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What CAN it be used for?

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Erik Lundberg
What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 7:28:18 am

Right now, I'm thinking at the same time as I'm writing. So this could be nothing more than waste of bandwidth. Just to warn you.

FCP X now seemes to be a bit more viable (to say the least). Some things still keeps us from using it in our edit bays though. Basically the timeline operation, the (for now) undead way it plays with other apps (apart from SOME of the integrations with Motion, which is brilliant) and the limitations in working in a shared environment is my concerns at the moment for letting it be THE editing platform for us. Today we are totally in FCP Legacy Land. Apart from audio finishing, which is done in ProTools.

But what it does well, it does REALLY well.

We work basically with a lot of corporate productions, where everything is confined to a certain style manual/guide. Motions ability to create and use flexible title templates would make life SO much easier for us. Most of the stuff confined to said manuals are for web delivery, which also is a field of expertise for FCPX.

Although- we still have to use tape. Both for ingest and delivery at times. We still make productions for traditional broadcast. Those are seldom confined to the style guides mentioned earlier, but are delivered with built to purpose titles (often in After Effect) or with no titles at all.

So this is how I figure (right now) how things should be for us, when it's time to emigrate from FCP Legacy Land. Most likely during summer.

When we decide to move to another NLE for general editing, it will most likely NOT be to FCPX. More likely to Avid or PP (I'm at the moment leaning towards the former). But when the edits done in that NLE are locked down, the stuff going for style manual type of titles (and web delivery) goes for finishing in FCPX. That way we really don't have to bother much with the timeline (with bogged down long form and all), we get the functionality of FCPX in wich it excels, and we get good quality lay off to tape (which should be done primarily in Avid/PP/Whatever).

The price point says it's ok. A great titling tool for USD400 is fair. For that price we also get a decent chroma keyer, a multicam editor and stuff. Who knows, some day one of the NLEs might be the all in one.

Which are the pitfalls? Am I missing something? Am I just plain stupid?

Erik Lundberg

Technical Director, Media Technology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden


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Ben Scott
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 9:44:27 am

think this sounds very convoluted

FCPX is perfectly able as an editing package, yes avid has slightly better trimming for more experienced editors

if you are working on corporate work which I know goes through many changes/iterations I would say the magnetic timeline will save you a lot of time. if you are only ever doing basic audio mixes then FCPX is far faster than the competition. if you are doing multi format and multi cam productions FCPX is far better experience. graphics like you have noticed are much faster to create and cleaner looking in fcpx than fcp7 or avid/premiere.

I would also say it is crazy for your staff to learn 2 massive pieces of software to achieve the same outcome, go with one not 2.

if you need training in Avid or FCPX let me know, I work at an acrredited training centre called VET in London and we can assist.


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Walter Soyka
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 2:12:38 pm

[Ben Scott] "graphics like you have noticed are much faster to create and cleaner looking in fcpx than fcp7 or avid/premiere."

Why do you say that graphics are cleaner in FCPX than they are in FCP7, Avid, or Premiere?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Marvin Holdman
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 2:30:53 pm

Hi Erik,

I too, am wondering about how viable FCPX is going to be in a shared environment. It appears from the latest release that many issues are being addressed and that is encouraging. That said, I only have indirect knowledge of this update and am relying on feedback from this forum to evaluate the ups and downs of this latest release.

As for it's viability in a shared environment, I am hopeful that FCPX might be headed in a direction that will provide that ability. I am hoping to hear from some who are working with this latest release who might provide some insight on how 6 or more editors might share projects and media across a shared network. While I haven't seen anything i press release or user feedback regarding anything new in this release, perhaps there just hasn't been enough time.

It still appears that the eco-system development is in the earliest of phases for FCPX. While it might be useable as a task specific application (titler, web delivery vehicle, light duty pre-set encoder, ect.) I would tend to want to rely on applications with a bit more development at the moment. I think it's safe to say another year of development is going to change FCPX a great deal. I think it boils down to the question of whether you 1. Want to participate in Apple's great experiment and work with point zero software or 2. Want to build your business dependent workflows around more robust and developed software packages while waiting and seeing where the FCPX train is going.

I think many of us are dabbling with FCPX, when time permits, but still wouldn't jump in with both feet until a few more wrinkles are ironed out. All that being said, I'm starting to look forward to version 11.1. I think it's going to have some real promise for being a robust and viable application for many production needs.

Disclaimer - This is PURELY opinion and subject to complete debate.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Bret Williams
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 2:56:08 pm

I think you mean 10.1.1 You won't see 11 until the os is OS 11 (XI?)


