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Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X

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T. Payton
Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 4:50:11 pm

Saw this in my email box today, the 25 year anniversary of Adobe Illustrator. Granted I wasn't in the industry at time, but I remember it well. So it might bring back fond memories:

http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/images-graphics/adobe-illustrator-25th-an...

This video is especially nostalgic:







As an Illustrator user since 1991, I can't help think how once tools like Illustrator were a big deal, and only we reserved for the hands of the professionals. This was mostly because the concepts themselves-- of commercial design and computer generated artwork -- were not part of the public vernacular. Fast forward to today, and an App that accomplish about 90% of what Illustrator can do can (today's Illustrator that is) can be purchased on the iPad for a mere $4.99. So in 25 years, we have gone from the specialized use of a technology, to those technologically concepts becoming so common place, my 6 year old can use it (the iPad app that is.)

The rapid changes of our society and technology struck me this weekend when my uncle was asking what iPad Apps I would suggest for his daughters to use on a trip (ages 6 to 10). I said iMovie. They can shoot a video of their trip and edit it right on the device for a mere $4.99. They needed no manual, or training. Just play around with it for a few minutes and go, and they are off to making a vacation video.

One thing that the Illustrator anniversary, and now FCP X, has made me keenly aware of is the incredible pace of the revolution we are engaging in. Apple was truly aiming where the puck will be with FCP X, and many of us dislike where the puck is going to be. Like Luddiites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite) we believe this new technology was a death sentence to our much loved craft. Some of us even lashed out, seeking some type of revenge upon the very ones proposing this new technology.

I don't mean to propose that FCP X is the ultimate tool for production. Apple made a bold move to propose that there was a simpler way to edit, manage, color correct, etc. There has quite a bit of stumbling with the move that Apple has made. But I think we are going to look back FCP X in 3 or 4 years and realize that it changed the course of future NLEs.

Congratulations Adobe on Illustrator. And hats off to Apple for being bold with FCP X.

Let us not be Luddites.

(BTW. I learned about the Luddites in this book, http://www.amazon.com/The-Next-Story-Digital-Explosion/dp/0310329035. It's a book about the intersection of Society, Technology and Theology. It has given me a completely different perspective on FCP X when it is viewed in like of the history of technology. Really meant for a Christian reader, but I'm sure others could enjoy it as well.)

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Craig Seeman
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:12:04 pm

[T. Payton] "pple was truly aiming where the puck will be with FCP X, and many of us dislike where the puck is going to be."

[T. Payton] "But I think we are going to look back FCP X in 3 or 4 years and realize that it changed the course of future NLEs."

Although I'm not the only one here old enough to remember and have used 2" quad machines, my life experience leads me to agree with you. Granted I've also seen many "early attempts" at innovation falter but Apple has the resources to fix things to improve the path of progress.

I was a CMX6000 user and some would have thought CMX was too big to fail. I played with EMC in the early days and they quickly fell to Avid. Apple is pushing things in a new direction with FCPX and while there's a bunch of areas that need improvement, the innovation, to me, is so apparent that I think it will gain momentum. It's going to be a very different industry in 3 or 4 years.



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Gary Huff
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:27:15 pm

[T. Payton] "Apple was truly aiming where the puck will be with FCP X, and many of us dislike where the puck is going to be. Like Luddiites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite) we believe this new technology was a death sentence to our much loved craft. Some of us even lashed out, seeking some type of revenge upon the very ones proposing this new technology."

Okay, I get it: you love Apple and probably believe that this mega-billion dollar corporation can do no wrong.

In the real world, just because something is new and shiny, it doesn't automatically make it the future.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:35:17 pm

[Gary Huff] "In the real world, just because something is new and shiny, it doesn't automatically make it the future."

CMX and the CMX6000 maybe.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:16:49 pm

[Craig Seeman] "CMX and the CMX6000 maybe."

or the Montage, of the Edit Droid, or D2 or ... the list goes on and on. And many of these DeLoreans and Tucker Torpedos of the past contributed good ideas and technology that was adopted by the rest of the industry. So who knows, the demise of X might lead to the eventual adaptation of one click Vimeo buttons.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:31:54 pm

[Herb Sevush] "So who knows, the demise of X might lead to the eventual adaptation of one click Vimeo buttons."

I don't think Apple is going to pull the plug on X for at least several years (never say never as per FCP legacy) but it's certainly possible others may cannibalize some of its innovation such as its keyword and smart collections. Personally I'm using it despite the warts because, for me, the innovation outweighs the issues currently.



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Don Walker
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 10:08:47 pm

[Herb Sevush] "or the Montage, of the Edit Droid, or D2 or .."

Herb,

I never used the Montage or Edit Droid, but D2 was the king of post and playback, until DigiBeta took it's place. I think it was a very successful format, which just became obsolete.
PRE READ forever!!!!!

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Steve Connor
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 10:11:24 pm

[Don Walker] "PRE READ forever!!!!!"

I remember pre read from my Online Editor days, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Herb Sevush
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 10:47:53 pm

[Steve Connor] "I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread!"

Because it was the best thing since sliced bread. I was never an on-line editor, but I loved working with some really good ones, and watching them figure out how to build complicated effects with a single channel of ADO and pre-read was a downright thrill.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Don Walker
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 2:06:36 am

[Herb Sevush] "Because it was the best thing since sliced bread. I was never an on-line editor, but I loved working with some really good ones, and watching them figure out how to build complicated effects with a single channel of ADO and pre-read was a downright thrill."

But in one careless moment it could all be gone....... Unless of course you backed up your layers! Sound familiar?

don walker
texarkana, texas

John 3:16


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Herb Sevush
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 2:09:12 am

[Don Walker] "But in one careless moment it could all be gone....... Unless of course you backed up your layers! "

That's what made the good ones so good - they didn't have careless moments. Besides which, when done properly, everything was in the EDL and could be re-created fairly quickly.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 8:02:57 am

[Herb Sevush] "Because it was the best thing since sliced bread. I was never an on-line editor, but I loved working with some really good ones, and watching them figure out how to build complicated effects with a single channel of ADO and pre-read was a downright thrill.
"


ADO wasn't exactly intuitive to use, but once you learned it there was an awful lot you could do with it.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris Harlan
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 11:29:30 pm

[Steve Connor] ""PRE READ forever!!!!!""

Pre read was hip!


