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Aindreas Gallagher
on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 3:20:02 pm

the difference between Adobe and Apple as companies, reacting to professional users needs, is surreally stark at this point.

The fact that the product manager for the application just popped into this forum to highlight that they are aware of and are working to address the problem 72 hours after it was raised in a single blog post is a little mindbending.

I invoke flabbergasted Picard.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aXm8w0JnEeI/TLhw8Jv3_yI/AAAAAAAABxQ/PPd3E0EJ1Yk/s...


I'm genuinely rooting for PPro6 at this point.

I think if it feels like Premiere is about .5 to one full release away from the real deal, the world and its aunt is going to jump onboard shaking it out and implementing it while riding out FCP7 in the interim.

As in to say, given the exemplary way adobe generally handle the customer base, if they more or less land this release, and it becomes quite easy to envision a really very good premiere in 12 months or so, with Adobe's dependable reinforcement going forward from there, then everywhere that was FCP instead of Avid, will become Premiere instead of Avid.

One ginormous ad and marketing agency in London has intimated that at the end of the transition period, they expect to be Premiere. They're not ruling out Avid, but Premiere has tremendous price attractiveness and they get to keep nearly all their existing hardware. They have quite a lot of seats. Also the Beeb has pretty much bet on Premiere. They have existing Avid for the serious stuff, but anything new is Premiere. I got that from a D.I.T who works for nature.

Do it Adobe, land this baby.
realistically, it's the closest anyone is going to get to FCP8.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 3:42:23 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "the difference between Adobe and Apple as companies, reacting to professional users needs, is surreally stark at this point."

It's great but it's not a big change, this is how Adobe have worked for the last few years, I remember them taking part in discussions years ago with Premier 5.0!

Apple's silence is no change, this is what they have always done.

It's just that some more of you are paying attention now!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 4:03:30 pm

I'll say. the context is very different now.

the thing I find interesting about this is that Adobe did all the very important things in Photoshop a while ago now, same for Illustrator, same for AE.
Argue you all you want about a touch of mission drift in PS (although 6 looks right on the money) but I will defend AE until the day I die. If you compare AE CS5
to say AE 5.5 - first release with camera, last release with floating tabs, the refinement and strengthening of that App is astonishing - literally every last square inch of the thing has been honed to within an inch of its life. Razor clean chrome, brilliant keyframing, industrial strength effects, its just an absolutely cracking piece of software.

Now I never paid an iota of attention to premiere for the last five years, but realistically, its underpinnings are in great shape. the architecture is very clean, very modern, and very powerful. And then there is simply a lot for Adobe to do and iterate here. But Adobe really know how to do that. And they have a real goal now - eating everything that isn't Avid, which depending on what way you measure the universe, is about a fifty percent market share up for grabs.
Adobe know how to make great video software, and if their ear was any closer to the ground, they would be an Indian scout.

Like I say - I'm rooting for Premiere.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Alan Okey
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 6:41:32 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I will defend AE until the day I die. If you compare AE CS5
to say AE 5.5 - first release with camera, last release with floating tabs, the refinement and strengthening of that App is astonishing - literally every last square inch of the thing has been honed to within an inch of its life. Razor clean chrome, brilliant keyframing, industrial strength effects, its just an absolutely cracking piece of software."


AE is good, but probably its main advantage is its ubiquity. In my opinion, AE still has a ways to go to catch up to the late Autodesk Combustion, at least in terms of its utility as a compositor. I find AE's UI needlessly cluttered. Combustion's UI was far more elegant and task-aware. Combustion's schematic view was actually usable like a node tree, whereas AE's is simply informational. And I can't fathom why there's still no per-vertex mask feathering in AE without a paid third-party plugin.

But I'll grant you that Adobe supports AE very well, and continues to improve it in each release. And on the plus side, at least Adobe hasn't demonstrated the perverse propensity to heartlessly and arbitrarily kill its own children like Discreet/Autodesk, or even Apple - at least not in regard to its video apps.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 8:20:32 pm

[Alan Okey] " And I can't fathom why there's still no per-vertex mask feathering in AE without a paid third-party plugin."

Absolutely!!!!!!!!!

One of the reasons (and there are several others) which it's nonsense to talk about AE as a grown-up compositor. This is a really key function - can't believe they still haven't got round to it.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 8:40:14 pm

[Alan Okey] " And I can't fathom why there's still no per-vertex mask feathering in AE without a paid third-party plugin."

