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Why all the hate?

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Adam McCune
Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:06:08 pm

I've stood back, quietly using this forum and website as a source of great information. The level of knowledge on here astounds me, and I've found it to be an infinitely useful resource.

Today, Final Cut Pro X came out. I see this as a revolutionary product, yet there seems to be a lot - A LOT of hate directed at this. I ask why...why? It has made me finally register as a user to say this:

There is a lot of fear running through the pro ranks right now, and I finally see why.

I'm a Public Access cable employee. We teach Final Cut Pro at our facility, and use it frequently, almost exclusively on staff. The changes made to this software are an absolute revelation to someone like me.

This software (FCPx) has a pro-level list of features, but it's interface is obviously easier to use. Some of you have said it is "dumbed-down" or "iMovie Pro" that's just silly. If you really feel that way, it seems to me you are really just afraid that the average joe-schmoe is going to be able to create fantastic videos. Is that it? It is, isn't it?

Sure, I'll miss multi-cam, but I have a hunch it will reappear. Besides, I'm not erasing FCP from my hard drive. It will still get occasional use. There may, in fact be a few other legit beefs, but the bottom line is this; a pro-level product just became a better overall product for 1/3 the price.

Creativity can't be taught, it can only be encouraged and allowed to flourish. If those tools to allow this encouragement just became more accessible because of price and ease of use, then why not be happy?

Love Avid. Love Premier. Love Sony Vegas. Love Pinnacle if you want, they are great tools, with different sets of users in mind...but just leave the hatred alone, it isn't cool, and it makes you look silly.

- Adam


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John Davidson
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:23:41 pm

Specifically, people hate change and they hate learning. They just found out they have to do both today. Nobody remembers that FCP7 didn't get AJA drivers for 2 weeks after it launched. Heck, Zaxwerks Invig just last month started working with CS5 - right around the time 5.5 came out! If your whole business is based off FCPX OMF exports on day one, please go buy Automatic Duck. It's available today.

I have been playing with the new FCPX for 2 hours without a crash or even a restart after install. Whatever that's worth...

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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David Burch
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 6:01:19 pm

Personally, I like change and I love lerning. What I don't like is not being able to get my projects done because of major, glaring lack of features. Specifically, no multiclip, no XML support, and not output to tape. How, exactly, do you propose I send my project to Logic for surround mastering? How do I output to Betacam for the broadcast houses that need it? (yes, it is still the standard in m any places). How do you propose I edit a 2 hour+ show with three cameras without multiclip?

It's precisely because I like some of the new features in FCP X that I am pissed. 64 bit support, color synching, magnetic timelines, sample-accurate audio handling, the new file management...all awesome features that would dramatically improve my editing workflow. All useless for 95% of what I do because basic things are missing.


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John Davidson
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 6:09:52 pm

And you're totally right, those things should be included. That said, we always archive a quicktime file, to to lay back to tape I'd just open fcp7 and work it out like that. OMF export - well, I'll bite the bullet and get Automatic Duck and try that (we have an older version of it, so the upgrade cost of 195 isn't so bad). The multi camera support - yeah, that's annoying. For our business, we pretty much never used multicamera, so it's not the end of the world. I would suspect a great deal of these issues will be resolved in an update, so we are going to play with this for now and learn it's tricks. There's a whole lotta cool stuff in here that I really like. The waveform monitor is a really cool. I love the effects layout now, too.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Adam McCune
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 6:14:00 pm

I'm posting the start of this thread with the full knowledge that some pieces are glaring omissions from our day-to-day operations.

We output EVERYTHING to tape. Well, time to upgrade, I guess. We've been talking about an entirely tapeless workflow for two years, so this is our proper nudge.

Multi-cam - we use it extensively. It's a necessity for our operation, but I venture to guess 90% of FCP users never even use it. So, I guess concerts and multicamera shoots will have to be edited in FCP7.

Sometimes, these problems solve themselves.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:25:38 pm

This release is creating a lot of uncertainty. Features that many workflows rely on are missing from FCPX, with no release schedule and no workarounds.

FCPX has a great foundation for future development, and if it works well in your specific workflow, then good for you! There's a lot of power under the hood, and with any luck, it will make your work easier.

