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Oliver Peters
Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 2:58:06 am

"Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" Best editing Oscar to Angus Wall and Kirk Baxter. That's two-in-a-row for FCP "legacy". Hmm......

Oliver


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 3:06:44 am

I always thought the award is for best editing and NOT for best software?

Must have got that wrong all those years....


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John Pale
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 3:09:12 am

Did kem, steenbeck and moviola keep score?

I would guess they still have a big lead.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 3:10:33 am

Of course it does. But editors have a say in the NLE they choose and that benefits the company and attracts future users. Too bad Apple decided to poke a finger in the eye of film editors.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 4:37:38 am

[Oliver Peters] "Too bad Apple decided to poke a finger in the eye of film editors."

It's too bad for Apple and too bad for editors at every level.

Also, it's too bad FCP didn't get mentioned in the In Memorium section of the Oscars - I would have cried again this year.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 2:31:30 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "it's too bad FCP didn't get mentioned in the In Memorium section of the Oscars"

great line - and why not, everyone else was, including some guy from marketing. The memorium segment is getting as bloated as modern film credits. Jane Russel and Farley Granger didn't get anything more than a mention so they could list some guy in marketing - what next, every dead auditor who ever worked on a film budget, every teamster who ever ate a doughnut on a set?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bob Cole
Re: Oscar irony
on Mar 1, 2012 at 12:42:52 am

[Herb Sevush] "every teamster who ever ate a doughnut on a set?"

Alright Herb, very funny, but I resent this unnecessary slur against doughnuts.

bob c


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Bill Davis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:30:02 am

FCP was introduced in April of 1999 at NAB.

IIRC, Walter Murch's Cold Mountain was cut in 2003 on FCP Legacy and IMDB notes that as the first oscar nomination where the "sub-$1000 FCP was used.

So that would indicate that it took at least 4 solid years of development IN APPLE (discounting the work done by the Macromedia team on KeyGrip before Ubillos and the team took it to Apple) before the software developed into something "Oscar level work worthy."

No telling if X will ever again develop in the "big movie" direction - since that's such a niche part of the overall industry of editing visuals today.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Lawrence
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:03:32 am

[Bill Davis] "No telling if X will ever again develop in the "big movie" direction - since that's such a niche part of the overall industry of editing visuals today."

Maybe it's a niche but it's a niche comprised of the best of the best in the industry. Oscars make for excellent ad copy last I checked. Guess Apple plans to make up for the loss of prestige users with volume.

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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Bill Davis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 7:17:45 pm

[David Lawrence] "Maybe it's a niche but it's a niche comprised of the best of the best in the industry. Oscars make for excellent ad copy last I checked. Guess Apple plans to make up for the loss of prestige users with volume."

David,

The problem is that "prestige" is a funny thing. Hard to get, easy to lose.

I produced spots for a big local Cadillac dealer back 15 year ago - when those cars were pretty mediocre.

The brand that was once clearly the "leader" had become significantly less than stellar. They didn't keep up with the technology, the times, or their customers wants and desires.

Apple, more than any other contemporary company seems to take the long view and are willing to create software for a new era they see coming - instead of just "tweaking" the approaches of the past.

If, in fact, the greatest need in editing is for "big shop collaborative work" or even if everyone in the smaller shops wants to pay more just to have the "prestige" of using what Angus Wall uses to edit Hollywood movies, then Apple's betting wrong.

If the FCP-X engineering team has actually looked down the road and are correct that people want new tools for a new era of editing and content distribution - more web centric and less "movie screen" centric - then they will win.

I've made my bet on who's correct in their view of where editing is generally heading.

Time will tell who's got a better vision of the future.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:10:44 am

[Bill Davis] "No telling if X will ever again develop in the "big movie" direction - since that's such a niche part of the overall industry of editing visuals today."

Apple would obviously rather sell to millions of people just like you Bill, and it looks like they'll probably get their wish.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 12:47:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "So that would indicate that it took at least 4 solid years of development IN APPLE (discounting the work done by the Macromedia team on KeyGrip before Ubillos and the team took it to Apple) before the software developed into something "Oscar level work worthy." "

I'm sure at some point, someone will cut an Oscar-winning film on X, but timescales have shrunk for development just as they have for editors. You cannot use the same 4-year yardstick in 2012. It's also not a matter of adding features back in as development progresses, but rather that Apple deliberately removed functions that affect how feature film editors work. I know X may not fit that niche - in which case Apple has factored that into the numbers and is comfortable with it. That makes it ironic, because after finally going many years without an Oscar win in this category, they've decided to move away from it, even though feature film editors served them well when they needed the PR value.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:44:32 pm

Yeah my favorite area on the Apple site was always the FCP Studio pages. Made you feel good knowing legends like Coppola, Murch and Fincher were using the same low cost software on their big budget shows. Sad there's only a staged Audi spot where all that great testimonial stuff used to be... an Oscar on each side of the logo would have looked cool...

