be more diverse, driving flexibility. And they tend to contain less expert users, driving usability.

There is, in fact, a very strong historical tendency (with hardware as well, actually) for mass-market products to annihilate specialty market products when they come into direct contact. Apple's "mass market first" approach to FCP X is has been widely perceived as a weakness for the product, a reason for high-end users to avoid it and to mistrust its future. But I see a fairly recent analogy between FCP X and Avid (to a lesser extent even Premiere) that suggests precisely the opposite -- iPhone vs. BlackBerrry in the enterprise.

Four years ago, the narrative about iPhone in the enterprise was much like the narrative about using FCP X for high-end work today. It was missing basic enterprise management features! It was a consumer toy! Meanwhile, off in the consumer market, the iPhone was winning over a lot of fans -- people who'd never previously owned a smartphone of any kind. It was also building a massive ecosystem around itself. As Apple began to add enterprise features, a lot of the iPhone's new fans started demanding to use them as work phones -- and a lot of existing enterprise users saw that value in iPhone's ecosystem.

The same is likely to happen with FCP X. Effective tools and workflows will likely develop around it simply because of how widely used it is. People who learn on FCP X now will want to take it with them if (when) they move upmarket later — and it's already well on its way to building out a feature set that will let them do so. While Avid is off "focusing on the enterprise", the army Apple is presently building in the mid-range market is going to be slowly marching toward the world's post facilities.

--
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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 2:31:46 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I was making a somewhat different point. The specific lesson of these numbers, I think, is "Just because a narrative (about e.g. FCP X's failure) dominates Internet discussion of a subject doesn't necessarily mean that narrative has any relationship to reality"."

Oh, I get it now. I misunderstood your point. My apologies.

I don't disagree with this at all, but I do think that reality is somewhat subjective. I'm a designer and finishing editor, and in my little niche, I have yet to see an FCPX project. All my clients are still mostly FCP7 with a little Avid.

The adoption numbers are totally meaningless to me. I'm not in a position to see FCPX's total market penetration; I can only see FCPX's penetration among my clients and prospects, and there, it's currently zero. When that number ticks up, I'll dust off my copy of FCPX. I rather miss the skimmer.

Until then, FCPX is pretty inconsequential for me. It's just another NLE. From where I sit, FCPX has been a "game-changer" (I just put a virtual dollar in the virtual swear jar) in that it hit the reset button on the NLE market, made all the other developers scramble, and gave the market the opportunity to diversify a bit instead of continuing to consolidate.



[Chris Kenny] "Four years ago, the narrative about iPhone in the enterprise was much like the narrative about using FCP X for high-end work today. It was missing basic enterprise management features! It was a consumer toy! Meanwhile, off in the consumer market, the iPhone was winning over a lot of fans -- people who'd never previously owned a smartphone of any kind. It was also building a massive ecosystem around itself. As Apple began to add enterprise features, a lot of the iPhone's new fans started demanding to use them as work phones -- and a lot of existing enterprise users saw that value in iPhone's ecosystem."

This is an interesting example, but I don't think it's the same as what FCPX is doing. Apple made the iPhone fit into the industry; Apple is asking the industry to fit into FCPX.

The iPhone was adopted in enterprise because Apple added Exchange support. By making the iPhone interoperable with large companies' existing infrastructures, Apple made the iPhone a viable handset choice.

Apple has taken a different tack with FCPX. Rather than supporting existing industry standards, Apple has invented new ones, and are now waiting for the industry to adopt them.

iPhone was workable in the enterprise, by Apple's design, out of the box in iOS 2. FCPX is only workable in the facility to the extent that companies like Autodesk, BMD, Intelligent Assistance, and Marquis Broadcast support it and customers update their own infrastructures.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 3:59:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I don't disagree with this at all, but I do think that reality is somewhat subjective. I'm a designer and finishing editor, and in my little niche, I have yet to see an FCPX project. All my clients are still mostly FCP7 with a little Avid. "

Yes, this is what we see as well. But this is a conservative industry. People were still bringing us FCP 6 projects two years after FCP 7 was released. So I don't think this lack of FCP X adoption 12 months in really means very much.

[Walter Soyka] "This is an interesting example, but I don't think it's the same as what FCPX is doing. Apple made the iPhone fit into the industry; Apple is asking the industry to fit into FCPX.

The iPhone was adopted in enterprise because Apple added Exchange support. By making the iPhone interoperable with large companies' existing infrastructures, Apple made the iPhone a viable handset choice.

Apple has taken a different tack with FCPX. Rather than supporting existing industry standards, Apple has invented new ones, and are now waiting for the industry to adopt them."