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Herb Sevush
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 10:43:55 pm

[Don Walker] "D2 was the king of post and playback, until DigiBeta took it's place. I think it was a very successful format, which just became obsolete. "

That's the point. A lot of things were popular for a few years and then became a sidebar in the evolution of post. If you invested all your money in D2 gear, you weren't happy when NLE's became capable of outputting broadcast quality signals, anymore than you would be if you had placed your bet on a Montage.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 8:47:34 pm

[Gary Huff] "[T. Payton] "Apple was truly aiming where the puck will be with FCP X, and many of us dislike where the puck is going to be. Like Luddiites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite) we believe this new technology was a death sentence to our much loved craft. Some of us even lashed out, seeking some type of revenge upon the very ones proposing this new technology."

Okay, I get it: you love Apple and probably believe that this mega-billion dollar corporation can do no wrong.

In the real world, just because something is new and shiny, it doesn't automatically make it the future.
"



I DO get a little tired of this naive, extremely patronizing notion that if you don't embrace FCX with a 3rd degree tent pole, there must be something wrong with you--that you are some fuddy, unwilling to embrace the new, and that you stand there like MR D.B. Gumby, shouting "My Brain Hurts!" It is just such a shallow POV.







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Jim Giberti
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:31:51 pm

[T. Payton] " Like Luddiites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite) we believe this new technology was a death sentence to our much loved craft. Some of us even lashed out, seeking some type of revenge upon the very ones proposing this new technology."

We worked with that first version. I love new technology then and now.

But you're not a Luddite for wanting new technology to actually be superior to old technology - you're just a demanding professional trying to get your job done today without the luxury of the long view.

When FCPX's performance matches it's potential then maybe it becomes an Illustrator.

As someone who's cutting another project with it right now.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:38:46 pm

[Jim Giberti] "When FCPX's performance matches it's potential then maybe it becomes an Illustrator."

Note T. Payton said 3 to 4 years. Not that we know the future, not that Illustrator had much in the way of similar competitors but it may be FCPX is more distantly related to the current NLEs than some think.



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Jim Giberti
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:48:40 pm

[Craig Seeman] "[Jim Giberti] "When FCPX's performance matches it's potential then maybe it becomes an Illustrator."

Note T. Payton said 3 to 4 years. Not that we know the future, not that Illustrator had much in the way of similar competitors but it may be FCPX is more distantly related to the current NLEs than some think."


Right, is that somehow not congruous with my post?


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Craig Seeman
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:03:39 pm

[Jim Giberti] "Right, is that somehow not congruous with my post?"

Not at all. Just emphasizing that point (placing an accent mark as it were).



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Steve Connor
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:03:05 pm

[Jim Giberti] "When FCPX's performance matches it's potential then maybe it becomes an Illustrator.

As someone who's cutting another project with it right now.
"


Could I ask why you are still using FCPX after your horror story of an experience with it?

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Craig Seeman
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:06:57 pm

[Steve Connor] "Could I ask why you are still using FCPX after your horror story of an experience with it?"

Just a guess from the peanut gallery but maybe the same reason I continued to use FCP legacy despite some real horror stories due to serious (catastrophic) bugs in the program and related.



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Jim Giberti
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:58:29 pm

[Steve Connor] "Could I ask why you are still using FCPX after your horror story of an experience with it?
"


I think Craig probably said it right regarding the innovations and toughing through the early FCP days.

I was motivated to figure out what needs to be done to operate it at it's optimum through those messes.
I'm intrigued by it's potential.
It does do many things elegantly and flexibly.
It's half amateur and half pro and I'm hoping the pro half wins.
Add track capability and audio mixing and it could be our future.
I really need to see if it's X or possibly PP6 going forward...it's not going to be 7 or avid for us in the long run.

Finally Steve, I decided (I've got some time with this promo piece) to virtually start from scratch with X implementing every organizational and management technique possible to see how it would perform with this project.
I'm willing to work with it's short comings if it's going to mature quickly. If not, we're going to have to go elsewhere and I want to know that I gave it a real shot.


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Steve Connor
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 7:10:42 pm

[Jim Giberti] "Finally Steve, I decided (I've got some time with this promo piece) to virtually start from scratch with X implementing every organizational and management technique possible to see how it would perform with this project.
I'm willing to work with it's short comings if it's going to mature quickly. If not, we're going to have to go elsewhere and I want to know that I gave it a real shot.
"


I'm impressed by your tenacity, many people would have not given FCPX another chance. I'm hoping for a 10.04 release shortly to fix some of the issues that .03 seems to have caused, at the moment it seems like Apple are moving quite fast with development, I hope it continues.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Jim Giberti
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 7:18:31 pm

[Steve Connor] "I'm impressed by your tenacity, many people would have not given FCPX another chance. I'm hoping for a 10.04 release shortly to fix some of the issues that .03 seems to have caused, at the moment it seems like Apple are moving quite fast with development, I hope it continues.
"


As I said in another thread, If nothing else, I am persistent.

I'll definitely give a heads up regarding this new project.
Aside from some pickup scenes that have to be shot next week, I've got everything organized and squeaky clean for the edit.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:35:13 pm

T. Payton,


You've dragged out the usual straw man arguments (once again): that those who are critical of FCPX are acting out of emotion and fear (fear of change, fear of technology, etc.), and further that Apple is somehow "right" about the future just because they've done something "new".

If you've been following the forum here, you would find a wide range of challenges to both those assertions.

[T. Payton] "Apple made a bold move to propose that there was a simpler way to edit, manage, color correct, etc."

You got this part right ... Apple has made a proposal. The other part of the equation is how users have, and will, react.

You point to a success story like Illustrator, but you neglect that there are many stories of failure - which will FCPX be?


Franz.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:06:38 pm

yeah, I found parts of that argument very straw man-ish, and a wee bit irritating.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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T. Payton
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 8:43:53 pm

Glad to see the discussion. So my comparing some of us editors to Luddiets is a straw-man? Now that you brought it up I see your point. I did jump quickly to that conclusion without supporting it.

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that FCP X is Illustrator (not at all!), just that it reminded me that we are in the middle of a revolution. When computer graphics were new (25 years ago) it was only utilized by a few graphic professionals (I being one of them). Today computer graphics are as common in our society and utilized by many more people than just graphic professionals. And the tools have been so refined and simplified that practically anyone can use it without having to go through extensive training. The has benefited both the consumer and the professional. Video is now in the process of undergoing a similar revolution. Once the tools were only in the hands of the professionals, now video is "in the hands of the people" so to speak, including my 9 year old cousin.

Regarding the Luddites... The craftsmen were very bothered by the fact that the new textiles being spit out by machines were of inferior quality that those made by the craftsman. They were right to criticize it. But in their attempt to stop the new machines, it consumed their lives and some were even put to death in punishment of their crimes.

Although that is much more extreme than what I have done, it is a good warning to not let my distaste of these things consume me. Instead I should be attentive to my own work, and doing a good job in my craft, and not throw the new technology under the bus because it is "simpler" or that non-professionals are using it.