So in theory, Apple should be back at the Oscars around 2021. Thanks, for the memories...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 11:25:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "So that would indicate that it took at least 4 solid years of development IN APPLE (discounting the work done by the Macromedia team on KeyGrip before Ubillos and the team took it to Apple) before the software developed into something "Oscar level work worthy.""

Are we talking the features or the clout? 'Cause regarding features FCP had the minimum required to cut a 35 mm project as soon as version 1.2.5 and was used to do it.


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Richard Herd
Re: Oscar irony
on Mar 2, 2012 at 6:10:16 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But editors have a say in the NLE they choose"

Not sure that's really the case. Mark R for example made the decision for his entire team. I'm confident he made the correct decision, of course.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 29, 2012 at 7:14:00 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "I always thought the award is for best editing and NOT for best software?

Must have got that wrong all those years...."


Are you trying to say that this years best editor didn't use what they considered to be the best tool for the job?
Or are you saying this years best editor doesn't know what the best tool for the job is?

Either way, talk about grasping for straws...

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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jon smitherton
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 4:52:53 am

Funny, I think the irony is that the film has been edited before...and was perfected fine.

Jon



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Chris Conlee
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 1:21:14 am

[jon smitherton] "Funny, I think the irony is that the film has been edited before...and was perfectly fine."

Me too. I have no idea why they made this movie again. Irritating.

Chris


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Shane Ross
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:35:18 am

This is one thing I just don't get. Doesn't matter what tool was used to make the film. They don't say "man, that Craftsman Wrench was behind the Ford F150 winning the JD Power and Associates award for 2012..."

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:06:19 am

q[Shane Ross] "This is one thing I just don't get. Doesn't matter what tool was used to make the film. They don't say "man, that Craftsman Wrench was behind the Ford F150 winning the JD Power and Associates award for 2012..."
"


Sure it does, because now the tool those guys used to win two years in row has been "end of lifed" by its developers, and that's is ironic, just as Oliver said.

Why is it ironic? Because it's very hard to win an Academy Award for Best Editing two years running - and the guys that won chose to edit on a NLE they obviously liked and found extremely useful, but which Apple has decided to kill for some unknown reason in spite of the fact that it was extremely well-liked by many thousands of editors, including some of the very best in the world.

That my friends is ironic, and Oliver was right on target by identifying it as such.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Mark Morache
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:49:50 am

I'm with Bill. Let's discuss this in 3-4 years, which would be 2.5 compared with 1999 years.

I wonder if the 443 hours of footage for The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo might have benefited from the tagging power of X?

I'm sure someone is already working on tools for using XML to conform the final print for editing features on FCPX.

I've seen how Walter Murch assembles photos on his wall representing shots in his bins. I'll bet someone could even create an app to integrate with X that will automatically give Walter his images, let him select the representative frames, and then let him flip through them on his ipad. And the app will be $10.

I think the sky's the limit, and I'm excited to what's next.

It'll be interesting to see how much editors like Baxter and Wall will continue to work with Final Cut Pro 7, even though it's eol'd.

---------
Don't live your life in a secondary storyline.

Mark Morache
FCPX/FCP7/Xpri/Avid
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Geoff Addis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 10:15:03 am

Surely the award is to recognise the skill of the editor, not the tool set!

Geoff


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Walter Soyka
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 11:16:00 am

[Mark Morache] "Let's discuss this in 3-4 years, which would be 2.5 compared with 1999 years."

It's just a question of frame of reference.

While FCPX is less than a year old, Apple has been in the NLE market for 13 years. While some say it's unreasonable to expect too much from a new product, others reasonably ask why we should lower our expectations of a leading developer with over a decade's experience in the market.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Miłosz Koziol
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 11:34:44 am

Well - I`m all for simplicity and ease of usage - I find none of that in FCPX (I`m toying wiht trial 10.3. right now). Final Cut pro is fading away from professional film studios, at least in my country.Personally, I`m so glad that I made a switch to AVID thanks to its cross grade sale. And if FCPX will develop - that`s good for a competition and I`m planning to include that in my company computer - I think it might be great for short DSLR jobs.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 12:15:46 pm

[Walter Soyka] "While FCPX is less than a year old, Apple has been in the NLE market for 13 years. While some say it's unreasonable to expect too much from a new product, others reasonably ask why we should lower our expectations of a leading developer with over a decade's experience in the market."