Your point about Exchange with respect to enterprise adoption is taken, but consider that the iPhone was primarily a consumer product selling into a market where it was commonly believed consumers wouldn't buy expensive smartphones and data plans, the iPhone completely eschewed mobile standards like J2ME, instead requiring developers to write new apps for Apple's proprietary APIs (and buy Macs to do it with!) and the iPhone ignored conventional wisdom about how business users demanded hardware keyboards. So in both the consumer and enterprise markets, Apple was in many ways trying to bend the market to the product, rather than the other way around.

FCP X adopts a lot of industry standards as well. It works with ProRes. It works with native formats from many cameras. It supports standard frame sizes and frame rates. It supports timecode and reel metadata. It can export color information as CDL. It can export in industry-standard formats ranging from H.264 to DPX. It's not like Apple is completely off in its own bizarre world here. Yes, FCP X abandons some established conventions and standards. But Apple has the clout to establish new standards -- classic FCP's XML files were no more of an actual standard than FCP X's XML files, after all -- developers had to add support for that format just for Apple, and now they're supporting FCP X's equivalent.

--
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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 4:23:29 pm

[Chris Kenny] "So in both the consumer and enterprise markets, Apple was in many ways trying to bend the market to the product, rather than the other way around."

And in this regard, FCP1-7 was the departure from the Apple norm. It was a product that was built specifically for the needs of a targeted market.

FCPX is more in line with Apple's product design philosophy -- built a good product the way Apple thinks it should be done, and let people buy it and do with it what they will.

See Tim Wilson's Steve Jobs - A Personal Calendar Entry [link] for more.

I've been trying to explain this as the difference between a product that a professional can use, and a product that's built for professional use. It's a subtle distinction that may ultimately only be important in a small fraction of use cases -- but for that small fraction, it's very important.


[Chris Kenny] " It's not like Apple is completely off in its own bizarre world here. Yes, FCP X abandons some established conventions and standards. But Apple has the clout to establish new standards -- classic FCP's XML files were no more of an actual standard than FCP X's XML files, after all -- developers had to add support for that format just for Apple, and now they're supporting FCP X's equivalent."

They kind of are off in their own bizarre world. No one else has a parent/child timeline model, and that's the critical factor here in interchange.

Of course I understand that Apple invented XMEML, then it became an industry standard. (I theorize that they originally developed it for internal interchange among FCS software, then released it for public use because it is vastly richer than EDL.) However, XMEML ran alongside traditional EDL I/O, so FCP was usable in all kinds of workflows that didn't directly support FCP. In order to work collaboratively with FCP, other apps just had to support existing common industry standards. In order to work with FCPX, other apps must develop specific FCPX support.

I have no problem with developers originating new standards. This is how progress is made. I just think that Apple could have smoothed this process out for us as users by taking responsibility for support of existing industry standards, too, or by involving third parties in development earlier.

Apple may have the clout to force a new standard on an industry, but anyone from Voltaire to Stan Lee will tell you that with great power comes great responsibility. The iPhone was new, so treating it as a blank slate with a minimalist beginning (web apps only!), then adding functionality later didn't disrupt anyone.

FCPX, replacing FCP7, is a bit of a different case. The furor over the innovations -- skimmer, range-based keywording, the magnetic timeline -- has largely evaporated. The furor over the 7/X transition and future direction of the product continues, as all FCP7 users are tasked with migratation (whether to FCPX, Pr, MC, or whatever).

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 10:06:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "They kind of are off in their own bizarre world. No one else has a parent/child timeline model, and that's the critical factor here in interchange."

The parent/child timeline is just a richer way of arranging stacked clips in time. It's entirely possible to throw away the original richness (the clip relationships) and reduce the timeline to clips stacked on tracks. It isn't really all that uncommon for content creation apps to have a rich internal data representation to aid in their operation, that is simplified or entirely discarded when moving data out of the app in an industry-standard interchange format. I don't see a problem with this. After all, what's the alternative? Apps never supporting anything that can't be encoded in a pre-existing industry standard format? That would slow apps to the level of progress seen from, say, web browsers (especially in the days before WHATWG), where lots of vendors spend years arguing over things as part of a standards process before new features can be made available to users.

[Walter Soyka] "In order to work with FCPX, other apps must develop specific FCPX support."

Or the ecosystem surrounding FCP X needs to provide a general solution for getting an EDL out of FCP X (for the probably 5% of FCP users who have ever needed this) -- which seems to be happening. I don't really see a problem with Apple leaving certain features as third-party 'market opportunities'. Particularly if doing so encourages progress, and I rather suspect Apple has left EDL out of FCP X to date at least in part because they want to pressure other developers to support richer interchange formats.