However, for those workflows which rely on features like tape, or OMF/EDL/XML interchange with other applications, this current release is simply unworkable. No one is used to software development going backwards, and for many, that's what this feels like.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Adam McCune
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:35:22 pm

All of that is legit, and based in a factual, well-founded fear...I just don't understand how some are going from that to disavowing Apple all together. We all need to calm down. I'm sure the later releases will take care of many of the issues, like opening in the timeline...In the end, I think (see also: hope) we will all be better off.


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David Burch
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 7:57:39 pm

When you're making critical business decisions regarding the future of your company, things like this can be more than enough to make people jump ship and go with an entirely different platform. We need to know that Apple hasn't abandoned certain features altogether, and if they haven't how long we can expect to wait before they come back. It can mean the difference of thousands of dollars in investments. For instance, FCP was the entire reason our company invested in Apple products to begin with. Were it not for this, we would easily have gone down PC path and invested in Premiere or Avid. Today we have many thousands of dollars invested in multiple mac platforms, an AJA Kona LHe, Logic Studio, and multiple licenses of FCS3, as well as the mac versions of Adobe Creative Suite and Office.

Having so much invested in Mac means that I want desperately to be able to continue using Final Cut as our editing software. However, if these key issues are not addressed in a timely manner and I'm forced to continue using FCP7 indefinitely, this creates a HUGE problem for the future.

We are a relatively small company. The decision to stay with Apple or not is a huge one for us, but it is even bigger for larger companies with not thousands but hundreds of thousands or even millions to lose if the wrong decision is made. It really is a big deal.


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Adam McCune
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 7:58:54 pm

Big Deal? Yes. Worthy of loathing and seething over it on an online forum all day? No.

Edit some fricken' videos!


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Lou Borella
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 8:02:57 pm

OK Dave - Valid point.
But at what point did your company decide to jump in the FCP water with that big purchase?
Was it version 1.
When there was no hardware support?
Way before there was even a suite of applications?
Way before Logic existed?

I highly doubt you jumped in THAT early and if you did it wasn't whole hog.

Look at your capabilities now. Your patience paid off. Especially because if you went with an AVID solution your investment would have been 10 fold in software alone if you count the maintenance fees.
And Adobe's pricing leaves much to be desired as well.



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Eric Jurgenson
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:30:52 pm

FCP-X is perfect for you!



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Chris Walsh
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:35:02 pm

"Hate" seems a little strong. Disappointment and frustration? Yes.

The frustration with the release of an app with a "Pro" label that doesn't meet many basic needs and requests of the "Pro" market. It suggests that Apple doesn't understand what features are important, and that they don't care to hear it. It confirms fears and rumors, and seeds doubt about future releases. It brings back echoes of similar past cycles with Avid, Adobe, Media 100, Discreet, etc. If they really have pulled FCS on top of this release, then they are going all in.

No one had to have FCP X today. Apple could have polished it a little further or tested, and I'm guessing they would have if these updates were mere weeks away.

I don't really care one way or the other. FCS meets 90% of my needs today, and if I have some free time and money, maybe I'll try FCP X. More likely, I'll wait for a release that is more polished out of the box.

Apple just burned through some of trust and goodwill it had built over FC 1-7, for no apparent reason.

Chris Walsh

http://www.musicfog.com
Silver Spring, MD
Final Cut & AVID MC5
Former Windows User and edit* lover


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Walter Soyka
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:42:07 pm

[Chris Walsh] "It brings back echoes of similar past cycles with Avid, Adobe, Media 100, Discreet, etc... Apple just burned through some of trust and goodwill it had built over FC 1-7, for no apparent reason."

Very, very well said!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:36:43 pm

[Adam McCune] "just leave the hatred alone, it isn't cool, and it makes you look silly."

Exactly. And FCP 7 still works, so what's the big deal?

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!


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Walter Soyka
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:51:16 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "And FCP 7 still works, so what's the big deal?"

Running a business based on discontinued software puts the owner in a bit of a tenuous position.

Other applications will require OS or hardware updates. Sooner or later, one of these updates will break compatibility with FCP7.