[Simon Ubsdell] "Absolutely!!!!!!!!! One of the reasons (and there are several others) which it's nonsense to talk about AE as a grown-up compositor. This is a really key function - can't believe they still haven't got round to it."

It's a common feature request. From Todd Kopriva's blog entry top After Effects feature requests for the past year or so [link]:
variable-width mask feather: We definitely hear you on this one. You can use variable-width feathering for masks brought in through mocha shape, and you can also use the reasonably priced PV Feather plug-in… but those methods aren’t as convenient as just having variable-width mask feathering built in. Feel free to submit more feature requests to let us know how much you want this. But we already know that it’s important.


You can file a feature request or bug report with Adobe here [link].

That said, I spend an inordinate amount of time in AE, but even I personally think of After Effects in terms of motion graphics before I think of it in terms of pure compositing.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 9:08:33 pm

[Walter Soyka] "That said, I spend an inordinate amount of time in AE, but even I personally think of After Effects in terms of motion graphics before I think of it in terms of pure compositing."

I'd never waste time compositing in AE - nodal compositing is the only sensible way to go. AE just isn't buit for it, but you keep hearing that it is and a lot of people try (with frequently indifferent results), hence my observation.

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 9:34:14 pm

me motion graphics grading editor guy, doing *a bit* of compositing = me likee AE very very much.

It surely isn't a functioning nodal compositor, and I know enough smoke guys (like dan!) who would simply state that a functioning compositor is a nodal compositor - by definition.

At its heart AE is an incredibly hulked out photoshop with a timeline bolted onto the layers, but for a lot of people, that is a highly desirable thing.

For its sweet spot, AE is a mad hotrod. Just think of how many multi thousand dollar plugin packages that were absorbed into that thing - all of Maffits stuff, CC, grain surgery, keylight, colour finesse - in that sense alone there is a Viking hoard in there...


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Robert Brown
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:43:32 am

Yeah and when you watch Andrew Kramer vids and how much you can do with all of those bundles plugins when you know what you're doing it's pretty f'ing impressive. I did a few pretty serious comps this last year and found myself using Nuke and AE as they both shine in areas where the other doesn't. But if I could only have one program it would certainly be AE.

But yeah the mask feathering thing and also the ability to rotate and scale a mask like in Nuke would be awesome and really should be there.

Also I know a lot of people who've never touched Mocha. That program nails impossible tracks and is yet another freebie in the set. Blows the doors off Nuke's planar tracker.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:08:46 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It surely isn't a functioning nodal compositor, and I know enough smoke guys (like dan!) who would simply state that a functioning compositor is a nodal compositor - by definition."

(As Dan would probably agree!), just as "if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics", so if you think you can composite in AE then you don't know compositing.

Compositing isn't about how many third party processes you can lay your hands on, it's about how many processes you can quickly and easily build yourself.

Again, it's like the difference between people who think keying is all about finding the ideal third party solution, whereas people who really know about keying understand it's about building processes of which a third party keyer might only be a small part (or no part at all!).

I'd say that the biggest issue with AE is how clunky its design is in terms of building those compositing processes. Yes, you can build some amazing mograph processes as Andrew Kramer shows so brilliantly, but that's something distinctly different.

I'd even go so far as to say that the much-maligned Motion has a much better architecture for compositing than AE - the "group" concept of layers gives you power that's very cumbersome to replicate in AE.

Without a doubt, AE is untouchable as the king of mograph - it's just not a real compositing tool. Yes, you can use it for compositing but then I can composite pretty well in iMovie (I mean the real one) if necessary ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Robert Brown
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 3:09:57 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "so if you think you can composite in AE then you don't know compositing."

Uh tell that to Mark Christiansen I think he did a lot of "The Day After" in AE and numerous other things. I don't think that's a fair statement at all. AE is a tool that does many many things with excellent results. If it comes up short use another tool.

And Motion is better for compositing than AE? Really? Motion to me is one of the most frustrating and poorly designed programs I've ever used.

I mean what is "compositing"? Basically somebody gives you a shot to do and it's up to you to figure out which tool is the most efficient one to do it with, or maybe it's many tools. Cumbersome for one person makes total sense for someone else.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:26:31 pm

of course, I'm totally agreeing with you here - me is the mograph-ish guy.

I wouldn't know real compositing from a hole in the ground - when I quoted Dan, its on a topic I take his word on!

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Scott Thomas
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 5:49:38 am

[Alan Okey] "AE is good, but probably its main advantage is its ubiquity. In my opinion, AE still has a ways to go to catch up to the late Autodesk Combustion, at least in terms of its utility as a compositor."

