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upgrade 10.0.4 ???

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Andy Borowa
upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 2:11:13 pm

Look at Balckamgic:

What's new in Desktop Video 9.2.1
• Support for Final Cut Pro X 10.0.4 !!!!!!

--
Pozdro
Andy


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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 2:51:41 pm

Rumors say 10.0.4 happening "around NAB" which is a little bit fuzzy but given that Apple wants to steal the show (OK just still a little bit of show) one might see this in the next week. If it's significant, they'll get buzz without a booth. In fact the few (scant few) showing their products with X might have it installed.

If you've been looking at the timing of update, the pattern is around every 12 weeks and, except for 10.0.2, they tended to add noteworthy features or improvements.



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Oliver Peters
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:02:04 pm

[Craig Seeman] " In fact the few (scant few) showing their products with X might have it installed. "

I would expect to see demos with workflows including X (probably 10.0.3, but...) at Autodesk, Blackmagic, AJA, CatDV, and whatever Building4Media is listed as, to name a few. Maybe also Active Storage and Filmlight, too.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:06:57 pm

Oliver, that's a kernel for a Pre NAB article/blog post.

"Where you might find FCPX at NAB and why?"



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Oliver Peters
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:17:29 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Oliver, that's a kernel for a Pre NAB article/blog post"

You're right. Not sure thought if I can get to that in time. Getting ramped up for the show, which means getting all the "real" work done first ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Neil Goodman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 2:54:16 pm

damn , thats 2 updates, and no bug fixes/stability fixes for Media Composer. =WTH

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Jacob Lanum
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:30:22 pm

actually Avid has released a bug fix, and it's %100 stable


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Steve Connor
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:35:44 pm

[Jacob Lanum] "actually Avid has released a bug fix, and it's %100 stable
"


100% stable? Surely no NLE is that?

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Neil Goodman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:40:16 pm

as of when?

6.0.1 is the last update from Avid, and if there own forums are any indication its not 100 percent stable, id say more like 75 percent if that.

in fact, its not just BM; AJA MAtrox and MOTU users are all having issues, especially with CAPS LOCK engaged.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Oliver Peters
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 11, 2012 at 1:46:24 am

[Neil Goodman] "6.0.1 is the last update from Avid, and if there own forums are any indication its not 100 percent stable, id say more like 75 percent if that. "

All I can say is that I'm running FCP X and Symphony 6.0.1 and the Avid software is way more stable and reliable than FCP X at this point. I am running both in software-only configurations.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Thomas Frank
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:40:30 pm

No its not, in fact we have a issue with the two graphic cards. Avid is working on it.
Not as fast as Apple but they are working it... well that what the hotline said.

Could tis typo on the Blackmagic page? ;)



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Lance Bachelder
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 4:42:25 pm

Hah... I know one HIGH-END facility in L.A. that is switching their MC 6 machines back to 5.5. MC6 is so buggy and unreliable they can't use it. This is an uber inside alpha/beta 20 year Avid user facility... grass isn't always greener...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 4:51:53 pm

That's interesting. It's speaks more broadly to Avid's changing approach and the entire NLE/Software industry.

There was a time when Avid would be many many months behind certifying compatibility with an Apple OS update. Now it seems they, along with many other companies, are pulling the trigger on releases much more quickly.

When I was an Engineer at and Avid facility (both Mac and Windows) my approach was to upgrade just one system in the first week. This allowed for the ability to bail to another room if the upgrade was unstable. The next week would be another room upgraded. Usually by the third week I'd have a pretty good picture and it was after a third room of reliable performance that everything moved up.



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Thomas Frank
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 5:21:57 pm

They should go forward with a different App.



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Steve Connor
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 3:41:25 pm

[Andy Borowa] "Look at Balckamgic:

What's new in Desktop Video 9.2.1
• Support for Final Cut Pro X 10.0.4 !!!!!!
"


Perhaps the update will be today, BMD have released updated drivers at the same time as FCP updates, as they are in Australia they may have released early due to timezone?

Looking forward to seeing what the new update adds, fixes and breaks!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Jim Giberti
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 4:12:21 pm

They've asked for feedback and have certainly gotten a lot.

