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This is not like that.

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Franz Bieberkopf
This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 12:00:08 am

Without naming names, I've noticed the increasingly pervasive use of analogies as tools of argument here.

I did a quick search and this was the best link I could find outlining the many pitfalls of analogy and why it has the reputation for being "the weakest form of argument".

http://arstechnica.com/business/problem-solving/2010/11/part-3-analogies-in...

(Gratuitous Apple / car analogy included for illustration purposes.)

Offending parties, please brush up on your argument skills.


Franz.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 3:44:16 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Without naming names, I've noticed the increasingly pervasive use of analogies as tools of argument here."

I'm so glad you brought this up Franz. I mean, we're supposed to be communicators after all, so discussing "process" is a good thing.

And, let's not name names, but what do you get in the mail that's not junk mail, not a letter, and not a payment?

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I did a quick search and this was the best link I could find outlining the many pitfalls of analogy and why it has the reputation for being "the weakest form of argument"."

And, on top of that, forgetting their a weak form of argument, some of the analogies are really weak analogies.


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Andrew Richards
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 2:03:58 pm

I'm not naming any names either, but we should all also endeavor to avoid the many other logical fallacies.

Best,
Andy


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Herb Sevush
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 2:42:30 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "outlining the many pitfalls of analogy and why it has the reputation for being "the weakest form of argument"."

I'm a sucker for a girl with a bad reputation, or as the song goes, the sadder but wiser girl for me.

I love analogies; they're colorful and information rich, a great shorthand way to make a complicated point. Good analogies are good, bad analogies should be exposed and fanciful analogies shall forever have a place in both my heart and my logical toolbox. They were good enough for Plato, they're good enough for the cow.

If only I were clever enough to think of an analogy to this discussion of analogies.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bobby Mosca
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 4:03:07 pm

Complaining about analogies in this forum is no different than cooking eggs benedict in China. I mean, really. Get over yourself.


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Richard Herd
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 4:10:22 pm

Someone better tell Plato his Allegory of the Cave is out-moded by the Englightenment.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 4:40:10 pm

[Richard Herd] "Someone better tell Plato his Allegory of the Cave is out-moded by the Englightenment."


Richard,

... or you could read the linked article.

Also, you've committed logical fallacy above, so you may wish to read up on that link as well (helpfully provided as if in anticipation of your comment).

Franz.


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Bernard Newnham
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 6:07:31 pm

"Without naming names, I've noticed the increasingly pervasive use of analogies as tools of argument here.

(Gratuitous Apple / car analogy included for illustration purposes.)"


Well, you can feel free to name me. An analogy - NLE/car for instance - is a much quicker way of making a point than going endlessly and boringly into theories and practice of convergent design styles. "The accelerator pedal is on the right" avoids a very long and boring paragraph.

B


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 6:19:13 pm

Bernard,


Since it is clear that people are commenting here without actually reading the linked material, I'll pull an introductory quote for reference:

Comparisons and analogies are a natural part of everyday argument; philosophers have used them as far back as Plato. Educators love them because they help students understand complicated concepts. But propagandists and ideologues also love them, because it is easy to hide a flawed argument inside of an analogy. ... So how do we distinguish good analogies from bad? In this article, we look at the different ways in which analogies are used in arguments. By understanding why people use analogies, we can come up with some informal guidelines for using them properly.


Franz.


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Chris Harlan
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 6:38:18 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Comparisons and analogies are a natural part of everyday argument; philosophers have used them as far back as Plato. Educators love them because they help students understand complicated concepts. But propagandists and ideologues also love them, because it is easy to hide a flawed argument inside of an analogy. ... So how do we distinguish good analogies from bad? In this article, we look at the different ways in which analogies are used in arguments. By understanding why people use analogies, we can come up with some informal guidelines for using them properly.
"


Sounds good to me. I looked at your link, and what is described there is elementary Logic. I, too, despair when folks analogize to paste over fallacious reasoning.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 6:24:02 pm

NLE go vroom?

I need a manual transmission and they give me an automatic?

Why haul a heavy load in an Audi?

Is this helping at all?


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Richard Herd
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 6:27:07 pm

Your assumptions are well documented.


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Bill Davis
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 8:46:31 pm

Analogies, schlamologies.

I use them. I'll continue to use them.

The more insidious and disingenuous tactic, IMO is to try to "re-frame" the argument by establishing that the only rules worthy to govern the game are "your" rules. That's not only presumptuous, it's insulting.