It's not that different from leaving ADB and serial ports off of the first iMac, thus creating pressure on peripheral vendors to switch to USB -- and that was a case where Apple didn't have a 'clean slate' and their actions were rather disruptive, but it worked. Apple's OS 9 to OS X transition was also significantly more disruptive than, say, Microsoft's transition of the consumer market to NT-based Windows. Apple has always been willing to subject its users to more disruptive transitions in order to push the market to move a little faster.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Paul Jay
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 4:53:40 pm

Sure, and thunderbolt is consumer technology 10 times slower then USB 2.0.

He! I can run fcpx, fcp7, davinci, smoke, premiere with Broadcast hdsdi in/out on an iMac.
Geee. Apple is so consumer technology.


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Joseph Owens
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 5:20:33 pm

[Paul Jay] "Sure, and thunderbolt is consumer technology 10 times slower then USB 2.0.

He! I can run fcpx, fcp7, davinci, smoke, premiere with Broadcast hdsdi in/out on an iMac.
Geee. Apple is so consumer technology."


A. The consumer advertising around Thunderbolt is that it can "dramatically speed up moving your photographs and music". (I'm not making this up....)

B. Not your father's iMac, and we are talking Resolve Lite, which isn't actually dependent on Apple, and we also know it, and its licensed version, runs better and faster elsewhere.

C. Apple is all about consumer technology. It is its profit centre and will increasingly be.
All business analysis of the corporation (you know, the boring guys like accountants and investment advisers and actuaries and so on) revolves around it as a "gadget" producer --> i(Things).

Can't help it if democratization is deluding so many people into believing they have talents.

But whatever, its all "spin".

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 5:29:24 pm

[Paul Jay] "He! I can run fcpx, fcp7, davinci, smoke, premiere with Broadcast hdsdi in/out on an iMac. Geee. Apple is so consumer technology."

Moore's law gives us exponential growth in computing performance per price, but video standards increment stepwise with long stretches between changes (SD to HD, HD to 4K, etc.). As long as computers continue to outpace video like this, we'll be able to do more and more with less and less, especially in straight editorial.

But Paul, is an iMac really your dream machine for these apps? Wouldn't the options of more CPU power, more GPU power, and more connectivity be nice to offer?

The iMac is a machine that you can do professional work on. It is not a machine that is built for professional work.

The importance of that distinction probably varies with workflow and delivery requirements.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 5:31:31 pm

[Paul Jay] "Sure, and thunderbolt is consumer technology 10 times slower then USB 2.0."

It is consumer technology, and so is PCIe3 if you plug a graphics card in it to play games. Seriously, an interface isn't "anything", neither consumer nor professional.
Statements like that are ignorant and twisting people's valid criticism of Apple's presumed hardware roadmap.

------
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 5:39:38 pm

besides which - I never mentioned thunderbolt anyway? I don't get why that was the response to the link I posted.

I was just taking the mickey out of their boilerplate PR.

I think thunderbolt is great. I mean, I'm actually buying an iMac with thunderbolt. That's my guy.


http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
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promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 7:40:26 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "besides which - I never mentioned thunderbolt anyway? I don't get why that was the response to the link I posted.
"


That's sort of a hit-and-run mantra the guy has for everything. He has this thunderbolt-exists-so-its-all-good thing going.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 6:56:12 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "...Apple notes that there are now more editors working with FCP X that with Final Cut Pro 7.""

They may have had 2 million downloads of Movie Hero, but downloading a piece of fanware does not make you an editor, in the same way that owning a 5D does not make you a cinematographer.

Once the Reality Distortion Field is switched off the quote would have read: ...Apple notes that 2 million dilettantss have downloaded FCP X, and a few editors have tried it with mixed results.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Glen Hurd
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 7:28:03 pm

Hmm. Sounds like typical political "speek."

"suggests the company owns 52 percent of the market when it comes to new seats."

In other words, out of all new seats - whether PPro, Avid, or other - FCP X sales made up 52% of all new "seats" bought. Considering that the other seats cost at least 3x as much, one could also say, "FCP X sales made up no more than 1/6th of the revenue generated by new editing software sales."


Additionally, Apple notes that there are now more editors working with FCP X than with Final Cut Pro 7.

Yeah, duh.
In other words, there are now more FCP X purchases than there are FCP 7 current users.
Is that an obvious statement or what?
Next year it will be even more true - whether they sell another copy of FCP X or not.

Anyone remember Pogue's articles on FCP X, mouthing Apple's answers to us confused editors? professional-video-editors-weigh-in-on-final-cut-pro-x

Good to see that Red support is still on their to-do list.