As I work on this new project I frustrate a bit over the little niggling things that could be fixed simply and have found a balance of stability by strictly managing project memory.

I've been anticipating 0.4 and can't wait to see what they address.

I think it might be a good indicator of where we're going. It would certainly show that they're focused on rapid development.

We'll see.


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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 4:37:28 pm

I think Apple's doing a bit of a juggling act at the moment, which I think is understandable (even if some don't like it).

They're pursuing new features very aggressively to prove its worth to the "professional" community (define "pro" as you wish). They're also pursuing stability issues. The problem is their resources see to be somewhat divided and with each round of new features there's another round of stability issues introduced. I suspect it's going to be that why for much of the rest of this year since there's real market pressure to introduce features and improve "internals" to keep third party developers (and professionals) interested.

As the application matures, I suspect they'll be a greater shift towards stability improvements. I know many would argue that without stability the features are pointless but please realize without new features, a huge portion of the market is going to be screaming "toy." Understand the challenge Apple is facing in trying to address both . . . and doing it on what appears to be a 12 week release schedule!

_______
And to go off on a bit of a tangent...
This is why I believe Apple is very serious about FCPX in the Mac ecosystem. I can't believe this is an easy project for them to manage.

I also think they didn't enter this situation without some awareness of what they would have to do and in what time frame. It's why I think the sudden EOL of FCS involved some very difficult internal issues.

And if you don't think FCS/FCPX has an impact on Mac sales. . . well just look at the talk of Windows on this list. FCPX is a key part of the ecosystem and what happens to in will impact MBP and iMac sales and where a MacPro replacement places in all this.

To spin the tangent a bit deeper, Appleinsider posted that Apple's Thunderbolt monitor has 26% of LED LCD sales 24" and up in North America. That's a major drop from 53% in 2010. I'd guess two factors are involved in that. That MacPro sales are all but gone and that this is a Glossy monitor.

We can speculate what this may be leading to but in my own guess (which many of you will disagree with) is that the importance of FCPX, MacPro (replacement), a professional non Glossy monitor, has in impacting sales. And if you all are going to shift to windows, it's going to have an impact on MBP and iMac sales as well. I think Apple gets the connectedness of this ecosystem and it's part of why they are pushing very hard with FCPX. I also think they have been prepared to weather this precisely because they have other robust sources of revenue. I think we're in the early stages of seeing this part of the company rebuilt.



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Tapio Haaja
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 4:42:25 pm

I think it'd make sense to release 10.0.4 cause today is 10.4. :)

Best
Tapio Haaja

On-Air Promotion Producer
http://avseikkailuja.blogspot.com/


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Lance Bachelder
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 4:51:21 pm

Today is cool :) But I do think it would be smart to release it this week. Since Apple no longer has an official presence at trade shows, they may get lost in the hoopla if they wait until the weekend or during the NAB show when Autodesk, Adobe, Avid etc etc are gonna be fighting for the headlines. They could actually steal everyones thunder if they do something significant this week...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Walter Soyka
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 5:13:11 pm

I've got an alternate theory on the 12 week release cycle.

I think that Apple was just plain late on FCPX development. I think that they would have preferred for 10.0.3 to have been 10.0.0.

While the rapid release cycle certainly shows a lot work being done, I think that they are still playing catch-up. It's my uninformed speculation that most of what we've seen in the dot releases so far has been in development for some time, and just not ready for prior release.

I'll be curious to see how the FCPX release pipeline evolves. Will we continue seeing regular, quarterly releases? Will the releases be as regular and notable once all the big missing items are backfilled and the glaring stability/performance questions resolved?


[Craig Seeman] "And if you don't think FCS/FCPX has an impact on Mac sales. . . well just look at the talk of Windows on this list. FCPX is a key part of the ecosystem and what happens to in will impact MBP and iMac sales and where a MacPro replacement places in all this."

I do think it has an impact on Mac sales. I'm not sure Apple particularly cares. If they do, they have a funny way of showing it.