We've done just fine here for years without the need for you to arbitrate what constitutes proper arguing, and I suspect that we could go along fine for another few decades under the current open discussion system.

You want to argue analogy free - knock yourself out. Heck, you want to argue here without using quotes, capitalization, metaphor, simile, onomatopoeia; or construct thoughts using nothing but dialog lifted straight from early episodes of Star Trek - feel free.

It's an open board. You don't like what someone else writes - you have two persistent options that are universally available to handle that. One is don't read that author. The other is to make a better counter-argument.

But seriously, attempting to to exercise control of the rules is ALWAYS the first glaring sign of someone who can't compete in the game as it's already being played.

Metaphores and similes are wrappers. The idea inside is the gift. You want to hang out talking wrapping paper, get a job in a Hallmark store.

FWIW.

(OK, seeing that posted, it comes across snarkier than I extended. But really, this seems quite a silly argument to me. Plus it was fun to write. So Ignore my signature below. This one stands even if slightly uncivil, because I feel truly dumb ideas sometimes actually do deserve to be labeled as precisely that.)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Bobby Mosca
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 9:19:18 pm

Uh... HELLO! I already said that. Sheesh.


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Chris Harlan
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 9:59:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "The more insidious and disingenuous tactic, IMO is to try to "re-frame" the argument by establishing that the only rules worthy to govern the game are "your" rules. That's not only presumptuous, it's insulting.
"


and

[Bill Davis] "But seriously, attempting to to exercise control of the rules is ALWAYS the first glaring sign of someone who can't compete in the game as it's already being played.
"


I certainly don't see how what Franz has said in anyway constitutes an example of what you are accusing him of here. I think it is a fair observation about the sloppiness of argument on this site, which you can agree with or not, or take to heart or not. Saying that he is "attempting to to exercise control of the rules" could be seen as an "insidious and disingenuous tactic" "to try to "re-frame" the argument by establishing that the only rules worthy to govern the game are "your" rules." I don't see it that way though; I think we mostly just get caught up in our own rhetoric, and dig our own rumbling baritones.

I share Franz's taste for good, clean logic, though I do enjoy a tasty analogy that is properly illustrative of the presented argument. My guess is that Franz is just fine with that as well. The problem arises when an analogy is used--innocently or otherwise--to mask any fallacies present in an argument. It becomes a powerful tool in the hands of con men, talking heads, politicians, and sales folk. You know, sort of a verbal version of the shell game, or many a magic trick that works off of mis-direction.

Bill, I'm pretty certain that you can find it in yourself to understand that Franz was not trying to set up rules, but was instead complaining about the magical misdirection he seems to think takes place here on occasion. By the way, is this your card?


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Bill Davis
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 7:09:29 am

[Chris Harlan] "Bill, I'm pretty certain that you can find it in yourself to understand that Franz was not trying to set up rules, but was instead complaining about the magical misdirection he seems to think takes place here on occasion. By the way, is this your card?"

Strange argument.

If Franz feels "magical mis-direction" is being practiced here - isn't it more helpful if he points it out in specifics?.

He impugned that those folks (presumably myself included since I do enjoy using smile and metaphor in arguments because I'm essentially "story" oriented and feel those forms are typically more inclusive and engaging than dry prose) who employ them should be somehow subject to extra scrutiny lest we diabolically slip in argumentative deception or ill-conceived logic! Warning, DANGER all!

Frankly, I don't have the wit or talent to hide diabolical intent. I just write what I think and hope that some find the thinking interesting at least sometimes.

If Frans believes I'm engaged in logical trickery or even just crappy reasoning, I simply challenge him to do what we all do here regularly. Argue the points being made directly. I think that's superior to trying to paint a whole group of position holders with a broad brush, a practice that allows him to hide behind a scattershot critique of the form - and avoid proffering specific points that can be argued.

In short, if he sees what he believes to be bad arguments - by all means, point them out.

Then we can all learn from the discussion.

Chris, you disagree with me constantly. And that's totally fine with me. It keeps me on my toes.

But no matter how much you push back, you push at me openly and under your own name. Thats both respectful and respectable.

Sniping at people from behind a veil "lookee, looked, someone wrote about how dumb arguments can take the form they take here - so be extra wary in case those wiley storytellers bamboozle you" smacks of someone who didn't want to step up and confront the individual arguments, but rather wanted to put themselves on some imaginary high ground without making any argument to support such a need.

