FORUMS: list search recent posts

one more kick in the groin.

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Aindreas Gallagher
one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:01:32 pm

you can't turn the magnetic timeline off.

https://discussions.apple.com/message/15454581

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

that is so funny. the whole timeline sliding around like jello. edits cut to music all going to hell. it's hilarious.
Apple - and I'm deadly serious here, apple could not give a tupenny damn the havoc they're going to cause in broadcast edit setups, post houses, and edit shops across america and europe. They spot money elsewhere, in the social media pro-am and so the app is now built for rinkydink enthusiasts and imovie upgraders (jesus you can't import FCP7 and you can import iMovie - that is apple punching you in the nose right there and laughing in your face)

So apple are leaving, they're leaving because well, apple don't precisely care about their customers per se, they care about potential customer's money, that's all, they care about customers insofar as the customers are the ones with money - and they think they've found a whole new rich seam of wallets, and so they've made an actuarial calculation, and it hasn't worked out for us, because apple is throwing all of us, the entire community of professional editors, pretty much right off the cliff. They never look back apple do.

Is anyone else annoyed here?

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Greg Burke
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:04:37 pm

Avid Here I come....


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:12:51 pm

but jesus I hate Avid, I really hate using it. I've been FCP only since 3.0

damn you Apple.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index


Ron Pestes
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:15:54 pm

There is always Premier...

Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2
Sony EX-3
MacBook Pro


Return to posts index

Patrick Burns
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:31:56 am

Premiere is every bit as capable as FCP. And besides, it integrates seamlessly with After Effects and the rest of the CS applications.


Return to posts index

Jamie Franklin
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:20:35 pm

Read this too...

Snip: On my initial project, I had 17 clips I brought in. I decided one was not needed for the project. I deleted it from the event. It deleted it OFF the disk as well.

Bad Apple!


Return to posts index


Harry Pallenberg
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:31:37 pm

Jamie,

When you say deleted it off the disk - like gone... empty trash?
Is there an option (control click or something) where it would be
removed from the event, but not from the drive?

Thanks,
Harry

Forum Cowmunity Leader: Indie & Doc
Forum Cowmunity Leader: HDV

2.93Core i7 ** 4GB ** 10.6.7 (Office / Photoshop/ FCP 7)
Dual 2.0 G5 ** 8GB ** 10.6.7 Kona 2 (FCP 6.0.4 Machine)

Where They Raced
http://www.wheretheyraced.com




Return to posts index

Jamie Franklin
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:46:08 pm

The source file is removed from the disc and placed in the trash...

This is an insane feature and shows this product is still in beta...apple is basically asking the pro community to bug bash this product...bad Apple!


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:44:01 pm

[Jamie Franklin] "Read this too...

Snip: On my initial project, I had 17 clips I brought in. I decided one was not needed for the project. I deleted it from the event. It deleted it OFF the disk as well.

Bad Apple!"


It's a little more complicated than that. See my post here.

Basically, it only does that if you have it copy media into its own library on import. Which you don't have to do. This behavior makes perfect sense.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index


Jamie Franklin
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:04:23 am

What would make perfect sense is if it warns you, which it doesn't, and from the chaps I've talked to, it has deleted the source media, and *only* copy...


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:15:39 am

[Jamie Franklin] "What would make perfect sense is if it warns you, which it doesn't, and from the chaps I've talked to, it has deleted the source media, and *only* copy..."

I can't replicate that behavior here. It's possible there's some intermittent bug, but if this is unintentional behavior then you can hardly read anything into Apple's motivations about pro vs. non-pro use from it.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Jamie Franklin
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:27:22 am

?

What I read into that is: this is still a beta release. Further justified by the appearence of Apple wanting the community to "help" develop future updates /eyeroll

The pro-non-pro argument is another justifiable criticism with the lack of pro features....Your defense of the platform is somewhat admirable, and when there are jumps to conclusions there is an appreciation on part you correcting them...but, lets call a spade a spade here...this was a horrible release.


