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Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.

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Sean Davison
Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 12:33:19 pm

By that I mean:

More than 2 tracks of Video
More than 10 tracks of audio
More than 45 minutes long
Broadcast safe
Exported to Protools for audio mix (5.1 and Dolby E)
Reimported audio
Laid back to HDCam SR with discrete audio tracks
(Stereo LR, M and E LR, Dolby E 5.1, Dolby E 5.1 M and E)
The resulting SR tape to undergo a full QC
All Credits, Straps etc to 14:9 GfxSafe

Broadcast on a mainstream TV Channel.

?

Life on the Bleedin' Cutting Edge....

http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


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Jules bowman
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 12:48:25 pm

perhaps not. but you can export straight to YouTube. how cool is that?


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Jason Porthouse
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 1:48:27 pm

I'd be interested in this too, though your workflow (whilst perfectly fine) is 'traditional' in it's conception. With X having no tape layback, you'd be looking at doing this some other way - I've always let the dubbing mixer layback audio on the master, but I guess in X you'd need to export a final QT, and use something like Blackmagic's Media Express for layback to SR. And you'd be looking at roles for export to ProTools rather than tracks (seeing as there ain't none!)

As to how well broadcast safe filter works - well that would be a test, assuming it's not going through a legaliser.

I can see no reason why it shouldn't work - but as you say, living on the bleeding edge can be a precarious place. It hurts when you fall off.

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*


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Jonathan White
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 2:23:34 pm

I cut a 25' drama doc last Christmas....didn't do everything on your list.... I found it wonderful for the editing process... Got footage from RED... imported in FCP7.... edit in X.... grade in X... getting an OMF was a nightmare... used x27 to get into FCP7 and export OMF but lots of issues.... hopefully x2pro will sort this... mastered to digibeta in FCP7...... basically used FCP7 to fill the gaps but the editing process on x was a dream, never cut a programme so fast... grading was good too... used broadcast safe filter in fcp7 for final output....
Johnny

Seanchas Productions, Galway, Ireland


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Richard Herd
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 3:58:50 pm

[Jonathan White] "the editing process on x was a dream"

Exactly.

There's more to do than edit of course, but they have done that right. Any editor who takes the opportunity/risk to just cut some pic in X will be amazed at how cool it is.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 4:13:11 pm

theres alot things for me that make it uncool. No 3 point editing into anything other than the primary = lame.

The slip and slide functionality is broken. No match frame in the traditional sense of the word. Audio is a mess. Too much mouseing around, not too keyboard friendly.

Ive tried to use it, i did some interviews stuff with a music bed and broll.. worked great for that minus the sluggishness,beachballs, etc.. I really couldn't imagine cutting narrative stuff on it tho. The match frame thing for me is a killer, and coming from a background in Avid, i still find 3 point editing to be my fastest way of getting stuff down.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Richard Herd
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 4:38:16 pm

I ain't the ambassador!

[Neil Goodman] "No 3 point editing into anything other than the primary = lame"

These are tough discussions to have because the nomenclature has changed. For example, I'm thinking, you can do compound clips that are not the primary. Also you can stack secondaries on top of the primaries. I had to spend a lot of time reading the manual. Fortunately, I like to read.

What do you mean match frame thing? Do you mean the precision editor?

I found cutting a narrative easier than 7, especially with regard to Js and Ls.

Audio has two aspects: (1) the "tracklessness" which I wrote about below; and (2) Effects, the effects blow away 7.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 5:57:30 pm

by match frame i mean the ability to have a freeze frame in a reference monitor or on the source side, so when dealing with continuity, you can better line things up.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Richard Herd
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 7:33:21 pm

Does this help? http://help.apple.com/finalcutpro/mac/10.0.3/#ver3363b235


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Chris Conlee
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 22, 2012 at 5:20:38 am

[Richard Herd] "Does this help?"

