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ryan early
my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:18:27 pm

I am running FCP 6.7 and was planning on leap frogging fcp 7 straight into X and now I am at a loss as to what to do. From what I have read FCPx is not for me, no multicam rules it out straight away. I like the old fcp interface, all we needed was 64 bit support and a bit more stability.

To say I am pissed at apple is an understatement. Who's idea was it to take what was becoming industry standard software and turn it into a fisher price toy.

Adobe are going to make a killing out of this.


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Tom Daigon
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:21:01 pm

Adobe has my vote as well. They deserve our business because they listen and implement what pros need in their software. Bye Bye crApple.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Joe Murray
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:35:26 pm

But you'll still run your Adobe product on Apple hardware, right? So either way, Apple wins.

Joe Murray
Edit at Joe's
Charlotte, NC


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Tom Daigon
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:38:28 pm

They just win a little less..

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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James Mortner
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:41:27 pm

D'ya think it may be just a little premature to say 'bye bye crApple' ?

Just a bit ?


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Mark Palmos
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:47:26 pm

[Joe Murray] "
But you'll still run your Adobe product on Apple hardware, right? So either way, Apple wins"


The ONLY reason I have an apple computer is for fcp... but with my 8 core now not new enough to take full advantage of the 64 bit rendering, and with fcpX seeming so lacking in features, I would definitely be going for a really fast 64bit PC... and premiere.et

At the moment with fcpX it looks like I just wasted some money. FCP7 looks way better.

Mark


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Craig Seeman
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:52:50 pm

[Mark Palmos] " but with my 8 core now not new enough to take full advantage of the 64 bit rendering,"

How did you make this determination?
Of course I can't even download it on MacPro 3.1 8 cores because I still have Radeon 2600 GPU installed.



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Kevin Monahan
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 10:25:33 pm

Creative Suite runs great on a PC too! Just sayin...

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
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Scott Davis
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:40:49 pm

I don't understand by what you mean when you say Apple is not listening. 64 bit, background rendering, cleaner interface, much better media management, compound clips, magnetic timeline (all things I and many, many others have been clamoring for for years) The gigantic missing parts (no edl, xml, log+capture to name a few) is very disconcerting at this point; but for Pete's sake, this was a massive, massive re-write. Give them a bit to see what happens before a completely reactionary jumping of ship.

We all jumped on the Apple bandwagon long ago because they where innovators and pioneers. Now we should criticize and abandon them because they are doing the very thing that brought us into their fold?

Scott Davis
View Scott Davis's profile on LinkedIn



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Tom Daigon
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:45:33 pm

Car analogy....

Yes it has a great engine and a transmission with a few gears missing. But it has no wheels.

Adobe has all the parts I need NOW. If youd like to walk to work and wait until they figure out the wheels , thats fine. I dont have that luxury.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Ben Holmes
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:52:47 pm

[Tom Daigon] "If youd like to walk to work and wait until they figure out the wheels , thats fine. I dont have that luxury."

Really? What changed from last week? Is there a new version of CS out? i must have missed something.

FCPX was never going to hit every goal of users from day 1 - it's a new product, and the core needs to be stable and workable first. There's no question in my mind that XML etc. will follow.

It does seem to me that there is a mass of FCP-bashing going on here from current Adobe and Avid users - I wonder to what purpose? If you're already using these products, what do you care what Apple has out now?

I like the experiment - and Apple have an existing product I can use for now.

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

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David Cherniack
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:59:11 pm

[Ben Holmes] "It does seem to me that there is a mass of FCP-bashing going on here from current Adobe and Avid users"

Really? It seems to me that it's all from dissappointed FCP users. We Adobe users have been very quiet here today. There's no point in rubbing another's wounds with salt.

The initial disappointment in missing features was bound to happen. They're pretty important to a lot of people. Eventually people will settle in, explore what is there, and determine how to live with the present reality.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Tom Daigon
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:38:32 pm

Wrong. This bashing is coming from a FCP user ;-)

What happened, in case you weren't paying attention, is that THIS week we know the major limitations that are FCP X. Last week it was just speculation! So now decisions for the immediate future need to be made to accommodate these short comings. The future may hold changes, but that doesnt help me when I edit today or tomorrow.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Chris Simpson
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 3:53:34 pm

So does adobe have multiclip sequencing now? I only ask as I only came over from PC/adobe, for 2 reasons, my PC could never be made stable or reliable enough and multiclip sequencing. It's the foundation of more of workflow, so I'll be sticking with FCP7 until it's there, I also see Lion, a graphics card upgrade are required. I do wonder if my dual core mac pro will have the stones. You see when the announced the cheap price... Well really like trading in a car it's not the price of the new car, it's the cost to change.