[Craig Seeman] "I think Apple gets the connectedness of this ecosystem and it's part of why they are pushing very hard with FCPX. I also think they have been prepared to weather this precisely because they have other robust sources of revenue. I think we're in the early stages of seeing this part of the company rebuilt."

Rebuilt into what?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 5:44:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think that Apple was just plain late on FCPX development. I think that they would have preferred for 10.0.3 to have been 10.0.0. "

That's certainly a reasonable line of thinking. I do think that EOL of FCS was sudden and it and other internal issues, really mucked with what they hoped would be a very different release schedule. I myself have mentioned that Apple past history with EOL products and changes in technology have always had reasonably long transition periods.

[Walter Soyka] "I think that they are still playing catch-up. "

Absolutely. That's why I see the juggle continuing for at least the rest of this year. There's an 18 month transition period that they never got to have. Look at OS9 to OSX or PPC to Intel and several other "lesser" tech transitions they've made.

[Walter Soyka] "I do think it has an impact on Mac sales. I'm not sure Apple particularly cares. If they do, they have a funny way of showing it."

I guess it depends what portion are buying MBP and iMacs and why. What portion are "creative professionals" and what happens if they migrate to Windows. Keep in mind that an NLE is one part of an ecosystem which also involves to some extent or another people who use tools ranging from Photoshop to After Effects to any number of Audio software DAWs. And each one of those working professionals may be buying computers for home use, travel, family members. Apple certainly has had "halo" as part of it's marketing strategy.

I think the drop in sales in the Cinema Display (now Thunderbolt) is an indicator. It's not a one to one relationship but it's meaningful IMHO. In fact I hear that the growth in Mac sales in the upcoming quarterly report from Apple is going to be much lower than in previous quarters.

That there are rumors of anti glare monitors surfacing is an indication they do care (assuming the rumors are true). In fact if Thunderbolt is for the creative and Thunderbolt is the monitor connector and the ONLY Thunderbolt monitor they make isn't suited for the creative professional, that would be a "funny" (awkward) product relationship.

It's not that this is all the result of FCPX but it does mean a bunch of pieces are problematic. This is the lack of new models which relates to Intel chip delays as well of course.

i think Apple is going to address their Mac (non iOS) division with some fixes/changes and FCPX is part (not sole or even the biggest) of that puzzle.



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Walter Soyka
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 6:13:40 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I guess it depends what portion are buying MBP and iMacs and why. What portion are "creative professionals" and what happens if they migrate to Windows. Keep in mind that an NLE is one part of an ecosystem which also involves to some extent or another people who use tools ranging from Photoshop to After Effects to any number of Audio software DAWs. And each one of those working professionals may be buying computers for home use, travel, family members. Apple certainly has had "halo" as part of it's marketing strategy. "

I get it. I'm a good exemplar of both the halo effect and FCP as linchpin. FCP wasn't even my primary app -- AE and C4D are -- but I was sticking to Macs for my studio because of FCP anyway.

At the moment, ProRes encode is the only linchpin left.

Here's a question: what makes the creative professional space a meaningful market for Apple in 2012? Creative pros kept Apple alive in the 1990s, but how much strategic value does the creative pro market hold for Apple anymore?


[Craig Seeman] "I think the drop in sales in the Cinema Display (now Thunderbolt) is an indicator. It's not a one to one relationship but it's meaningful IMHO."

I don't think more budget-conscious Mac Mini purchasers are going to buy a Cinema Display. I would have guessed the big market for Cinema Displays would have been Mac Pro purchasers, but if Mac Pro sales are slumping because the machine is so outdated, wouldn't that show up in display sales, too?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 6:41:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I get it. I'm a good exemplar of both the halo effect and FCP as linchpin. FCP wasn't even my primary app -- AE and C4D are -- but I was sticking to Macs for my studio because of FCP anyway.

At the moment, ProRes encode is the only linchpin left.

Here's a question: what makes the creative professional space a meaningful market for Apple in 2012? Creative pros kept Apple alive in the 1990s, but how much strategic value does the creative pro market hold for Apple anymore?"


