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Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences

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Gerry Fraiberg
Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 5:32:08 pm

From Philip Bloom:

"I have asked 7 professional editors (yes seven!) who are using FCP X why they are using it and to share their thoughts about it and the recent update which gave us, finally, multicam and various other features. Why settle for one when you can have a diverse group like this offering up their thoughts? Sit back with coffee in hand and see what these guys think! Big thanks to all the contributors!!"

http://philipbloom.net/2012/02/07/fcpxeditors/



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James Mortner
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 6:33:12 pm

Thanks for posting this.

I liked the part about how "it's like a cruise. Awful at first but great near the end !"


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Craig Seeman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 6:59:38 pm

An EXCELLENT series from a diverse group. Mind you Phil Bloom himself was (is?) no fan of FCPX, announcing he was moving to Premiere Pro.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 7:38:28 pm

[Craig Seeman] "An EXCELLENT series from a diverse group. "

Very diverse? Seven editors who's opinion ranges from X is the greatest NLE ever invented to X is one of the greatest NLE's ever invented. I just wonder where Phil might have gone to get a slightly more interesting range of opinions?

Andreas, why don't you give Phil a call.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 8:23:18 pm

Yes, diverse backgrounds. No they didn't all love it. They found things they didn't like. They said things like Avid will win certain markets. Some will use it for their own self contained work but Avid for collaborative work. Several pointed out features they really didn't like . . . but has some features they do admire.

From my own "travels" that seems to be the shift with 10.0.3. I see very few haters. That doesn't automatically mean people love it. I do think they have a better idea where it's going. I even see the shift happening here. Heck, I've can't ever recall Aindreas being this mellow before. He's down to snarl. ;-)



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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 8:37:21 pm

[Craig Seeman] "No they didn't all love it"

No, they all loved it. Some unconditionally, like you would with your child, some with conditions, like you would for your crazy uncle.

[Craig Seeman] "They said things like Avid will win certain markets. "

Has anybody in even their wildest delusional dreams thought otherwise?

[Craig Seeman] "From my own "travels" that seems to be the shift with 10.0.3. I see very few haters."

In my travels I meet a large number of editors who simply think Apple is dead as far as pro editing goes, they laugh if you even mention X. For many X is not even part of the equation, it's not even worth hating.

[Craig Seeman] "I even see the shift happening here. Heck, I've can't ever recall Aindreas being this mellow before. He's down to snarl. "

You don't tug on superman's cape, you don't piss into the wind ...

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:42:48 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Craig Seeman] "From my own "travels" that seems to be the shift with 10.0.3. I see very few haters."

In my travels I meet a large number of editors who simply think Apple is dead as far as pro editing goes, they laugh if you even mention X. For many X is not even part of the equation, it's not even worth hating.
"


My general conversations in facilities and with other editors over the last few months echoes what Herb is saying, even though I hang around here with the hope that FCP X will become, for me, that long-lost crazy uncle.

One of the things I don't understand is the whole "making editing fun again" meme. I mean, I've been doing this for a long time, and it has never not been fun. Maybe that's because I'm a producer/writer, as well, and the NLE is/should be transparent for me, as if it were a fancy word processor.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:22:11 pm

"few months . . ." misses the point. Note that most of the authors also weren't all that keen about FCPX. This release began to change things for many people. Ask people who have actually used it extensively in the last week. I'm seeing and hearing very similar sentiments to that of the authors.



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Oliver Peters
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:18:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "some with conditions, like you would for your crazy uncle. "

OK. That's too good. I'm going to have to steal it some time ;-) But seriously, it sounds like a branding line that Apple marketing should embrace!

"FCP X, editing software designed by your crazy uncle."

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 8:27:58 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Craig Seeman] "An EXCELLENT series from a diverse group. "

Very diverse? Seven editors who's opinion ranges from X is the greatest NLE ever invented to X is one of the greatest NLE's ever invented. I just wonder where Phil might have gone to get a slightly more interesting range of opinions?

Andreas, why don't you give Phil a call.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf"




Or perhaps, just possibly.....

The fundamental program design is functionally better than was demonstrated by the huge chorus of people who approached on the first day as "not what I'm used to" and therefore sucky in all cases and for all time - and have been stuck defending that view ever since.

Also, Herb, Reading your sig again, I had to laugh...

That "spine" thing you guys are so focused on...it now has a name.

The Primary Storyline.

(couldn't resist.)

; )

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Lawrence
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 8:41:14 pm

[Bill Davis] "That "spine" thing you guys are so focused on...it now has a name.