Relying on FCP7 for the long term will require keeping lots of duct tape and baling wire on hand, or giving up the benefits of multiple applications on a single desk, or building convoluted workarounds for new workflows which are natively supported on newer platforms. Ask an Avid Meridien owner.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Lou Borella
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 6:08:30 pm

You have no idea what "long-term" is.
It can't be defined.
If you really think that this piece of software will not evolve by Apple and the help of 3rd party developers then you haven't been paying attention.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 6:27:50 pm

[Lou Borella] "You have no idea what "long-term" is. It can't be defined. If you really think that this piece of software will not evolve by Apple and the help of 3rd party developers then you haven't been paying attention."

I'm not arguing with you there. Read my other posts here. I have stated several times that I do believe that FCPX is a great foundation for the future, and that its feature set will grow in time. I'm paying a lot of attention -- to Adobe and Avid, as well as to Apple -- and I believe that all these packages will evolve, and that they will evolve faster than they have in the past.

But as of today, Final Cut Studio (FCP7) is no longer available at the Apple store. FCPX is your only choice for new installations from Apple today, and there are many, many workflows that FCPX is not ready for yet. There is no timetable for the addition of any of the big "missing" features -- or a guarantee that there will be one.

Apple's track record on progress is mixed -- for every amazing new technology, full of promise, that they release, there's another amazing, cancelled technology. Consider Shake and Color -- both major applications that were bought, briefly maintained but not seriously updated, and then killed without warning. Consider the XServe and Final Cut Server -- both now discontinued with no warning and no roadmap for customers who built their businesses around them.

Apple has handled some transitions very well. The PPC to Intel switch was really well-managed, especially when you consider its complexity. The OS 9 to OS X switch was not. OS X wasn't really usable until 10.2.

FCP7 to FCPX seems to be one of the transitions that Apple is not handling well.

It's perfectly reasonable to be wary.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 6:09:23 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Running a business based on discontinued software puts the owner in a bit of a tenuous position.

Other applications will require OS or hardware updates. Sooner or later, one of these updates will break compatibility with FCP7.

Relying on FCP7 for the long term will require keeping lots of duct tape and baling wire on hand, or giving up the benefits of multiple applications on a single desk, or building convoluted workarounds for new workflows which are natively supported on newer platforms. Ask an Avid Meridien owner."


I can see your point... to a degree, but I think I could easily get a couple more years out of FCP 7. I ran FCP 5 on Tiger for well over 3 years and only upgraded because I wanted, not needed, some features. I'm no Hollywood post house, though... perhaps I'm just less demanding than everyone else.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!


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Matt Callac
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 6:33:28 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "
I can see your point... to a degree, but I think I could easily get a couple more years out of FCP 7. I ran FCP 5 on Tiger for well over 3 years and only upgraded because I wanted, not needed, some features. I'm no Hollywood post house, though... perhaps I'm just less demanding than everyone else."


I totally agree with you...but only up to a point. While FCP 7 will work for years to come, it'll only work in certain capacities. Sooner or later your clients will start shooting more and more on tapeless workflows, and If they are shooting AVCHD or h.264, you're going to get tired of the hassle of transcoding to ProRes. So yes It will work for years to come until your workflow has to shift due to your client's needs.

-mattyc


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Erik Speer
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 7:48:04 pm

And we were about to expand our business by 10 edit suites and were planning on installing X in all new suites and upgrading the rest. What to do with the 10 new suites? Can't buy 7 anymore, can't use X for shows that need to go to broadcast facilities. eBay I guess.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:39:59 pm

[Adam McCune] "If you really feel that way, it seems to me you are really just afraid that the average joe-schmoe is going to be able to create fantastic videos. Is that it? It is, isn't it? "

BS. Average joe-schmoe has been working in FCP without external monitor since version one. FCPX lack of external monitor support doesn't give him anything he didn't have before. But it takes a lot from me.


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Dean Sensui
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 7:23:01 pm

"Sure, I'll miss multi-cam, but I have a hunch it will reappear"

No multicam editing???

Dean Sensui -- Hawaii Goes Fishing


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Dave Macomber
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 7:54:45 pm

There's a lot of "The sky is falling!" going on, to be sure.

For what it's worth, here's my perspective:

My workflow involves the use of XML. That being the case, FCPX is not a tool that I can use for the vast majority of what I do -- now. Thankfully, FCP7 is on my system, and will continue to be the workhorse for what I do.