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Gary Huff
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 12:07:51 am

[T. Payton] "Video is now in the process of undergoing a similar revolution. Once the tools were only in the hands of the professionals, now video is "in the hands of the people" so to speak, including my 9 year old cousin."

And they are proceeding to fill content channels with utter crap.


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Richard Herd
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 10:21:26 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "straw man"

There's no straw man there, which means he builds the contradictory point of view in order to knock it down. Instead, we get his subjective experience. This is not imply the existence of an entity named "objective experience." (See also existential fallacy.)

Are you unconvinced by his inability to establish ethos? Perhaps.

He is also a fine contributor to the FCPX techniques forum and has obviously been using the software in an advanced way. His techniques actually work, and if he says FCPX makes him feel like it did when he learned Illustrated, then I believe him. In no way does he imply that you or I must also feel like he felt and feels.

While I'm on the topic, it's really difficult for anyone who hasn't actually worked (not toyed with, worked) in X to say anything convincing about it or critique it because it is impossible to establish ethos. Jim's well documented issues are a fine example...as are mine. The absurdist line of reasoning (ergo, business decisions of folks who had to buy something) so far has been humorous and twinged with lament; as if Waiting for Godot is now Waiting for Apple.

To be sure: I really don't care what editing system, power saw, hammer anyone uses.

I would however love to read the license agreements between apple and the developers who collaborated (if you will) to deliver FCP Legacy.

All in brotherly love!


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 10:55:29 pm

[Richard Herd] "There's no straw man there, which means he builds the contradictory point of view in order to knock it down."


Richard,


His view is that Apple's FCPX is revolutionary. He paints a character of those who do not share this view:

Apple was truly aiming where the puck will be with FCP X, and many of us dislike where the puck is going to be.
...
Like Luddites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite) we believe this new technology was a death sentence to our much loved craft.
...
Let us not be Luddites.


(See my post below for a clearer picture of Luddites and their aims.)

The implication is that those who do not view FCPX as revolutionary are Luddites (with his meaning and negative connotation) and a bit emotional about it all.

I'll be clear: I don't know where "the puck" will be, and can't say that I dislike the future he seems to know. I don't feel FCPX represents any kind of threat or death to a craft (loved or otherwise). I am also not convinced that FCPX is a good tool for me (though I am still undecided).

There are many here who are just assessing FCPX as a tool, and it comes up a bit short in that assessment.


[Richard Herd] "... it's really difficult for anyone who hasn't actually worked (not toyed with, worked) in X to say anything convincing about it or critique it ..."

This is true to a limited extent (though "difficult" does not mean impossible); on the other hand (and this was not true when FCP first debuted) there is a fairly broad, varied field of choices right now for NLEs. A piece of software now has to actually attract my interest for me to invest time and energy into learning it.

This is change and progress, too.


Franz.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 5:52:59 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I'll be clear: I don't know where "the puck" will be"

Franz, I know where the puck won't be... I can assure you, it's not gonna wind up in either Albuquerque or Phoenix.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com
Sales | Integration | Support


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:38:33 pm

"[T. Payton]...and an App that accomplish about 90% of what Illustrator can do can (today's Illustrator that is) can be purchased on the iPad for a mere $4.99."

Which app is this? It would be great to have a vector drawing application that powerful on a tablet... assuming I can get useful files in and out of it. It would even be worth buying and iPad.

Thanks,

Shawn



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Craig Shields
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 8:17:58 pm

Illustrator was the first program that I learned while I was co-oping at NASA. The contractors didn't want to teach me anything. The manager wouldn't give me any work, so I went into the conference room everyday, watched the tape and mastered the Pen tool. Photoshop was the second. When I did go back to school, I was a guru.



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Michael Gissing
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:05:17 pm

Obviously the term Luddite has morphed from a historical description to a term of derision for anyone who disagrees with your view on current technology. T Payton, you should know better if you have at least read some of the history of the Ludittes so I wonder why you have misrepresented so many here who have legitimate complaints about this software.

I am using Fairlight for sound post. Fairlight invented sampling back in the 1970's so you could say it is like my grandfathers favourite axe - many heads and lots of handles later, it is still his favourite axe. Same with Illustrator and Final Cut X. No semblance of the original code and many variations in concepts and execution but the name sticks.

As to the future, your teas leaves are no more useful than mine and certainly not grounds to criticise others for whom this software is clearly not targeting. If that makes me a Ludditte, then after a 30 year career at the bleeding edge of testing beta software and promoting DAW and NLE workflows I accept your new definition with pride.


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T. Payton
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 11:32:57 pm

[Michael Gissing] "T Payton, you should know better if you have at least read some of the history of the Ludittes so I wonder why you have misrepresented so many here who have legitimate complaints about this software"

Indeed I should have known better. I re-read my post and realized that it indeed sounded like I said if someone didn't embrace FCP X they were not accepting technology and therefore a Luddite. That was not my intention. I was speaking of a technology becoming persuasive in culture to the point of it becoming very inexpensive, simplified and yet dummed down from the professional perspective. I was also apparently projecting my own thoughts and emotions on others, of which I apologize.

I admit my ignorance also. Here in the Western United States "Luddite" is not part of the vocabulary, and I had not heard the term until I read of it recently.

I appreciate the rebuke.

Also, I take no shame in saying that I am a fan of Apple, although a critic also. Apple has been used in my life to not only give a young kid something to aspire to (I got an Apple II when I was 12), but allow me to support my family (I worked at a place called MacTemps for a while right out of college), to starting a business with little more than a Quadra 610 and QuarkXPress. Now I support a larger family and a thriving business with the help of Apple hardware and software (and mostly Adobe software too). Apple doesn't just make gadgets, they have fundamentally changed the culture. If another company made FCP X I would probably not pay much attention to it, simply based on the number of bugs alone. But if Apple makes it, I'll take notice because they have a track record of revolution.

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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Chris Harlan
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 2:02:48 am

[T. Payton] "Indeed I should have known better. I re-read my post and realized that it indeed sounded like I said if someone didn't embrace FCP X they were not accepting technology and therefore a Luddite."

Fair enough.

[T. Payton] "I admit my ignorance also. Here in the Western United States "Luddite" is not part of the vocabulary, and I had not heard the term until I read of it recently.
"


In this part of the Western United States--at least at the Universities I've attended and in a number of the technical places I have worked--its a fairly common slur for the technically dismissive or disinclined. It gets a lot more usage than, say, flat-earther or troglodyte. I'm surprised that you haven't come across it before.


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Greg Andonian
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 8:56:29 pm

That article on the Adobe site that this post linked to was interesting.