The Primary Storyline."


Actually, "That spine thing" has had an industry standard name and meaning for over 20 years:

The Sequence.

(couldn't resist either)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Bill Davis
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:56:00 pm

[David Lawrence] "The Primary Storyline."

Actually, "That spine thing" has had an industry standard name and meaning for over 20 years:

The Sequence.

(couldn't resist either)"


Wow, must be great for cutting science fiction films.

Since I had single projects that incorporated half a dozen "sequences" from my many years with Legacy - that means I was creating beasts with half a dozen SPINES.

Yikes! Run for your lives!

(smile)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:03:10 pm

Bill, the term "spine" in regards to story structure is actually new to you? I'd have thought that someone with your experience had come across it many, many times.


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Bill Davis
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:31:47 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Bill, the term "spine" in regards to story structure is actually new to you? I'd have thought that someone with your experience had come across it many, many times."

I won't take this as a ham-fisted attempt to cast aspersions on me, tempting as that is.

Instead, I'll treat it as a legit question.

And answer it thus...

I've casually studied the concept that I think you refer to as "finding the spine" over and over in more disciplines than I'd care to remember.

It was noted when I learned "news writing" in college.
Similarly in "creative writing" and even "poetry" classes.
When I started writing and voicing video narrations, early in my career, I remember actually using the word itself - (I think the paragraph was something along the line of "to a homebuilder, the HVAC system is often the spine that determines subsequent room layout and location" - something I scribbled about 25 years ago in a homebuilder script.
And, of course, the term "spine" is pretty useful in the medical narrations I've done over the years. (yuk, yuk)

It's a nice "utility" metaphor since everyone has one, I guess.

I think I understand the "search to reveal the spine" way that you and Fritz are coming at it. And I appreciate the value of a process like that. I just don't think it's always the way projects need to be assembled.

Sometimes "searching" for the storyline is smart. Sometimes something else DEMANDS a particular storyline. Give me a project outline - I'll find my own spine. Give me a script - I'll try to deliver one close to the one the script reveals. Give me a work of art (remember the discussion of Dr. Seuss?) and I'll lay that down without altering a word and work around the exiting "spine" because to do otherwise would presume that I could do it better - and frankly, I don't know anyone who can out-write Mr. Giesell.

So "approach to the spine" is yet another thing that I don't see as as "constrained" a thing as you might.

Or put more simply, sometimes I need to "search" for the spine via my editing, and some times, frankly, I don't.

There you go.

(grin)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:53:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "I won't take this as a ham-fisted attempt to cast aspersions on me, tempting as that is.

Instead, I'll treat it as a legit question. "


I'm not sure what you mean by "casting aspersions." I certainly wasn't. You were reacting to the term as if it isn't used in common conversation about structure, so I was asking. Here, the state of story's backbone or spine is fairly common parlance. I'm just surprised it isn't everywhere.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 8:48:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "The fundamental program design is functionally better than was demonstrated by the huge chorus of people who approached on the first day as "not what I'm used to" and therefore sucky in all cases and for all time - and have been stuck defending that view ever since."

I think there are only a handful of people making an absolute argument against FCPX, just as there are a handful of people making an absolute argument for it. In the middle, reasonable people may reasonably disagree.

Fear of change is real, but not every criticism of FCPX is based on fear.

As FCPX matures, a few things will happen: you're right that the initial shock of the change and resistance to it will fade, but equally importantly, new capabilities will be added and old flaws fixed, and new workflows will grow. In other words, the haters aren't coming around to FCPX, and FCPX isn't becoming FCP8 for them; they're meeting halfway.

Elsewhere in the industry, other editors with specific needs will choose the NLE that fits them the best, and life will go on.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:04:28 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think there are only a handful of people making an absolute argument against FCPX, just as there are a handful of people making an absolute argument for it. In the middle, reasonable people may reasonably disagree.

Fear of change is real, but not every criticism of FCPX is based on fear."


I agree with this.

But it's still instructive how loudly (and most of all) how FAST the vocal minority rose up against it.

My central contention has always been that most of the angst was generated by those who simply never took the time to look at the reality of the program - but merely got stuck on what they "thought" was missing - and how it that alone made them feel..

That short-sighted view (my opinion) is fading, is testament to the fact what while features have been added - the primary design of X is exactly the same as it was when it first came out.

What's changing isn't the program. It's peoples' understanding of it.

Essentially, I'm arguing that anyone who didn't spend SIGNIFICANT time using it - was simply unable to make informed judgements about it's capabilities. But that didn't stop most people from popping up here and doing so.

