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Craig Seeman
Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 26, 2012 at 10:05:12 pm

Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks. 24TBytes.
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/26/macworld-2012-wdc-shows-off-mybook-thun...
No mention of price but you really want this over making the downpayment on your new house.



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Steve Connor
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 26, 2012 at 10:12:30 pm

Ooooh!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Paul Jay
Re: aid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 26, 2012 at 10:40:30 pm

And if 1 crashes. Bye bye data.


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Craig Seeman
Re: aid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 26, 2012 at 11:08:29 pm

You mean you're not looking forward to the LaCie version?



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Shane Ross
Re: aid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 26, 2012 at 11:45:56 pm

Yeah...sorry, RAID 0 is so 5 years ago. Now there are plenty of RAID 5 (protected/fast) options out there that RAID 0 makes no sense. Skip this and get the Promise TB Raid...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steve Connor
Re: aid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 26, 2012 at 11:53:43 pm

Doesn't the WD Duo do RAID5 across both it's drives?

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Shane Ross
Re: aid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 1:27:33 am

RAID 5 requires at least 3 drives. Two drive protected RAID is Raid 1. And even if you RAID 0 four drives that are RAID 1, if you lose one of the units, the RAID 0 is broken

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Harlan
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 12:29:37 am

Pretty cool.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 7:49:06 am

I think it's pretty crazy seeing those speeds with off-the-shelf gear on an iMac. Practical? Not really. But neither are show cars but that doesn't mean they aren't fun to gawk at. Geez, buncha wet blankets up in here. ;)


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 1:25:29 pm

You aren't allowed to be excited about technology anymore, especially anything that has to do with thunderbolt, or anything that's brand new.

It's passé.

By the way, you could easily set those up raid 1+0 (or raid 10).

Each my book is raid 1, then raid 0 the whole thing together. If one of the my books loses a drive, simply replace and rebuild. It won't effect the raid 0 structure of it as the raid 1 protects it. This is actually a very secure way to work due to the amount of redundancy. Won't be the fastest, though.

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 1:33:11 pm

I should add that raid1 halves your total capacity.

If each one of those my books has 6TB total, the capacity will be 3TB after the raid1 set.

The 24TB shown would be 12 TB protected.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 2:46:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You aren't allowed to be excited about technology anymore, especially anything that has to do with thunderbolt, or anything that's brand new. It's passé."

Even if this is tongue-in-cheek, I don't think it's a fair criticism of Thunderbolt criticism. You can be excited if you want, but sincerely, what is it that you would be excited about here?

There's nothing new about daisy chaining drives or soft-RAIDing them.

The advantage of the huge amount of storage is offset by RAID 0's increased risk of failure.

The speeds from this Frankenstein array aren't significantly higher than what you can get with a Promise R6 with RAID 5, and they are on par with 8-spindle MiniSAS arrays, also running RAID 5.

You may be surprised to hear that I am actually excited about fast storage with Thunderbolt -- it's a critical part of doing "real" work on an iMac or MBP -- but I wouldn't touch this particular setup with a 10-foot pole. What's wrong with reserving excitement for a storage system (like the Promise R6, or any of the other RAID enclosures that will soon feature Thunderbolt) that you can actually trust with your production?

Is it just cool that you can build your own high-peformance RAID from parts you'll be able to buy at any Walmart or Best Buy? I'm not trying to be a jerk or a wet blanket, but I would hate to see someone actually build one of these based on out-of-context cheerleading from respected industry pros here, then lose their data because a drive crashed. This deserves context: it's fast, but it's very risky, and there are other fast solutions available which are way less risky.


[Jeremy Garchow] "By the way, you could easily set those up raid 1+0 (or raid 10). Each my book is raid 1, then raid 0 the whole thing together. If one of the my books loses a drive, simply replace and rebuild. It won't effect the raid 0 structure of it as the raid 1 protects it. This is actually a very secure way to work due to the amount of redundancy."