Return to posts index


Peter Blumenstock
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:44:58 pm

I am 100 per cent with you. FCP X is an abomination and a slap in the face of the established user base. And unfortunately it is once again proof that Apple is totally unpredictable and cannot be trusted in their commitment to certain markets. FCP X isn't something that can be fixed with a few updates; its ignorance for the most basic features and workflows is almost funny and grotesque.
I don't feel comfortable anymore basing my business and income on a software and company behind it that obviously has no clue and interest in what pays the bills of the people using it. Exporting to Youtube certainly isn't one of those things. What a joke! Maybe the time has finally come consider stepping away from all this nonsense, secrecy and lack of interest in real world usage and go with Avid, Adobe or maybe even look at Edius.


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:58:52 pm

[Peter Blumenstock] "FCP X isn't something that can be fixed with a few updates; its ignorance for the most basic features and workflows is almost funny and grotesque."

That's absurd. What are the significant feature omissions right now? I count:

- EDL/XML/OMF import/export
- Video I/O through third-party cards
- Multicam

There is nothing about the way the app functions that fundamentally prevents these from being added.

The rest of this is mostly people freaking out about an interface without having bothered to learn how it works, as far as I can tell.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Peter Blumenstock
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:45:36 am

Really?
Here is one little example that renders the entire app completely useless. Just take a look at the ridiculous audio options. I can choose stereo or surround for my project. That is it.
What if I need to work with 4 channels of audio. Or 8, or 12. And that's as basic as it can possible get. 2 channel final mix, 2 channel m&e for subsequent dubbing in foreign countries. Or 5.1 final mix AND 5.1 M&E to be laid off to HDCAM-SR. Can't be done. I cannot even create such a project and export a QT file so I can subsequently output it using AJA or BM tools.
Are you seriously saying Apple didn't have enough time to implement such "advanced" features and it will be added later on? My take is that they don't care. It is a workflow the average consumer won't need so they don't care. We can do 4k but cannot output a file with 4 discreet audio channels. Hilarious, pathetic.


Return to posts index


Chris Kenny
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 1:13:26 am

[Peter Blumenstock] "Are you seriously saying Apple didn't have enough time to implement such "advanced" features and it will be added later on?"

This feature is very much like the other export features related to high-end workflows that are currently missing. Apple, as I pointed out, as a long record of shipping products when they're useful to a decent number of people (which FCP X is), and not waiting around until they have all the features everyone might expect. The lack of support for high-end workflow features in 1.0 is so comprehensive that it almost has to be a consequence of a deliberate decision to put them off for a later update.

The alternative to to believe that Apple is walking away from the high-end market segment because they're too lazy to ever add some workflow features that are, in comparison with what they've already done (the rendering engine, etc.) pretty easy. That doesn't seem very believable, especially given that FCP X was first demoed at an event where Apple was actively bragging about its broadcast and post house market share.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Peter Blumenstock
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 2:14:19 am

I don't consider the ability to export a file with 4 discreet audio channels a high-end workflow. It's part of the most basic feature set a NLE can have in the year 2011. It doesn't get more basic than that.
It part of the same attitude Apple shows with regard to lots of other things that are not part of the i-consumer hype. Server hardware: gone. Apple's answer: Mac Mini or an MacPro that cannot be rack mounted. Shake: gone. Apple's answer: Motion. DVD authoring: gone. Apple's answer: nothing. Blu-ray authoring: never been there. Apple's answer: nothing, don't care. Color: gone. Apple's answer: FCP, without preview capabilities on an external monitor. Great. Not one single person in a professional work environment will color correct that way.
And to make matters worse, they have pulled FCP 7. If a post house needs another license because FCP X simply cannot do the most basic jobs they are out of luck. What a great move that really serves Apple's customers to get the job done. They can play a 4k timeline 24/7 and export it to Youtube but cannot output 4 channels of audio.
The broadcast and post house market will run a mile a from FCP X. It's about time Apple falls flat on their arrogant nose with their lackluster commitment to established markets. Where is Apple at NAB or IBC, nowhere to be seen anymore. They were there big time when they wanted those customers. Now they have them and that was that. Moving on. Talk to Avid about future plans and you get information, talk to Apple and you get silence. I have enough, I simply don't want to bet the future of my business on such a company anymore and from the reactions here and elsewhere I am not alone.


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 2:45:24 am

[Peter Blumenstock] "I don't consider the ability to export a file with 4 discreet audio channels a high-end workflow. It's part of the most basic feature set a NLE can have in the year 2011. It doesn't get more basic than that."