Totally agree. I never understood the argument that it's a 1.0 release and it took years for classic FCP to mature. If a new car model comes out nobody compares it with the first model from 15 years ago but with the one the came before it. And that applies to all aspects of life, it should also be valid for software. Certainly when its intended for usage in an environment where people make money with it and deadlines are tight.
Also, frankly, as a paying customer, I don't care wether its a rewrite or a 1.0 or whatever. It has to work and do what it is supposed to do.
The missing features is one thing, the sluggishness and stability issues are a different story altogether.
It may be great for lots of people in its current state, it isn't for many others. Given the general noise and feedback one has to wonder wether it was worth all that. After all, it's not exactly as if Apple needs money so badly they had to go for an early launch, or as if FCPX was a missing link in their soft- and hardware portfolio that made things come together. If anything, it was the opposite. So... WHY?
Most of this has nothing to do with magnetic TL vs. tracks etc. etc.; all that would have been debatable in an entirely different context if the launch/transition had been handled in a reasonable/timely manner.
Keep classic on sale, anounce X as a beta, give people a roadmap, communicate and listen.
If that's not Apple's way of doing things, well.. then up yours Cupertino.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:05:49 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Totally agree. I never understood the argument that it's a 1.0 release and it took years for classic FCP to mature. If a new car model comes out nobody compares it with the first model from 15 years ago but with the one the came before it."

Really! Right? It took the Model T how many years to get turn indicators? It took cars how many years to get airbags? The notion that you can introduce a new car without either of these items and expect them to grow in later is ludicrous. This whole 1.0 argument seems to stem from nervous Sales talk at the time of NAB to folks like Larry Jordan who were nervous about what they were seeing. Its never been anything more than an excuse.


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Bill Davis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:11:23 pm

But Walter.

If its true that the very first decision was to "zero out" the existing code base and write on an entirely new foundation - re-examining every design and implementation decision in light of where the hardware, software, and even the market has evolved - then it has to be fair to allow the same amount of time for this code base to evolve and stabilize that all other programs have needed to mature.

This constant need to compare X to Legacy and lament the change (talking of others here, not you.) is understandable - but getting old.

Those who can't live with the change need to move on. Premier has their switch discount in place again. Avid remains a safe and fully developed choice.

I'm simply saying that after this long, those remaining fixated on what Legacy "used to be" are in danger of getting stuck in the past. Someone experiences an unwanted divorce and yes, grief is natural and accepted. Maintaining the shrine in the back bedroom and visiting it daily - once inevitability is fully established - is a sign one is having trouble moving on.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:37:57 pm

[Bill Davis] "Someone experiences an unwanted divorce and yes, grief is natural and accepted. Maintaining the shrine in the back bedroom and visiting it daily - once inevitability is fully established - is a sign one is having trouble moving on."

On the other hand, even 5 years later, a couple of beers might provoke a line like this -

Woody Allen claimed he read that his ex-wife had been sexually assaulted outside her apartment and the newspapers reported that she "had been violated." In response Allen said, "knowing my ex-wife, it probably wasn't a moving violation."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:41:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm simply saying that after this long, those remaining fixated on what Legacy "used to be" are in danger of getting stuck in the past. "

Bill, just my opinion here, but I'd really like it if you'd stop telling people how "fixated" they are. You are constantly turning people's grumblings about X into some sort of psychological issue that has deep, broad evolutionary implications. Most of us are just trying to work. Most of the people on this board are experimenters, and always have been. A good 87.5% of us are completely "New gizmo? Bring it on!" You're dealing with people who regularly Beta-test, write plug-ins, and snap up the newest interfaces and i/o devices to play with and see "what if?" Yet, you keep talking to us like we're a bunch of trogs who are about to end up in History's scrap heap because our stodgy habits keep us from receiving Jesus.

Bill, I'm glad you like X and find some joy in it. I enjoyed reading your piece the other day, and in general I enjoy reading about your positive experiences with X. I still enjoy 7, which I do not like to call Legacy, because I still see another year of life in it in my immediate work environment. At the end of that time, I'm guessing I will be 70% Avid, 20% 7, and a little room for Premiere (and maybe more, depending on where CS 6 goes) I doubt there will be any X, but if there is I'll make room for it. It'd be cool if there were.

I should also add that I think you make very good points about who X is right for. And, you've convinced me--on a number of occasions--to take a closer, second look. I think you have terrific things to say, even when I disagree with them. I'm just not so crazy about the "fixated" part.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:46:48 pm

[Bill Davis] "If its true that the very first decision was to "zero out" the existing code base and write on an entirely new foundation - re-examining every design and implementation decision in light of where the hardware, software, and even the market has evolved - then it has to be fair to allow the same amount of time for this code base to evolve and stabilize that all other programs have needed to mature."