Some took a "wait and see" attitude (you prominent among them, Walter) and always tried to achieve some balance. Others simply kept yelling about how terrible it was, long after it had shown that it was in no way "terrible" for anyone who was open to some change.

From the distance of a few months, we're able to see it better. Software that works for many, but not all video editors.

Which is precisely what it was on "day one" of it's release.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:52:24 pm

[Bill Davis] "My central contention has always been that most of the angst was generated by those who simply never took the time to look at the reality of the program - but merely got stuck on what they "thought" was missing - and how it that alone made them feel... What's changing isn't the program. It's peoples' understanding of it."

But Bill -- people didn't just think things were missing. There were actually features missing when comparing FCPX to its namesake. Major, important features that underpinned entire workflows.

I don't think you're giving the ProApps team nearly enough credit for the work they've accomplished since June of last year, and I don't think you're giving your fellow colleagues here enough credit for knowing what they need in order to do their jobs.

XML. Multicam. Video monitoring (in beta). On the third-party side, 7toX.

All these things address major shortcomings of the original release, making it more suitable for more workflows. There are now a lot of editors (for whom it frankly would have been irresponsible to consider FCPX in June) who can now properly evaluate the app for the first time.

If 10.0.3 had been the first release of FCPX, we could have had a much purer discussion about the difference in editorial mechanics between FCP7 and FCPX.

Instead, Apple botched the release and alienated a huge swath of the high-end FCP users, some of whom had tied their own reputations to Apple's by supporting FCP Classic's rise to prominence in the first place. Because of this, the debate couldn't be limited to the things Apple has tried to improve on.


[Bill Davis] "Essentially, I'm arguing that anyone who didn't spend SIGNIFICANT time using it - was simply unable to make informed judgements about it's capabilities. But that didn't stop most people from popping up here and doing so."

I have to disagree (and I'm sure you're shocked).

Think back to last June. If you had to deliver an EDL to a colorist, finish an edit, work with tape, or support legacy projects, I think you could make a very informed judgment that FCPX wasn't for you without ever opening the app.

I believe in testing workflows, but I believe there are hard limits on what you can learn in testing. Actual production use is the best way to evaluate, and with 10.0.3, for the first time, many users can now do just that.

People on both sides of the debate are generalizing from their own experience, and that's where I think the most division has occurred.

It doesn't work for me (because I actually need FCP7's XYZ feature for my workflow), so it's bad -- or it does work for me (because I can use FCPX's ABC feature in my workflow), so it's good.

As we've argued, we've just polarized each other even more, going from "it's bad" to "it's totally unsuitable for professional use," or going from "it's good" to "it's the future of all editorial."

Hopefully Apple will continue to add needed features, the app will continue to improve, and more editors will be able to properly evaluate it. In the short term, I think the biggest contribution FCPX has made to the post community has been asking us all to re-evaluate how we work. I'm still curious to see if long-term contributions will include a new timeline metaphor and more emphasis on metadata in more workflows.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 8:48:29 pm

[Bill Davis] "Also, Herb, Reading your sig again, I had to laugh...That "spine" thing you guys are so focused on...it now has a name. The Primary Storyline."


Bill, it's a sad thing to watch the memory go ...

That sig thing came from a discussion about the primary storyline, and how the concept of needing to know what your primary storyline was before starting your edit was lunacy. It was then that Franz came up with what I think of as a concise definition of the true nature of editing.

But for X the problem still remains, how do you know what should be on the primary storyline when solving that mystery should be the aim of your work?

Unless of course your working on one dimensional projects which lack the complexity to mystify.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 8:56:23 pm

What the heck, here's the original thread and the quote that I lifted for my sig.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/17728

All this to say that I'll second Mark Morache with his unease with the "primary storyline". The first steps of editing should not dictate your end. The story of a film (for those that rely on stories) is a result of the editing process, not the starting point. This is true whether the film is scripted or not - "story" is an impression left on the audience and will differ from audience member to audience member. Frankly I'm baffled that I would have to decide the spine at the beginning. Deciding the spine is the process of editing.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:03:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] "But for X the problem still remains, how do you know what should be on the primary storyline when solving that mystery should be the aim of your work?"

That's the question, isn't it?

Another thing I find constantly amusing are statements like this one from Michael Friedman in the article:

[Michael Friedman] "It’s hard to think of ways to convey feelings about software. So, I am merely trying to express the small sense of elation that I felt when I realized the upside of losing my trusted track framework. I felt encouraged to experiment more. I felt slightly liberated in my timeline edits."