It's what passes for modern political argument writ cranky... "but you're a (republicrat -no, wait, WORSE - you're a metaphoreist!!! - therefore you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about!

Sounds a bit silly doesn't it?

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Roth Weiss
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 1:35:37 am

[Bill Davis] "Analogies, schlamologies.

I use them. I'll continue to use them."


Yes, you will, and bad ones at that, no doubt.

[Bill Davis] "The more insidious and disingenuous tactic, IMO is to try to "re-frame" the argument by establishing that the only rules worthy to govern the game are "your" rules. That's not only presumptuous, it's insulting."

Oh God, there you go again, projecting your own stuff onto everyone else. The fault is not in the stars dear Brutus...


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Richard Herd
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 5:47:14 pm

"Aye, the power of beauty will sooner transform honesty from what it is to a bawd than the force of honesty can translate beauty into its likeness. This is sometime a paradox. But the time gives it proof."

Shakespeare is awesome because he covers everything -- apparently, even video editing software!


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Scott Sheriff
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 9:30:44 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Without naming names, I've noticed the increasingly pervasive use of analogies as tools of argument here.

I did a quick search and this was the best link I could find outlining the many pitfalls of analogy and why it has the reputation for being "the weakest form of argument".

http://arstechnica.com/business/problem-solving/2010/11/part-3-analogies-in.....

(Gratuitous Apple / car analogy included for illustration purposes.)

Offending parties, please brush up on your argument skills"


Talk about brushing up on your argument skills. This is so weak.
I don't even know why you would post this, other than to be a snob, or you are trolling us.
I don't have any problem with analogies, or metaphors. I don't mind reading them, and I find them useful at times. The Cows is mostly inhabited by folks that think in pictures, not words, which is completely different than forums where writers hang out like the Celtx or Final Draft. And they are useful on a forum where there are many reading what is written in a second language, and may not be familiar with bits of local slang.
And sometimes when using them, it can give you a new perspective on what you are talking about.

However, I do have a problem with people that don't get to the point, or make me chase around following links.
First, unless you are someone well know on the boards, I'm not going to your link for security reasons.
Second, if you don't have the time to post what you have to say, then I guess I don't have the time to go read it. My time is at least as valuable as yours.
Both of the above points apply equally to videos, pics, text, etc. Either paste it, embedded it, or upload the relevant content to the Cows. And I mean relevant. I don't want to watch five minutes of your favorite band video just to see some overused FX you're curious about, nor do I want to read pages of text just to find the one paragraph you're referencing.

Offending parties please brush up on your posting etiquette.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Herb Sevush
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 10:00:06 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "unless you are someone well know on the boards, I'm not going to your link for security reasons."

Scott I think you are way out of line here. Franz is a great asset and highly respected contributor to this forum. His post was, I believe, a little tongue in cheek. We all get a little crazy with analogies here, no one more so than me, and it can get fairly silly. I have no intentions of changing my analogus way of thinking, but his link was enlightening and well worth reading if you have an interest in either logic or rhetoric.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Scott Sheriff
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 11:23:19 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Scott I think you are way out of line here. Franz is a great asset and highly respected contributor to this forum."

Way out of line? LOL I grew up in the 80's. Remember the MTV slogan, "Too much, is never enough". I guess if I'm only way out of line, I must be falling asleep on the job!
I'm not accusing anybody, of anything. I'm just saying that my rule of thumb is to not get rick-rolled following blind links posted by people I don't recognize. I'm sure I'm not the only one. You may recognize Franz, but I don't have a clue who he is, nothin' personal.
For the most part, the majority of the legitimate, but blind links on the Cows turn out to be real time wasters because the poster just didn't want to spend the extra 30 seconds, but expects everyone else reading the post to do so. And I have seen plenty of posts that are nothing more than an attempt to drive traffic to a site. Have you not seen this a lot on the Cows?
For example if Franz could have either quoted an interesting paragraph from the article, followed by the link. Alternatively, how about this; "Here's an interesting, but off topic article on ___" followed by the link.