While I was reading it, I noticed it said that Adobe was co-founded by a guy named John Warnock.

So there REALLY IS a John Adobe! Fascinating... ;)

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Bret Williams
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 8:59:37 pm

In the video, what are those large, bound stacks of paper with the software's title on them? I think I've heard of those. Are those... manuals? Wow. Never seen one in real life. :)


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Chris Harlan
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:00:43 pm

[T. Payton] "Let us not be Luddites."

Pretty condescending stuff, there, dude. Let me offer you another view of what the future of FCX might have to offer:








Just replace "Aguirre" with "Apple Pro Apps Division."


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Franz Bieberkopf
On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 27, 2012 at 10:18:21 pm

It took me a while to find this as I could not remember much about it.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/What-the-Luddites-Really-...

from the article:

The word “Luddite,” handed down from a British industrial protest that began 200 years ago this month, turns up in our daily language in ways that suggest we’re confused not just about technology, but also about who the original Luddites were and what being a modern one actually means.

...

Despite their modern reputation, the original Luddites were neither opposed to technology nor inept at using it.

...

But the Luddites themselves “were totally fine with machines,” says Kevin Binfield, editor of the 2004 collection Writings of the Luddites. They confined their attacks to manufacturers who used machines in what they called “a fraudulent and deceitful manner” to get around standard labor practices. “They just wanted machines that made high-quality goods.”



Franz.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 27, 2012 at 11:42:52 pm

How many people have access to pencil and paper? How many people earn their living as a writer (be it novelist, screen writer, journalist, etc.,)? How many basketballs are sold to people that will never play pro ball? Stores selling musical instruments are all over the place but I really doubt there are any session musicians, let alone major artists, that worry about their jobs because a new Guitar Center opened up or because there are apps that can teach you to play guitar on your mobile device.

There's a lot more to being a successful editor than just having access to an NLE.

Accessibility is great and the only ones that should be worried are people that only have a job because they had a monopoly on gear in their area.

I don't use FCPX because it doesn't meet my needs. There's no fear or anger or denial entering the equation. I need something that does X, Y and Z and FCPX currently does not at this time so therefore I don't use it. If that changes I'll take another look at it.


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Bret Williams
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 1:36:44 am

Sure. But what if just a few years ago basketballs cost $3000 and required special training to dribble, and suddenly they cost $30 and dribble for you.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 3:08:06 am

How many pitchers have been replaced by pitching machines? Has it become harder to find a human drummer since drum machines where invented?. How many trailer editors have been replaced by the paint-by-numbers trailer function in iMovie?

Hell, even in Real Steel (yes, I went there) the robots were still human controlled.


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Bill Davis
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 3:40:13 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't use FCPX because it doesn't meet my needs. There's no fear or anger or denial entering the equation. I need something that does X, Y and Z and FCPX currently does not at this time so therefore I don't use it. If that changes I'll take another look at it."

Andrew,

While I find nothing wrong with that statement at all - I do think we're entering a new era where looking at software exclusively as a "features" or even "workflow" construct might turn out to be vexingly limiting in the long run.

The small problem is that while FCP-X does a subset of X, Y, and Z that currently does not meet your feature set - it's also driven some innovation by a elevating some concepts and strategies from outside the regular XYZ feature set and bolted them directly into it's design.

What concerns me is that more than a few editors will keep focused on the "core skills" of editing - which should never be dismissed or belittled - and miss the fact that in order to truly benefit from the directional change that FCP-X has signaled - there is much new learning that has to be done.

X is not something that can be mastered overnight. Or even over-a few months. It's significantly deep code with a lot of new capabilities and processes that honestly take quite a bit of learning to get used to.

I've spent as much time over the past four months, for example, considering taxonomy (the field of intelligent naming and labeling) and export modes (versioning and persistent connection verses "save as" and "orphan document" creation.) as I have concentrating on the traditional skills of scene pacing or titling. My use of X on a near daily basis has literally changed much of my thinking about what it means to be an "editor" in the modern sense.

Yes, the core is telling the story. But to get that done, I've been given whole new arrays of tools that can help me tremendously if I can learn them. But they're not easy nor trivial to learn.

But it's precisely those new skills that are making me feel like I'm moving forward in my career, rather than continuing just to do the same stuff I did five years (or even six months!) ago.

I now not only edit, but I have a new appreciation for the role of metadata, search, clip relationships, and even in-application publishing of content for a connected world.

I simply don't think my brain would have gone to those places without having X in my toolkit.

I'm also simply not convinced that without getting past the "features" level of the program to honestly learn the overall data flow (both program content and metadata) any editor can fairly figure out if X is something they may be able to benefit from or not.

So I appreciate that at least you're keeping your eye on it.

If it does continue to evolve at it's current pace. At some point, I believe that most editors will likely have to contend with it's concepts. Because merging editing with search, and bolting those onto connected output concepts IS going to be where editing goes in an overall sense, IMO.

It has to in a world where every content creator pretty much has to rely on those same principals (search and agile creative output deployment via on-line publishing) as increasingly key drivers of modern content workflows.

If I'm correct, the other large scale editing programs will simply have to start adding even more of these capabilities to the ones they all ready have in place.

But Apple has now become arguably the first NLE to elevate content management and metadata tracking to completely equal status with fundamental editing tools - putting BOTH right up front in the user interface design.

It will be fascinating to see how many of the other major editing programs adopt that model over the next few years.





These aren't the typical letters that

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Andrew Kimery
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 5:07:41 am

That was a well thought out post Bill, but I think it was based on an inaccurate assumption of why I'm still on the sidelines.

For example, one of my needs is for video out to leave Beta and be as functional as it was in FCP classic. Another one of my needs is for FCPX to be used at places I work, or want to work, at. In LA I've seen more than one job posting that says "Need FCP editor (not FCPX)". Again, I'm not staying away because it's different I'm staying away because it hasn't become practical for me to learn it yet.

There's only so much time in the day and it makes more sense for me to shake off my Avid rust, get more comfy with AE, see how my Color skills translate to DaVinci, etc., than it does to spend time learning FCPX right now. FCPX could be God's gift to editing but if I don't think I can make a living cutting w/it I'm not going to give it any serious consideration regardless of what mind blowing features it might have. I'm an editor not an NLE evangelist, consultant or plugin maker so there's no compelling reason for me to tolerate being a V1 bug hunter. ;)

I agree that we'll probably see FCPX-like features appear in PPro and Avid just like we see features that were first in Avid or PPro in FCPX. If that's the case though than it's probably even less likely that I'll ever pick up FCPX. I mean, if Avid meets my needs today and grows into meeting my needs tomorrow then I'm still looking for motivation to adopt FCPX.