Classic Apple.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 7:53:10 pm

there's been something in the back of my head about this... and I just got it.

this is what comes to mind when you read that Apple PR: ;)







http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Ben Scott
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 9:05:06 pm

nice to see Aindreas maintaining his top spot as snide fcpx naysayer

the stats they are talking about may be true though i could easily imagine fcp7 users that never paid for the software numbering very highly and then many of them then paid for version as they had no choice and it was cheap

dont really think the fcpx software is nearly as bad as being made out

i mean i spent 2 hours trying to get an aaf and mxf folder from a 60 sec ad to protools session today from avid and its meant to be stable. just to let you know i failed the protools crashed badly.

dont believe all the hype from any of the companies its all to be taken with a pinch of salt in my opinion


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Glen Hurd
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 10:38:19 pm

Apple PR. Great marketing. But your thoughts on them making gnomic comments in secret rooms made me wonder if they know that gnomic isn't necessarily tied to mythology.

Speaking of gnomic, here's that Larry Jordan quote,
"Dual Viewers is analogous to Source and Record monitors; though Apple stressed that when they implement a feature they try to do it better than it has been done before."

Wow. Dual viewers, but better than it has been done before.
Let me ponder that a moment.

OK.

It was a good chuckle, anyway.

Have you seen this Smoke thread, Aindreas?
you-killed-it
Not nearly as wild as a certain debate forum, but nice to see comments/answers from the Smoke development team! Kinda kills the need for PR and number twisting, too. Concerns/complaints met with logic, explanation, and admissions of compromise and intended purpose.
No 3rd party bullhorns.
No new PR.

Mark Twain'd be proud.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 11:09:11 pm

great, great link - it is so weirdly funny and strange to read another's angst from over this end.

quotes -

"You caved to a bunch of whiney editors who are there to EDIT. Seriously, what sort of crappy production has a story teller do the VFX work too?
....I can’t even look at that hideous new interface you’ve dreamt up, HIDEOUS!
....And I’m not even going to start with this crazy new need to right click.
....Let us know what is happening with Flame urgently. Because this is a disaster.
....Smoke is changing, disruptive is certainly right."


annnd then one hilarious reply:

"So this sounds like FCPX stuff. People going mad."

...and then that guy Frederic Warren just calmly walks the entire situation through in one post.

God knows Apple don't have a Frederic Warren, or anything like a forum to disseminate that class of thought and communication.

On the other hand, they're about to buy Europe with cash on hand. So.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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TImothy Auld
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 8:47:14 pm

I know all the high school students in my neighborhood have it.

Tim


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 9:04:04 pm

[TImothy Auld] "....all the high school students in my neighborhood have it."


...and I'm sure that's not the only neighborhood where that's happening.

Well, now we have some anecdotal information to indicate a likely source of this overwhelming surge in seats: high school kids.

That's not a slam against high school kids, either. I just hope they're not expecting that for their $300 they get everything that came with Legacy.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 9:08:37 pm

for sure. Chris Kenny put it pretty well up there:

When you say nobody is using FCP X, I think you're operating under the unspoken assumption that feature film and broadcast TV editing dominate the pro video editing market. They don't in any numerical sense. Apple understands this. Instead of waiting until they had a feature set suitable for demanding high-end customers, Apple shipped when FCP X had a feature set that made it to the much larger low-end market, and then turned its focus upmarket only after already having a product out there for more mainstream editors to buy. These numbers validate that decision.

There's a ring to that -

but.. I just can't resist having a rip at the way Apple choose to deal with the conversation arising out of their strategic shift, in terms of how they converse with the industry of editing as it stands now.

I have a problem with their stance, and their weird, we're quietly saying gnomic things in a hotel suite you can't walk into carry on.
that sort of carry on would irk anyone. This isn't an unannounced iphone4. You'd think Apple need to shake off some of this behaviour for non-consumer markets. nothing bad will happen to them if they do.

but that's totally separate to the thought they put into this application, and what they believe its meant to do. Mark Raudonis did say with feeling at the editors lounge thing that Apple made *exactly* the application they intended to.

at the minute I'm watching that autodesk stream of Alfonso Cuaron talking about Gravity - to hear him talking to the massive benefits of democratising the tools for narrative, you find you nod the head instinctively.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 10:39:29 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "There's a ring to that -"

That is NOT how they pitched it...at all. Not in the same cosmos...

Their entire PR campaign coming out of NAB last year was - "Final Cut Pro X stays in the picture for pros"...ahuh

Sorry Chris, either way you slice the apple, "upmarketing" was not part of that campaign.


