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Should Apple attend NAB this year?

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Jamal Watts
Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 8, 2012 at 6:30:51 pm

Subject says it all. I'm thinking they should attend to tout any new features they have added to FCP X by that time, to talk more about hardware/plug-in support, and to preserve some of their "Pro" reputation. Of course, we will have to wait and see if it happens but I think it would be a good move. Thoughts?


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:12:54 pm

Apple as a company no longer participates in any trade shows for any of their products. I don't like this policy as the Apple booth was always an exciting place to be during NAB and I'd love to see them there. Not like they can't afford it...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Craig Seeman
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:42:15 pm

But I do think they could do a legitimate in depth feature presentation on stage.
Then, have Evan Schechtman and Ronny Courtens discuss how they're using it in facility and broadcast environments.

This would not be a SuperMeet takeover, their own presentation.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:32:48 pm

Even though they don't have a public presence, Apple is always at NAB.

I'm not sure what Apple would show off, but my guess is that third party hardware/software will be shown off if the particular manufacturers is interested in FCPX, and has a product that is actually viable in working with FCPX.

Interestingly, (and to throw a bunch of highly flammable fuel on a raging fire) the next "update cycle" of FCPX (if Apple continues the current trend) should be right around NAB. And there's also talk of the new MacPro grade intel processors being ready around April as well.

Jeremy


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Shane Ross
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 8, 2012 at 11:47:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm not sure what Apple would show off, but my guess is that third party hardware/software will be shown off if the particular manufacturers is interested in FCPX, and has a product that is actually viable in working with FCPX."

I recall one year when Apple had stage time at a Supermeet...before FCS 3 was released...and we all thought they would announce something about FCS 3. But no. Steve Bayes went on stage to say "Look at all the great partners we have!"

Needless to say, that didn't go over well. So if they do that again... "Hey, look, we are really great because third party apps are plugging our holes!" they might get a similar reception. As they are getting now, on the web.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 1:26:47 am

[Shane Ross] "Needless to say, that didn't go over well. So if they do that again... "Hey, look, we are really great because third party apps are plugging our holes!" they might get a similar reception. As they are getting now, on the web."

It didn't stop anyone who had a third party solution from showcasing fcp legacy in their repsective booths. Apple employees are mingling at NAB, but the software was almost everywhere it made sense to be.

Third party development has always been fcp's method.


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Shane Ross
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 8:20:57 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Third party development has always been fcp's method."

Not for OMF export (it was for a while...needed Automatic Duck to do it right, but then they fixed it internally), XML, EDL...capture from tape, output to tape (non-firewire sources). Just the basics...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 1:14:04 pm

[Shane Ross] "Not for OMF export (it was for a while...needed Automatic Duck to do it right, but then they fixed it internally), XML, EDL...capture from tape, output to tape (non-firewire sources). Just the basics..."

I hear you.

OMF and edl, yes.

XML is Apples, and is still Apple's. You won't need third parties for that in X.

Capture from tape absolutely required third party in legacy, and fcp7s interface to plug in to sucked.

My feeling is that with AJA Control Room, things will be just fine in tape capture/output as AJA and other companies get to interface with their own hardware the best way they can.

Whether or not you will choose to use or are comfortable with third parties is another matter. And that's fine. I wrote about it here:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/26229


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Shane Ross
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 4:06:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Capture from tape absolutely required third party in legacy, and fcp7s interface to plug in to sucked. "

I beg to differ. I captured all the time directly into FCP via Log and Capture. Batch captured, captured now...output to tape. ALL within FCP. I never used the capture/output apps provided by AJA, Matrox, or BMD. It was not "absolutely required."

[Jeremy Garchow] "My feeling is that with AJA Control Room, things will be just fine in tape capture/output as AJA and other companies get to interface with their own hardware the best way they can. "

Will that allow for offline/online? BATCH capturing? Logging and capturing? I'll ask Jon.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Walter Soyka
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 5:22:20 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "My feeling is that with AJA Control Room, things will be just fine in tape capture/output as AJA and other companies get to interface with their own hardware the best way they can."