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Marvin Holdman
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 3, 2012 at 4:13:24 pm

No, I did mean 11. If Apple continues on there present course, it's going to be about then that a stable, feature rich application will be considered again, for a great many of us.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Bret Williams
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 3, 2012 at 4:31:53 pm

So, about 6 years? That would be my prediction for version 11. But I tell ya, it's starting to turn into a powerful app. Great logging, fast, good keyer and audio fx. Just a really horrible editing interface. IMO of course. I can handle everything else, but that interface with the storyline, magnetic and lack of tracks was a big fail I think. Actually, I think much of it was designed with the idea of the iPad version in mind .


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Erik Lundberg
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 5:16:06 pm

[Marvin Holdman] "1. Want to participate in Apple's great experiment and work with point zero software or 2. Want to build your business dependent workflows around more robust and developed software packages while waiting and seeing where the FCPX train is going."

Marvin- I agree with what you say, but I really like to have it all. I'd say FCPX has to grow up a bit (more) before I can trust it as the sole editing application for us. On the other hand I really really want FCPX to mature into a brilliant AND robust editing application for ALL purposes. It won't get there if nobody uses it. Then it'll merely die a quick and gruesome death. So I'm all for using it, but I will try and find where it does good things to our workflow, and keep it out of other areas, where other tools are the goto solution.

Erik Lundberg

Technical Director, Media Technology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden


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Marvin Holdman
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 3, 2012 at 4:22:36 pm

Erik Lundberg - "It won't get there if nobody uses it."

While I understand the sentiment, I would have to disagree. by all appearances, Apple will continue it's slow growth with this product even though sales must be leveling off by now. Pretty clear given this release that they know they have a ways to go before they get back the market share that was just lost. For many facilities and business's, the release of FCPX has been a nightmare. As such, many will not consider the program again for quite some time (thus my comment on version 11). I too hope they can one day regain their stature as an eminent NLE, but much as they told their existing market "you are on your own now" they will have to be on their own while they bring back this product to relevance. If they were soley dependent on this application to keep the company alive, I would agree with you, but this is a small, small part of their picture and they have the means to continue development regardless of sales. I think their history with FCS is enough to justify FCPX's continued development and am happy to see them doing it, but it certainly doesn't depend on the professional market anymore.

I'm certain there are those who would say FCPX opens a whole new market segment, but I would have to wonder just how big that will be in the end. After all, no matter how good the software, the craft of video always takes time. While many more may be able to afford the $300 ticket to ride this new train, most will not have the time to do it and that is what will define success in the new and broader market.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Erik Lundberg
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 4, 2012 at 7:49:33 am

[Marvin Holdman] "If they were soley dependent on this application to keep the company alive, I would agree with you, but this is a small, small part of their picture and they have the means to continue development regardless of sales."

Or they wont. I agree they have the means. But you don't get to earn more money than anybody else by working on stuff nobody uses. I don't think thats the SOP for apple. If there's no benifit (or expected benifit) to the stock holders for developing, if they don't feel the demand, if nobody cared enough to use it, write wish lists for the next product update? If all they met was (nearly) no sales and silence from the target market segment (very unlikely, I know), would they hesitate? I hardly think so.

And- If we didn't use it, REALLY used it, under real conditions, if all this software got tested in was in lab, would you really trust the development team to make it into a state of the art NLE? I'm not sure.

Erik Lundberg

Technical Director, Media Technology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden


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Herb Sevush
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 2:44:23 pm

[Ben Scott] "if you are doing multi format and multi cam productions FCPX is far better experience."

How can you know that, are you a Beta tester? Have you cut a bunch of multi-cam shows, has anyone? I agree that the function list is excellent and the demo's are nice, as far as they go, but don't you think it would be better to actually use this stuff in battle conditions before anointing it?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Erik Lundberg
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 5:34:46 pm

[Ben Scott] "think this sounds very convoluted

FCPX is perfectly able as an editing package, yes avid has slightly better trimming for more experienced editors"


I'm not sure it would be convoluted at all. The choice of editing platform should be done based on the needs of the project, at the current stage. Mostly, the things we really would benefit from FCPXs capabilities are in the final stages of the project. The mindset of the editing process in that stage (after lock down) is a quite different one than earlier on in the process. I'm not confident enough (at this stage, I should add- this will most certainly change) to let our entire workflow to FCPX. And I am rather certain we can benifit from both tools either way.


[Ben Scott] "I would also say it is crazy for your staff to learn 2 massive pieces of software to achieve the same outcome, go with one not 2."