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Scott Shucher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 10:50:14 pm

I have just spent 3 days wandering the halls of the Las Vegas Convention Center and NAB, and except for one vendor at the "plug-ins" pavilion, there was not a sign of FCPX anywhere. I was actually looking forward to having someone demo it for me, but there were none. If FCPX were a pin dropping at NAB, the sound made was deafening silence. Truly sad, reflecting back to the days when FCP and Apple were generating genuine excitement here at NAB. Perhaps Apple should look outside their Las Vegas hotel suite and check out reality.

By the way, perhaps a sign of things to come, I counted only two visible Mac towers on display as part of any system, NLE or otherwise. Lots of iMacs. MacPros and even some Mac-minis.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 11:10:25 pm

Seriously? No FCPX demos?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Scott Shucher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 11:24:38 pm

Except for one plug-in developer, I did not find any demos. Maybe someone else who is also here can chime in if I missed one, but I did not find any demos

You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 11:36:49 pm

That's mad.
I presumed given the overall weight Apple bring with ProRes, thunderbolt and all, there would be grace vendor consideration for it?

It almost sounds like Boycott.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Ben Rojas
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 2:50:16 am

I too only saw FCPX once. It was looping video at the Intel booth as they showed off Thunderbolt speeds. As for Mac Pros, several but tucked away under tables, back rooms, etc. Certainly not like other years where they were prominently displayed. Thunderbolts and iMacs, everywhere! Interesting and likely telling of things to come friends.

Ben Rojas
Editor|Artist|Dir. of Post Production
KSC KREATE
3850 N 28th Ter. Ste. 101
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.326.7600
F. 954.326.7766
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@ksckreate.com
http://www.ksckreate.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 2:54:41 am

"I too only saw FCPX once."

Well, it was displayed all over the place. At least a dozen booths that I can think of in both the South and Central halls. Not necessarily actual presenter demos, but in the vendor's booth and something people could get their hands on.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Shucher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 3:06:49 am

Come on, we can't even agree on what we saw! Good thing we don't have to testify about it.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 3:15:23 am

"Come on, we can't even agree on what we saw! Good thing we don't have to testify about it."

LOL. For the record, I'll testify to:

AJA
Blackmagic Design
Matrox
MOTU
SONY
Dashwood
Quantel
1 Beyond Systems
Tools On Air
Autodesk

Others that I don't 100% remember, like storage vendors.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Ben Rojas
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 20, 2012 at 4:35:26 am

Ok, Oliver has jolted my memory. Yep, Aja & BMD for sure. I think Apple lost a prime opportunity to face its critics, skeptics and spurned user base! They could have come to NAB in full force and proven to all that they learned a valuable lesson and committed to the pro market. Hell, while at it, they could have handed out iPads like mints and all would have been forgiven ;0) Kidding aside, Adobe & Autodesk hammered Apple... And Avid as well !

Ben Rojas
Editor|Artist|Dir. of Post Production
KSC KREATE
3850 N 28th Ter. Ste. 101
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.326.7600
F. 954.326.7766
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@ksckreate.com
http://www.ksckreate.com


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katherine taylor
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 11:39:45 pm

Instead of waiting until they had a feature set suitable for demanding high-end customers,

There was social currency in using FCP 7 for amateurs, students and Indy film-makers precisely because it was a tool that was also used by "Pro's". Along with that came the perceived lack of "ceiling" to the creative potential. After all, if a Feature Film can be cut on it then what's your excuse?

Anybody who takes their filmmaking passion seriously, at any level, does not want to hear that their creative ambitions have been defined for them, even if in reality Apple are just saying "we've decided that you'd never use the complicated stuff anyway".


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 18, 2012 at 11:55:01 pm

that's the part I don't get - either Apple calculated that they could roll over professional practise with aggressive updates and massively cranking the reality distortion machine - or - they were happy to bifurcate editing methods in the medium term.

As you say, I myself glommed onto FCP because I knew I was getting easy access to the real deal ladder. that kind of goes with ambition.

Given that the paid industry of editing appears to be busily wrapping FCPX in concrete before depositing it in fresh water: that internal ambition argument for someone setting out to engage with editing - on the highly one off FCPX paradigm - it's a bit shaky?
Aren't they going to be reading about what their adored films/docos were cut on? Isn't that how this works?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 12:47:14 am

Let's inject a little reality into the discussion. I was given the same numbers.

First of all, we have no idea of SCRI's statistical methodology, such as sample size, geographical testing, etc. Second, there's no clarification of whether some of the same people/facilities who bought one NLE may have also bought the other. Third, there's no compensation for how many may have bought FCP X and decided not to use it, or how many started to use Premiere Pro because they already owned it. Remember this is a percentage of FCP sales, NOT FCP X sales. So it likely also includes purchases of FCP "legacy" up to and even after the launch of X. The point Apple was trying to make, was not about the actual percentages as an absolute, but rather to point out that they were maintaining market share.