I have iMovie on my system. I use it rarely, and generally not for work. But it's there.

Now I have FPSX on here, too. I doubt I'll use it for much that's serious -- but I'm going to play with it a bunch, and I'm going to learn the interface. I'm going to get comfortable. And when XML arrives (and I'm fairly certain it will -- at least that appears to be the case), I'll be good to go. If it takes a month, great. I'll have had a month to get up to speed and start doing my serious work seriously (if it was here now, I'd be fumbling around, trying to get work done, but learning as I go, which is less than optimal).

The way I figure it, I can look at this in one of two ways: this is really a kind of public pre-release, I've bought the program for a nominal amount of money, and I'm getting the opportunity to fart around until such time as the rest of the feature set that I anticipate is coming arrives -- or two, the feature set never arrives, and I've invested a nominal amount of money into something that will replace iMovie for me and the things I use it for. I'll stick with FCP7 until such time as I decide that another platform is superior, and I'll move over.

Either way, it's not the end of the world for me. My work is going to get done. I'll learn some new stuff. And the sky will not fall.

Easy.


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Peter Krajcik
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 8:08:52 pm

Hi,

I would like to add my comment as an Apple Expert Solution provider, so my opinion is from other side (I mean not end user's side).
That's really fine that Apple finally moved on with Final Cut. Yes, it is an evolution (in context of what Lion and all other related pieces of puzzle could do).
But my hate as a reseller is because of total Apple ignorance of partners and customers.
We were working on couple of projects where FCS or FCServer were a key parts of infrastructre. Big projects with 10s of seats and lot of other technology related to broadcasting and designed to work with traditional workflow. We knew there will be new FCPX, but nobody expected it won't be replacement for FCP. No body expected that Apple wil not notify partners they will discontinue FCP or FCServer. They just made a radical cut in place where they shouldn't. if big customers realize that there is no stable future with Apple, they will go with Avid or Premiere. Ok, that's business, but we have evangelized Final Cut, we made trainings for our customers, we made support, we convinced them to switch from Avid to FCP. No Apple representative came and made a deal. And now we simply can't sell FCPX to customers because of App Store.
You can argument that you don't need a middle man, but there is a lot of customers who simply need a service company to install and service things. I am not talking about small studios - I am talking about public TVs or big production houses. Apple has no business model how to manage this thing.
Yes, it will be colder tomorrow, but I simply hate this ignorancy.

Peter



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Lou Borella
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 8:15:10 pm

Peter
The writing was on the wall at least 4 years ago when it cam to FCServer and Xsan.
Apple decided it didn't want to compete with the AVID Unity installs and focused on iOS and moblie hardware. No needed to tell me that.

Your customers sill have functioning installations I'm sure. They can probably still get 3-5 more years out of them easily. At that point the landscape will be more clearly defined and they will have to make a decision.



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Peter Krajcik
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 8:32:25 pm

Lou,

as it might be complicated for end user of FCP to switch to other platform, it is much more complicated for reseller to turn 180 degress and market Adobe or Avid. In enterprise business you simply can't tell to customer: choose Avid, Adobe or Apple NLE and if they chose FCP, you come one day and tell them: ok, now we sell Avid so switch to Avid. They trust to you that you will pick a right product and make their investment safe. Yes, Apple can't compete with Avid in broadcast, but they easily could in NLEs.
Pro market was one of the reasons why Apple survived when its market share was very low.

Will they do the same with QuickTime ?
I personally think that new QuickTime (or what will be the name of new version of product) is the main reason why basic ingest/output functions are not present in FCP X. QTKit is a toy, QuickTime framework is very, very old.

Peter



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Lou Borella
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 8:44:30 pm

But think of it this way.
If one of your customers say 5 years ago invested X.XX amount in FCP workstations and shared media hardware - what would that cost have been if they would have done the equivalent AVID install?
I know the AVID solution would have easily be twice as high if not more. The service licenses alone would have cost a fortune. Which is probably one of the main factors why you pushed the Apple solution and probably a large factor in your customers decisions. The Adobe solution is a more comparable price point but their upgrade pricing is a joke. You also would have had media sharing issues over multiple workstations with Premier because its not set up for that kind of environment.