Here's a pro tip that works for all track-based NLEs - duplicate sequence. You're welcome. Go crazy. Experiment to your heart's content. Digital media solved the experimentation problem decades ago.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:14:35 pm

Well David, if we're gonna get crazy and actually quote some of those reviews, let's take a look at this from Mr. Friedman:

It’s very hard to break sync with the default settings in FCP X. But, as much as Apple is trying to prevent us from losing sync, my editing habits are formed around breaking sync constantly, and then repairing it. That’s how I edit. Broken sync indicators often help me track my edits in progress.

After months of editing with FCP X, I am still aware of the ‘missing tracks’ but now, instead of driving a car, (bear with me, I am jumping metaphors) it feels more like skiing or surfing. There’s a freedom, a flexibility. Now, ‘tracks’ seem out of place.


OK, I'm still waiting for the explanation of how he works without the sync indicators. This is of interest to me because I work this way all the time, my day isn't made till I've broken sync at least a dozen times. So how does he get around it ... well I don't know, apparently he's out surfing the audio waveforms having an epiphany.

Times up, I have to put my skiis back on the rack now and go click my sync indicators so I can print my show to tape.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:28:45 pm

[Herb Sevush] "OK, I'm still waiting for the explanation of how he works without the sync indicators."

Yeah, I was curious about that too for the same reasons. It great he's having fun, it just wasn't clear if he still misses them or not with his new workflow.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:30:39 pm

[David Lawrence] "
[Herb Sevush] "But for X the problem still remains, how do you know what should be on the primary storyline when solving that mystery should be the aim of your work?"

That's the question, isn't it?"


Indeed.

[David Lawrence] "Another thing I find constantly amusing are statements like this one from Michael Friedman in the article:

[Michael Friedman] "It’s hard to think of ways to convey feelings about software. So, I am merely trying to express the small sense of elation that I felt when I realized the upside of losing my trusted track framework. I felt encouraged to experiment more. I felt slightly liberated in my timeline edits."

Yup.
Here's a pro tip that works for all track-based NLEs - duplicate sequence. You're welcome. Go crazy. Experiment to your heart's content. Digital media solved the experimentation problem decades ago.
"


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tony west
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:37:45 pm

[Herb Sevush] "But for X the problem still remains, how do you know what should be on the primary storyline when solving that mystery should be the aim of your work? "


I kind of just see that primary storyline as V1 with audio.

When I cut something, I have in my head what I want it to look like before I even start.

I just have to get what's in my head on that screen.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:39:30 pm

[tony west] "When I cut something, I have in my head what I want it to look like before I even start."

Which is why X works for you.

Many times I have no idea what the story will look like. It is precisely these times that keep me interested in editing.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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tony west
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:53:24 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Which is why X works for you."


Old fc worked for me also. Just not as fast because it was 32 bit

X hasn't really changed the way I come up with my ideas.

I might be driving in my car and something will hit me. (hopefully not another car hahaha)
A song that would work with a shot.

X seems like it would work for me even if I didn't know what I wanted because it's so easy to slide things around. The whole auditions thing seems meant for that. Try this try that. The whole preview a look before you make it thing. That's for when you don't know how you want it to look. You're trying things.


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Leo Hans
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:31:08 pm

Would you be happy if 7 out of 7 dislikes FCPX?

Leo Hans
Editor AVID - Final Cut Pro
http://www.leohans.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:35:52 pm

[Leo Hans] "Would you be happy if 7 out of 7 dislikes FCPX?"

No, that wouldn't teach me anything. I'm fairly happy with the diversity of this forum, where Jeremy, Craig, Steve, Tom and others can praise X without going overboard, and then Bill can come up with a crazy metaphor that gets me steamed up all over again. Plus we have Aindreas.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Leo Hans
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:42:23 pm

Herb,

Perhaps I was too emphatic with my reply. I am sorry about that.

I think the interesting part is to know how seven editors ended liking FPCX. Then you can share or not their thoughts on pros and cons of the software.

If you read about people dropping FCPX all are the same: It's iMovie Pro. What do you have to learn from that?

Leo Hans
Editor AVID - Final Cut Pro
http://www.leohans.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:49:26 pm

I will continue to have my complaints about FCPX…and FCP 7…and Avid…and Premiere.

True words and don't forget Vegas Pro! At least these paid Editors gave it a fair shake and tried it on some paying gigs, that's really the only way to get into it and make a real decision.

