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Quoi faire?

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Michael Brassert
Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 4:11:15 pm

I have been in the industry since 1981. I shot film until 2001. I made the post move to tape from film in 1985, to Avid in 1991 with a linear online, Media 100 to master from 1994 to 2002, and FCP till today. I have always been forward thinking and have been one of the first to adapt new technologies including building one of the first post facilities in New York that was completely based on Macs, AE and Media 100 in 1994. I have called it pretty well all along and have not made any big mistakes in going with platforms, hardware or software. My choices have pretty much been mirrored with the majority of pros out there that have embraced new technology. Our shop presently is on FCP 7, AE, Color and AJA cards.

For the first time in 30 years I am stumped on where to go next. I so want to embrace FCPX. Has 10.0.3 made it viable moving forward? Is there hope?



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Steve Connor
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 4:17:20 pm

Yes of course there is hope, clearly FCPX is going to be developed much further, but everything depends on your particular needs. What sort of work are you doing?

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Michael Brassert
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 4:25:55 pm

We are doing everything from 30 second spots to full length broadcast docs, with a spattering of corporate videos for the web, dvd, events etc. We do not shoot or cut much above 1080p.



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Bill Davis
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 6:20:47 pm

Look,

FCP-X costs between $299 and $399 depending on whether you want Motion and Compressor.

The cost is largely trivial in any serious video for money endeavor.

What is not trivial is wrapping your thinking around the FCP-X approach to editing. From overall design, to it's new database capabilities, to it's layout and organization, there is much re-training and re-thinking necessary in order to understand and learn what it's capable of doing.

IMO, it takes most editors at least a few months to fully grasp all of the hallways, nooks and crannies in the software - and what it can and can't do well.

X may be inexpensive, and downloadable - but don't make the mistake of thinking that means it's going to be "easy" to fully learn and use. It's not.

An increasing number of us believe it's the roadmap to a more flexible and in many ways "better" editing future - but it simply takes a while to learn to drive the new vehicle.

So if you have to turn out work now - I'd go ahead and buy it and start to explore it, but I'd use something more traditional (Perhaps even Legacy, if you already own a version that still works) if you find yourself facing current deadlines.

In six months, if you're like me, you'll shudder at the thought of editing on anything else.

But that's an evolution for those of us who's work "fits" what FCP-X is designed to do - not for every editor in every situation.

I would personally suggest you start your journey up the learning curve sooner rather than later. After all, the company responsible for the most successful video editing software of the recent past has signaled that this is the future of their editing products line.

You'll notice that even lots of those who trash it consistently are STILL coming back here to obsess over it and debate it. So their continuing engagement is a clear sign that virtually none of them actually believe that FCP-X is irrelevant to professional editing.

So dismiss it at your risk, IMO.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Shane Ross
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 9:17:55 pm

[Bill Davis] "You'll notice that even lots of those who trash it consistently are STILL coming back here to obsess over it and debate it. So their continuing engagement is a clear sign that virtually none of them actually believe that FCP-X is irrelevant to professional editing."

No...we just like to trash FCX whenever we can. (hee hee).

I do pop in here occasionally to see if someone has done something with FCX on a type of project that is in my area of production, just to see if it was successful and what they did to make it work. But as FCX is showing no signs of use, or thoughts of use in projects that I work on (Documentary series, long form doc specials, narrative TV shows, feature film...even broadcast TV promos...in Hollywood and surrounding areas), I cannot see learning to use it.

Then again, that's what it was like with FCP 1-3. It was cute, but not used. Only when it added features that we needed did we pay attention. So, we'll see how Capture Card support pans out...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Powell
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 10:28:53 pm

Shane,

I see you mentioned capture cards. Is that the last missing link for you? Do you not consider a trackless environment a dead end?


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Shane Ross
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 1:25:06 am

Tracks are VERY important to me. People say "Oh, Roles solves that!" But that doesn't solve my internal way of organizing what goes where audio wise. BEing able to tell, by looking, what track is SFX and what is MUSIC. The magnetic Timeline is a complete mess IMHO. Tracking with metadata does nothing for me there. I need to see what is where. It REALLY helps me mix, and if some odd SFX or SOT is scattered somewhere...pain.