What portion of MBP and iMac sales are creative professionals? if it's insignificant it means one thing. If it's significant than it means something else. If Apple does care about Mac sales and creative pros are a significant portion then the halo effect is very important.

Why are MBPs a leader (at least as far as growth) in the laptop space?
Why are iMacs a leader in the all in one space?
Are they game machines of choice over Windows boxes? (certainly NOT IMHO).

I just can't help but believe the "creative pro" is still a driving force behind Mac sales more generally (remember I'm NOT talking about FCPX as the primary reason for the purchase).

[Walter Soyka] "I don't think more budget-conscious Mac Mini purchasers are going to buy a Cinema Display. I would have guessed the big market for Cinema Displays would have been Mac Pro purchasers, but if Mac Pro sales are slumping because the machine is so outdated, wouldn't that show up in display sales, too?"

Certainly regarding the MacPros. That's part of my point. But the monitor situation is also a problem for iMacs if that's Apple MacPro alternative. It's a built in glossy monitor.

As to the MacMini, what you have is either a Thunderbolt monitor or an HDMI monitor. The latter are certainly plentiful and inexpensive.

Interesting though is some of the "take" I hear on Thunderbolt monitors and their value to the "baby" Macs. A Thunderbolt monitor adds a whole bunch of connectivity to the MacBook Air.

Leave it to Apple to find a way to get people to spend a lot for a monitor when they buy the lease powerful, least expensive computers in their product line.

I just can't help but think Apple's working on putting the pieces together. We'll have to see about where they go with monitors and MacPro replacement (that and the Mini are their only two monitorless computers).



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Chris Harlan
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 7:44:42 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Rebuilt into what?"

I've been using the new Apple TV (I've had the old ones for some time) and it REALLY works. Over the weekend, I made iPhone videos of Easter egg hunts and related adventures, and played them back instantly on the living room big screen to the shock, joy and amazement of all relatives present. All of the TV shows I've ever bought are now instantly available for streamed playback on any of the many devices we have laying around. I mean, I could just go on and on about how well this stuff all works. The whole thin client thing that Apple is bringing together sparkles. [I mean, I have my qualms and fears about a world of lives integrated around centralized servers, and I'm not sure it is a good thing as much as it is an inevitable thing. But lets set that aside, and focus on the warm and fuzzy.] This is what Apple is now. I just don't believe the old four-box model applies to them anymore. I think they are just beyond it. They don't NEED to be in content creation anymore. So, my guess is, that increasingly they will not be.

And, really, that probably is a good thing for the various smaller, struggling companies that do need/want to be in content creation. Apple burned a lot of them, last decade, so that they could sell G5s and Mac Pros. Final Cut Pro may have been a huge, infection-inducing thorn in Avid's otherwise thick skin, but it was just a plain killer to companies like InSync whose NLEs offered Avid true peer-to-peer competition.

Lastly, I think I'll drop the few bucks on iMovie for my iPhone and iPad. The egg hunts could use a few quick trims before I semi-instantly play them back.


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Thomas Frank
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 8:37:24 pm

Okay, well let see what real Marketing agent would see or say when you give him that example...
What of that market gets saturated and drops? Oh yeah we lost that other market.
It's good to have big profit share but it is better to have all of them. Right?



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Chris Harlan
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 9:08:16 pm

[Thomas Frank] "Okay, well let see what real Marketing agent would see or say when you give him that example...
What of that market gets saturated and drops? Oh yeah we lost that other market.
It's good to have big profit share but it is better to have all of them. Right?
"


I fear I don't follow what you are saying. Companies re-prioritize all the time. They sometimes let whole, healthy divisions or product lines go because it suits their focus to do so. Apple is doing plenty of things about future market saturation, including becoming a leading content distributor. And the further they move toward the center of their thin client businesses, the farther they are moving from their workstation business. Remember, Apple used to be in the printer business, too. Though I suppose that could change back again:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/new-apple-ceo-tim-cook-im-thinking-printer...


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Thomas Frank
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 9:22:57 pm

Yes some do this but how successfully are they? Look at the company's especially in the Automobile market that wrote black numbers during the recent industry depression or drop... VW, Audi, BMW they did not only focus on there strong saling product but on all fronts.