The claim by Apple is that there are now more installed users of X than legacy. Why doubt that? Plenty of new users (amateurs and students) have been added to the fold. The bottom line is that you shouldn't put much stock in the numbers, but conversely, don't believe that X is going away.

On the NAB floor, there are plenty of workflows being demonstrated in conjunction with X, including from folks like Quantel.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 12:56:52 am

You misunderstand me. I re-read my thing. It's not - not - that I'm even disputing the numbers say, slightly fuzzy though they may be. It's the tone of the PR, and the fact that it emanated from the 42nd and 1/2 floor of an unnamed hotel, in a room somewhere in the vicinity of NAB. Did apple look down on the scurrying crowds? Did they quietly eat guacamole and discuss the meaning of a persistent in out point? Was Larry Jordan allowed to use the toilet? Did the toilet have an NDA?

These would be my primary concerns. Not the granular specifics of their vague messaging, but the tenor of it, and the near howard hughes moonie like setting in which it occured.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 1:41:01 am

"These would be my primary concerns. Not the granular specifics of their vague messaging, but the tenor of it, and the near howard hughes moonie like setting in which it occured."

That's standard Apple PR procedure. Always has been. And Apple is not alone. There are plenty of other companies who do not exhibit on the NAB show floor, but book hotel suites and schedule appointments with key or potential customers, as well as media. Nothing odd about it.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 8:13:37 am

Wait, so if I understand you right, you're saying it's not reasonable to characterise Apple as Howard Hughes type guacamole eating NDA addicted moonies?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 12:52:58 pm

"Wait, so if I understand you right, you're saying it's not reasonable to characterise Apple as Howard Hughes type guacamole eating NDA addicted moonies?"

I've signed many more NDAs with Adobe and other manufacturers than I have with Apple.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 1:13:01 am

Another of the companies talking FCPX workflows was Autodesk with Smoke. FCPX wasn't everywhere, but it wasn't nowhere.

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Scott Shucher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 1:39:27 am

Yes, Autodesk was talking FCPX workflow, but they were not doing any demos with it. Sapphire was also talking FCPX workflow, but using Avid & AE for demos. You gotta admit Tim, that for a product that needed a boost in professional credibility, it was a disappointing show.

You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 1:44:31 am

Demos. In a limited sense, the ones I saw that were, included AJA, Blackmagic Design, Matrox, ToolsOnAir, Quantel, RED, Sony, etc.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 6:51:23 am

[Scott Shucher] "You gotta admit Tim, that for a product that needed a boost in professional credibility, it was a disappointing show."

Not disappointing for me. :-)

I was curious going in what its profile would be. Part of me assumed that people would be demonstrating it in quite a few contexts along with other solutions, or running on a couple of computers among several in a booth. Even on that limited level of expectation, the reality appears to have still been well short of that.

I do think that its profile is higher than that, even among "real" pros, who are increasingly coming out of the closet in this forum, to say nothing of the very-well trafficked forum next door to this one. That said, I gotta agree with you, Scott -- this show certainly indicated something approaching a vote of non-confidence for many vendors....

Tim Wilson
Associate Publisher, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou



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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 2:00:38 am

[Oliver Peters] "The claim by Apple is that there are now more installed users of X than legacy. Why doubt that? Plenty of new users (amateurs and students) have been added to the fold. "

I certainly don't. But for me, that's where the humor comes in. Its all in the way its phrased: "the company owns 52 percent of the market when it comes to new seats. Additionally, Apple notes that there are now more editors working with FCP X that with Final Cut Pro 7."

52 percent of the market? Maybe of people who've bought things to cut video with, but not of target audience for NAB. Very different markets, with some overlap. Also, are editors now simply defined as "anyone who owns a $300 piece of editing software?"

Seats? That's the way you count installed business users, not folks that want to do stuff with video. I mean, how many "seats" does iLife have? I'm betting the product and term have never met until this last sentence. Its just your average BS corporate propaganda, and I always find that funny. From my POV, that kind of fluffery signals a near-worthless report.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 5:37:39 am

Chris,

I think you are inferring and combining things that weren't necessarily presented in that context. The number of users was presented simply on the basis of numbers without any definition to who the users are. I extrapolated that X may include more non-pros in the mix than "legacy". As far as the 52%, that's based on SCRI's study, which is supposedly based on polling professional commercial and film editors and shops. The two numbers are not connected nor are they contradictory. Also that 52% is based on new purchases. It doesn't mean they quit using what they already had.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 6:04:37 am

[Oliver Peters] "Chris,

I think you are inferring and combining things that weren't necessarily presented in that context. The number of users was presented simply on the basis of numbers without any definition to who the users are. I extrapolated that X may include more non-pros in the mix than "legacy". As far as the 52%, that's based on SCRI's study, which is supposedly based on polling professional commercial and film editors and shops. The two numbers are not connected nor are they contradictory. Also that 52% is based on new purchases. It doesn't mean they quit using what they already had."