Funny how all the haters just can't stand that FCPX might actually catch on...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:58:50 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "True words and don't forget Vegas Pro! At least these paid Editors gave it a fair shake and tried it on some paying gigs, that's really the only way to get into it and make a real decision. "

Well, Lance some of can't even try it yet in our paying gigs. I know, in theory, that broadcast monitoring is now in Beta, but the reports I'm reading say it is still seriously flawed. I'm sure that will be worked out, but it ain't yet.

Also, in this thread which posts do you see as being from haters who are afraid of FCP X succeeding? I don't see any, but maybe I missed something.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:51:58 pm

C'mon... this is hater central. Do you have a mirror in your edit bay?

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:56:29 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "C'mon... this is hater central. Do you have a mirror in your edit bay?"

Geez, and I thought it was fanboy central, and I'm certain your never far from a reflecting surface.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Richard Herd
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:59:55 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construal


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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:01:57 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "C'mon... this is hater central. Do you have a mirror in your edit bay?
"


God forbid you ever become in charge of things. Man, you have a myopic view of the world. When you pulled in here, you were one of the loudest "haters" of them all. I had to calm YOU down because your vitriol got personal against reasonable people who liked the program. Now that you have religion, anybody with any qualms or issues that you don't agree with is a "hater." I think you're the only one in the above conversation who approaches this with anything resembling hate. Talk about needing a mirror.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:37:33 pm

Here you go with the personal attacks again. WTF? You can dish it out but you can't take it...

I'm myopic? Guilty as charged. But again, go to mirror, go directly to mirror, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:45:09 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Here you go with the personal attacks again. WTF? You can dish it out but you can't take it..."

Excuse me? We must live in completely different realities.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:57:47 pm

You chimed in after me and got personal with me right away. I understand you may be too busy to give FCPX a serious go at the moment. But why the need to get so aggressive here? Even with Bill who's like the nicest guy on the Cow!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Walter Soyka
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:09:57 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "C'mon... this is hater central. Do you have a mirror in your edit bay?"

You do throw around an incredible amount of innuendo, Lance, and with this response to Chris, you just threw some at one of the most thoughtful contributors here (who just happens to be on the fence about FCPX).

I'm glad that FCPX is working for you, but maybe you could spend more of your energy outlining how FCPX fits in your feature workflows instead of continuously suggesting that other posters are unprofessional, one-dimensional, or incapable of critical thought.

Failing that, you can at least have the decency to insult us to our faces and give people the opportunity to defend themselves. You really think it bothers anyone here to see FCPX improving?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:53:55 pm

suggesting that other posters are unprofessional, one-dimensional, or incapable of critical thought.

Just plain weird response. I didn't even mention any names when I said "haters" but look at who chimed in...

There are a few obvious FCPX haters here, we all know who they are because they chime in EVERY time there's a positive report about X. This thread is a prime example - just read some of the responses.

But hating on X doesn't mean they are unprofessional, one-dimensional or incapable of critical thought. I've never implied any of those things. There are a few who I think are hacks for certain but that's based on their work and demo reels and is my opinion. They may think the same of me and my work and are free to do so.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Walter Soyka
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 2:32:22 am

[Lance Bachelder] "Just plain weird response. I didn't even mention any names when I said "haters" but look at who chimed in..."

How coy. I have let your oblique insults (to myself and others whose heads appear on the top of this forum) go by without comment in the past, but this is ridiculous.

When I do consulting work, I'm paid for my analysis. If you're calling me a hater, you're attacking my credibility. If you're not calling me a hater, then you're calling someone else here a hater, and you're attacking their credibility.

There's pretty much just one rule on this forum: critique ideas, not people. I'm calling you out for violating it, and I'm asking you to stop.

Over the last seven months, I've been labeled a hater, a whiner, a Luddite, a dinosaur, and maybe even a hack -- all because I've discussed my concern about Apple's treatment of their professional customers, and because I've detailed how FCPX doesn't fit my workflow (today).

The fact that I've also praised Apple for developing features in FCPX like its high-quality rendering engine, unique Motion rig integration, and DAM-in-an-NLE metadata handling -- or the fact that I've actually recommended that a couple of my clients evaluate FCPX because it suits their workflows well -- doesn't seem to matter.

Others have suffered the same treatment here.

These labels are all wrong and inappropriate, and they falsely divide the community. Everyone in this thread has a legitimate professional and intellectual interest in what this software is offering, and they should be free to offer their opinions for debate without fear of personal attack.

Lance, I think everyone here would be very interested to hear your thoughts on feature workflow with FCPX. You could use the depth of your experience and the nature of your work to add a lot value to the conversation here.