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Walter Soyka
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 9:32:17 pm

[Thomas Frank] "Yes some do this but how successfully are they? Look at the company's especially in the Automobile market that wrote black numbers during the recent industry depression or drop... VW, Audi, BMW they did not only focus on there strong saling product but on all fronts."

All fronts? Do VW, Audi, and BMW make, say, pickup trucks?

Pretty much everyone narrows their focus. It's called specialization. It's one of the advantages of a developed economy. Since no one has to do literally everything, we are free to develop deep skills in very narrow niches. Society as a whole benefits by aggregating these deep skill sets into a collection of incredible breadth.

The question of whether Apple will specialize away from creative pros is meaningful.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Thomas Frank
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 9:41:10 pm

VW yes they do even trucks real trucks not these Dodge or Ford pickup toys ;)
Audi from Small to High end all the way to the none profit racing market. BMW is on the same track.
If you want to call it specialization then they are... they are specialized in given everybody a good product not just one group. :)
The question is Apple that smart? ;)



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Walter Soyka
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 9:55:59 pm

[Thomas Frank] "VW yes they do even trucks real trucks not these Dodge or Ford pickup toys ;)
Audi from Small to High end all the way to the none profit racing market. BMW is on the same track.
If you want to call it specialization then they are... they are specialized in given everybody a good product not just one group. :)"


My view may be too US-centric, consider these examples. VW couldn't break into luxury; they had to cancel the Phaeton. Audi won't tarnish their luxe brand image with a minivan, even though their sister company VW has one they could repurpose. BMW doesn't offer an econobox; even the 1-series starts above $30k.

These brands are all carefully segmented and targeted.


Back to your original premise:

[Thomas Frank] "Okay, well let see what real Marketing agent would see or say when you give him that example...
What of that market gets saturated and drops? Oh yeah we lost that other market.
It's good to have big profit share but it is better to have all of them. Right?"


In my experience designing content for marketers, they approach segmentation strategically, not scattershot.

Apple may well have a strategic interest in creative professionals, but it is certainly dwarfed by their interest in consumers.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 10:07:51 pm

[Thomas Frank] "Yes some do this but how successfully are they?"

Sometimes very. Off the top of my head, I think both IBM and Lenovo were happy with their deal. I think Apple was happy to be out of printers.

[Thomas Frank] " VW, Audi, BMW they did not only focus on there strong saling product but on all fronts."

Well, as a matter of fact car manufacturers are always dropping lines and have been since the beginning of the industry, so limiting it to whatever happened during the peak of the last global economic crisis does not make for a persuasive argument. But also, this is illustrates how we disagree about the basic situation. You see Pro Apps and Mac Pros as being a car division alongside other car divisions. While I agree that that was the case, I now see them as, say, a division that makes lawn mowers sitting next to a division that makes a whole fleet of cars.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 10:57:02 pm

great post. rings true. I'm agog at the general cloud backup of apps and tunes on my ipod and ipad, and I am getting increasing urges to get an apple TV. It feels like Apple is building the real thing this time, with all the content creators in place.
you'd nearly think they are getting ready to do a full ipod level stroke on media as a whole.

Also mucho agree with the sentiment of our area being less existentially confused if they just visibly withdraw - at least then market reality can re-assert and we'll all know what way is up after having gotten thrown out of the FCP pram.

You can get imovie onto the first gen ipad now. just installed it. runs lovely.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:30:37 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "and I am getting increasing urges to get an apple TV. It feels like Apple is building the real thing this time, with all the content creators in place.
you'd nearly think they are getting ready to do a full ipod level stroke on media as a whole......You can get imovie onto the first gen ipad now. just installed it. runs lovely."


Now that's just clear evidence for alien abduction, if you ask me. ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:41:30 pm

mate!