Take pride in knowing that you sold them the best product (because AVID editing solutions truly suck at this point in time) at the best price point and that your installs are still a functioning entity and will be for a few more years. Those installations will not owe your customers anything when it comes time to upgrade.

Also know that some developer will step up to the plate with a solution a void with a complementary product that Apple doesn't offer. Such as networked storage and media solutions.

FCPX is 8 hours old at this point. Have a little patience.



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Peter Krajcik
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 9:06:41 pm

Hi,

it seems to be complicated to explain you this matters - it looks you're Pro not reseller.
It doesn't matter if we sold them anything 5 years ago and know they should be happy because we saved them a lot fo money. They went with Apple, they trained people, they invested to Apple products (ok.less than to Avid but thats not a point). Now they need to buy 50 seats of FCS. Most of them needs ingest tapes and output to the tape. I simply can't tell them with a smile sorry guys, Apple changed its mind and you should look around and shop for Avid or Adobe if you want to do things you did before.
Apple thinks you don't need ingest and output to tape and you shouldn't shot on multicamera because according to Apple it is old way of doing music video.
Well it is over guys. May I offer you Avid ? Yes, you can be pretty sure nothing similar happens to Avid in next 5 years. Believe to Avid.



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Daniel Frome
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 8:43:12 pm

The "hate" is actually a pretty reasonable reaction considering that this is a professional forum and many people have a lot riding on features that FCPX has omitted. I won't bore you with a list of them because all the responses here are rife with answers.

It's a great and powerful editor with a lot of missing features that we've come to rely on.


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Adam McCune
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 9:04:46 pm

Hate is never a reasonable reaction, I think that is my underlying point.


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 21, 2011 at 8:47:17 pm

[Adam McCune] " A LOT of hate directed at this. I ask why...why? It has made me finally register as a user to say this: There is a lot of fear running through the pro ranks right now, and I finally see why."


It's unnatural to embrace the different, the strange, the unknown. If the Wright brothers had this attitude, we'd still be taking ships across the Atlantic. If Eric the Red had this attitude, there'd have been no Icelandic banking crisis because there'd be no people living there. If Marco Polo had this attitude, there's be no lasagna. If Thomas Edison had this attitude, we'd still be using candles and gaslights at night.

Progress can be painful, it can be disruptive. It can also be transformative. Look at the internet. Sure, there's a lot of risk of computer virii and identity theft, but it's transformed travel, shopping, banking and even the Mideast. Computers have transformed the film & video industries.

Advances in software and hardware have raised the bar of what we can do, and lowered the bar of who thinks they can do it. At the end of the day, though, it's still up to us to get the work done.

FCP-X is just another video editing program. But it's different. Very different. As an editor, I'm excited. It's a new way to work at telling stories. It doesn't do everything I need today, but someday it might. And even if it doesn't, there are other programs that do. And I expect those other programs to look a lot like FCP-X in a couple of years.

Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Keith Hill
Re: Why all the hate?
on Jun 22, 2011 at 5:04:59 am

I love this new version and all that it means going forward. They have to catch up the development no doubt. But this version puts it right in the mix ultimately with Smoke when the dust settles down the road. I mean down the road a bit but not far. Being able to do everything in one application like this is way better than roundtripping. And, if Soundtrack Pro and Color are built into then it's game on.

I love the fact that Apple was slick in that they it introduced the new this new design. They know this was going to be the new FCP design all along but they used iMovie to introduce the thought. And, for everyone to look at it as though this is the iMovie design is so funny it's rediculous. This is such a major marketing and business development move it's unreal. When they introduced the new iMovie back then, I could tell this is where things were going and they used that app to float the balloon and it worked. No one complained and they learned some things in the process. Now it's all out in the open and iMovie replaces FC Express and FCP X is out in the open with the new design. I don't see anything wrong with that move.

As long as they get with the program of working with the 3rd Parties to catch them up and bring the rest of the things black into mix asap like multicam and so-on, this will keep me from unnecessarily moving on something like Smoke (but it is a great finishing tool) which is still too expensive on the Mac.

Keith Hill
Founder
Uptown Jazz Dallas International Jazz Festival
http://www.UptownJazzDallas.com


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