I don't really get the concept of it "being fair to allow the same amount of time." It is perfectly fair to reject the software for its immaturity. Apple chose to trade maturity (and everything that comes with it) for a new architecture (and everything that comes with it).

Also, remember that Apple allowed FCP7 to get crufty in the first place. While FCP7 was still throwing KGCore errors (Key Grip!), Avid had written Media Composer piece by piece and Adobe had rewritten Premiere Pro twice.

My clients expect me to improve myself on my own time. I'd be punished in the marketplace if I started offering less tomorrow than I do today with the promise of more next year -- and I'd deserve it.


[Bill Davis] "This constant need to compare X to Legacy and lament the change (talking of others here, not you.) is understandable - but getting old."

Likewise, I feel the constant comparison of FCPX to FCPv1, while interesting in terms of history, is off-target in terms of practicality. None of us (Apple and its competitors included) are in the same positions we were in back in 1999.

Also, FCPX is simply not competing against FCP1. It's competing against Premiere Pro, Media Composer, maybe Edius, Vegas, and Lightworks, and existing seats of FCP7. FCPX is rightfully compared to any of these products as they exist today, not their launch versions.

For those who need features or workflows that FCP7 supported and FCPX does not, Apple has taken two steps backward and one step forward. Ostensibly, Apple plans to take additional forward steps in the future, and it may be exciting to think about how far they may go. That said, looking at FCPX practically as it exists today, it's still just one step backwards.


[Bill Davis] "I'm simply saying that after this long, those remaining fixated on what Legacy "used to be" are in danger of getting stuck in the past. Someone experiences an unwanted divorce and yes, grief is natural and accepted. Maintaining the shrine in the back bedroom and visiting it daily - once inevitability is fully established - is a sign one is having trouble moving on."

I half-agree with this. FCP7 is a dead platform with no future, and I think it's foolish to build a business on a hopeless platform.

On the other hand, some editors have a very good reason to stay with FCP7 for the time being -- it does have some unique features and strengths, and it may help them provide value to clients and earn money better than anything else on the market.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 7:25:04 pm

[Walter Soyka] "On the other hand, some editors have a very good reason to stay with FCP7 for the time being -- it does have some unique features and strengths, and it may help them provide value to clients and earn money better than anything else on the market."

In addition, editors have to evaluate their change in platform based on what fits the bill today, not in several years from now. This doesn't negate X as one of the tools to have, but as long as its reliability is questioned in addition to its maturity, its hard to make a good business case for it. Staying with FCP7 is increasingly not viable. For example, ProRes4444 is very unstable in it.

My point in the original post was that after many years of Apple actively courting a given market - and finally achieving a certain level of success in that goal - they appear to have completely walked away from it, based on the design of X. It's as if the various "A" list film editors they solicited for input were completely ignored.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 1:22:35 am

[Walter Soyka] "I half-agree with this. FCP7 is a dead platform with no future, and I think it's foolish to build a business on a hopeless platform.

On the other hand, some editors have a very good reason to stay with FCP7 for the time being -- it does have some unique features and strengths, and it may help them provide value to clients and earn money better than anything else on the market."


For the record, I have an enterprise customer who needs to buy 30 new seats of FCP legacy right now. This station has sister stations all over who use FCP, and they have to do the same. It's quite a serious situation for them.

As I've been trying to drum through Bill's thick skull, many businesses have huge investments in infrastructure, workflow, and trained personnel. He just doesn't get the seriousness of it, and he tries to casually dismiss it all with with the stroke of a pen (keyboard) or a humorous quip.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 11:15:24 pm

[Bill Davis] "Premier has their switch discount in place again. Avid remains a safe and fully developed choice.
"


Neither is as good as FCP7.


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Shane Ross
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 3:53:15 pm

David, the movie would still have won if it was cut on an Avid. However, if it was cut by other editors, it might not have won

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Alex Gollner
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 4:41:28 pm

It would have won if edited on the Windows version of Avid, but I imagine few films are.

Given that Final Cut Pro was and will be a technology for selling Apple hardware, it still works well for Apple if people switch away from 7 to Adobe or Avid - as long as they don't switch to Windows...

Media Composer and Premiere sell Macs too.

The only thing Apple need worry about when it comes to losing big-budget editors is if the Windows 8 / Ivy Bridge workstation combination is more attractive than OS X Mountain Lion / iMac.