I love the gestalt of Apple - I am reared on them, from an amelio Performa on for god's sake.

my issue is with the cupertino sewer dwelling, messily confused, dying, pro apps substructure horribly dragging its entrails out of the industry of editing over an agonising three year period...

that particular mess... I do have an issue with. ;)

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jason Jenkins
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 5:18:06 pm

[Craig Seeman] "To spin the tangent a bit deeper, Appleinsider posted that Apple's Thunderbolt monitor has 26% of LED LCD sales 24" and up in North America. That's a major drop from 53% in 2010. I'd guess two factors are involved in that. That MacPro sales are all but gone and that this is a Glossy monitor."

I'd probably have one on my desk right now if they offered a matte screen option.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 5:59:55 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "I'd probably have one on my desk right now if they offered a matte screen option."

This is a strong key point.

Let's say, for argument sake, Apple was dropping the MacPro and not replacing it. The iMac is a problem for many creative professionals (it's not just with video post) with its one built in glossy monitor.

The rumors have been around an "anti glare" built in monitor for the iMac. It would stand to reason that, if that comes to pass, the stand alone Thunderbolt monitor would have an anti glare variant as well. It simply makes no business sense otherwise. If anything, the significant drop in market share between 2010 and 2012 is a strong indicator of that.

At the very least, even if Apple were to go with the higher end iMac as their "creative professional" system they'd have to have anti glare monitors. The MBP at least has an antiglare option but no option to attach it to an Apple made anti glare monitor at the moment. The MacPro has no Apple made anti glare monitor option as well.

I'm always one to throw in a "stretched tangent" into a discussion but I might add that when you consider a MacPro replacement with no monitor attached, that helps the sale of an anti glare Thunderbolt monitor.

If they replace the MacPro with some monitorless power box and you must use a Thunderbolt monitor, that's another $2K as part of the peripheral sales if Apple can deliver on the monitor (which as per above can make MBP and iMac using creative professional happy as well).

Just to be clear, my stretched tangent is that the $3000 Power Box becomes a $5000 purchase given the two Thunderbolt monitors needed/desired. It's part of my thinking in how Apple might make the Power Box into something a bit more viable for them as far as locking the creative pro into an Apple ecosystem.



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Walter Soyka
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 6:20:33 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Let's say, for argument sake, Apple was dropping the MacPro and not replacing it. The iMac is a problem for many creative professionals (it's not just with video post) with its one built in glossy monitor."

I don't know, Craig. There are certainly a few of us who prefer matte displays with good reason, but I've seen an awful lot of studios with designers working on un-calibrated glossy iMacs in truly horrendous lighting conditions.

Bill D. has rightly pointed out democratization in discussions like this. I think there's a gulf opening up in between the ones who feel they need things like quality monitoring and the ones who feel they can get good enough results more cheaply without them. Which set will be rewarded by the market is an open question.

Which set will be targeted by Apple, and if Apple even believes in target markets, are also open questions.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 7:37:02 pm

[Walter Soyka] " I think there's a gulf opening up in between the ones who feel they need things like quality monitoring and the ones who feel they can get good enough results more cheaply without them. Which set will be rewarded by the market is an open question.

Which set will be targeted by Apple, and if Apple even believes in target markets, are also open questions."


Walter,

I'm going to push back a bit on the start of this.

Everyone feels they need "quality monitoring." Everyone. Even those who don't know precisely what that is or how to implement/use it.

The problem is that quality monitoring is not trivial. And the target market for "accuracy" (the professional approach) has to co-exist with the broader market that values "looks satisfyingly beautiful to my eyes" - which is a much, much, much bigger market.

But underneath that reality is another one. If you can make the pretty monitor - it's not so near as difficult to make the accurate one. You're just "incrementing" your corporate research - not duplicating it.

I think Apple's approach is to constantly assess what technology can provide. And target that technology to provide the solutions that satisfy their customers, since that's the only rational approach to any business.

The real question here is how large fundamental gap might be between what separates the amateur and the pro - whether that gap is narrowing - and whether or not evolving technology can provide solutions that work in a satisfying fashion for both customers.

Most in this forum are elite users. They want solutions for their very specialized needs that have evolved to represent the top tier of professional use. But that's rarely where Apple has ever initially focused.