Some people love the Magnetic Timeline and only gush. To me it is a pain, a HUGE step backwards, and a jumbled awkward mess.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 1:27:25 am

It's like grabbing an audio clip, slapping a colored ribbon on it (You have THIS Role)...and just throwing it into the pool. Grabbing another audio clip, slap another Role to it, throw it in the pool You then have a pool of clips with different colors and there is a filter that will separate them in the end...but that doesn't help me at all when I need to mix all the music lower, or the SFX higher...I need to look for it.

(Yes, I am using an analogy...maybe a poor one. So shoot me...)

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 7:33:47 am

I agree Shane - love tracks. One of the things I love about Vegas Pro is the ability to assign Dialog, FX and Music to their own busses to quickly turn them off and on and for exporting stems. Even better is container tracks - meaning you can have say 20 FX tracks in a twirl down container much like Nuendo and now Pro Tools 10 - never understood why more NLE's don't have these features?

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Richard Herd
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 4:14:56 pm

What colored ribbon? If you can actually assign colors to roles, would someone please send me a clue!

You can also select clips via control-clicking and make them a Compound Clip (CMD-[ and ]) allows you to move between CCs pretty fast. Once they are a CC, you can adjust the audio as a whole, which is not a track, btw; it just pretends to be. Effects, EQs etc can be applied to individual clips and to the whole CC.

The solution here is not that complicated. Colors to roles. Then a window to view audio mixing. Assigned colors show up as levels, etc.

Thanks!


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Richard Herd
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 4:14:56 pm

[Shane Ross] "BEing able to tell, by looking, what track is SFX and what is MUSIC. The magnetic Timeline is a complete mess IMHO."

You have no idea! I mean it is so messy as to be ridiculous. Apple immediately needs to correlate a color with a role, or better yet, let me define that.

I label MUSIC, then it gets RED
I label VO, then it gets BLUE.

And so on. Right now everything is green. That will solve my problem from yesterday.


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Shane Ross
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 7:24:12 pm

Can you color your source clips? Does that color carry over to the timeline? That's one of the ways I did that in FCP Legacy.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Richard Herd
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 10:21:00 pm

[Shane Ross] "Can you color your source clips? Does that color carry over to the timeline? "

No.

No.


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Shane Ross
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 7, 2012 at 1:50:10 am

I swore that I saw a demo that showed clips being colored. Meaning you could make a clip blue, green, red...the FULL clip, not just the title. And that it changed in the timeline too. That's a "workaround". I should work.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mark Dobson
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 6:11:36 pm

[Michael Brassert] "For the first time in 30 years I am stumped on where to go next. I so want to embrace FCPX. Has 10.0.3 made it viable moving forward? Is there hope?"

If I were you I would run FCPX in tandem with your present set up which presumably still works well.

I don't actually think that FCPX is ready for the big time yet. It's getting there and is fine for people like me who shoot and edit their own material albeit to broadcast specifications. But I don't think I would run a production house around it.

I really like FCPX and in many ways feel like I am willing it work better than it does. I find it absolutely frustrating and unreliable against tight deadlines. Whilst 10.0.3 is substantially better than the product that was launched last summer it is still very twitchy and throws absolute wobblies from time to time.

All my main concerns have been answered, broadcast monitoring, support for 3rd party apps, multi cam, etc etc but it still has a long way to go before it can be considered as a reliable alternative to FCP7 or a real contender up against Avid and Premier Pro.

Most people in the situation you describe have already switched away from Apple.

However, for me I know that FCPX is going to be my primary editing tool for many years to come in fact it will probably see me through into retirement, beekeeping and non digital activities.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 7:00:51 pm

Yeah, it's cheap. But how long will the platform it runs on be around?
If the announcement that apple has suspended sales of all laptops and desktops came tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised.
I also wouldn't be surprised if they announced the EOL of X either.
They have yanked the rug out from under users so many times in the past, including users that had a much bigger investment than 4oo dollars.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Greg Andonian
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 7:15:28 pm

Yes, sometimes it was a very expensive rug that got yanked. *COUGH* Shake *COUGH*

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Michael Gissing
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 11:24:19 pm

The argument that it is $299 or download a trial ignores the fact that it is advisable for anyone using FCP7 commercially to protect and isolate a working setup before installing Lion and FCPX or CS5.5 or AVID.