Calling unspecified people names adds no value and is highly disrespectful to those of us actually trying to discuss the issues.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:44:01 am

I think "hater" is an online term of affection - you're taking this waaaaayyyyy too seriously Walter. If I say "Yankee's Suck" are you going to wanna fight me on it or take as a friendly jab from a fan of an opposing team (Angels for the record). Now if I said "Jeter sucks and is one of the biggest jerks in sports" that would be INSANE! He's one the all-time great Yankee's, players and athletes and a great guy. And I can say that objectively as a baseball fan and as someone who respects the fact that the Yankee's ownership and management is 100% committed to winning every single season. But when the Yanks play the Angels, I'm a hater lol!

The problem in this forum is the continual bashing of anyone who says anything good or positive about FCPX. And when someone stands up to them and calls them out on it they're the bad guy. I've NEVER said a single bad thing about you Walter, I don't know you and I have never seen any of your work. I trust that Ron & Co. are have good reason to make you a Leader here on the Cow and I respect that. I only wish it was a two-way street. If you've really been called all those names for the past 7 months then maybe it's you that also needs to think before you type? God knows I let my keyboard get the better of me way to often!

I've been a leader here on The Cow since 2001 but apparently I'm not allowed to state my case in defense of FCPX - you know, the app that this forum is about?

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Walter Soyka
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 2:45:29 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "The problem in this forum is the continual bashing of anyone who says anything good or positive about FCPX. And when someone stands up to them and calls them out on it they're the bad guy... I only wish it was a two-way street."

The problem on this forum is the continual bashing of anyone, for any reason, period. We're here to talk about ideas, not each other. No matter what your position on FCPX is, you should expect your ideas to be debated, but you should feel personally welcome.


[Lance Bachelder] "If you've really been called all those names for the past 7 months then maybe it's you that also needs to think before you type?"

I'm not the first person to question whether they should take offense at something that you've written here. Even if you mean it in good fun, it's not coming across that way at all. This is a water cooler, not a bar.

When numerous others around you are offended at what you say, maybe you should take your own advice about thinking before typing, rather than blaming the offended.

I'm not interested in being told in polarizing and oversimplified terms what my own opinion of the software is. I don't hate FCPX, and I don't want to see it fail -- nor does anyone else you've addressed in this thread.

I'm also not interested in an extended and personal back-and-forth. We're here to discuss FCPX, right? Let's do that.


[Lance Bachelder] "I've been a leader here on The Cow since 2001 but apparently I'm not allowed to state my case in defense of FCPX - you know, the app that this forum is about?"

On the contrary, I am very, very interested in your defense of FCPX -- so let's hear it!

What makes this forum so interesting to me are the diverse workflows represented. No one else here is doing feature work with FCPX (that I'm aware of), so I am sincerely interested in hearing what the ups and downs are like, what things you can't imagine editing without, and how you're working through any problems you encounter.

You've changed your mind about FCPX since you started using it, and your work is likely both exploiting FCPX's strengths (things like metadata and auditions) and exposing you to its weaknesses (project bloat and slowness, interchange difficulties).

We all keep coming back here specifically for the interaction around varied perspectives like yours.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Steve Connor
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 2:59:34 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The problem on this forum is the continual bashing of anyone, for any reason, period. We're here to talk about ideas, not each other. No matter what your position on FCPX is, you should expect your ideas to be debated, but you should feel personally welcome.
"


Absolutely correct!


[Walter Soyka] "What makes this forum so interesting to me are the diverse workflows represented. No one else here is doing feature work with FCPX (that I'm aware of)"

Actually I'm cutting a feature on it at the moment!


Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:18:01 pm

[Steve Connor] "Actually I'm cutting a feature on it at the moment!
"


Cool!


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Jari Innanen
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 8:04:17 pm

[Walter Soyka] "What makes this forum so interesting to me are the diverse workflows represented. No one else here is doing feature work with FCPX (that I'm aware of)"

I am cutting a feature with FCPX and loving it.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 8:25:25 pm

[Jari Innanen] "I am cutting a feature with FCPX and loving it."

How do you plan to get your audio out for finishing?

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jari Innanen
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 8:44:32 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "How do you plan to get your audio out for finishing?
"


I keep my fingers crossed!
I just finished a documentary and went the Xto7 route. Actually I'm waiting an answer from Greg, since the latest update broke something, but I sure we can figure it out. It was all 25fps.

The feature I'm on now is a DSLR one (23.976 fps), so after I got it finished I hope there is an easier way.
I'm a positive person.