I owned and worked with a couple of different versions of Combustion. I thought the Keying and Color Correction were great, but man was it ever flakey.

I also seem to recall issues with the ever-fun non-integer frame rates. I think 23.98 or 23.976 was in question. (The recent Premiere Pro bug issue reminded me of that)

A node based compositor from Adobe or Apple has been an oft talked about holy grail. There were talks that a Softimage DS like Final Cut Studio was in-the-works. The rumor mill called it "Final Cut Extreme". Then there was the rumor of a "Gentleman's Agreement". All hopes have since been dashed.


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Alan Okey
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 4:13:37 pm

[Scott Thomas] "I owned and worked with a couple of different versions of Combustion. I thought the Keying and Color Correction were great, but man was it ever flakey."

Out of curiosity, were you running the Mac or Windows version? I've heard many say that the Mac version was never quite as stable or as fast as the Windows version. Windows users also got Backburner, which Mac users never got.


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Jason J Rodriguez
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 7:16:31 pm

[Scott Thomas] "A node based compositor from ... Apple has been an oft talked about holy grail."

Yes, it was called Shake

It was created by a company called Nothing Real, and then Apple bought Nothing Real, dropped the price by 10x so anyone could afford it, and then mercilessly killed the product. How amazingly productive.

IMHO Apple is not interested in Pro's ... at least not when they don't need us anymore.

Jason Rodriguez
Virginia Beach, VA


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Scott Thomas
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 28, 2012 at 2:54:21 am

[Jason J Rodriguez] "Yes, it was called Shake

It was created by a company called Nothing Real, and then Apple bought Nothing Real, dropped the price by 10x so anyone could afford it, and then mercilessly killed the product. How amazingly productive.


I'm aware of what Shake is, and that wasn't the only compositing app that Apple bought. There was also Silicon Grail's Chalice and RAYZ.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I was talking of a node-based compositor and *editor* like Softimage DS or Autodesk Smoke or Flame.

My feeling is that the retraction of the Final Cut Studio from the market and the introduction of Smoke on the Mac are not coincidental, but I don't have any facts to back that up, but I do think it's interesting.

Apple isn't the only company that buys products and disappears them. How about Puffin Designs Commotion? Matador? Altamira Composer?


IMHO Apple is not interested in Pro's ... at least not when they don't need us anymore."

Sadly, that may be true, but I look up to the TV and see an ad for the new iPad, and at least don't worry about Apple's future anymore.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 4:24:21 pm

[Steve Connor] "Apple's silence is no change, this is what they have always done.
"


You didn't know Ralph Fairweather, apparently.


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Steve Connor
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 4:30:42 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "You didn't know Ralph Fairweather, apparently.
"


No, he was before my FCP time, just Googled him though, he sounds like a great guy, Apple could do with someone like him at the moment!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 4:44:48 pm

Ralph was great


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Mitch Ives
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 4:50:47 pm

+1 on that... it was a big loss when he passed...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Kevin Monahan
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 5:52:46 pm

I miss my old buddy, Ralph. We were pretty tight. Ralph's role at Apple was a breath of fresh air at the time.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Lance Bachelder
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 6:35:34 pm

Well I'm glad Adobe is paying attention and seizing this moment that has been handed to the NLE industry on a silver platter by Apple. All I ever wanted from PPro was stability, and checking out the Conan video and getting a peek at CS6 things are looking up indeed. I love the slider for the thumbnails a la Bridge in the bins - huge for me since Avid has been the only one to get thumbnails right up to this point.

Looking forward to NAB...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Greg Andonian
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 7:48:53 pm

"The fact that the product manager for the application just popped into this forum to highlight that they are aware of and are working to address the problem 72 hours after it was raised in a single blog post is a little mindbending."

That IS pretty impressive, isn't it? The way this whole thing unfolded reminded me a lot of the Conan video. John Adobe himself just paid us a visit... :)

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Oliver Peters
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 10:21:12 pm

Many of us dislike how Apple publicly operates; however, don't assume that they don't have private meetings with key customers to get input and their reaction on upcoming features. These tend be handled with a Mission Impossible level of deniability, but they do happen. Not as public as Adobe, which is also more active with public betas, but still there.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Greg Andonian
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 11:24:48 pm

"Don't assume that they don't have private meetings with key customers to get input and their reaction on upcoming features. These tend be handled with a Mission Impossible level of deniability, but they do happen."