You might be right. I'm just going off the quote from "Post." I'm sure there is more to it. "Apple also pointed out a recent SCRI report on broadcast and post NLE purchases that suggests the company owns 52 percent of the market when it comes to new seats. Additionally, Apple notes that there are now more editors working with FCP X that with Final Cut Pro 7."

But what are "new seats?" Since January? Six months? A year? Three years? And how do you define editors? I find it very, very difficult to believe that there are more paid editors working with FCP X than with 7. I have absolutely no problem believing that more people are using X than 7, but editors "working" with it is an entirely different matter.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 6:11:40 am

"But what are "new seats?" Since January? Six months? A year? Three years? And how do you define editors? I find it very, very difficult to believe that there are more paid editors working with FCP X than with 7. I have absolutely no problem believing that more people are using X than 7, but editors "working" with it is an entirely different matter."

All I can say is that I saw the same Keynote slides and these numbers were not presented as tied together in a direct sense. So "more X users" means of all types. The 52% was for the year of 2011. 52% of market is purchases of new licenses made by professional users according to who SCRI polled.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 7:02:23 am

[Oliver Peters] "All I can say is that I saw the same Keynote slides and these numbers were not presented as tied together in a direct sense. So "more X users" means of all types. "

I'm so confused. I thought we were talking about an article. But I'm sure you are right. I'm on 12 hour+ sizzle reel burnout. Very little is currently real to me.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 12:45:27 am

[katherine taylor] "There was social currency in using FCP 7 for amateurs, students and Indy film-makers precisely because it was a tool that was also used by "Pro's". Along with that came the perceived lack of "ceiling" to the creative potential. After all, if a Feature Film can be cut on it then what's your excuse?"

This was eventually true, but it certainly wasn't true on day one. There's no reason FCP X can't get there as well.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Jules bowman
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 7:46:35 am

Well, aside from the fact that at the moment it is a buggy bit of software that has dispensed with an 'editing paradigm' used by the majority of the professional industry and it has been superseded by PP because its 10th incarnation needs 'a bit of time' whereas PP just evolves sensibly and that Avid still dominates in the 'minds' of a fair proportion of editors who 'matter' when it comes to giving a piece of software that 'pro' association and that that very industry that will give the 'kiss of pro' is generally fatigued with Apple's hubris and cloak and dagger mentality and have tried and generally ignored FC10 and its adopters are fanboys who will, with all due respect, never make an impact on people's perceptions of the apps 'pro' status when put on the front cover of Apple Monthly no matter whether they make a living from it.

So sure, make airy statements that there is no reason FC10 can get there too, but know you are wrong. There are reasons it can't get there. Many many of them in fact. And instead of this constant almost religious belief in Faith of an unknown and unknowable future second coming, let's start basing these discussions in the facts of now.

FC10 is a flawed buggy non-industry standard, non skill set transferable patchwork of a piece of software that appears to corrupt and destroy work rather capriciously giving its competition, who are already ahead of it, 3 to 5 more years head start to claim FCP7s market share and respect.

Yeah. My money is with the atheists on this one.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 1:48:54 pm

[Jules bowman] "Well, aside from the fact that at the moment it is a buggy bit of software that has dispensed with an 'editing paradigm' used by the majority of the professional industry and it has been superseded by PP because its 10th incarnation needs 'a bit of time' whereas PP just evolves sensibly and that"

FCP X is a ground-up rewrite. It's more sensibly treated as a new app trying to break into the market (with a fair bit of success so far, based on available data) than a "10th incarnation [that] needs 'a bit of time'". The claim that it has been "superseded by PP" does not appear to be remotely true in terms of adoption. As I noted previously, my company has yet to even have someone inquire about bringing us a project edited in Premiere. Neither PP nor FCP X has yet superseded FCP 7.

[Jules bowman] "its adopters are fanboys who will, with all due respect, never make an impact on people's perceptions of the apps 'pro' status when put on the front cover of Apple Monthly no matter whether they make a living from it."

Even assuming FCP X presently isn't seeing any use at the high-end (which doesn't appear to be strictly true -- Leverage, etc.), you seem to be entirely ignoring the fact that change is usually bottom-up in this industry. In other words, mid-range adoption today probably translates into high-end adoption down the road.