Crazy? I don't think so. Most of our editors has previous experience with MC, and I'm confident in their abilities to adapt and learn new things too. So I'm not really worried there. I'm certain some will like FCPX more and others be in favour of MC. In the end- the tool that gets the job done will be used. Why not benefit from the pros of both, and the cons of none?

This said (again)- in a few months- I might have changed my mind about this completely, as things change and evolve. And when taking this sort of mixed workflow (with multiple NLEs doing different tasks for the same project) to battle- it might prove to be a disaster. But I'm tempted. We've done similar things in the past (working on FCP and SphereOUS in the same project) with mixed results, but technology has improved, and I think I'm more skilled now than then to make informed decicions.

On the other hand- they say you're experienced when you recognise mistakes as you do them all over again.

Erik Lundberg

Technical Director, Media Technology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden


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Richard Herd
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 5:39:28 pm

[Erik Lundberg] "Mostly, the things we really would benefit from FCPXs capabilities are in the final stages of the project."

Interesting, because I find the keyword feature to be the best thing about X, and it is the earliest part of editing, for me.


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Erik Lundberg
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 7:37:52 pm

[Richard Herd] "Interesting, because I find the keyword feature to be the best thing about X, and it is the earliest part of editing, for me."

I agree that the database structure and asset management parts of FCPX is a very good step on the way of a really nice part of the deal. But I'd say it's one of those things that need to mature a bit. And, as we don't use only one tool, we'd need an asset management that was equally good for (and translated well into) the other software we're using. Metadata and structuring is only good if you can keep it consistent through the workflow. And I'm not convinced that we're able to keep such a consistency going in and out of FCPX. And several editors/producers/decisionmakers should be able to contribute to keywords and metadata for the same assets. Asset management should not be decentralized.

But for an intra-software organisational tool- the keywording and asset management of FCPX works great. If only...

Erik Lundberg

Technical Director, Media Technology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden


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James Mortner
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 7:06:22 pm

[Ben Scott] "I would also say it is crazy for your staff to learn 2 massive pieces of software to achieve the same outcome, go with one not 2."

Thats doesn't sound crazy to me mate !


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alban egger
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 5:41:22 pm

What CAN it be used for?
Well, pretty much anything. Coming from FCP7 there is not much left that FCP7 did better.
SDI-Monitoring is still BETA, andOMF Export is still not the way it should be, but other than that FCP7 is left behind in the dust since version 10.0.0 due to the 64-bit architecture; not even speaking of 10.0.3..... The most important feature it brought was (to me) the re-linking of offline media.

AVID has good trimming tools especially for narrative editing. No doubt. If in the end it really makes you faster depends on your projects.

We have used FCPX now on many different projects: 52-minute documentaries with 7500+ clips for broadcast, music videos, corporate videos, loop-DVDs that have a revolving intro every day, LIVE-PRODUCTION-LOWER THIRDS.......you name it.

It worked faster and easier than anything I ever used in EVERY project we tried since July.
We are not sitting 200 days a year and edit movies or shortfilms. But me and my partner did movies and short films (on FCP7) also. But we have different demands by the week, because clients from multi-million corporations to the small bakery next door are coming up with new ideas all the time.
And there is no...."uhm...that might take longer".....FCPX is so flexible and offers unique tools like skimming, audition, Motion-FX imports, keyword-bins ...the list goes on and on and nobody who didn´t really "get it" will understand what´s under the hood there. It can be used for everything and not only narrative editing....for that you might stick to AVID forever. But if you have changing demands in a fast-changing industry below Hollywood, then FCPX might be an option.
Those are my 2 cents and if you just hate the magnetic timeline then by all means....stay away.....



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Herb Sevush
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 5:55:37 pm

[alban egger] "SDI-Monitoring is still BETA, andOMF Export is still not the way it should be, but other than that FCP7 is left behind in the dust since version 10.0.0 due to the 64-bit architecture;"

Let's not overdo it - can you paste FX between clips in X? Are there out of sync markers and do they allow you to snap clips back in sync with 1 click? I think that list goes on for awhile.

Not trying to take anything away from X, and you are absolutely correct in that Legacy is a 32 bit dinosaur in many ways, but to say X is as fully featured, right at this moment, as any of the major NLE's is stretching it a bit far.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Lance Bachelder
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 6:45:04 pm

FX pasting is a breeze. Opt + Command +V. No you don't get a big list like FCP7 but you just mentioned FX, which I'm doing a lot of right now color timing a show with Tonalizer (just freakin awesome) and Color Board.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Herb Sevush
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 7:23:42 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "No you don't get a big list like FCP7 but you just mentioned FX, "

Your right, I only mentioned FX, you got me.