The fact that Apple DID talk to FCP users during the development of X makes it a lot harder for me to forgive them for the train wreck of last year. That means there was a lot of good input on things that could be added or improved in Final Cut that all got tossed aside because Apple wanted to do things THEIR way.

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Oliver Peters
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 11:39:04 pm

I think that's only partially true. I get the feeling Apple folks tend to live in a bubble. It's that reality distortion field thing.I think they do take and absorb input, but they also have these meetings to gather feedback and reactions on directions already taken. Sometimes it seems like they are genuinely shocked when the pro community doesn't embrace these ideas with open arms. Then they either ignore the pro users or take the reactions to heart and tweak the direction in the future.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 11:46:16 pm

yes,

but we now know that meetings very much like you describe took place with say - oscar winning FCP based editors pre-FCPX launch, apple actually presented to some of them, and that Jordan and many other primary beta testers sent Apple sheaf pages of feedback (jordan's words) on mission critical failures like ganging clips, eyelines matching via source, closed island then, radical simplistic departure etc - I'm not saying those features are the be all and end all, but it is notable that jordan and others - including the oscar guy - (failed to google find his interview, it might have been on variety or something - in the interview he referenced his three view setup of source, selects, and monitor, said apple were very nice tho?) - the point is that all of their feedback came to near naught.

Apple just went off and did exactly what they felt like. Critical feedback came to absolutely nothing. For a creative livelihood industry mainstay.

Apple may have been having deep throat conversations with lots of people: but in the end, they just decided to release this thing FCPX.

And this thing FCPX, in terms of getting paid cash to walk in and edit on it, is a goldfish in the sahara.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net


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Alan Okey
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 12:09:39 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Apple just went off and did exactly what they felt like. Critical feedback came to absolutely nothing. For a creative livelihood industry mainstay."

To play devil's advocate, look at it from Apple's point of view. If their intention was to create an entirely new paradigm for editing that dispensed with all of the legacy baggage of past NLEs, and they wanted to redefine the future of editing software, why should they have cared what the old dogs thought? They were more interested in starting from a blank slate, not in catering to old habits and traditions just for the sake of making things more comfortable for some stodgy old pros who work in the isolated bubble of a tiny niche market.

I'm not implying that I agree with that philosophy, but Apple's apparent disregard for "pro" feedback does make sense from a certain perspective.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 12:29:53 am

Mate: Apple went so crazily far with their zero day editing policy that their motivations almost don't matter at this point.

[Alan Okey] "why should they have cared what the old dogs thought? They were more interested in starting from a blank slate, not in catering to old habits and traditions just for the sake of making things more comfortable for some stodgy old pros who work in the isolated bubble of a tiny niche market."

the old dogs, if we're going to start saying stuff like that, were, and say are, on avid. They're eating cake right now.

We were Apple's dogs, I for one was their dog; younger mixed mongrels coming into editing from the turn of the century who grew deeply attached to a truly open, professional blank slate: a non modal editing environment that could handle all media and sit on open hardware. And it was bloody easy to learn.
given the ridiculous contortions involved in Ubillos's reduced use case methodolgy in FCPX, I find the notion that FCP was failing through complexity or outmoded conceits pretty hard to listen to.

Realistically, editing is a verb - it has to encompass amazingly broad applications. FCP did that fantastically well.

The critics of FCPX are not the stodgy fuddy duddy's, or the luddites: they comprise near precisely the entire body of creative editing raised on FCP.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Mortner
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:01:49 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Realistically, editing is a verb - it has to encompass amazingly broad applications. FCP did that fantastically well.

The critics of FCPX are not the stodgy fuddy duddy's, or the luddites: they comprise near precisely the entire body of creative editing raised on FCP."


EXACTLY !! And thank you


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:51:50 pm

I hear your pain.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 6:18:12 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " it, is a goldfish in the sahara."

Nice line.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 10:24:56 pm

it's no comment of the year mind you.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Mike Molenda
Re: on the PPro product manager popping his head around the door to give a heads up.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 1:40:30 pm

I have to say I was pretty impressed that David McGavran (John Adobe himself) took the time to log on to try to reproduce a problem I had while screwing around with outdated third-party software.

I'm expecting something huge from Adobe at NAB. It's like being a kid on Christmas. I don't think I've been this excited about something so nerdy since... well, since the weeks leading up to the release of FCPX...

Here's hoping the bubble doesn't burst the same way it did last June.


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