Look, I find this omission annoying as well, but realistically, It's a feature oriented around a certain type of deliverable that most of Final Cut's user base probably doesn't deliver.

Meanwhile, exporting a surround mix, which was not especially intuitive in FCP 7, has gotten a lot easier.

[Peter Blumenstock] "It part of the same attitude Apple shows with regard to lots of other things that are not part of the i-consumer hype."

You're misreading Apple's behavior. Apple takes the same conservative approach to feature implementation with its consumer products as well. Daring Fireball jokingly linked to this Google search about iOS 5 today.

[Peter Blumenstock] "The broadcast and post house market will run a mile a from FCP X"

Meh. I doubt it. This sounds entirely too much like past Apple-related Internet flame-fests. Unless Apple really never implements any of these missing workflow features, I doubt there will be much long-term damage.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index


Peter Blumenstock
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 3:06:40 am

Given Apple's past track record I don't really care what may or, more likely, may not come in a future update.
What matters to me is the status quo. And with Apple pulling FCP7 it can be described in a very simple way with regards to Apple's "Pro" apps:
Professional editing: not possible. Professional color crading: not possible. DVD authoring: not possible. Blu-ray authoring: not possible.
That is the situation a companies are facing who have spent the past 9 years with Apple, their hardware, their software, investing in the fcp ecosystem with both hard- and software - and they are left in the cold right here and right now - with no certainty that this situation may ever change an a ton of potential expenses waiting around the corner once they have realized it is time to move elsewhere... In my book, that's a betrayal of trust.
Why pull FCP7? Why not continue selling it if all those missing features will be part of a future upgrade? Because... I firmly believe they won't.


Return to posts index

Justin Benn
Agreed 150%.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:15:57 pm

Agreed, Peter, agreed. And aggrieved.

They've had years to get this right. Look at their pattern of behaviour and act accordingly. Does anyone seriously think that, if they were brave enough to release this now - with all that is missing? And look at what software they have buried along the way! You think that they take your workflow seriously? Well... you can buy my Mac Pro that I am now seriously thinking about selling. And my MBP too.

Worried about how much money I am going to lose in this change to PC-Adobe/Avid/Smoke.



MBP 09/8GB | MP 2*2.93/12GB/HD4870/HP4322


Return to posts index

Stefan Buhrmester
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:17:29 pm

I love the new timeline. It's awesome working with it once you've read the manual.

What I hate are the missing features, most importantly F**KING import of motion files.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:26:53 pm

a timeline in continuous swap mode that you can't turn off is a good thing? seriously?

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Stefan Buhrmester
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:49:25 pm

Well, no.

But 3 point editing still works. W, E, D hotkeys are quite handy too. And I think one needs to get used to the new Q hotkey to connect clips.


Return to posts index

Stefan Buhrmester
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:57:50 pm

Oh, and to disable the swapping behaviour when dragging clips around the timeline, use P. Its really all in the manual.


Return to posts index

John Pale
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:29:46 pm

Not that you really wanted to know....but after skimming the user manual, it appears you have to learn a new way to do this type of editing.

http://help.apple.com/finalcutpro/mac/10.0/#verc147f195

Apparently you can make edits without ending up in ripple hell... apparently you have to first learn how to use storylines.

I'd give you more info, but I am doing real editing work in FCP 7 (waiting for a render to finish).


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:43:00 pm

yeah, its not good tho -

"If you add or move a clip in the Timeline by dragging, Final Cut Pro moves other clips to make room for it."

You can pop a clip up to the secondary short story poem line (that used to be V2) - but what FCPX does then is place an emergency slug in its place on the main story timeline - the new rules of loony gravity can't be broken - there can be no spaces. This weird pop up and slug fill operation is a leftover allowance for more sophisticated editing operations - how many times have you purposely left a five second hole and then started sliding wee clips into it to see where they could go? casually seeing black in an edit is pretty important I think - its where you can see the next shots.
Apple haven't figured anything new out - Randy has lobotomised the application under orders to hoover up the casual media generator.

FCPs default behaviour and configuration is for a pro-am imovie user to wander in and start pressing buttons. This app is definitively not built for pros. the new way to edit is to edit if you didn't really know how, and the software will try to keep the show on the road.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:52:29 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yeah, its not good tho"

The Position tool appears to do exactly what you want. What's your complaint here? That FCP X doesn't overwrite portions of clips by default, possibly destroying information about editing decisions in the process?