Apple Certified Associate, FCP X


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:14:59 pm

Lol check out the above thread about the PC Mag article - perfect example... can you feel the love tonight?...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Craig Seeman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:38:22 pm

I think we're over the hump. People are liking 10.0.3. This is probably what people would have expected at the initial release.

There's still some complaints but it would have been more of a grumble than an uproar.

If only Apple's management and marketing had handled this better.



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Richard Herd
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 7:48:56 pm

Handled it better? Better than having us pay $299 to be beta testers? Pretty much genius, really. Without the FCP brand it wouldn't have happened.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 8:46:31 pm

[Richard Herd] "Handled it better? Better than having us pay $299 to be beta testers? "

But you get the free update to the first almost complete release ;-)

It'll be interesting how they handle upgrade pricing given the App Store policy.
For $299 you subscribe to FCPX for 18 months and they pay another $299 for the next version?
I believe some App Store developers issue coupons to current users when the next paid version hits the store, with a fairly narrow period to take advantage of it.

BTW as much as I like FCPX I think you're being kind by calling it beta. In my early posts I said that I liked it but it seemed more like alpha. Alpha in that it wasn't feature complete. Beta is at the point one is testing complete features for release. I was a little tongue in check about that but, as far as "the market" is concerned, 10.0.3 probably comes closer to meeting people's expectations of a feature complete 1.0 app.



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Richard Herd
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:19:51 pm

What?! You mean the part when the app crashes was not part of the design? Who knew!?


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Craig Seeman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 9:35:05 pm

[Richard Herd] "What?! You mean the part when the app crashes was not part of the design? Who knew!?"

That was a built in feature to showcase that when you reopened the project you wouldn't lose anything even though there was no save function. That the "didn't lose anything" didn't always happen was the demo of the automatic quit, delete all, restart app function. Apparently some people weren't happy with those auto random features so they removed them. That proves Apple was listening to the user base of course ;-)



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 2:23:39 am

[Craig Seeman] "BTW as much as I like FCPX I think you're being kind by calling it beta. In my early posts I said that I liked it but it seemed more like alpha. Alpha in that it wasn't feature complete. Beta is at the point one is testing complete features for release. I was a little tongue in check about that but, as far as "the market" is concerned, 10.0.3 probably comes closer to meeting people's expectations of a feature complete 1.0 app."

I said that same thing back in June and you disagreed. :)

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com
http://www.ProMax.com

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 2:26:18 am

I'm pretty sure I was calling it an alpha early on. I said I felt it was a good foundation but feature incomplete.

OK I said it July 12th.
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/10361'> http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/10361

My exact words.
FWIW it's more alpha than beta. Beta implies feature complete being tested. Alpha means features not yet implemented which is where it's at as far as I can tell.



and the first post I see you saying it is Oct 19
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/18482


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 3:08:19 am

[Craig Seeman] "and the first post I see you saying it is Oct 19"

Actually Craig, as early as June 23rd I wrote: "If you recall, ever since the early days of Discreet Edit* I've always hated the idea of paying to beta test for companies that knowingly release software that's not ready for prime time."

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/4426

In any case, I was joking with you today, but do I think we're essentially in agreement. :)


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Craig Seeman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 3:14:49 am

[David Roth Weiss] "I've always hated the idea of paying to beta test"
[David Roth Weiss] "In any case, I was joking with you today, but do I think we're essentially in agreement. :)"

Rock Paper Scissors, Alpha beats Beta ;->



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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 3:44:11 am

[David Roth Weiss] "[Craig Seeman] "BTW as much as I like FCPX I think you're being kind by calling it beta. In my early posts I said that I liked it but it seemed more like alpha. Alpha in that it wasn't feature complete. Beta is at the point one is testing complete features for release. I was a little tongue in check about that but, as far as "the market" is concerned, 10.0.3 probably comes closer to meeting people's expectations of a feature complete 1.0 app."

I said that same thing back in June and you disagreed. :)"


We've all grown a lot since then. Or is groaned a lot?


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Jack James
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 9:30:02 am

I think you hit the nail with the larger problem here. Ultimately this is about Apple telling their users how to work instead of the other way round.
Prior to X, every iteration of Final Cut Pro was about helping editors to improve their workflow in some way. No-one knew in advance what the next version would be like, because that's Apple's way. But it didn't really matter, because the improvements where usually for the best.
Then with X, you can imagine the meeting at Apple HQ: "We need to make editing more sexy, more ipod-like". And in usual Apple fashion, they went about making a lot of changes behind closed doors, and then being horrified when their users tried to point out that maybe editors know a bit more about what makes good editing software than Apple. This isn't the same as iPhoto, where it's kind of OK for Apple to tell me what's best in terms of managing my photos. But for Apple to decree that "tape is dead in the editing world"? Good grief, I can only imagine the severe thrashing they'd get if they tried to "revolutionise" another industry like the medical industry.