Slightly different beast. Match frame allows you to sit on a frame in the timeline and "match back" to that frame in the original media in the bin. Makes it quick and easy to go from one line of dialog in the timeline, say, to that character's next line of dialog in the same take. Many uses, but that's a quick one that I do all the time.

Chris


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Richard Herd
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 22, 2012 at 3:07:04 pm

I never used that in 7. So I googled it and found this: http://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/reference-source-media-using-match-frame-in...


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alban egger
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 22, 2012 at 7:05:15 am

[Neil Goodman] "No 3 point editing into anything other than the primary = lame"

Well and you are apparently one of those who played 10 minutes with it and then gave up. Of course you can 3-point edit into the primary or as a connected clip.
Yes, there is quite some "mousing over" with skimming , but it beats the double-clicking of FCP7 easily.
There are a few audio-quirks still, but other than that it works great in all productions we do.

@Sean: We made a 52-documentary with version 10.0.0 in summer already. In 10.0.3 it would be a lot easier! I did almost everything you ask for: but only 8 tracks audio and export to XDCam MXF instead of tape, but that would have been one more button.
We didn´t survive QC but we aced it! We actually got a call that it was one of the best out-of-house QC of the year! You can imagine we were extra careful, too ;-)

The only problem we had with 10.0.0 was the OMF export. But we managed and it took not long to export our Audiotracks to FCP7 to fill in the missing export options in that old version.

Overall it beats FCP legacy in speed (media management and of course editing) and color-accuracy (when you not only export for one channel, but deliver parts or versions to different ones in different codecs and media: MPEGs, MXFs, h.264 etc).

In the new version everything is different than in summer. XML works, re-linking works, a lot of the initial bugs are ironed out...it is growing up. It might not be ready for your tape-workflow, but once you moved on FCPX will have moved ahead of you also.



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Chris Steele
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 4:47:12 pm

Hi Jonathan, we got X2Pro up on the Apple Mac App Store http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/x2pro-audio-convert/id501688639?ls=1&mt=12. It takes the FCPX XML and creates an AAF with all the audio embedded. No levels, automatic gain or fade handles yet, but they should be in an update we'll post in a couple of weeks. Love to hear how it goes.

Chris Steele
Product Manager
Marquis Broadcast


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Neil Patience
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 3:51:12 pm

[Jason Porthouse] "though your workflow (whilst perfectly fine) is 'traditional' in it's conception."

Whilst you may think this is somehow 'traditional' this is what just about every broadcast documentary has to go through.

At least in the UK where Sean and I are based.

In terms of programme delivery to broadcast stations there is a common file delivery format that is being agreed by UK broadcasters under the banner of the Digital Production Partnership.

From their website:

"Through the DPP, seven major broadcasters (BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Sky, Channel 5, S4C and UKTV), have all agreed the UK’s first common file format," . . . .
. . . After a period of piloting, file based delivery will be the preferred delivery format for these Broadcasters by 2014."


Of course that will not mean the end of tape delivery in 2014, just the beginning of file delivery.

So tape is going to be around for a while.

Obviously it will decline as a delivery format after 2014 however anyone making documentaries, especially those that use archive, which is many of them, are going to still be faced with archive and library sources from tape for years after that.

So as forward thinking as FCPX may or may not be, Apple's tapeless utopia is still quite a way off.

Still at least they may just about have made it work by 2014.

Hi Sean - hope you are well.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 4:29:21 pm

Neil,


Interesting, thanks. I found this directly related news item for those interested:

http://www.televisual.com/news-detail/DPP-unveils-new-standards-for-file-ba...


Franz.


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Jason Porthouse
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 10:20:59 pm

[Neil Patience] "Whilst you may think this is somehow 'traditional' this is what just about every broadcast documentary has to go through."

Oh I know all too well Neil, and I wasn't implying any criticism of the workflow. It's exactly what I'd do (minus laying back audio on the master in one run - as I said the dubbing mixer has always done that in most instances I've used one). I was using 'traditional' in the sense of our well trod paradigm in the broadcast world - and I totally agree, FCPX has thrown too many of these out for me to be truly comfortable. What's frustrating is that it would only take a few additions (as others have pointed out, match framing etc) to be truly powerful IMHO.