Yes and no. This will offer you protection against the failure of any single spindle in any of the four sets -- or up to four drive failures, if they are the right four drives -- but there are other significant failure modes with multiple points and no redundancy other than the disks themselves. If any one of the RAID controllers fail, the whole array fails. If any one of the TB controllers or cables fails, the whole array fails. If any one of the power supplies fails, the whole array fails. Even with RAID 10, I'd be nervous about the safety of my data.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 3:29:16 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Even if this is tongue-in-cheek, I don't think it's a fair criticism of Thunderbolt criticism. You can be excited if you want, but sincerely, what is it that you would be excited about here? "

Again, this is a tech demo showing some capability, and showing that Thunderbolt actually makes a difference. Nothing more, nothing less. It's OK to be excited.

[Walter Soyka] "There's nothing new about daisy chaining drives or soft-RAIDing them."

You can't daisy chain Sata. You could only do it with fw800, not very handy when the bus is maxed at less than ethernet speeds. We've talked about this, but yes the idea isn't new new, but again, this is all new due to the brand new thunderbolt connection. This setup at these speeds hasn't been possible in a mobile environment. It is new, and in my opinion, pretty exciting.

[Walter Soyka] "The advantage of the huge amount of storage is offset by RAID 0's increased risk of failure.

The speeds from this Frankenstein array aren't significantly higher than what you can get with a Promise R6 with RAID 5, and they are on par with 8-spindle MiniSAS arrays, also running RAID 5."


This wasn't a Promise demo. I was excited about that one too on another thread, and the excitement also got checked there.

Also, it's obvious that you don't take little setups on the road, or capture footage on set, or need real time on set playback to a multitude of monitors. Thunderbolt expands this capability greatly, and you need a suitcase and not a mini van.

[Walter Soyka] "You may be surprised to hear that I am actually excited about fast storage with Thunderbolt -- it's a critical part of doing "real" work on an iMac or MBP -- but I wouldn't touch this particular setup with a 10-foot pole. What's wrong with reserving excitement for a storage system (like the Promise R6, or any of the other RAID enclosures that will soon feature Thunderbolt) that you can actually trust with your production?"

See above.

[Walter Soyka] "Is it just cool that you can build your own high-peformance RAID from parts you'll be able to buy at any Walmart or Best Buy? I'm not trying to be a jerk or a wet blanket, but I would hate to see someone actually build one of these based on out-of-context cheerleading from respected industry pros here, then lose their data because a drive crashed. This deserves context: it's fast, but it's very risky, and there are other fast solutions available which are way less risky."

If setting up these in Raid10, you are more secure than raid0. People work with much less security, just hang around these forums enough and you will see. If this offers a lower cost alternative for people that don't want to spend much on a proper raid, this is an alternative. Just because you wouldn't use it, doesn't mean it's not viable. It's not necessarily the way I would work, but that doesn't mean it's not an option. People want cheap, and if this is cheap enough to offer a modicum of security, it's worth it.

Also, it was mentioned that setting these up in raid1+0 would not work, when in actuality, it will. The old Xserves RAIDs were Raid 5+0 (or raid 50). You could afford to lose two drive (one on each raid 5 stripe), and if you did the raid0 stripe didn't break, same idea here with the MyBooks.

[Walter Soyka] "Yes and no. This will offer you protection against the failure of any single spindle in any of the four sets -- or up to four drive failures, if they are the right four drives -- but there are other significant failure modes with multiple points and no redundancy other than the disks themselves. If any one of the RAID controllers fail, the whole array fails. If any one of the TB controllers or cables fails, the whole array fails. If any one of the power supplies fails, the whole array fails. Even with RAID 10, I'd be nervous about the safety of my data."

This is true with any lower cost raid, even the promise raids. The promise raids allow one drive failure (or two with raid6), this allows 4 drive failures across 8 drives. Yes, there's more points of failure in this setup in power supplies and raid controllers, but that doesn't make it a no-go.