So factor in the cost and effort of either a drive partition and a full OS and software install on a separate partition or drive to keep your money making but potentially fragile system from being broken by just downloading and installing trial or otherwise version of software on a legacy system.

Just hop over to the FCP legacy forum and search for the issues many have faced with trying to update OS and install FCPX on existing FCP7 systems


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 11:22:49 pm

Michael,


If you have the liberty (like myself) to wait a bit, there is Premiere CS6 which will arrive in the next couple of months and Lightworks which seems to be imminent. Once those are released you'll have a full field of options to compare before making a move.

If you're not tied to Apple platforms then the field is a bit wider as well, though Avid, Adobe, and apparently Lightworks are or will be cross-platform.


Franz.


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Michael Brassert
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 12:36:50 am

Of everything out there Lightworks intrigues me the most. Although I am not that familiar with it I like the philosophy of basic editing with less keystrokes. If it can handle the various codecs, have a good titler and plugin support, not to mention stability I am there. I don't know why but have a good feeling in my gut about Lightworks.



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tony west
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 6:35:03 am

I went on Youtube and looked at some Lightworks demos.

Man, talk about a learning curve.

It didn't look like anything I have worked with before.

I looked at how it did titles..............hummmmmm


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 5, 2012 at 11:37:37 pm

[Michael Brassert] "Has 10.0.3 made it viable moving forward?"

An incremental update can't fix a fundamentally flawed concept.


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Richard Herd
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 4:18:51 pm

That's what they said about germ theory ;)

It's a pun...on "bugs."

Oh well.


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Michael Brassert
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 12:40:52 am

You know what's funny? No one is bashing Avid or Premiere Pro.



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Neil Goodman
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 1:44:23 am

i pop up in here, just like Shane, to see what and if people are doing with it. I havent seen anything really that was advertised as being cut with X other then some web videos. There were slickly cut, well produced, etc, but im more interested in tv/film workflow's than with montages and music videos.


that said, i do hope it matures into something great. I have 10.03 0n my system and poke at it every once in a while but until i see the pro markets out here shift in that direction, im not gonna dive in to deep. Ever since the Media Composer 6.01 update, i really havent wanted or felt the need to use anything else. Even doing basic AE stuff into Avid FX because it works good.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Renato Sanjuán
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 10:05:43 am

I remember doing my first paid jobs on a Lightworks back in the days when I was a youngster and I was just out of film school.
It died off a few months after that.

Not the sexiest GUI on the planet and effects were very limited, but editing was a pleasure. Excellent media management and a trim function that was every bit as good as Avid's. I use trim a lot so that's a big thing for me. It was very easy to use once you got used to it. I don't remember any problems switching from Avid to Lightworks.

I read effects are very much improved but I haven't tinkered with it yet.

I also recall some very modern traits such as instant saves of every command, rock solid stability and the ability to use search filters to make "temporary bins" that you could trash once you'd edited with them. Meaning you would organize your footage into bins and the bins into "racks", just like you would do on any other nle, but you could also search based on criteria and make "temporary bins" that were trashed when you closed them (unless you specifically wanted to keep them). It was a cool way of finding footage and working with it without ending up with a ton of bins cluttering your project.

Edls and cut lists were very powerful and nicely implemented, so if they've built on that I would guess it's probably very optimized for collaborative workflows.

I'm happy Lightworks is alive again. I really hope it takes off.
If it delivers the features they advertise on the Lightworks website it should be ready for even the most elaborate workflows. They are building on what was already very stable and excellently designed software over 15 years ago, so there's reasons to be hopeful.

All in all, if you can wait I'd say it's definitely worth a look. Mac version was due at the end of November 2011, so hopefully it will be out soon.