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Marvin Holdman
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 5:20:07 am

Bill Davis - "But Apple has now become arguably the first NLE to elevate content management and metadata tracking to completely equal status with fundamental editing tools - putting BOTH right up front in the user interface design."

Apple is FAR from the first NLE to incorporate content management and metadata tracking and certainly far from the best implementation of it. If you truly think this, perhaps you should get out a bit more. Statements like this really make one question the credibility of the source. The fact that there is no path in or out of their system for their content management and metadata makes working with it limited, at best. If it helps you understand data concepts, great... but I say you'd do a damn site better studying data management just a bit. Same concepts, MUCH more solid understanding of the relationships in the end. FCPX is to data management as a Prius is to Nascar.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Bill Davis
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 4:49:25 pm

[Marvin Holdman] "Apple is FAR from the first NLE to incorporate content management and metadata tracking and certainly far from the best implementation of it. "

OK, I'll bite.

Tell me the name of the other NLEs what have such an editing interface via front end data management database access windows right up front in the editing interface.

I'd like to take a look at them.

I guess you could argue that Legacy had that, but we're not talking about simple search here - we're talking about a visible front end that encourages the editor to constantly work with and revise the metadata of every part of the workflow - positioned such that the editor is encouraged to interact with the data in the same way they interact with the visual content.

Legacy did NOT do that.

If other popular editors did that, I'm unaware of it - but I'm willing to be corrected.

Examples please?

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Marvin Holdman
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 9:37:41 pm

Open up the project window on any modern NLE (FCP, PP, act) and you'll find a wealth of metadata (both generated and user). The important point of this is it can be easily imported, exported and shared with proper MAM tools. MOST folks have been accomplishing the "organization" that you mention from a combination of hierarchal management of footage and using these data tools. The highly limited scope of the organizational tools in FCPX are fine if you are not concerned about having this data available in the broader context of your data management system (ie. don't really care about sharing it with others), but to say it is a "content management and metadata tracking system" implies that it can somehow manage more than a projects worth of information over a long period of time.

To the best of my knowledge, FCPX allows limited usage of "key terms" to group your footage. Yes, it's "front end" data management, but I'd hardly call it a data management "system". It is, at best, an organizational tool, limited too and defined by each project.

Get back to me in a year and tell me how you find a very specific shot of "John Doe's interview regarding the oversimplification of data systems recorded at the Apple Pep Rally in June 2011" using this "content management system". And by that, I mean what query would you submit to FCPX to find it, not how you would remember where it was at. That is what defines a "system" in my book.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Shawn Miller
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 8:28:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "Tell me the name of the other NLEs what have such an editing interface via front end data management database access windows right up front in the editing interface."

Sony Vegas has been doing this since version 6 (I believe). Search, tagging, key wording all built on top of SQL Server 200x and integrated directly in the UI.


I haven't used Vegas regulary for about two years... but those functions were very useful when I was using it heavily.

Shawn



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David Roth Weiss
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 6:09:37 am

[Bill Davis] "But Apple has now become arguably the first NLE to elevate content management and metadata tracking to completely equal status with fundamental editing tools - putting BOTH right up front in the user interface design.
"


The real problem with FCPX is that, as hard as you try Bill, it simply doesn't come close to what you try to make of it. If the software was even close it would be a real win-win; FCPX would be better, and we wouldn't have to read all of your dribble.

So many words - so little meaning. But, I guess your third grade teacher would give you an A for effort?


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Steve Connor
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 8:09:53 am

[David Roth Weiss] "The real problem with FCPX is that, as hard as you try Bill, it simply doesn't come close to what you try to make of it. If the software was even close it would be a real win-win; FCPX would be better, and we wouldn't have to read all of your dribble.

So many words - so little meaning. But, I guess your third grade teacher would give you an A for effort?

"


Ouch!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Bill Davis
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 5:22:58 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "The real problem with FCPX is that, as hard as you try Bill, it simply doesn't come close to what you try to make of it. If the software was even close it would be a real win-win; FCPX would be better, and we wouldn't have to read all of your dribble.

So many words - so little meaning. But, I guess your third grade teacher would give you an A for effort?"


As always I'm going to try to ignore Mr. Weiss's personal attacks and see if there's some actual meaning inside this.

Nope. It's vague speculation and innuendo. "doesn't even come close" is opinion unsupported by any factual content or examples. Likewise the unsupported opinion re-statement in line 2.

The "dribble" comment is self evident personal hostility. Fine.

At some point, Mr. Weiss will stop focusing on ME and focus on providing examples of why he feels my opinions are wrong. But we'll obviously have to wait longer.

While we do. I'll make a simple argument. If X's construct "doesn't come close" to what I'm making of it - then why are so many professionals still trying to come to grips with it?

Mr Weiss himself, seems to have an almost atavistic need to trash it and any supporter of it at every turn.

If it's so trivial and flawed, and meaningless, why?

This forums popularity and Mr Weiss's own on-going obsession with trashing the software at every turn is, in itself, de-facto proof that it's deep, interesting, and yep, even revolutionary.

If it wasn't, nobody would keep coming here passionately arguing about it.

It's curious to me that there are still many here who continue to let themselves feel "personally wounded" that Apple discontinued a product where they had expertise. I suppose they've lost some feeling of being "valuable" by virtue of losing skills they had built on the old platform that had largely come to defined them. And while they're wrapped up in that pain, all they can do is trash talk the new player relentlessly, yearning for a return to the old game they loved.

But alas, the old game is over.

There are plenty of new ones from, AVID, Adobe, Sony, and others. My advice, sir, is to move along to one of them. Revisiting this pain is not productive for you or for us.

This is a world of constantly evolving games. Getting stuck in an old one is a dead end. In my 20s when I was an on-air talent in radio, I could have forever defined myself as a guy content in a room full of LP's and record players working to build an audience., and missed the changes that eventually put everyone out jogging with their iPods and little need for someone to pick their music for them.

I had to move on and release the skills I'd picked up as a DJ so I could play another game.

I did. Into TV, and Advertising, and eventually video production full time.

I don't know if X is the future for anyone. I just know it's more interesting to me than the past. Because it contains a raft of useful new thinking that's stretching me.

But it's not about me, or you. It's about letting everyone choose for themselves after listening to the debate.

And I will keep adding my voice to it, whether or not you agree.

Take care.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 5:46:40 pm

[Bill Davis] " I'll make a simple argument. If X's construct "doesn't come close" to what I'm making of it - then why are so many professionals still trying to come to grips with it?"