Alex

PS. The 'In Memoriam' section of the Oscars would more accurately have shown QuickTime (as a technology for developers) as having sadly left the scene in 2010...

___________________________________________________
Alexandre Gollner,
Editor, Zone 2-North West, London

alex4d on twitter, facebook, .wordpress.com & .com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:51:16 pm

[Alex Gollner] "It would have won if edited on the Windows version of Avid, but I imagine few films are."

Why? Although you may be right in sheer numbers, I've spoken to numerous international film editors who cut on PC versions of Avid. Lightworks has been and continues to be (for now) a PC-only product. The general driver tends to be the rental houses equipping the film's production company and those (at least in NY and LA) tend to be on Mac-based Avid systems.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:16:42 pm

[Shane Ross] "David, the movie would still have won if it was cut on an Avid. However, if it was cut by other editors, it might not have won
"


Shane, we all know that. The point is more along the lines of one of those commercials where a pickup truck is pulling an outrageously massive load--like, say, an airplane--just to demonstrate that it can do it, though you--yourself--may never be required to actually do so.

And, while FCP X may someday be able to pull an airplane, it currently is not. Nor is it the choice of people who do pull airplanes.


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Bill Davis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:31:32 pm

Chris's post, in my opinion is totally correct.

If you tow airplanes today, or practically believe you will need to tow them tomorrow - then one of those airplane towing carts is the only rational choice.

But buying an airplane towing vehicle to shop for groceries, run daily errands, and take vacations to the coast is just as crazy.

Choice is better than no choice.

There were 3 trucks and a bunch of golf carts in the editing tools offered by most dealers for a lot of years.

Now there's a sports car. It's a poorer choice for dragging heavy planes around right now. But it's innovative, smaller, less expensive and has interesting new feature combinations. Apple may make heavier and more powerful versions of the new vehicle over time - and towing capabilities may improve. They've publically announced their committmtnt to users who need beefier capabilities - but nobody knows for sure.

Learn to drive the new class of vehicles or not.

That's up to you.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 5:57:07 pm

The was this car that could tow trucks, haul the kids to soccer practice, hit the drive through then cruise up to wine country. But it's sitting in a junkyard now, replaced by a hybrid that has just enough battery power to get to the office but you better bring your extension cord. Don't have one? Don't worry, I heard rumor they may build one in in a future model. Oh and the driver seat with massage is awesome! For some reason there's no carpet in the cabin, but the good news is they have super plush shag in the trunk!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Bill Davis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 6:54:42 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "But it's sitting in a junkyard now, replaced by a hybrid that has just enough battery power to get to the office but you better bring your extension cord. "

Given.

The problem is if oil really does continue to suck more and more money out of your life, you look around and eventually ask why everybody ignored supporting an alternative development path.

Right now, every gas station is still pumping. And while we might not "like" prices pushing up towards $5 a gallon - overall we tolerate it.

But when I was in my 20s I remember my first trip to England and seeing gas prices two and a half times what I was accustomed to back at home. The price of the asset seemed totally decoupled from the costs of production. I suspect it still is. So having an alternate game grow up and become a viable choice sounds pretty good, even if here in the development phase, I can't own and operate an electric vehicle at significantly less than the cost of a traditional one.

The only thing you can't argue with is that nobody's making any additional fossil fuels any more. So while it might not be in my lifetime, there will come a day when we'd better have some kind of alternatives in place - or our society will face a crisis - whether it's me, my kid, or some future grandkids.

Heck, If I ran an oil company, I'd try to extract maximum value in these years too - then when the wall gets closer, I'll be sitting on enough bank to buy and control whatever replaces it.

That just makes sense.

If you can see the problem coming, intelligent people usually prefer to start solving it before it becomes critical - but that doesn't mean there's only one "right" way to solve it.

And having more alternatives is typically better than having fewer.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 8:33:07 pm

[Bill Davis] "There were 3 trucks... Now there's a sports car."

I doubt you intend to hold FCPX up as a vehicle built mainly for fun against Premiere Pro and Media Composer as vehicles built to get work done...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 5:37:47 am

[Walter Soyka] "I doubt you intend to hold FCPX up as a vehicle built mainly for fun against Premiere Pro and Media Composer as vehicles built to get work done..."

Walter,

I'm quite surprised at your constrained thinking here!

Who do you think generates the greater economic results in modern society - the folks driving work trucks ... or the folks driving the sports cars?

(grin)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 4:27:02 pm

[Bill Davis] "Who do you think generates the greater economic results in modern society - the folks driving work trucks ... or the folks driving the sports cars?"

Trick question!