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tony west
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 3:59:24 pm

[Renato Sanjuán] "Not the sexiest GUI on the planet"

You can say that again. That's the first thing I noticed about the new one.

It's got some cool 3D features though.

In jumping around checking out the different NLE's, they all have some features I like and some I don't like.

I'm glad lightworks is out there also.

With all these choices seems most editors will find the one that's right for their own specific needs.


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Renato Sanjuán
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 5:00:47 pm

It looks very much like it did in 1997 when it ran under MS-DOS, which was pretty mind blowing even way back then. Coming from the Avid Mac interface it was kind of a shock at first, it looked pretty ancient with the flat colors and all. I eventually got used to it and even liked it.
The shark icon that served as a wastebasket has also made it into the 21st century.

I thought they would completely rework the GUI, but they've decided to proudly acknowledge their heritage as one of the most venerable nles out there I guess. I wonder if they're not worried that some people may be put off by it.

On the other hand they're the first nle to sport a genuinely retro interface...


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Chris Harlan
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 5:22:50 pm

[Renato Sanjuán] " Coming from the Avid Mac interface it was kind of a shock at first, it looked pretty ancient with the flat colors and all. "

Hey, what's old is new again. Have you seen the Start window--or whatever it is now called--for Windows 8?


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Miłosz Koziol
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 6:31:33 pm

OK - I was using FCS 3 for last two years. I bought MC 5.5 during cheap 999$ cross grade in october and, to be honest, I learned (poorly) it but was doing all of my editing in FCP 7. When I got a new macbook i also got mc 6.01. After one test job (paid) all I can say is that is vastly superior to FCS7 (speed, format acceptance through AMA). After about an hour of basic tutorials I was able to edit normal 5 min job for nationwide broadcaster. I tried to use FCPX but is counterintuitive ( And I was a real AVID hater! )and difficult in basic editing. Also the way it hadles media is really annoying. It is neither precise nor fast and ALSO it handles h264 far less efficently than MC 6.01. The only thing that is really well played from apple side is the new motion - I use it for titles and simple ADs - it`s perfect. That said (and me being all for apple products guy) I cant find any uses for FCPX - maybe in 4 k editing but I m not doing any ...


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Shane Ross
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 7:34:22 pm

[Michael Brassert] "No one is bashing Avid or Premiere Pro."

I certainly bashed Avid 8 years ago when I made the switch to FCP. BOY did I bash it. MANY people basehd it. That's how FCP got a foothold in broadcast TV, because Avid sucked on nearly every level. It was BAD! FCP came about, and Avid started losing market share, and money, so they shaped up quick! But, I still bash them...their 16 channel realtime audio playback limit is a joke, and 24 channels of audio (and video, BTW), is downright stupid!

Premiere? Yeah, I bash them. Their media management is worse than FCP legacy, and that means it is BAD. Still is bad. Working native only is full of potential issues...and real issues. Forget offline/online workflow...just isn't possible without a LOT of work that isn't worth it. Relinking...if you are lucky you'll get a bunch of clips to relink at a time, otherwise you need to relink one file at a time if you move the footage anywhere.

No, I bash the other guys...and FCP Legacy too, when it deserves it. But FCX took such a radical turn, completely unexpectedly, and is mostly unusable in areas where it was used heavily (feature film, broadcast TV). That's why we bash it so heavily.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Harlan
Re: Quoi faire?
on Mar 6, 2012 at 8:28:21 pm

[Shane Ross] "I certainly bashed Avid 8 years ago when I made the switch to FCP. BOY did I bash it. MANY people basehd it. That's how FCP got a foothold in broadcast TV, because Avid sucked on nearly every level. It was BAD!"

Yup.

[Shane Ross] "But, I still bash them...their 16 channel realtime audio playback limit is a joke, and 24 channels of audio (and video, BTW), is downright stupid!"

Agreed.

[Shane Ross] "No, I bash the other guys...and FCP Legacy too, when it deserves it. But FCX took such a radical turn, completely unexpectedly, and is mostly unusable in areas where it was used heavily (feature film, broadcast TV). That's why we bash it so heavily."

Hear, hear! Or, "Yup, yup!" Whichever is more appropriate.


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