Because it was released by Apple to replace the most popular NLE in existance. If either :

A) It was released by another company

or

B) Apple hadn't EOL'd Legacy but called the new ap Icut or something else.

then

C) This forum would not exist. There would be a basic Icut forum where users would be trying to figure it out and if Apple's name wasn't attached to it my guess is that it wouldn't be a very busy forum.

The traffic on this forum is in no way a proof of any intrinsic merit to X, merely to the dominance of Legacy in the NLE market.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 10:06:22 am

[Herb Sevush] "The traffic on this forum is in no way a proof of any intrinsic merit to X, merely to the dominance of Legacy in the NLE market."

If that's true Herb, then we should have seen all the traffic here migrate to the Premier and Vegas, and AVID boards.

Legacy EOL has been a fact for the best part of a year. Plenty of time for people to have left it for another program.

There's absolutely no reason for them to come here to discuss X if it's such a dog.

People who hang here are a lot of things, but stupid isn't typically one of them.

And you're implying that they are so dumb that they want to hang around and discuss "dead" software or simply re-live the great X mistake - rather than getting along with their lives and their new choices.

Sorry, but that view is pure BS.

If you look back carefully on the posts here. it's about half a dozen folks who keep trashing it. And about the same number of us who regularly praise it. We're not getting legions of new commenters. NOR are we loosing much steam.

I'd argue that the health of this board is ABSOLUTE proof of the "intrinsic" merit of X. It's sparked and generated the largest on-going on-line debate of NLE design, structure and use that any of us have ever seen. Some of us argue. Most just watch.

And quietly, X keeps gaining new users every day according to the sales stats.

Another rev or two (if they are as useful as the last ones) and the program continues to grow in functions and stability - and then we have a whole new game.

And consider this, as important new hardware and OS improvements are released in the Apple world - the FCP-X development team - being on the INSIDE after all, will be able to take advantage of those before the software teams from other vendors.

So unless you want to make a bet that Windows 8 (the other teams future bet) will debut with a version of Premier or Vegas or AVID that meets all your pro needs - it might be smart to keep an eye on the team that's recently significantly "future proofed" their NLE approach with all that shiny new code.

If five years from now, we're all on smaller, tablet based OS devices, I'm willing to bet that Apple has better touch screen video editing than Redmond.

But these are just guesses - nobody I know has an actual functioning crystal ball.

But it will be fun to watch it all unfold.

Maybe I'll see you at NAB.

If so I'll buy the first round.

Peace.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 3:48:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "If that's true Herb, then we should have seen all the traffic here migrate to the Premier and Vegas, and AVID boards. "
Go check out the PPro board and you'll find a bunch of the names that used to pop up here last spring.

[Bill Davis] "Legacy EOL has been a fact for the best part of a year. Plenty of time for people to have left it for another program. "
Actually, it's not. I want to change, but I'm still committed to Legacy for now. I was hoping to be able to switch before June, when we start our next season, but that's dependent on what happens in April. It's possible, though I am loath to admit it, that I will still be on Legacy for another year. I don't think I'm that rare a case.

[Bill Davis] "People who hang here are a lot of things, but stupid isn't typically one of them."
No, it's precisely because the people who come here aren't stupid that I like to come here. As you may have noticed from various threads some people want to rename this forum to something more general that reflects that very large net of concerns under discussion. As time goes on, X itself seems to me to be a smaller part of the ongoing dialogue.

[Bill Davis] "If you look back carefully on the posts here. it's about half a dozen folks who keep trashing it. And about the same number of us who regularly praise it. We're not getting legions of new commenters. NOR are we loosing much steam."
This is true of the last 6 months or so, but we have lost a lot of the original posters. Check out the all the names that were here last summer - where have they gone?

[Bill Davis] "I'd argue that the health of this board is ABSOLUTE proof of the "intrinsic" merit of X. It's sparked and generated the largest on-going on-line debate of NLE design, structure and use that any of us have ever seen."
You'd argue and I'd disagree. I'd argue that if this product was released by Boris or Grass Valley you'd never have heard of it, much less used it. I'd further argue that if Apple had released this product concurrent with ongoing support of Legacy this "debate" forum would be unnecessary. This forum is testament to the power of Apple and the dominance of FCP. The Techniques forum is proof of the merit of X, and that forum is quite busy indeed.

[Bill Davis] "as important new hardware and OS improvements are released in the Apple world - the FCP-X development team - being on the INSIDE after all, will be able to take advantage of those before the software teams from other vendors."
Now there's a laugh if ever I heard one. That was the concept that made me buy Legacy in the first place, and we can see how well that paid off. Walter, Craig and Jeremy are going on and on about how the OS team and the Pro Aps people never even talk to one another and your claiming that relationship is an advantage for Apple? It's like the last year never happened. If this past year is what it's like to be on the inside, I shall endeavor to stay as far outside as I can henceforth.

[Bill Davis] "If five years from now, we're all on smaller, tablet based OS devices, I'm willing to bet that Apple has better touch screen video editing than Redmond."
My best guess is that in 5 years I will be editing on Linux boxes and saying a pox on both their houses.

[Bill Davis] "Maybe I'll see you at NAB. If so I'll buy the first round."
Wish I could make it but it's not to be this year. You'll have to drink for the both of us.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 4:43:37 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "If that's true Herb, then we should have seen all the traffic here migrate to the Premier and Vegas, and AVID boards. "
Go check out the PPro board and you'll find a bunch of the names that used to pop up here last spring.
"


And, the Octo-mom gets more attention then most other mothers. Can you infer from that, that she has a superior method for raising children?

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "Legacy EOL has been a fact for the best part of a year. Plenty of time for people to have left it for another program. "
Actually, it's not. I want to change, but I'm still committed to Legacy for now. I was hoping to be able to switch before June, when we start our next season, but that's dependent on what happens in April. It's possible, though I am loath to admit it, that I will still be on Legacy for another year. I don't think I'm that rare a case.
"


Not at all. I'm in a similar boat with much of my work. And, that has to do with several factors beyond my immediate control. Many people I know are in the same place, as well.


[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "I'd argue that the health of this board is ABSOLUTE proof of the "intrinsic" merit of X. It's sparked and generated the largest on-going on-line debate of NLE design, structure and use that any of us have ever seen."
You'd argue and I'd disagree. I'd argue that if this product was released by Boris or Grass Valley you'd never have heard of it, much less used it. I'd further argue that if Apple had released this product concurrent with ongoing support of Legacy this "debate" forum would be unnecessary. This forum is testament to the power of Apple and the dominance of FCP. The Techniques forum is proof of the merit of X, and that forum is quite busy indeed."


Again, Octo-mom. Is she the mother of all moms, or what?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 4:52:01 pm

The Octo-mom...Wow.