Which do you think would damage the economy more: if all the world's trucks turned into sports cars, or if all the world's sports cars turned into trucks?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 6:54:15 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Which do you think would damage the economy more: if all the world's trucks turned into sports cars, or if all the world's sports cars turned into trucks?"

This economy? The former.

But is that where we're going? How many truck drivers does the future need compared to "information workers?"

Apple has already showed us the economic implications of disassembling the supply chain and going direct from manufacturer to consumer in IP commerce.

And it's pretty clear that the dominant fortunes in the new era are tied more to IP than brick and mortar operations.

Both will survive, but the bit distributors seem to be steadily outperforming the box distributors these days.

And as someone who's edited as much in Marriott rooms as in my fixed studio these past few months, I'm thinking that this is a reflection of new realities that I've got to get a handle on.

Thankfully, my hay-barn to studio conversion workspace means I don't have to support the commercial real-estate industry while I make my current living. But if I did, I'd have to look long and hard at what paying all the infrastructure costs of the space is contributing to, (or dragging down) my bottom line.

Yes, clients still want to come sit in my studio and work. But for how long? I can literally do ALL of the same work on a laptop in any space I like. So today, (literally since I have a client coming over at 2pm) I get to ask him if he'd prefer to hole up in the studio this gorgeous afternoon, or should we move out to the patio by the pool and do the project there.

New choices for a new era.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 7:05:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "How many truck drivers does the future need compared to "information workers?""

Until you can transmit a potato or a couch over the internet truckers will be in high demand, cause even a couch potato can't eat a picture of a pizza. The US mail may be in trouble but the teamsters are doing fine. And while your software is internet downloadable your iphone, ipad and ibook are not.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 7:26:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "cause even a couch potato can't eat a picture of a pizza"

And besides, it takes trucks to move couches. Boy, these analogies have a way of driving over a cliff ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 29, 2012 at 5:28:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Until you can transmit a potato or a couch over the internet truckers will be in high demand, cause even a couch potato can't eat a picture of a pizza. The US mail may be in trouble but the teamsters are doing fine. And while your software is internet downloadable your iphone, ipad and ibook are not.
"


Herb, I agree with this.

But one UPS driver can probably service 100 homes a day - thousands in a year.So the folks living in all this other homes have to find something else to do once that single "driver" slot is filled.

And all the hands that used to fill up my FCP-Legacy boxes supply chain have less to do now that the App Store is working.

I'm not saying this is best, or ideal, or not an issue that society has to confront. I'm saying it's simply a reality that wasn't present before. Local store to national chain to big box specialist to warehouse club - the need for physical distribution of stuff will persist until someone perfects the "replicator" model from Star Trek or puts some uber-CNC-product assembly micro-plant in your local mall.

But not to see the change that the App Store has thrust upon us is to ignore reality, IMO.

That an alternate process is not "perfect" is not the same as saying it's "irrelevant."

Hey, good point about FCP-X to bring us back on topic!

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 10:49:20 pm

[Bill Davis] "And as someone who's edited as much in Marriott rooms as in my fixed studio these past few months, I'm thinking that this is a reflection of new realities that I've got to get a handle on"

Bill, you keep going back to this like it is somehow new. I've been doing the same thing for five or six years. This weekend I had to work, but I also need a breather, so I got a room up in San Simeon, brought my laptop with a Glyph drive, a tablet, and a good pair of Beyerdynamics, and worked on both Avid and 7 with my feet up, while gazing occasionally out at the Pacific. I've been doing stuff like that for years. And, I'm sure happy about it. I just don't see it as particularly new.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 11:10:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "And as someone who's edited as much in Marriott rooms as in my fixed studio these past few months, I'm thinking that this is a reflection of new realities that I've got to get a handle on""

[Chris Harlan] "Bill, you keep going back to this like it is somehow new. I've been doing the same thing for five or six years. This weekend I had to work, but I also need a breather, so I got a room up in San Simeon, brought my laptop with a Glyph drive, a tablet, and a good pair of Beyerdynamics, and worked on both Avid and 7 with my feet up, while gazing occasionally out at the Pacific. I've been doing stuff like that for years. And, I'm sure happy about it. I just don't see it as particularly new."

Media for custom display systems is the bulk of my business, and that often means travel, too. I'm currently sitting in the back of a conventional hall in California, rendering animations for a mix of double-wide HD video playback systems and single-channel, multi-layer media servers.

I have my laptop with me, but it's just not the best tool for this job -- so I rented a fire-breathing workstation with a 30" monitor from a local vendor.

For those keeping score, the rental was delivered to the convention center by truck, not sports car.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Michael Gissing
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 28, 2012 at 11:22:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "For those keeping score, the rental was delivered to the convention center by truck, not sports car"

And the Oscar for best comedy goes to....