[Shane Ross] "Will that allow for offline/online? BATCH capturing? Logging and capturing? I'll ask Jon."

What about insert edits? What would the FCPX/AJA Control Room workflow be to fix a couple seconds on tape with a typo in the super, or to try to punch in and repair a single-frame digital error?

When time is of the essence, isn't having this right in the NLE important?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 5:36:34 pm

You might want to look at what AJA is doing with Control Room and VTR Xchange.
http://www.aja.com/products/software

It's possible they're heading towards a complete to/from tape that's a bit deeper than dump in dump out.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 5:40:53 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It's possible they're heading towards a complete to/from tape that's a bit deeper than dump in dump out."

Yes, I see that -- but isn't exporting a small section of an FCPX project still a convoluted affair? I'm trying to picture the entire workflow for inserting a correction to tape, and it seems a lot longer than mark in, mark out, edit to tape. Maybe I'm missing something.

Tape is going to be interesting. As fewer people use, I think the ones who are using it are going to be more demanding.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 7:26:35 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Yes, I see that -- but isn't exporting a small section of an FCPX project still a convoluted affair? I'm trying to picture the entire workflow for inserting a correction to tape, and it seems a lot longer than mark in, mark out, edit to tape. Maybe I'm missing something."

But if 10.0.3 signifies anything, it's that Apple is serious about making improvements. I think partial export will happen. For tape you will have to send to third party. I don't think it's a deal breaker though. In my broadcast days, going back to do an insert wasn't something one assumed as a workflow so much as fix that one avoided. Granted you want to be able to do it when you have to.

I'm not sure if this will mean as much in 3 years from now. A lot changes in just a very few short years. in 2004 YouTube didn't exist. In 2006 there was no Ustream or Hulu. At the start of 2010 there was no iPad. In 3 years the improvements in codec, bandwidth, storage, delivery may be dramatically different. Changes have been fast and they have been radical.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 8:15:45 pm

[Craig Seeman] "In my broadcast days, going back to do an insert wasn't something one assumed as a workflow so much as fix that one avoided. Granted you want to be able to do it when you have to.
"


Oddly, I think that's one of the issues that defines the Industrial-strength dividing line we so debate here--the granularity and precision required to routinely deal with the fixes that one wants to avoid. 97% of the time I don't need an .edl; 3% of the time its indispensable. Most of the time I don't need anywhere near all of the torque that FCS provided; but when I do, I really do.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 9:02:29 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Oddly, I think that's one of the issues that defines the Industrial-strength dividing line we so debate here"

I don't disagree (to use a double negative). What made FCP legacy so valuable is that there was always a way to do the "uncommon" thing one needed to do. It may well be that despite the fact than any number of features were better in either Avid or Premiere Pro, with FCP it just seemed there were more ways to dig out of a problem.

Currently its much harder to dig out of many problems with FCPX. I think that will change over time but I think Apple is taking a different approach regarding how FCPX grows in that direction. Apple's approach seem to gear more towards developing hooks for third party utilities and we can and are certainly debating that as a design philosophy.

As one example, some might say FCPX XML might be alien and it might be powerful and the debate whether the Alien or the Power will win. I think some see 10.0.3 as the first version where promise begins to show as 7toX became possible and the hooks were fixed to the point MagicBullet Looks could finally be released. Hooks, although a very rough beta, show that Broadcast Monitoring solutions will work (at some point).

If FCPX divergent philosophy from FCP7 is to be a hub for third party solutions for niche handling the hooks do need to be robustly developed. This year will be interesting in that regard.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 9:16:06 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think some see 10.0.3 as the first version where promise begins to show as 7toX became possible and the hooks were fixed to the point MagicBullet Looks could finally be released. Hooks, although a very rough beta, show that Broadcast Monitoring solutions will work (at some point)."