I found the entire thing very distasteful and haven't given X a look-in since it launched. For the most part, I like the care and detail that goes into Apple's products, but FCPX is born of arrogance, not consideration.

Synaesthesia 1.0 production data tracking and Red footage logging for Mac now available
http://synaesthesia.surrealroad.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 9:48:27 am

[Jack James] "I found the entire thing very distasteful and haven't given X a look-in since it launched. For the most part, I like the care and detail that goes into Apple's products, but FCPX is born of arrogance, not consideration.
"


I'm glad Apple tried something different with FCPX, I know they bungled the release in almost every way possible, but at least they have tried to push the boundaries. PPro is pretty much what FCP8 would have been had Apple continued down that road anyway so you can always use that if you don't like the change.

Or if you want even more continuity go Avid.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Jack James
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 10, 2012 at 10:05:42 am

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for innovation. But when you're talking about people's expertise and livelihood, it should be an additive process, not a rebellious one.

There's a line in the book "Almost Perfect" (which documents the rise and fall of Wordperfect Inc.) about how they realised what a mistake it was to remove functionality from software.

I think that's what hurt the FCPX debacle a lot. The magnetic timeline, the keywording, the publish to ireport, all of that could have been _added_ to FCP, along with the ability to disable (or ignore) those features. I don't think there would have been the uproar. What happened though was they got added, and a whole lot of stuff got removed. My understanding is that some of them have slowly been introduced, but I think there's a lack of confidence now. What if in FCP11 Apple remove the ability to export to file? Or decide that trimming is too 1980s and remove it?

---
Synaesthesia 1.0 production data tracking and Red footage logging for Mac now available
http://synaesthesia.surrealroad.com


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Richard Herd
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:55:31 pm

[Chris Harlan] "the reports I'm reading say it is still seriously flawed"

Just curious why you are reading reports rather than testing it yourself?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:17:45 pm

[Richard Herd] "[Chris Harlan] "the reports I'm reading say it is still seriously flawed"

Just curious why you are reading reports rather than testing it yourself?

"


I've tested it, and I'm hoping someday to use it. I have a relatively intense, deadline driven workflow, which I have to integrate with a team. Right now, there are still too many issues to consider--both in coordinating delivery, and with the program itself--to try to integrate it into the workflow. Frankly, its a no brainer not to. This recent update suggests that it might be possible for me to try it when my flow decreases a bit and monitoring is out of Beta. I've been wishing I could do with FCP X what I'm currently doing with Avid to get my cutting fingers back, which are rough cuts that I then finish off in FCP 7, and X to 7 seems like it might let me do that. Of course, I can't do any of this at the expense of my clients, so probably after UpFronts--sometime in early summer--I'll work a few projects through.


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Richard Herd
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 11:51:47 pm

Well hopefully you stay so busy you don't get the time!


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Herb Sevush
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 9:56:09 pm

[Leo Hans] "If you read about people dropping FCPX all are the same: It's iMovie Pro. What do you have to learn from that?"

I disagree.

I have found a lot to learn in the posts of Walter Biscardi, David Lawrence, Franz Bieberkopf, Walter Soyka and others who are not using X as yet, along with some editors who are really straddling the middle like Simon Ubsdell. Even Aindreas has not totally written off X as yet.

It is true that I have nothing to learn from those who have never tried X, just as I have nothing to learn from those who won't try anything not made in Cupertino.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Neil Goodman
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 7, 2012 at 10:25:09 pm

ill tell you, i was one of those people who balked at FCp x, and YES, the common discussion around LA at least is that most editors wont even touch it with a ten foot pole. In fact that attitude is even being adopted by students and newbies, just cause they know the more experienced are balking at it.

That said, i installed the demo last night of 10.0.3 after dabbling with the initial release and it has come a long way.. a very long way. Mainly in the feel of it, the responsiveness, etc..

i still wont be using it to cut anything anytime soon but i dont doubt in the next couple years that it becomes everything we wanted it to be and then some. When it does come to fruition, it will just be another tool in the box.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Philip Bloom Asks Seven Editors to Share Their FCP X Experiences
on Feb 8, 2012 at 11:50:27 pm

I'm always around for the occasional crazy..


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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