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 29, 2012 at 5:36:58 am

I don't dispute that Shane, it's not really relevant to the point of the thread. It's ironic that Apple killed the NLE that was chosen by the fellows who won he Academy Award. Better?

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 29, 2012 at 8:14:26 pm

[Shane Ross] "This is one thing I just don't get. Doesn't matter what tool was used to make the film. They don't say "man, that Craftsman Wrench was behind the Ford F150 winning the JD Power and Associates award for 2012...""

They might, if there was a 'brand' associated with the tools. Ford doesn't mention what brand of tool is used at the plant, mostly because they are mostly custom made industrial tools.
But the choice of tool brand is very much a focus of the automotive world, once you get past the manufacture to consumer portion of the market.
If you look at the market above the consumer level, tool branding is often association with event sponsorship, contingency money, team sponsorship, winners purses, and performance in every motorsport discipline.
On a non-sporting portion of the market, it is almost universal that shop mechanics provide they're own hand tools. And while they are each persons personal choice, shops don't allow people working for them to use no-name consumer grade tools that you would buy at the local hardware store, or third world cheap knock-off tools from the swap meet. And yes, they ask you what brand of tools you own on the job interview. Because it makes a difference.
If your mechanic has to use cheap, inferior tools, what does that say about their skill level? To me it says the quality of their work can't earn them enough money to use proper tools. Or maybe it says they aren't serious enough about the job to pony up for the minimum required equipment. Or maybe is says they have no pride in their workmanship, or just don't care.
But for sake of argument, lets say a person has decent skills, but for some unknown reason just chooses to use crap tools. Do you want that guy working on your car to use some cheap third world knock-off tools that round off all the bolt heads?
Or worse, do you want the guy torquing the lug nuts on your wheels to use a calibrated, quality name brand torque wrench, or some off-brand piece of junk he bought for 5 bucks at the dollar store?
Lets take that a step farther.
How about the guy working on the plane your flying in? Do you want some guy that just started doing it for a living, and can only afford the cheapest tools available?
When Alan Sheppard was asked what he was thinking about during his first space flight he said, "it's a very sobering feeling to be up in space and realize that one's safety factor was determined by the lowest bidder on a government contract."
Aren't you more comfortable paying the guy the guy with the experience to know what quality is, and how to deliver quality work with proper tools?
Which person do you aspire to be? The cheap guy, or the quality guy?
I've said it a hundred times, but editing is basically a trade like being an electrician, plumber, finish carpenter, etc. And when it comes to tradesmen, their choice of tools can tell you a lot about their skill, and quality of work.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 29, 2012 at 8:36:05 pm

I think these tool analogies get a bit wacky. Editing is both craft and art. The closest analogy would be musicians and their signature instruments.

Any top guitarist can make awesome music and sound like themselves with just about any guitar they pick up. Yet companies go to great lengths to have signed artists with whom they have marketing deals. Most artists are pretty loyal to only a few brands over their careers. In turn, guitar buyers want to use the same instrument as their favorite player in the unrealistic belief that it will help them sound like their hero.

I view this as "aspirational marketing" and it works in the NLE world, just like it works in the music world. Editors are just as sensitive to the "feel" and "tone" of their favorite NLE as guitarists are to their favorite axe. Same for Pro Tools or DaVinci.

If all the A-list feature editors are associated with Media Composer, FCP, Premiere or Lightworks, then film schools will put those products in and in turn, people learning the craft will ask for those same tools. It's somewhat circular, because those folks learn, grow and advance in the industry and hope to use those same tools when they have their own say-so.

That "plan" was a concerted marketing effort for over a decade with Apple, from which they walked away. Maybe only for the time being... Maybe forever.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Oscar irony
on Mar 2, 2012 at 4:51:34 am

[Oliver Peters] "I think these tool analogies get a bit wacky. Editing is both craft and art. The closest analogy would be musicians and their signature instruments."