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 21, 2012 at 4:22:13 pm

Sean,


I'm more interested in large project and long-term stress-tests.

With the project that I finished in November, I first started cutting in September of 2009. It involved well over two hundred hours of footage and well over a hundred sequences, organized into about ten projects in FCP6. Most of the cutting was done on one system, though I did do a few weeks with a drive of selected media on my own system with FCP7.

FCP7 has it's own bloat issues but I know how to work around them; even setting aside the co-operative workflow issues, with the few things I've read about X I can't imagine anyone starting a larger project on that software.

But I'd be interested to hear about it ...


Franz.


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Hunter Weeks
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:30:05 pm

Franz,
I'm editing a feature documentary (Where the Yellowstone Goes) in FCP X right now. The system is handling everything really well; much better than expected. The updates have helped it all feel more secure. But I love the editing process much more than working with the archaic, unreliable FCP 7 and before.

That being said, I've had plenty of small challenges with the new FCP X (but have quickly moved past those and had nothing that derailed productivity) and am now that I'm at finishing stage, I'm having all kinds of issues with how to get OMF out and to work with our colorist. I've still not decided if we'll use Xto7 for the whole film (89 mins) or if we'll try the X2Pro for an AAF and just find a colorist who will work within FCP X.

FYI - We have about 200 hours of footage and I've been editing with some proves 422 that was created from Sony fs-100 files, lots of Canon h264 native, go pro, many PNGs, time lapse JPEG sequences, and audio from a variety of sources.

So, I'm definitely happy with how the editing process, categorization, and over all reliability of FCP X has been with all this, but now with finishing this thing, I'm getting nervous. And yes, my post houses think I'm ridiculous for taking the plunge with FCP X. I'm a believer.

Best,
Hunter
http://www.hunterweeks.com


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:38:13 pm

Hunter,


Thanks for this.

I'd be interested to know how you've been organizing your sequences (projects) and how many you've used as you edit/organize and if that has presented any challenges.

Also, how large do you projects tend to get? Do you notice any slow down or sluggishness with large projects?

Thanks again.


Franz.


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Hunter Weeks
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 11:31:51 pm

Franz,
My documentary is about a 30 day river journey, so for events, I created each day as it's own events (had 31 + pre-trip, and a couple post trip interviews). In Projects (sequences), I edited my story with scenes (about 3 days each) and created each of these as it's own project. I eventually compounded all of the clips in each project and added those to a new "Whole Damn Movie" project. It worked awesome. I continued to refine the rough cut this way and have since created various other projects that I'm working on.

By having so many projects, you are slowed down a little when the system has to go into your main index view where you can see all the projects (or when first starting up), but typically FCP X seems to know to only focus on the project or two that are in your recent history, so you can use these small arrows to go back and forth with those.

I do get the beach balls and I try to stay calm, but the crashing is almost non existent for me now (when I first experimented - a few updates ago - i had many more). But the persistent save feature has always come through for me.

I was very nervous to jump in so fast with FCP X, but I did a bunch of short videos and felt I should embrace it sooner than later. And I'm happy I have.

I just wish this finishing side was more considerate of the need for pro help. I get what Apple is trying to do, but they need to understand that while the modern day editor can handle 95% of the post, at least 5% should always go more pro.

Good luck!
Hunter


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 11:52:14 pm

Hunter,


This is good info - I have not read of any other experiences using FCPX for long form projects.

I'd suggest, once you're through the gauntlet, putting together a post of your experiences in the forum if you have the time. I would certainly be interested in hearing about them, and I'm sure there would be others.

Many thanks.


Franz.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 11:58:04 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Hunter,


This is good info - I have not read of any other experiences using FCPX for long form projects.

I'd suggest, once you're through the gauntlet, putting together a post of your experiences in the forum if you have the time. I would certainly be interested in hearing about them, and I'm sure there would be others.