The mother of analogies.


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Chris Harlan
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 4:57:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The Octo-mom...Wow.

The mother of analogies.
"


Hey, I was just askin'!


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David Roth Weiss
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 2:34:32 pm

[Bill Davis] "As always I'm going to try to ignore Mr. Weiss's personal attacks and see if there's some actual meaning inside this."

[Bill Davis] "The "dribble" comment is self evident personal hostility. Fine."

[Bill Davis] "At some point, Mr. Weiss will stop focusing on ME and focus on providing examples of why he feels my opinions are wrong. But we'll obviously have to wait longer."

Sorry, but there's really nothing personal about it. And, it has nothing to do with our difference of opinion. It's your writing dude. Stop all the atrocious over-convincing, please, and I'll stop responding to it. Sorry Bill, but there are just way too many "notes".







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Chris Harlan
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 6:14:34 pm

So now Bill is the Mozart of posting?


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Bill Davis
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 10:10:00 pm

Nope Chris,

I'm supposed to be the Saleari (sp) of posting. The untalented hack that can't grasp that he simply lacks Mozart's talent yet THINKS he does.

It does beg the question, I suppose who gets the Mozart role here.

I doubt DRW thinks it's him.

So whom?

Walter, perhaps?

I hesitate to nominate Randy Ubillos - but in truth, as the lead designer of more than one of the most successful NLES on the planet, he's probably the closest we've got.

Then again, he still has his active finger prints all over X, so I suspect that no matter how smart, experienced or capable he might be - the priesthood of the Great Church of Traditional Editing (at least via it's priesthood represented here) has branded him a heretic so no statues are to be allowed during his lifetime.

Faith is such a cruel mistress.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 10:41:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm supposed to be the Saleari (sp) of posting. The untalented hack that can't grasp that he simply lacks Mozart's talent yet THINKS he does."

No, Salieri knew he was a hack and hated both Mozart and God because of it; envied Mozart for the talent he wished he had, hated God for giving him just enough talent to appreciate what a hack he was.

Great movie, by the way.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Marvin Holdman
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 30, 2012 at 7:22:37 pm

Bill Davis - "I hesitate to nominate Randy Ubillos - but in truth, as the lead designer of more than one of the most successful NLES on the planet, he's probably the closest we've got."

Bwahahahahahahaha! That's the funniest thing I've read in quite some time, but not for the reason's you think. It would appear from his product that perhaps he does have Mozart's hubris, but from the dissonance created, I'd say Mr. Randy is quite tone deaf.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
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Walter Soyka
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 4:59:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "I do think we're entering a new era where looking at software exclusively as a "features" or even "workflow" construct might turn out to be vexingly limiting in the long run."

With apologies to Henry Russell Sanders and Vince Lombardi, workflow isn't everything -- it's the only thing.

There is no delivery without a workflow to create the deliverable.


[Bill Davis] "But it's precisely those new skills that are making me feel like I'm moving forward in my career, rather than continuing just to do the same stuff I did five years (or even six months!) ago. I now not only edit, but I have a new appreciation for the role of metadata, search, clip relationships, and even in-application publishing of content for a connected world."

Maybe I just don't get it, but aren't you still editing and delivering video?

Unless FCPX develops some sort of metadata portability, will it ever be more than this?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 9:32:54 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Unless FCPX develops some sort of metadata portability, will it ever be more than this?"

I've been laying low in these forums lately, but I see it, thusly.

Those who are using FCPX, and generally like it, they can "see" the potentials of it. I'm with Bill. The Event side of the program is awesome. I've talked about it before, so no reason to again, but it really performs functions (in a good way) that no other NLE can do in the way the FCPX performs. CatDV can do much more than FCPX, but there are certain things that only FCPX can do. Is the metadata portable yet? No. But then again, there's a lot of metadata in NLEs that is an after thought. FCP Legacy was Ok at it, and definitely had some capability but few used it as it wasn't very straightforward, and it didn't allow user control manipulation as FCPX does. So, if Apple keeps developing this idea in a way that seems logical from what is evident the program today, then it certainly will make work different in the post industry for those people that choose to use it. Not to mention, the FCPXML structure doesn't allow for much metadata yet, so therefore, you can't use it. But if you look at how FCPX will be able to harness metadata that comes in to the program, it seems like there's a bunch of potential there (just check out the metadata browser).

There are those who have used FCPX, don't like it or it doesn't fit their workflow, and can only see it for what it is today in the here and now. That's fine, as it is much easier to talk about/bash something for it's capabilities today than what it might do tomorrow depending on Apple's motivation and recent history. So, I'm with you Walter.

So, yes, you are all right. FCPX is simultaneously kludgedly amazing, and not working.

Jeremy


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 9:39:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " The Event side of the program is awesome."

OK, so here's the bit I don't get. How is the Event organization in FCPX anything other than a tiny, trivial, non-significant advance on the Event organization in iMovie - which has been around for years (i.e since '09)?

And that's a serious question.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 9:55:21 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "OK, so here's the bit I don't get. How is the Event organization in FCPX anything other than a tiny, trivial, non-significant advance on the Event organization in iMovie - which has been around for years (i.e since '09)?

And that's a serious question."


I have not used iMovie so I can't tell you, I also don't have iMovie. How much have you used iMovie and how much have you used metadata in FCPX? Serious question. How are they similar other than the fact that they have something called an Event and something called a Project?

Does it have keywords? Does it have Scene/Take/Reel of which you can generate clip names in iMovie?

Does it have the custom metadata fields that you can then rename all of your clips in iMovie?

Can you select a range of a clip, and add that to a collection?

Does it have the metadata viewer in the inspector?

Does it have a search window?

Is there a timeline index?

Those are serious questions, too.

I am not talking about how the Events look on the screen (akin to bins or whatever). I am not talking about that there's an "Event Browser" and a "Project Browser" or whatever iMovie and FCPX nomenclature is shared. I'm talking about the actual user supplied (or camera supplied) data that can be used in FCPX, and sorted in the Event side of the interface, and how that information can be used and manipulated, and if you want to have some of it transfer to the Project. If iMovie has all of this, then there's no difference, but I don't have any experience with it besides that it looks generally sort if similar to FCPX in certain ways, but not many from I can see on screen grabs. A gut reaction would say that they aren't similar at all but in appearance, just like FCP7, Avid, and PPro have similar layouts, but they are different in many ways once you start to actually use them.

Jeremy


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 10:03:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have not used iMovie so I can't tell you"

iMovie has favouriting, filtering and keywording (based on automatically detecting content) which are essentially indistinguishable from their FCPX counterparts. The step up to FCPX strikes me as being trivial.