Yes. 10.0.03 has renewed my interest primarily because of few less-publicized developments like file relinking. It is little things like that that give me some hope that I may again find a home here. Or at least a summer house. Seeing what happens with this XML is quite interesting for me. Xto7 will finally allow me to play with X a little more seriously, so I'm looking forward to that, sometime after up fronts and May screenings. I don't know if I will eventually like the user metaphor--bin-less, trackless, roles, etc.--but I'm happy X is moving into an arena for me where it becomes a matter of taste and not lack of features that is the deciding factor.


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Steve Connor
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 5:58:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "What about insert edits? What would the FCPX/AJA Control Room workflow be to fix a couple seconds on tape with a typo in the super, or to try to punch in and repair a single-frame digital error?

When time is of the essence, isn't having this right in the NLE important?
"


Absolutely, If I was still in a mostly tape i/o based environment I would be very nervous about using FCPX.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris Harlan
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 5:49:10 pm

[Shane Ross] "[Jeremy Garchow] "Capture from tape absolutely required third party in legacy, and fcp7s interface to plug in to sucked. "

I beg to differ. I captured all the time directly into FCP via Log and Capture. Batch captured, captured now...output to tape. ALL within FCP. I never used the capture/output apps provided by AJA, Matrox, or BMD. It was not "absolutely required.""


Ditto that. Drivers might have been required from 3rd parties, but Log and Capture is what I used almost exclusively for years.


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TImothy Auld
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 7:25:24 pm

I'm using it right now. Never handled timecode breaks particularly well - which always annoyed me - but by and large log and capture and batch capture aways worked well for me.

Tim


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 10:22:55 pm

[Shane Ross] "I beg to differ. I captured all the time directly into FCP via Log and Capture. Batch captured, captured now...output to tape. ALL within FCP. I never used the capture/output apps provided by AJA, Matrox, or BMD. It was not "absolutely required.""

So you don't consider AJA, Matrix, BMD third party?

Then I guess we see the world differently.

You could not capture from tape without buying third party.
Sorry guys, it's true.

If AJA or whoever can hook in to FCPX, then it will essentially be the same thing, except you will have a capture interface that is designed by the people who made the software, instead of FCP's goofy interface.

And potentially, if you have an AJA or whatever card, that capture utility will be the same across all applications if you choose.

I also see this is a good thing. Perhaps you don't, thats fine.

Tape capture from non firewire sources in FCP legacy absolutely required a third party

Jeremy


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TImothy Auld
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 11:39:00 pm

Didn't realize non firewire sources were excepted. Sorry.

Tim


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Chris Harlan
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 10, 2012 at 12:58:47 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "So you don't consider AJA, Matrix, BMD third party?

Then I guess we see the world differently.

You could not capture from tape without buying third party.
Sorry guys, it's true. "


Sigh. Jeremy, of course you need to buy the hardware, and of course the hardware has drivers. The point is that FCP had a built in utility that allowed you to edit directly from i/o makings on a timeline. X doesn't, right? Am I missing something here, or isn't that the point?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 10, 2012 at 3:03:22 am

[Chris Harlan] "The point is that FCP had a built in utility that allowed you to edit directly from i/o makings on a timeline. X doesn't, right?"

X does not.

But it does have a "tape capture" interface. It's rather limited, but then again so is capture card support at this time.

You can sigh. It's OK, but we see this differently.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 10, 2012 at 3:42:11 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "The point is that FCP had a built in utility that allowed you to edit directly from i/o makings on a timeline. X doesn't, right?"

X does not.

But it does have a "tape capture" interface. It's rather limited, but then again so is capture card support at this time.

You can sigh. It's OK, but we see this differently."


I've been sighing all day today. I guess I just see it as semantics. I personally have not had to insert edit to tape in over a year and a half, and that broke a three year hiatus. Of course, the one time I HAD to do it, saved several thousand dollars AND let me get enough sleep on that particular night that I could actually call it sleep, and not a nap.