[Jules bowman] "FC10 is a flawed buggy non-industry standard, non skill set transferable patchwork of a piece of software that appears to corrupt and destroy work rather capriciously giving its competition, who are already ahead of it, 3 to 5 more years head start to claim FCP7s market share and respect."

Yeah, I'm sure it'll take Apple at least five years to fix a couple of rare bugs with file saving. And we all know that no other NLE has ever had any bugs that could cause people to lose work. I mean, Adobe in particular is well known for making completely bug-free software that nobody ever complains about.

Oh, wait. That's crazy. Many of the early performance/reliability issues with FCP X have already been addressed, there isn't an NLE on the market I'd actually consider rock solid, and people complain constantly about buggy Adobe software -- it's a running joke in the Mac community. Here's a whole blog dedicated to Adobe bugs. You want some data loss? How about Flash deleting files when it encounters a save error. Somehow I don't think Premiere will be magically immune to this sort of thing.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 3:56:14 pm

[Chris Kenny] " Leverage, etc."

there's .. not a lot of etc. left after leverage. ;)

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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chris north
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 9:45:19 am

Sure. I guess the fan-boys can just wait around for them to get their act together. Everybody else will move on.


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Steve Connor
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 9:53:47 am

[chris north] "Sure. I guess the fan-boys can"

For "fan-boys" read "professionals with a workflow that fits with FCPX very well and whose opinions vary from mine"

:)

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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chris north
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 10:07:52 am

Yeah yeah yeah... ;-)


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Chris Kenny
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 1:33:20 pm

[chris north] "Sure. I guess the fan-boys can just wait around for them to get their act together. Everybody else will move on."

That doesn't appear to be an accurate characterization of what's happening. Apple has already plugged most of the major functionality gaps that existed in 10.0.0. FCP X already appears to be rather popular. And while there aren't any world-famous editors talking it up yet, there are now high-end users one can point to in order to validate that FCP X can be a useful part of high-end workflows. There isn't really much reason to expect an overall erosion of NLE market share, and the data we have, while sparse, seems to indicate there hasn't been one.

Will Apple take a short-term hit in some market segments? Maybe, but compared with what baseline? Compared to a universe in which Apple had shipped a release with 10.0.4's functionality 12 months earlier? OK, but what software company wouldn't be doing better if its product development were 12 months ahead of where it presently is? Compared to a universe where Apple shipped an NLE with a more conventional interface? Perhaps, but though some established editors might find it awkward there are some real benefits to Apple's new approach that could help with attracting and retaining new users -- and a product that effectively attracts and retains new users probably has better long-term prospects even if it loses some of the old guard in the process.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Daniel Frome
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 11:26:10 am

If more people are editing in general, then good for Apple. I'm glad if lots of young people have access to editing software. When I was a kid

Seriously though... I'm a freelancer in Toronto and we're a tightly knit community here... there are 15-20 production or post facilities at any given time (that are big enough to be on a freelancer's radar). Nearly all of them have a FCP7 presence but it is dwindling and exists solely for support of legacy projects. There is only 1 studio that is still using FCP7 for most of its projects, but they've already bought Avid and simply haven't implemented yet. So... OK -- broadcast industry can be crossed off my FCPX-potentials list in this city... next I've got 2 friends that run mid-size wedding and corporate businesses. Both of them tried and discarded FCPX and are still using FCP7. Not a huge sample size... I suppose I won't cross that off too soon but I can't assume it's getting wide adoption.

These articles and (occasional) comments on this forum are building a bigger and bigger disconnect between the supposed FCPX user share and the reality sitting in front of me every day.

We bought 2 new edit suites at my studio today ... two of the (possibly last edition) mac pros and two copies of Avid Symphony -- care of our old FCP licenses.

Time to get to work...


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple are hilarious
on Apr 19, 2012 at 12:49:08 pm

"These articles and (occasional) comments on this forum are building a bigger and bigger disconnect between the supposed FCPX user share and the reality sitting in front of me every day. "

That's a good point. As far as the small sample of those I run into on the floor here at NAB, I have yet to encounter anyone who's expressed any interest in using FCP X for their workflows. I'm probably more willing to give it the benefit of the doubt than most. Even those who like it a bit, don't seem to see how it can actually work on the projects they cut. Granted, many of them have it, but really have never used it, but I think that sentiment is pretty common.

It really feels to me that X is moving into a similar niche as EDIUS or Vegas. Both good tools, but not in the top tier of the specific users that go to this show. OTOH, when I see the folks that are covering the show with their own web video segments, X is actually the perfect tool for them to take their HDSLR-shot segments, cut and get online.

I don't think it's an either-or proposition. X is perfectly suited to be ONE of the tools you use, not the ONLY tool.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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