They've always focused on a "bottom up" strategy - solving (and sometimes inventing) for the needs of the many first - then refining those needs over time. Often, and Legacy is a great example here - those solutions prove such an outstanding value and have so many of the capabilities that fit with professional needs, that they take over whole market segments.

And they continue to evolve until they not only work for the masses - but they also work for the specialists.

While Apple solutions seldom do that "out of the box" they very often develop into that over time.

Apple's distinctive view is, I think, centered largely upon personal empowerment through technology. My emphasis on personal. Not group empowerment, nor specialist empowerment, nor corporate empowerment, but individual and very personal empowerment.

That drives their thinking.

And it drives X's design. It's a superb tool for the individual video maker right now. With lots of capabilities at an astonishingly affordable price.

And the good news, is that each and every one of those individual users wants a display that is as good as it can be.

When the entire market is consumers, that means bright, shiny pictures that pop. But Apple has shown that over and over again they're not satisfied at stopping there. I think the way they see it, if they can make a few changes and offer a matte screen - or one with more accurate colorometry - that a make a particular device significantly more attractive to another half million fashion designers, or video pros, or food stylists - without at all screwing up their one million base of less demanding "consumer" users, they will probably do so.

Not purely for sales, but because they fundamentally understand that research and invention are the foundations of continued sales success. And if nothing else, their aggressive stance in the patented technology space shows that they're as concerned with building their patent portfolio as they are with building iMac sales.

Apple fundamentally understand that one drives the other. And having the engineering in place to make a more "video friendly" unit of any device is just smart basic business in a world where every larger legions of humans what to make video as well as consume it.

My thinking anyway.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 8:41:49 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm going to push back a bit on the start of this."

That's good -- I think we've accidentally agreed a couple times over the last few weeks.



[Bill Davis] "Everyone feels they need "quality monitoring." Everyone. Even those who don't know precisely what that is or how to implement/use it. "

There were a lot of folks here talking about how FCPX, pre-10.0.3, made broadcast monitoring obsolete. They didn't bother to learn about ColorSync and color management -- they simply thought they already had quality monitoring because it had an Apple logo.

I think that the idea of democratization goes hand-in-hand with the idea of good-enough. In the better-faster-cheaper triangle, democratization picks faster and cheaper, every time. The growing masses don't care for great but slow, or great but expensive. (Nor should they.)


[Bill Davis] "But underneath that reality is another one. If you can make the pretty monitor - it's not so near as difficult to make the accurate one."

Making a pretty monitor and making an accurate monitor are worlds apart, and a pretty monitor has no use to anyone in a color-critical environment.


[Bill Davis] "The real question here is how large fundamental gap might be between what separates the amateur and the pro - whether that gap is narrowing - and whether or not evolving technology can provide solutions that work in a satisfying fashion for both customers."

I think there are huge gaps separating the different classes of pro, too, and I think that those gaps are increasing rapidly. The middle is getting squeezed out towards the ends.


[Bill Davis] "They've always focused on a "bottom up" strategy - solving (and sometimes inventing) for the needs of the many first - then refining those needs over time. Often, and Legacy is a great example here - those solutions prove such an outstanding value and have so many of the capabilities that fit with professional needs, that they take over whole market segments. "

Agreed -- and from a pure product point of view, that might be fine in a few years.

As an issue of trust, though, it's more complicated. As has been stated many times, Apple abandoned the professional post market segment that they fought so hard to win. There were people who used to feel like Apple was there for them who have been ignored in the FCPX reboot.

If you are correct, this abandonment is temporary -- but FCPX will have to become undeniably better than the alternatives across the board to offset the broken trust for many.


[Bill Davis] "Apple's distinctive view is, I think, centered largely upon personal empowerment through technology. My emphasis on personal. Not group empowerment, nor specialist empowerment, nor corporate empowerment, but individual and very personal empowerment. "

I agree. That's why I'm worried about high-end post vanishing on the Mac platform.

I used to feel pretty limitless with Apple. I felt like the platform was growing with me.

Now, if Apple is returning to their core values, I'm concerned that there's a glass ceiling.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:45:33 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Bill Davis] "But underneath that reality is another one. If you can make the pretty monitor - it's not so near as difficult to make the accurate one."