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David Cherniack
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:18:19 pm

[Chris Simpson] "So does adobe have multiclip sequencing now? I only ask as I only came over from PC/adobe, for 2 reasons, my PC could never be made stable or reliable enough and multiclip sequencing"

FYI since you asked:

CS5.5 supports multi-clips and is rock solid stable even for huge projects. It does want a lot of ram 8GB+ and if you want the terrific dynamic linking with AE, Audition 24GB is a good amount.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Chris Simpson
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:33:15 pm

Thanks David.

Although the associated cost to change leave me as Mike says. 7 works for me. I figured after the sneak peek that I'd stick with 7, allow it be debugged and missing features be added. I did give some thought to learning it running parallel, on some personal projects, but instead, I'll have to save the cash for necessary upgrades. Which from a business pov, if 7 pays & meets my clients needs. I stay with 7. Which is a shame, but that's life!


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Mike Molenda
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:09:57 pm

Likewise, FCP7 has everything I need NOW. With the bonus feature of getting to keep the 400 bones in my wallet. Or $1500 if I decided to make the jump to CS5.

My first reaction was that I would not be or would not have been able to finish any of my current or many of my past projects with the same finesse or speed with FCX in its current state. I'd define that as a downgrade.

So, I'm not jumping ship on Final Cut just yet. 7 does everything I need and will continue to at least into the immediately foreseeable future. But I'm not giving Apple my money until FCX at least does enough of the basic things I've always relied on Final Cut to do. (Or until my curiosity gets the better of me...)


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Matt Callac
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:24:36 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Car analogy....

Yes it has a great engine and a transmission with a few gears missing. But it has no wheels."


Lets use the car analogy. Yes it doesn't have wheels yet. It's a simulator. They gave you a simulator to learn to drive the car, and you're complaining that it doesn't have wheels.

You're pissed because the wrote better software, but you can't use it professionally yet. Even if it had all of the features you needed, you still wouldn't be able to use it professionally because you don't know how to use it yet. it's new software. You might be able to stumble through a project. They released this so when it does have all necessary features, you aren't starting from scratch, you've got a solid base b/c you've had it for a few months.

-mattyc


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gary adcock
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:27:09 pm

[Matt Callac] "Lets use the car analogy. Yes it doesn't have wheels yet. It's a simulator. They gave you a simulator to learn to drive the car, and you're complaining that it doesn't have wheels. "

excellent comment...

I am going to use this.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Paul Nordin
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 9:03:10 pm

Gary,

I'm having a hard time understanding your perspective. I admire your leadership of this forum and think your articles and tutorials rock. However, the holes in this release are horrendous for most of the serious post community.

If they needed more time to implement proper XML, EDL, vFX framework, third party hardware, etc. Why didn't they take it? Doing it the way they have has completely undermined my faith that their intentions for this product have anything to do with my version of Pro.

Perhaps you know more than I from your relationship with Apple. It would be really cool for Apple to let even a glimmer of their roadmap out of the bag. By their not doing so, in my mind they are placing FCP (with emphasis on PRO) in the same category as Color, Shake, etc. In other words, in Apple's minds we had a nice ride while it lasted, and the future is now with YouTube and iPads, becasue that's what they implemented first.

How is it possible to think otherwise?

_______________________
El Mundo Bueno Studios
Film * Audio
http://www.EMBstudios.com
Emeryville, CA
_______________________


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Craig Seeman
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 9:07:45 pm

[Paul Nordin] "If they needed more time to implement proper XML, EDL, vFX framework, third party hardware, etc. Why didn't they take it?"

On the other hand, if they did nothing or did nothing but "promise" a lot of people would have also moved on.

Given what I'm reading, we kinds getting FCPX Training Edition. For $299 and the likelihood they'll be adding key features, I'm OK with that if it means I have to use FCP7 for a few more months.

I least I can see, feel, play in the nursery until the thing grows up and I'll be able to hit the ground running at that point.



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gary adcock
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 9:55:12 pm

[Paul Nordin] "I'm having a hard time understanding your perspective. I admire your leadership of this forum and think your articles and tutorials rock. However, the holes in this release are horrendous for most of the serious post community.
"


I thought was really clear about the perspective Paul, and my "knee jerk reaction" to my first 24hrs with the App.

This is not in any way shape or form and upgrade to an exsiting product, so the reviews and commentary are treated with that in mind and in that manner - everyone here respects what I say because I try to be as honest about stuff as I can be.

I called out all the things it did not do for me and my workflows, I have said it was not a release for what I consider to be a professional editor. That being said, it does what apple says it supposed to do.