Craft, yes. Art, no. I know many of my brothers out there see the first violinist playing some heart wrenching solo, and think that somehow they are in the same category of talent and skill, a type of elite artist. Unfortunately it just isn't true. Anyone can learn to edit. Anyone. I know a color blind editor, and there are editors whose eyesight is so bad they are legally blind. Back in the CMX linear days myself and another editor taught a friends wife who had no previous media production experience how to online edit in about two months, in our spare time after hours at work. Without any other training whatsoever she was able to land an editors job in our top 20 market. One of my interns learned the system in one semester and went right to work as an editor at a competing station without even graduating. But not everyone can learn to play, lets say, the violin, let alone play well enough to do it for a living. Even with a lot of natural skill and a good ear, to play at the concert level takes years of learning and practice. Most professional musicians start playing as young children, playing continuously into adulthood before they are even considered good enough to play at a concert level. Many of the big name editors didn't even know what editing was until the got to college. At that same point of career development a concert level musician has been playing for over a decade. But still what those folks at that level do isn't really art, since art is subjective. A skill which has no standards. There are standards for playing a musical instrument. The term virtuoso means an individual who possesses outstanding technical ability. So that means there is a standard to be judged by. Artist is such a vague label, anyone can call themselves an artist. You don't even have to sell anything to be considered an artist. The day you want to become an artist, you simply start calling yourself one. Try waking up some morning and declare yourself a virtuoso, and attempt to earn a living as such. Good luck with that. Lots of art doesn't even require any skill, or even require being human. There are several zoo elephants that paint, with the most famous being the now deceased Ruby. There are things like tramp art, and war trench art. Both are a type of folk art made with found objects, by untrained artists.
Then there is a skilled tradesman like a high end finish carpenter. The kind of guy that can take a dead tree, and turn it into a thirty thousand dollar conference table. You simply can't just wake up one morning and decide to to become that either. But because its a learned trade, just like editing, anyone can learn to do it, but it takes time and patience to develop the skill. Unlike the musician, it really doesn't require any inborn ability, other than a desire to do it. There are standards to be judged by, like how well the joints fit, that type of thing. Just like we have standards for how well things fit together. As an editor, you can't simply ignore technical standards in pursuit of 'your art'. You are much more like the tradesman who must use his skill to balance the technical requirements against the desired outcome, and choose the appropriate tools to accomplish that task. Which is different than an artist who is free to suddenly change tools, materials or whatever and whenever, on a whim. And no matter what comes out, it is still art.
Tradesmen, like the carpenter or the editor don't have that amount of freedom and must work within the constraints of the job. I know how some hate analogies, but if the artist, had to work like the editor. He would be free to choose the brand of brush, but would still have to use a brush, and would still have to use paint. Where the artist is free to paint with his fingers, and paint in his own blood if the mood strikes him to do so.
So while editing can be used to create art, it is not an art. And the editor is not an artist. He, or she is a craftsman.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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TImothy Auld
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 7:43:13 pm

As someone who edits I have alway found this particular category amusing. I know that initially editors vote for editors. But how do you truly evaluate who did the best job without knowing what was there to work with in the first place? On the other hand if anyone can make a comprehensible sub three hour movie out of 443 hours on a schedule then I say bless them. Anyone want to figure out that shooting ratio? Anybody remember shooting ratios? I (apparently like many others) have not seen this movie. But now I will.

Tim


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Oliver Peters
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 7:55:46 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I (apparently like many others) have not seen this movie. But now I will."

Having seen it twice and the previous movies cut by the same editors ("Zodiak", "Benjamin Button", "The Social Network"), I will have to say Wall and Baxter did a masterful job. If you really want to study the cutting, watch it twice - once to enjoy and a second time to analyze. A lot of the work is pretty subtle, getting to the heart of pacing and building parallel story paths.

This is also an editorial team that has taken a great amount of control over the finishing in-house, building on a pipeline that includes collaborative workflows with FCP/Xsan and use of the various Adobe products for conforming (prep work prior to the final DI). Beyond just being talented editors, the entire post process is a very modern flow that any manufacturer would want to be part of (from a PR standpoint).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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TImothy Auld
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 27, 2012 at 8:22:34 pm

I have seen Zodiac, Button, and Social Network and I know these two guys (and the folks they work with) know how to edit. I just don't know how you really evaluate editing for an award. Or Acting. Cinematography, yes. Art Direction, yes. Costumes, yes. Visual effects, yes. There are real standards by which you can judge. But Acting, Editing, or even writing. What are the objective criteria for judging those? I guess what is really comes down to in all categories is: Does it work?

Tim


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Oscar irony
on Feb 29, 2012 at 9:24:42 pm

[TImothy Auld] " I just don't know how you really evaluate editing for an award. Or Acting. Cinematography, yes. Art Direction, yes. Costumes, yes. Visual effects, yes. There are real standards by which you can judge."

This is an eternal question that has been posed by many film artists throughout the years. Woody Allen thinks the awards are silly, and he never attends. He won this year for best original script and was not there to recieve his Oscar as usual.

The bottom line is, how is this relevent to the issue at hand?

None of the arguments here opposed to Oliver's original premise really detract from the fact that there is indeed great irony in Apple's decision to EOL FCP, the NLE of choice for some of the world's most highly esteemed and "decorated" editors.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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