Making a pretty monitor and making an accurate monitor are worlds apart, and a pretty monitor has no use to anyone in a color-critical environment.
"



I don't understand that logic either. In both video and audio, there are many very expensive, very well made devices that are beautiful to watch or listen to, but are absolutely dreadful for monitoring. A number of them are far more expensive than their professional counterparts. That's because they are specifically designed to cover up, blend or otherwise gloss over imperfections, whereas a proper professional monitor is designed to a) reveal imperfections in a manner that is b) consistent and repeatable on similarly calibrated systems. The required monitor designs for attaining accuracy and for attaining "pretty" are hardly complementary.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 10, 2012 at 11:52:45 pm

tl;dr

It all rocks, Apple remaking the world, FCPX is nuclear fusion - i propose the motion and if you don't like it don't read it...


ahemmm.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew Kimery
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 11, 2012 at 12:14:40 am

[Craig Seeman] "
Just to be clear, my stretched tangent is that the $3000 Power Box becomes a $5000 purchase given the two Thunderbolt monitors needed/desired. It's part of my thinking in how Apple might make the Power Box into something a bit more viable for them as far as locking the creative pro into an Apple ecosystem."


I didn't read the whole thread so apologies if I missed something vital, but I don't see how you get locked into Apple's monitors since ThB isn't Apple exclusive and ThB doubles as a Display Port.


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 11, 2012 at 12:23:39 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I didn't read the whole thread so apologies if I missed something vital, but I don't see how you get locked into Apple's monitors since ThB isn't Apple exclusive "

So far, the only Thunderbolt monitor I know of is Apple's.
Stick a display port monitor in there and you've lost the pass through.



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Andrew Kimery
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 11, 2012 at 12:44:21 am

[Craig Seeman] "So far, the only Thunderbolt monitor I know of is Apple's.
Stick a display port monitor in there and you've lost the pass through."


Since non-Apple computers are just now coming out w/ThB I'm sure it will take a year or so for non-Apple monitors to get to market.

As long as display port terminates the loop I thought it could be ThB up until that point. So you couldn't loop thru a monitor using display port but you could end at a monitor using display port.


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Craig Seeman
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 11, 2012 at 1:32:02 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Since non-Apple computers are just now coming out w/ThB I'm sure it will take a year or so for non-Apple monitors to get to market."

I'd expect so too. We'll have to see what happens as Acer, Asus, Lenovo bring their Thunderbolt computers to market.

[Andrew Kimery] "As long as display port terminates the loop I thought it could be ThB up until that point. So you couldn't loop thru a monitor using display port but you could end at a monitor using display port."

The only obvious problem would be the inconvenience having to disconnect the monitor if there were things in front of it in the chain you wanted to remove. There's also the issue of many TB devices not having pass through so in many cases that's not possible such as with Blackmagic or Matrox Video I/O. AJA IO XT has pass through.



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Andrew Kimery
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 11, 2012 at 1:56:54 am

[Craig Seeman] "The only obvious problem would be the inconvenience having to disconnect the monitor if there were things in front of it in the chain you wanted to remove. There's also the issue of many TB devices not having pass through so in many cases that's not possible such as with Blackmagic or Matrox Video I/O. AJA IO XT has pass through."

Agreed. Multiple ThB ports would make sense on all of Apple's computers (w/the exception of the Air). Bye-bye FW800?


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Bill Davis
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 11, 2012 at 2:33:59 am

Doesn't that LaCie hub kinda solve this?

If you have a one to many hub, how important is loop through any more?

Granted, it requires power, but at such low levels, that I can't believe that the market won't enable a battery powered hub that can do this.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: upgrade 10.0.4 ???
on Apr 11, 2012 at 6:29:12 am

[Bill Davis] "Doesn't that LaCie hub kinda solve this?

If you have a one to many hub, how important is loop through any more?

Granted, it requires power, but at such low levels, that I can't believe that the market won't enable a battery powered hub that can do this.
"


The LaCie TBolt hub is for eSATA devices. TBolt can't be split by a hub. It needs a single line like SCSI.


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