This is without a doubt an absolutely different application than any thing that has come before- I regret that apple did not call it something else.

I am going to keep my FCP 7 on my machines, but I am not going to set idlly by and not keep testing and looking at what is in store for FCPX.

I already have Avid and PPro on my systems, doesn't mean I am going stop using them either.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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Paul Nordin
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 10:07:18 pm

Fair enough Gary. I didn't mean it as a personal attack.

I've heard a theory that Apple will not write ANY I/O or third party support in FCPx. Rather leave 100% of that to vendors. Perhaps that's good in the long run. But I'm still at a loss for how Apple could create a NEW - from the ground up - NLE, that does not even have built in EDL for legacy purposes. Seems very arrogant. But, that's just me anthropomorphizing their marketing strategy for the product.

I look forward to using this when basic interface capabilities are available.

_______________________
El Mundo Bueno Studios
Film * Audio
http://www.EMBstudios.com
Emeryville, CA
_______________________


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cam khoury
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 10:49:55 pm

Gary, first I would like to thank you for your review of FCP X. It is vital that we move forward and embrace innovation no matter where it comes from and see FCP X in a positive light. I would like to take a moment and question your assertion that FCP X is not an upgrade given that FCS3 was removed from Apple's inventory list on the exact same day as FCP X's release. Along with the continuation of the venerable Final Cut name, something that branding gurus (Apple is indeed the king of branding) would frown on if it was in fact a different product, it seems to be a new version of the same product. I would also like to point out that, according to your statement that FCP X is not for the expert editor along with the discontinuation of FCS3, Apple no longer sells professional edit software. I have yet to try FCP X (you can be certain that I will) but this is a very disappointing development.

Cam Khoury
One Eyed Dog, LTD
oededit.com
248-613-8966


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gary adcock
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 11:24:54 pm

[cam khoury] "I would like to take a moment and question your assertion that FCP X is not an upgrade given that FCS3 was removed from Apple's inventory list on the exact same day as FCP X's release."

Cam.

I did not now that Apple was going to EOL (end of line) the previous version of FCS, yes that does change somethings but not alot, there are Boxes of software still available even if Apple is no longer selling them

I cannot call something an upgrade that does not require a previously installed (or serialised) version of the same app or is unable to open any previous project from any version.

If an upgrade is defined by allowing you to open a previous version of content from that App, then this is an upgrade from iMovie (project file FCPX can open) rather than FCP.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

http://blogs.creativecow.net/24640



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cam khoury
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:27:37 am

Gary, I would say that it represents either a major branding error or a huge deception by Apple.

It would be a major error since the brand is very well respected and using it for a completely new product would be unheard of in branding history. I suppose it would be like discontinuing a Mercedes C350 and branding a Smart Car with that same name and jacking up the price - completely illogical. It also expose them to the suggestion that Final Cut is no longer suitable for professional editors.

The deception is a little trickier but think it through. You take a brand name that has recognition and slip the baby brother (iMovie) of that product into the same slot as the big brother (FCP7). You can then get sales you would otherwise not have gotten had you introduced iMovie advanced, especially at $300. Use that revenue to support further development of the baby brother until it matures and equals or surpasses what big brother was.

There may be other explanations but I suppose we're all speculating. Better to move forward.


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Tom Daigon
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:41:52 pm

Wow, how cool.New software I cant use (to make a living). I think Apple has a lot in common with the "snake oil" saleman of the past ;-)

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Matt Callac
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:46:01 pm

[Tom Daigon] "Wow, how cool.New software I cant use (to make a living). I think Apple has a lot in common with the "snake oil" saleman of the past ;-)"

Why are you even in the FCP X forum today. All you've been doing is trying to stir the pot and tell people to go to Adobe and Avid.

-mattyc


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Tom Daigon
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 4:52:25 pm

As a long time FCP I here to participate in the dialog regarding FCP X.
And you're here to represent the Fanboy Police ? ;-)

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Pat Metal
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:03:04 pm

I am affraid of something... What if we can't run FCP 7 in the next OS update???


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Peter Blumenstock
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:03:38 pm

I have to say I agree with Tom and criticism is well deserved here since the old FCP simply isn't available for purchase anymore from Apple and it will slowly disappear from resellers, too.
So... what do I do if I need another license for a new edit suite in three month time? This is a very serious problem because for my particular workflow FCP X in its current state is 100 per cent unusable. It's the usual way Apple handles these things and I am getting seriously annoyed and angry at their information and product policy. Don't release it if it isn't ready for primetime. How hard can it be to implement tape capture and output?