Many thanks.


Franz.
"


Hunter, I agree with Franz. I'd be very interested in a full right-up when you get there.


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Steve Connor
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 28, 2012 at 8:07:43 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "This is good info - I have not read of any other experiences using FCPX for long form projects.

I'd suggest, once you're through the gauntlet, putting together a post of your experiences in the forum if you have the time. I would certainly be interested in hearing about them, and I'm sure there would be others.
"


There has been other posts over the last few months, I posted last year about two 120 minute event documentaries I made with FCPX. I've also just finished the offline of 97 minute feature film on it and just about to start the online. I'll be writing this up when it's done in the next few weeks

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 28, 2012 at 1:41:35 pm

Steve,

I'm looking forward to hearing about it.

Franz.


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Steve Connor
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 27, 2012 at 9:38:39 pm

[Hunter Weeks] " I've still not decided if we'll use Xto7 for the whole film (89 mins) or if we'll try the X2Pro for an AAF and just find a colorist who will work within FCP X.
"


xml export to DaVinci Resolve is pretty solid now, the feature I'm working on in FCPX is being graded on it as we speak.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Professional"
Adrenalin Television


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tony west
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 22, 2012 at 12:30:18 am

[Sean Davison] "More than 2 tracks of Video
More than 10 tracks of audio "



Isn't one of the objectives of X to consolidate "tracks" so you use fewer of them.

I seem to remember Apple using that as a selling point.


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Jim Giberti
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 22, 2012 at 12:55:03 am

[tony west] "Isn't one of the objectives of X to consolidate "tracks" so you use fewer of them.

I seem to remember Apple using that as a selling point."


Here's what I've come to with this Tony - it may have been seen as a selling point, but it certainly isn't to pros.

I can work with audio in X but it doesn't remotely compare to sitting at a console with all my channel strips and tracks in front of me in real time (likewise virtually in DP and PT.) Looks like the new PP has just that, for instance.

A selling point would be a simple command to toggle all of that on and off depending on what you're editing. But not providing the ability is a huge, amateur compromise.

Here we go with an analogy: If I'm flying, I don't want my pilot's seemingly dizzying array of controls to be consolidated so that he has to go through a process to get to anything at any time.

They're dizzying to me because I'm not a pilot.

He's a pro, he's trained for years so that all those controls aren't confusing, but precisely how he flies his plane successfully.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 22, 2012 at 1:16:15 am

[Jim Giberti] "They're dizzying to me because I'm not a pilot.
He's a pro, he's trained for years so that all those controls aren't confusing, but precisely how he flies his plane successfully."

Especially if he is flying baseball teams around or other analogous cargo. :)

Your point is valid. Simplifying something useful, powerful, standardised and easily understood is frustrating to established users when the offered alternative is just different and not necessary.


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Jim Giberti
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 22, 2012 at 1:25:37 am

[Michael Gissing] "Simplifying something useful, powerful, standardised and easily understood is frustrating to established users when the offered alternative is just different and not necessary.
"


Which is why this is such an ambiguous program that seems like a compromise rather than a vision.

Simplifying things makes sense if you're trying to learn a complex craft - which quality editing and creative will always be - but it's antithetical to professionals who understand their craft.


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tony west
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 22, 2012 at 2:43:54 am

OK, I think I got you Jim.

So don't embed the audio with the video unless you wanted that way?


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Sean Davison
Re: Has anyone used FCPX to cut a proper documentary for broadcast.
on Mar 26, 2012 at 10:56:30 am

Interesting responses...
I havent used x on a project yet - I got too frustrated with the lack of pro broadcast features - it has some great things - the keyer, the grading and the xml transfer of grades to resolve - all good pro features. But if we are really to export files (which is fine) then all the more reason to sort out the track issues .

If I playout to quicktime for delivery, the broadcaster will still require discreet 5.1, m an e and audio stems .
So the file based thing still wont work!

Hi neil - lets speak soon!

Life on the Bleedin' Cutting Edge....

http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


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