But that specific function is what this fracas is about, right? And, I get that you are saying that hopefully Apple will allow hooks into that tape capture interface that card makers can grab on to. But that right now, it is not there. So, I guess, is this debate to decide if, say, the hidden Decklink module behind FCP capture module should be called a supplied driver or a 3rd party App?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 10, 2012 at 3:48:31 am

[Chris Harlan] "I guess I just see it as semantics. "

I think it's important to point out the similarities and differences.

[Chris Harlan] " So, I guess, is this debate to decide if, say, the hidden Decklink module behind FCP capture module should be called a supplied driver or a 3rd party App?"

Both. They will write (have already written) drivers that will supply their third party app.

If X allows this capability, I'd much rather have the manufacturers running the show as they can interface with their card the best. VTR Exchange has always been more reliable than FCP's log and capture, but maybe that's just me.

Capture will be a lot easier than output.

X will need some work here.

I never insert edit, I always start over and restripe the whole tape with a clean run.

Although, I rarely layoff to tape anymore, I do use rs422 to Kipro pretty frequently though. No inserts allowed there quite yet, either.


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Robert Brown
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 8:07:07 pm

Kind of seems like they have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Bill Davis
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:47:57 pm

For decades, the "trade show" was the target event for rolling out manufacturers new products. It was efficient for all parties. The producers could set "product readiness" dates, sales forces could gather to be educated, and PR knew when their information had to be "locked" for distribution.

I think the spread of the internet has changed ALL of that.

With a direct, persistent link from producer to customer via the web and search, everyone knows everything as soon as it's made publicly available.

So what is the "trade show" for these days? It's largely social interaction.

Yes, the ability to assess gear in a "hands on" setting is valuable, but it's pretty expensive to take a trip to a centralized location once a year, when the same products are likely to be distributed closer to you in the months after their "trade show" reveal. And with YouTube, et al - the "virtual product demo" - if done even reasonably well - can give the potential purchaser most of the "tire kicking" experience on-line.

In the early years, I usually came home from NAB, CES and the like with 20 pound bags of one-sheets, brochures, and similar "educational" materials. Now I leave with maybe a half dozen photo-notes on my phone.

I go to see friends and socialize with colleagues. The INFO requirement is gone.

Apple understood that well in advance.

Formal trade show participation might not always be the best way to reach potential customers in the modern era - unless they can "re-invent" themselves to provide things we can't get on the web.

I actually think the "Supermeet as performance" demo - and the social oriented "after"parties are the best thing about the modern trade show.

The human connections are important. The one-sheets? Not so much anymore.

My 2 cents anyway.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Craig Seeman
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:10:47 pm

That's why I think Apple would have motive to do a stage presentation (no booth).
The value of booth marketing is one the decline for sure.

What NAB gives Apple is a chance to create trade media buzz in a centralized location in a single controlled stage presentation. They got the buzz last year although I think they got caught by their own stinger. The only question is timing for any further FCPX advances. Apple's forte in the past has been the stage show and NAB gives them press and high end user concentration. It's precisely the social aspect that would make this work. It would be their "social media" event, in person.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: Should Apple attend NAB this year?
on Feb 9, 2012 at 12:44:59 am

I understand the economics of it all the instantaneous info we get via the web, but I still love trade shows. Love walking the floor and of course all the after hours fun. I miss driving out to Vegas and getting a speeding ticket trying to get to the FCP Sunday morn event at Paris when they wow'd us with the 1st "studio". I miss all those jumbo shrimp and champagne!

I also think it's powerful to know you have 100,000+ paid professionals who can go back to all four corners of the globe and evangelize all their colleagues for your product! Yeah they can learn about it on the web but first hand feeling, seeing and touching goes a long way. I'm sure that's why Avid came back to NAB.

I've had the privilege of working for AJA for several NAB's and no one does a better job of maximizing trade shows than they do - from their booth stocked with working pros to their insane best-of-NAB party! It's all for goodwill for their customers and they've built a huge loyal base.

But like Jeremy said - Apple is always at NAB, whether they have a booth or not - FCP has been ubiquitous for years, even though they've stopped coming. It will be interesting this year to see if X shows up in various booths...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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