FORUMS: list search recent posts

OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Chris Harlan
OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 17, 2012 at 9:01:44 pm



Return to posts index

Daniel Lawrence
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 17, 2012 at 9:38:21 pm

Glorious indeed. That was simply... stellar!


Return to posts index

David Roth Weiss
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 17, 2012 at 10:13:05 pm

Oh my, the Lawrence bros. are taking over the world. They're everywhere. :)

Stay dry Dan... It's only gonna rain 40 days and nites...

DRW

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com
Sales | Integration | Support


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


Return to posts index


Richard Cardonna
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 17, 2012 at 10:23:12 pm

so science is a question of faith says he.
So wht doesn't fcpx work for all


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 12:23:55 am

That is not at all what he is saying. He is saying that certain materials have certain properties. And there is no answering why that is because why at its essence is a completely open question. It has nothing whatever to do with faith.

Tim


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 17, 2012 at 11:02:32 pm

I had the pleasure of meeting this marvelous human being on a shoot and we stayed in touch for the few years he had left. I have never met another human in this life more accepting (for review) of other people's ideas. If he saw a flaw in your argument he would cut you to ribbons. But never in a mean way. He thought. He appreciated other thinkers (I don't kid myself for a minute that he regarded me as such but he was polite enough to disguise that.) This was a man who loved and enjoyed life. And that is, after all, what it is all about.

Tim


Return to posts index


Chris Harlan
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 1:45:10 am

[TImothy Auld] "I had the pleasure of meeting this marvelous human being on a shoot and we stayed in touch for the few years he had left. I have never met another human in this life more accepting (for review) of other people's ideas. If he saw a flaw in your argument he would cut you to ribbons. But never in a mean way. He thought. He appreciated other thinkers (I don't kid myself for a minute that he regarded me as such but he was polite enough to disguise that.) This was a man who loved and enjoyed life. And that is, after all, what it is all about.

Tim"


What a marvelous pleasure that must have been, Tim. I've looked up to and have enjoyed this guy for years. Even in this short piece, simply watching his thought process and the associations he is making as he extemporizes, is inspiring.


Return to posts index

David Cherniack
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 17, 2012 at 11:44:44 pm

Beautiful exposition on the nature of causation and epistemology, as well as the inherent problem with analogies.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


Return to posts index

Phil Hoppes
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 12:10:58 am

Never met him but I purchased his lecture series (back in my engineer days) and his lecture series on tape on Fundamental Physics. A wonderful individual and just incredibly smart. The world is just a tad smaller due to his departure.


Return to posts index


Jim Giberti
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 1:31:48 am

I'm familiar with this piece and don't see it as a "problem with analogies" exposition.

Analogies are a fundamental and essential part of human understanding.

In fact Mr Feynman actually uses the term "analogous" when referring to the magnetic and electrical forces. In this case it was obvious that analogy would have no value to the interviewer. If he were talking to a physics student it would have helped push understanding forward.

Analogies are invaluable short hand for people with a shared base of knowledge.

Analogies are invaluable in communicating abstract concepts to people with no shared base of knowledge - parables for instance.

Analogies fuel music, poetry and literature in general.

The value of any analogy is based on the quality of the comparison being struck and the ability to grasp the cultural/experiential background of the people you're communicating with.

Saying that there's something inherently wrong with analogies is like saying there's something inherently wrong with Italian food or Impressionism.


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 2:00:45 am

[Jim Giberti] "Analogies fuel music, poetry and literature in general.

The value of any analogy is based on the quality of the comparison being struck and the ability to grasp the cultural/experiential background of the people you're communicating with.

Saying that there's something inherently wrong with analogies is like saying there's something inherently wrong with Italian food or Impressionism."


I agree completely. I just thought, given our forum's recent obsession with the validity of analogies, that this piece--thick with precise, beautiful analogies about the difficulty and/or disservice of tossing off vague or false analogies, and about, just generally, the complexity involved in making successful analogies of complicated subjects--was a worthy comment to add to all the recent braying. Plus, I just love the musical thought that spews out of him, with all its themes and variations. He's just so Baroque.