That's all.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 10:06:56 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "iMovie has favouriting, filtering and keywording (based on automatically detecting content)"

So that's it? You can say "this is my favorite" or can you say "Simon, good take" on a range? Then search for all "good takes" or make a smart collection on "good take"?

Or are you saying that this is all automagically generated?

And does it have the metadata viewer with which to rename your clips?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 10:18:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " You can say "this is my favorite" or can you say "Simon, good take" on a range? Then search for all "good takes" or make a smart collection on "good take"?"

Hard to explain if you haven't actually looked at the app, but yes - the favouriting is identical to FCPX. That's identical, as in "identical".

My point is that going from favouriting to "smart collections" and the rest is truly trivial and non-significant and hence the "amazing originality" of FCPX is really a bit of a chimera that is distracting us from how pitifully slowly and unsatisfactorily Apple are moving forward with this "exciting new tech".

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 10:30:01 pm

show me a screen grab?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 10:34:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "show me a screen grab?"



Gives you the overall idea ...

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 11:12:47 pm

Ok.

Doesn't look like FCPX to me, but it's just a screen grab.

We've talked about this before where iMovie has been the "proof of concept" but FCPX is the maturation of imovie's concepts.

It's taken a long time because FCPX is new code and not exactly the same.

We can argue about it until the cow's put down their keyboards.

What Bill says is right, what Walter asks is right.

If one doesn't like it, other NLE companies have filled the gaps nicely and will continue to do so.

FCPX does work differently on the event side than anything out there. No, not all of it is available to the outside world, and who knows if it ever will be. Those that think it will, will continue, those that don't will move on, an the rest will stick with 7 until they physically can't.

It's a mad world, but life goes on.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 11:00:09 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Doesn't look like FCPX to me, but it's just a screen grab. "


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aXm8w0JnEeI/TLhw8Jv3_yI/AAAAAAAABxQ/PPd3E0EJ1Yk/s...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 29, 2012 at 11:46:23 pm

:?)

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Walter Soyka
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 10:20:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Those who are using FCPX, and generally like it, they can "see" the potentials of it... There are those who have used FCPX, don't like it or it doesn't fit their workflow, and can only see it for what it is today in the here and now. So, yes, you are all right. FCPX is simultaneously kludgedly amazing, and not working."

Jeremy, I agree wholeheartedly. This is a great summary of much of the debate here.

I've said before that I see tons of potential with FCPX -- but right now, that potential is pretty much all I see. Apple broke trust when threw away something that did work reasonably well and replaced it with something that might work amazingly well, someday.

I don't disagree with Bill D. about what FCPX could be. I'm just not sure that's what it will be.

I do agree with Simon U. that all the updates we've seen so far could well have originally been slated for launch, which would mean that all the rapid development we've discussed could also be delayed development.

I'm not writing FCPX or Apple off entirely, but I need to see more before I'll believe like I used to.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 30, 2012 at 5:32:17 am

[Walter Soyka] "Unless FCPX develops some sort of metadata portability, will it ever be more than this?
"


I think so.

The dreaded analogy is the iPod story. Apple (and/or Jobs) didn't invent the personal portable player, the digital cataloging idea, or the hard disk tech that enabled it.

He just combined all of those existing technologies into a comprehensive, easy to approach whole - simultaneously taking the "friction" out of obtaining the music the public wanted at terms they preferred - and in doing so, changed everything.

I think X is on a similar path. Increasingly, people want to edit visual content for themselves. Faced with that, the older creation tools were largely over designed and too complex for all the but top level specialists.

X won't make everyone an editor. (neither will iMovie or a video editing app that Windows 8 might provide.) Editing is simply too time consuming and complex for all but the dedicated and those who need to make video to try to drive financial results in some fashion. But it will make it possible for more people to edit at more levels then in the past.

And that will be an overall boon to society - but will come at a price to both specialists and to the general audience who will have to learn to better "filter" out the core of the flood of public messages that can increasingly be built with more sophistication by more editors - including content that can be mis-leading or down right fraudulent.

Things are changing. X is just a part of that. I feel it will become a serious contender, precisely because the foundational thinking behind it matches very closely what a modern mass business audience wants a smart business visual communications editing app to be.

We'll see.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: On Luddites and the Use of Machines: Apropos of FCPX
on Mar 28, 2012 at 5:22:22 pm

[Bill Davis] "I've spent as much time over the past four months, for example, considering taxonomy (the field of intelligent naming and labeling) and export modes (versioning and persistent connection verses "save as" and "orphan document" creation.) as I have concentrating on the traditional skills of scene pacing or titling. My use of X on a near daily basis has literally changed much of my thinking about what it means to be an "editor" in the modern sense. "

It's nice to see you've gotten religion over the importance of naming and labeling Bill, but this stuff has been at the center of proper editing workflows since before there was such a term. When it was all film clips in bins the naming and labeling was kept in a notebook, but it was still the only way to deal with the retrieval and identification of 100,000 feat of film. From hand written notebooks to flat file databases to the kind of work you can do today with CatDV and FCPX, the essential nature of preliminary organization in any editorial process cannot be overstated.

It's nice that your experience with X has impressed this on you, but since you can't export any of this information outside of X, it seems, to an outsider like me, rather limited compared to something like CatDV where you can create a browsing library linking your metadata and files for all the world to see and use.

But that's just a Ludite's point of view.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Mortner
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 8:21:03 am

[T. Payton] "Fast forward to today, and an App that accomplish about 90% of what Illustrator can do can (today's Illustrator that is) can be purchased on the iPad for a mere $4.99."

Which app is this then ? Im intrigued. Also, the last 10% tends to mean angry clients and 3 am deadlines...


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T. Payton
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 2:32:48 pm

[James Mortner] "Which app is this then ? Im intrigued. Also, the last 10% tends to mean angry clients and 3 am deadlines..."

There are a bunch of good consumer vector apps for the iPad. Here is one (this looks pretty nice, even has a Mac version for a mere $25:

http://www.indeeo.com/idraw/

My son has the app InkPad. But here is a list of some others:

http://appadvice.com/appguides/show/vector-drawing

By the way my point is not that a $4.99 is an Illustrator replacement--far be it. But these inexpensive vector apps for the iPad represent a shift in creation in our culture. What was once a type of tool that only Graphic Professionals would use has now become something that practically anyone can use and afford.

------
T. Payton
OneCreative, Albuquerque


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James Mortner
Re: Illustrator turns 25 today. Thoughts on it, Luddites and FCP X
on Mar 28, 2012 at 2:45:48 pm

Cool, shall go and check those out !

And yes, I agree with your point about availability. I was being a bit pedantic about the 90% part i suppose !


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