[Herb Sevush] "His post was, I believe, a little tongue in cheek."
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I guess that vibe was a little too subtle for me to pick up on.
How it came across to me is, "There is too much analogy, that is inacurate on the board for my taste, and here is a 1500 word article you need to read that reinforces my point." Just sayin'...I prefer when people reinforce their arguments with their own words.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 3, 2012 at 6:18:22 am

[Scott Sheriff] "I'm not accusing anybody, of anything. I'm just saying that my rule of thumb is to not get rick-rolled following blind links posted by people I don't recognize. I'm sure I'm not the only one. You may recognize Franz, but I don't have a clue who he is, nothin' personal."

How is it a blind link? The URL clearly says "Arstechnica" (which is one of the biggest tech sites around) and if you hover over the link it will show you the destination URL at the bottom of your browser.

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Michael Gissing
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 1, 2012 at 11:49:39 pm

Monty Python 5 minute argument anyone? While we are on the philosophy of writing I would like to share the lyric of a song, sung by my friend Bruce Watson -

Now when I was a boy one was taught English Grammar
These days standards have gone down the drain
We had it banged into us, with an unsubtle hammer
And it's firmly lodged into my brain
There's a million mistakes that you see people make
Now and then there's an absolute whopper
So here's a few tips to avoid obvious slips
To help you all write and speak proper:

Be sure to never split an infinitive
Don't use no double negatives
And never generalise, that's a rule you see everyone break!
Be clear as a bell, profread everythnig well
Be more or less specific, don't be vague
And (last but not least) avoid clich├ęs like the plague

It's incumbent upon us to eschew obfuscation
And where feasible to employ the vernacular
Never use a big word when a diminutive one would suffice
And understatement is absolutely spectacular!
Use language that's inclusive of all men
And here's something else you should know
The use of foreign words is not 'de rigeur'
Nor is it apropos

{chorus}

Always avoid awkward annoying
Unattractive affected alliteration
Avoidification of George Bushian neologisms
Will strengthenify your prosification
If you see a mixed metaphor, take the bull by the horns
And knock it right off it's perch
And vary your words variously
So that you use various words

{chorus}

Exaggeration is a trillion zillion times worse
Than just stating the plain simple facts
And use words correctly, irregardless of what others do
To show you've got the language knack
The passive voice should always be avoided
Heed should be taken of that suggestion
And what I now ask of all of you is:
"Who needs a rhetorical question?"

{chorus}


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Chris Harlan
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 1:05:56 am

Haalloo Bruce! Oh, Rene Descarte was a drunken.....





......I drink, therefore I am.


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Gary Slickman
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 6:06:14 am

So I quite literally comprehend
That if I were to further append;
This thread with clever analogy
My conclusions would be considered fallacy.

And though seemignly well endowed
By the analogies through which I plowed
Some of which are forever enduring
But played out in film would be quite boring.

I'll be sure now to add a new meta tag
And clearly mark this thread a forum drag.



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Chris Harlan
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 6:35:13 am

There once was a poet sublime
Who critiqued this thread as a crime.
He feared we'd an allergy
To any kind of analogy
And so, lambasted us all in rhyme.


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Andy Neil
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 8:24:29 am

[Michael Gissing] "Be sure to never split an infinitive
Don't use no double negatives
And never generalise, that's a rule you see everyone break..."


As a word-nerd, Michael, I found your post highly entertaining. Cracked me up good.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Richard Herd
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 5:44:45 pm

Please post the youtube video of this guy singing this song!


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Michael Gissing
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 6:36:06 pm

No video but here's Bruce singing from his Myspace page.

http://www.myspace.com/brucewatsonmusic/music/songs/the-rules-of-english-68...


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Chris Harlan
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 6:57:52 pm

[Michael Gissing] "No video but here's Bruce singing from his Myspace page.

http://www.myspace.com/brucewatsonmusic/music/songs/the-rules-of-english-68.....

"


That is staggeringly terrific! Do you know how I can get a copy of his album here in the states?


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Michael Gissing
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 2, 2012 at 7:15:56 pm

Bruce's CDs can be bought or downloaded directly from his website. He is comedic and eco political in style. Tell him where you got the contact from -

http://brucewatsonmusic.com/

Found a video version -







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Greg Andonian
Re: This is not like that.
on Mar 5, 2012 at 6:48:02 am

There's nothing wrong with analogies. Sometimes they're a very good way to get a point across more clearly.

Just because one person doesn't like them, shouldn't mean that others have to stop using them.

That's like telling someone not to buy a truck from Ford simply because you prefer Chevy. ;)

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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