Plus, I love that he actually gets across what that "feeling" is when you push to magnets together.


Return to posts index

Jim Giberti
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 2:22:41 am

[Chris Harlan] "He's just so Baroque.

Plus, I love that he actually gets across what that "feeling" is when you push to magnets together."


He's amazing.

From a writing, storytelling standpoint I have great respect for well crafted analogies, and from a technical standpoint too.

But I agree, nothing's more frustrating than weak and arbitrary analogies (and any analogy that includes the word nazi.)

In a real sense, American culture is fueled by bad analogies.

And that sucks.


Return to posts index


Bill Davis
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 7:03:37 am

[Jim Giberti] "(and any analogy that includes the word nazi.)"

OK, now THATS funny.

[Jim Giberti] "In a real sense, American culture is fueled by bad analogies.

And that sucks.
"


But zen conversely, Jim - if the bad ones don't exist - then the good ones can't either.

; )

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 10:20:47 am

Thanks for posting that, I hadn't seen that clip before. He brings to mind the Ruler of The Universe from " The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 2:06:36 am

[Jim Giberti] "Saying that there's something inherently wrong with analogies is like saying there's something inherently wrong with Italian food or Impressionism."


Jim,


Who said there's anything inherently wrong with analogies? Chris Harlan's title is "limits, uses, and failings". You seem to think that the intention is "problems with analogies", when it's clearly larger than that.

I first saw this clip over a year ago, and I remember it well. Beautiful stuff.


Franz.


Return to posts index


Jim Giberti
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 2:30:47 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "
Who said there's anything inherently wrong with analogies? Chris Harlan's title is "limits, uses, and failings". You seem to think that the intention is "problems with analogies", when it's clearly larger than that."


No, I just chose to counter with the potential limits and failing of analogies with the potential and success of analogies.

I don't think either is larger or smaller in context.

I was just having a little fun by ending my post with an analogy.


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 2:48:32 am

Jim,

It's true - Feynman is addressing problems in language, or problems in the way we use language to convey scientific models and understanding. By focusing on the problems, though, he isn't discounting those fields where it blooms. In fact, he's quite adept with the tool.

What I remember most is how he emphasizes the difference between what most people mean by "understanding" and what science means by "understanding".

There was an article I read recently about a theory that language itself is based on metaphor at a fundamental level; memory is foggy tonight and I can't find it with searches, though it's out there in the zeitgeist.

... all this assuming "simile", "metaphor", and "analogy" as synonymous.


Franz.


Return to posts index

Jim Giberti
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 3:01:14 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "There was an article I read recently about a theory that language itself is based on metaphor at a fundamental level;"


Absolutely.
That reminds me very much of something I remember from Carl Sagan a while ago, discussing the origins of language.
Specifically the expression "shhhhh" as a pre-language warning representing the sound and potential threat of a snake.


Return to posts index

jamie thorne
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 19, 2012 at 4:05:54 am

Douglas Hofstadter "Analogy as the Core of Cognition".







Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 19, 2012 at 4:48:41 pm

Jamie, I'm quite looking forward to listening to this lecture as soon as I've got an hour to slot it. I've always wanted to read GEB, but have never gotten around to it.


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 19, 2012 at 5:01:29 pm

Jamie,

Thanks - of course, that wasn't the reference I was thinking of but I hadn't heard Hofstadter talk before. Good stuff - he's pretty entertaining, as one might expect.

For those who are interested, he defines analogy as "the perception of common essence between two things" and outlines a model where we are constantly testing (at a fundamental level) our experiences for analogous ones. I think he might be arguing that all concepts (and categories) are analogies at a fundamental level, but he doesn't go into that. Also he seems to focus mostly on language as a reflection of experience.

It's particularly interesting in light of the way that editing (or writing) can build meaning out of experience.

Favourite line (slightly paraphrased): "Analogies just happen; they serve no purpose."

Hofstadter on stage at 13mins ish.


Franz.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: OT Saturday: Richard Feynman inadvertently but gloriously explores the limits, uses and failings of analogies.
on Mar 18, 2012 at 7:23:09 pm

So excellent. Thanks for posting, Chris.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]