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Matt Callac
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:06:11 pm

[Tom Daigon] "And you're here to represent the Fanboy Police ? ;-)"

No, but apparently you're the designated adobe/avid fanboy.

I understand you don't like FCPX and apparently don't think it's going to be "Pro Ready" anytime soon, I would just think as a forum leader you'd be more inclined to create discussions and keep order on the boards rather than run around convincing people to jump ship.

-mattyc


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Tom Daigon
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:44:01 pm

I guess that is some of the benefits of NOT being a forum leader. I get to express my views ;-)

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:11:58 pm

[Matt Callac] "Lets use the car analogy. Yes it doesn't have wheels yet. It's a simulator. They gave you a simulator to learn to drive the car, and you're complaining that it doesn't have wheels."

Well -- they're selling the simulator. And they stopped selling actual cars. And we have no idea when they're going to release the wheels to upgrade the simulator to an actual car.

Will FCPX ultimately be better than FCP? Probably -- eventually. Is it better today? Not even close. FCPX is not currently a viable candidate for many professional workflows. This leaves four options:
  • Continue using FCP7, and hope that the features you need make it to FCPX. You may ultimately have to choose between maintaining an old system just to run FCP7, and upgrading to FCPX to maintain compatibility with other software.
  • Switch to Adobe (which works today).
  • Switch to Avid (which works today).
  • Become platform agnostic, and bounce back and forth among FCP7, FCPX, Adobe, and Avid, depending on the needs of a particular project.



[Matt Callac] "They released this so when it does have all necessary features, you aren't starting from scratch, you've got a solid base b/c you've had it for a few months."

I disagree. They released it to start making money on it, and possibly to get a little paid beta testing. I don't know how many busy, working editors are going to spend lots of time noodling with FCPX so they'll be ready when (or if, for the cynical) FCPX catches up.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mike Molenda
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:46:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Become platform agnostic, and bounce back and forth among FCP7, FCPX, Adobe, and Avid, depending on the needs of a particular project.
"


Spoken like a DP. Is it better to shoot film? Red MX? XDCAM? DVCPro? DSLR? That all depends on what you're shooting. And a good DP would in theory be able to handle all of them.

It certainly isn't unreasonable to drop the $300-400 on new as-is FCX software for short "quickie" projects (what I've seen makes me expect FCPX will be a wondrous time saver for these sorts of things) and rely on CS5 or old installs of FCP7 for the meatier stuff.

The workflows that make handling projects up to and including 4K in FCP7 are still there. Adobe's subscription pricing lends itself perfectly to being a "when I need it" production suite. Because for bigger projects you're factoring your equipment needs into your pricing anyway, right?

So all hope is not lost (if it ever was to begin with)!


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Herb Sevush
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:49:29 pm

compound clips, magnetic timeline (all things I and many, many others have been clamoring for for years)

Show me one post in the last 5 years that asked for anything like a magnetic timeline or compound clips.

There were many thing people were clamoring for and might get with X, but in order to get them you have to loose something else equally important.

This is not a PRO application, at this point. I'll consider looking at X when it is. In the meantime if I need a 64 bit Pro NLE, I guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Scott Davis
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 6:12:00 pm

Do a search for synch or nesting and all the related problems with them. Magnetic timeline and compound clips are a means of addressing this. I don't disagree with you over the mind-boggling lack of absolute bedrock requirements for working in broadcast at this time. I personally think it was a big misstep to release FCP X at this time without them. Not sure what the thinking on that is.

Scott Davis
View Scott Davis's profile on LinkedIn



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Laura Scott
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 5:11:34 pm

"Release early, release often" is the current best practice followed in software. I hope that Apple will implement the features necessary for professional work sometime soon. (Hello, EDL, nice to see you, please do come in and make yourself at home!) Meanwhile I am going to sit tight and not make a panic jump to Adobe or Avid, as I've never used the former and the latter is just a tad pricey for my needs.

••• PINGV Creative


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Gabe Thorburn
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 21, 2011 at 7:52:19 pm

I wanted to download the pro applications update 2010-2 (the update to 7.0.3) to have a back up, but when you click on the download button it re-directs you to the new FCP X page!


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Paul Nordin
Re: my heart is sinking reading this
on Jun 22, 2011 at 12:51:26 am

Wow. That truly bites.

And with no upgrade of FCS3 projects to FCPX format, what happens in 1 year when a film comes back from the festival circuit and needs to be tweaked for distribution? If I have a hard drive crash, can I not reinstall FCP?

Scary

_______________________
El Mundo Bueno Studios
Film * Audio
http://www.EMBstudios.com
Emeryville, CA
_______________________


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