I'm pretty sure that if it used to work non-destructively by default, and they'd modified it to work destructively (e.g. the opposite of what happened), people would be claiming this proved it wasn't a 'pro' app because no 'pro' app would overwrite clips without asking.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Stefan Buhrmester
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:06:07 am

Exactly. All hail the new Position tool. And before someone screems "THIS ONLY WORKS ON THE PRIMARY STORYLINE" just select a connected clip, press CMD+G and voila, you can now use all editing tools on the connected storyline you have just created.

The new Timeline is really awesome. The lack of important features, though, still sucks :(


Return to posts index

Michael Aranyshev
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:44:46 am

Real FCP did not defaulted to either insert or overwrite. You, an editor, decided that for each clip you put on the timeline the moment you were putting it on the timeline. This is The Right Thing. Setting Insert or Overwrite as a mode before you start to cut is the wrong thing, no matter which of them is default. Yes, they're modal in almost every NLE but it is stupid anyway.


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:53:15 am

Yeah, it is somewhat annoying that you can't switch modes while dragging. But this annoyance is a far cry from the 'FCP X is not a pro tool because it keeps rearranging my timeline" talking point we keep hearing.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Jean-Fran├žois Robichaud
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 3:34:48 am

"Real FCP did not defaulted to either insert or overwrite. You, an editor, decided that for each clip you put on the timeline the moment you were putting it on the timeline. This is The Right Thing. Setting Insert or Overwrite as a mode before you start to cut is the wrong thing, no matter which of them is default."

You can do choose whether to Insert or Overwrite a clip by using the shortcuts (W for insert, D for overwrite, Q for connect, E for append) or use the buttons above the timeline. It's true that dragging a clip only allows an Insert or Connect edit. I can't find a way to overwrite while dragging... so far, RTFM they say, but I haven't had the time :).


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:39:29 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that is so funny. the whole timeline sliding around like jello. edits cut to music all going to hell. it's hilarious."

Try the 'Position' tool.

Not to put too fine a point on it but, this is a perfect example of the "FCP X works differently, I don't know how it works, and I'm going to assume anything I can't immediately figure out must not be possible at all" phenomenon I was describing in the other thread.

Basically, Apple has changed behavior the Select tool to enable automatic ripping, which didn't exist at all in FCP 7. But the 'Position' tool still works in an 'overwrite' mode, and leaves gaps if you pull a clip off of a track (storyline) entirely. There's also a 'replace with gap' command, to delete a clip from the timeline without ripping anything.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Jim Giberti
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 1:49:35 am

There are two things happening here today.
People spending the time to get a good first sense of a new a paradigm and people spreading a bit of hysteria and misinformation because they haven't.

There are a number of initial, mostly in/out issues that will make this a no-go for bigger edit houses and smaller ones that work with a lot of outside sources and clients, multicam work and third party colorists and audio post and partner studios.

I empathize with them. But I also think those issues will be addressed in the near future. For countless creative shops like ours that work completely digitally and handle post all in-house, the new FCPX and Motion are looking really nice. I've already assessed a lot of hours per project that the new paradigm will save us, and frankly I hated the media management of FCP and have been aching for a good GUI and fast work flow.

This is all of that and the increase in processing speed is just another of many big plusses.

Ain't perfect yet but it's a brand new approach to our craft and a far better one even in version 1.
It's going to be a great new environment for a lot of us.
Really not too worried about protecting our privates.


Return to posts index

David A Fenton
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:51:20 pm

this is the one thing that concerns me. iMovie metaphor has been cool for a lot of things, but music video editing seemed way easier in FCP7. I hope FCP X can handle this task.

David A Fenton


Return to posts index

Mark Suszko
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 1:30:04 am

That tears it, I'm going back to Key Grip.

:-)


Return to posts index

Sohrab Sandhu
Re: one more kick in the groin.
on Jun 22, 2011 at 1:39:09 am

[David A Fenton] "iMovie metaphor has been cool for a lot of things, but music video editing seemed way easier in FCP7. I hope FCP X can handle this task."

Is that a joke?

Wat exactly do you mean?



Sohrab

2.66 GHz 8-core, ATI Radeon HD 4870,
FCS 3, AJA Kona Lhi



"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]