Of course the point was that FCP7 has some features still lacking in X, so are you saying that the FCPX copy attributes feature is as robust as the one found in Legacy, because I have heard many complaining that it wasn't ?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Lance Bachelder
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 8:14:17 pm

I didn't say it was as robust - it's simply a copy FX function which I'm currently using for color timing and it's working well. Yeah it would be great to have the full list like legacy - let's hope they can add some of the back in a future update but maybe some of it is moved to a different method - haven't got that deep in X yet but liking everything so far.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Brent Cook
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 9:27:40 pm

Is there a way to copy and paste the parameters of a single effect? I needed that today and couldn't figure out how to do it. I know the cmd-opt-V, but that takes the entire set of effects from your source clip and applies them to the destination clip replacing whatever effects were on the destination clip. I needed to take a single effect from the source clip and ADD it to the effects already applied to my destination clip. Possible? A search here yielded no answer to this specifically. Sorry if this is too off topic, but since copying effects was brought up...


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 5, 2012 at 3:39:36 pm

You mean in FCP7? Select the FX you want to copy in the Viewer>Effects tab of one clip and paste in the Viewer>Effects tab of another clip.


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alban egger
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 8:55:58 pm

Herb, we know we are on opposites sides of that bench ;-)

But I can give you a few features none of the "major NLEs" do that FCPX does great. And I simply never had the need for out of sync markers yet. I thought like you at first, but I have yet to get something out of sync in a way that I wasn´t able to snap it back in sync in a second (shortcut "N" is still turning snapping on). Mind you with magnetic timeline you don´t worry much about what happens on track 7 20 minutes down the timeline. It will be alright whatever you do in minute 3.

You are right about the pasting of effects though. Instead of selecting before you deselect after....not very elegant this workflow and it sometimes can mess something up. Agreed.

But it doesn't happen often: since the color correction tool is so strong I have shortcuts to paste only that colourcorrection-effect from the clip before, two clips before or three clips before. It only copy-pastes the colourboard and leaves all other effects alone. Since color is the one effect that I copy pasted most in FCP7, that´s my workaround in X. You have to find these gems in the "command list", but they exist.

To say "FCPX does´t do this, which I used daily" doesn´t work anymore. Because FCPX does so many things FCP7 never did and AVID does´t do for a while. You probably also find tons of features in Avi that FCP7 never did and vice versa. They all have their weaknesses and certain strengths. FCPX´s strength is versatility.

The question for me is not "what did I do how before", but "how can I do it now and how can I get better results faster". Believe me, I never said "Wow, that´s clever" so often about a tool.



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Herb Sevush
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 9:17:48 pm

[alban egger] "I can give you a few features none of the "major NLEs" do that FCPX does great."

I have no problem with any of the things you say in this post. I am sure that FCPX has many great, unique features. It's just that I have appointed myself head of the hyperbole police, and when you made the statement in the previous post that other than OMF and external monitoring there is nothing left for Legacy to teach FCPX I would beg to differ. I think that is overstating the case. Maybe in a year or so, but not yet.

Anyhow in about a month or so I intend to give X a thorough tryout, probably try cutting the last of my 26 episodes with it, and then I will have more to say. I might even come to agree with you, stranger things have happened.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Richard Herd
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 9:56:41 pm

[Herb Sevush] "the last of my 26 episodes with it,"

Now, I'm trying to talk you out of that. So I decided to cut a film for a first time director (long time writer), and it took me an additional 3 hours just to get the thing moving with any inertia, what would normally take 15 minutes. I spent a lot of time reading the manual, just to wrap my head around "events" and then bit of time to actually do it. There was a bit of swearing involved.

Cutting an episode, with a deadline? Oh man, you are brave.


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Herb Sevush
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 2, 2012 at 10:01:56 pm

[Richard Herd] "Cutting an episode, with a deadline? Oh man, you are brave."

I have long since learned that I cannot learn anything this tough without the fear of imminent bankruptcy as motivation. Besides, I'm also the post supervisor and I'll make sure to add a week to the schedule.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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alban egger
Re: What CAN it be used for?
on Feb 5, 2012 at 1:14:19 pm

[Richard Herd] "I spent a lot of time reading the manual, just to wrap my head around "events" and then bit of time to actually do it. There was a bit of swearing involved. "

Well, I ALWAYS started new NLEs with some sort of a real-life project and not "playing around". At the same time I suggest one does "play around" for a week first anyway. But by playing around I mean first of all watch tutorials or better get someone who knows the software to show you the basics. And then try to re-do a project you recently did. Just see the different approaches, because whenever you switch it will need a step back and look from outside the box.

And sometimes you might come to the conclusion that it isn´t for you anyway.



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