I would love to tell people to go buy a big ole raid with redundant power supplies. I've tried, it just doesn't fly. If this allows access to safer storage to more people at a decent cost, then I'm all for it. Even two of these together @ raid10 6TB is not all that bad. Of course people should know the risks, there's always risk with gear failure. In a setup like this, I think raid10 is better than nothing, and it won't be a "downpayment on your new house".

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 4:26:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Again, this is a tech demo showing some capability, and showing that Thunderbolt actually makes a difference. Nothing more, nothing less. It's OK to be excited."

Fair. I was excited about the R6. Sizzle core diversion aside, I was excited about last week's MBA/Promise/Sonnet/RED Rocket/BMD demo. Thunderbolt has plenty of legitimate uses we can all be excited about.

Those demos were about actual, workable solutions, though. As a demo, this is all well and good, but the suggestion that people should actually spend money for this setup without thoroughly understanding its risks doesn't sit well with me.

I am honestly not trying to rain on your parade, but I don't see that this proves anything that the R6 hasn't already proven. I also don't see the need to get excited about every new demo just because it involves Thunderbolt.


[Jeremy Garchow] "This setup at these speeds hasn't been possible in a mobile environment. It is new, and in my opinion, pretty exciting."

Under what circumstances would you use or recommend an 8-spindle RAID 0?

The R6 is almost as fast, is a little bit smaller, and offers at least a little redundancy.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, it's obvious that you don't take little setups on the road, or capture footage on set, or need real time on set playback to a multitude of monitors. Thunderbolt expands this capability greatly, and you need a suitcase and not a mini van."

I do a lot of work on the road, but remember, my work benefits from sizzle core beasts. When I travel, I have to make a trade-off between portability and power. Some jobs I'll work on a laptop, others I'll ship a workstation ahead or rent one locally, and others I'll work on my laptop, connect via VPN and render remotely at the office, then download the renders.

I am excited about the R6 and products like it because they'll give me fast, safe storage on the road in a small package. I'm not excited about this demo, because it would give me fast, risky storage on the road in four small packages.


[Jeremy Garchow] "This wasn't a Promise demo. I was excited about that one too on another thread, and the excitement also got checked there."

I remember the thread. You suggested that with more spindles, Thunderbolt could allow significantly faster speeds than the R6 was delivering. I pointed out that all the 4x PCIe RAID controllers top out around 800 MB/s, and that the faster ones run on 8x PCIe. Thunderbolt extends 4x PCIe, not 8x.

I also disputed the likelihood of CPU and RAM expansion via Thunderbolt, because based on current system architectures, it's the rough equivalent of a flying car or a personal jet pack -- a cool idea that just isn't coming any time soon.

I am not trying to check your excitement, nor am I trying to minimize what's possible with Thunderbolt -- 800 MB/s RAID is fast, full stop, whether it's on a laptop or a desktop! Thunderbolt lets you do things on a laptop that you used to need a desktop for, and that's huge. It's a legitimate game-changer.

I'm just trying to keep the conversation around Thunderbolt grounded in reality. We shouldn't dismiss reason and practicality for speculation and fantasy just because we can extend 4x PCIe outside the case and do more with our laptops.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Yes, there's more points of failure in this setup in power supplies and raid controllers, but that doesn't make it a no-go."

Agreed. Everyone can and should make their own decisions. If someone wants this system, they should buy it -- but don't you think it's valuable to someone considering this to hear about both its strengths and weaknesses?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 4:50:23 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Under what circumstances would you use or recommend an 8-spindle RAID 0? "

When you have two of them to make a Raid1. I din't recommend raid0, I recommend raid 10.

[Walter Soyka] "The R6 is almost as fast, is a little bit smaller, and offers at least a little redundancy."

No sh*t. But if you give a person the option, two MyBooks, and a promise raid and they want cheap, which are they going to buy? The answer is different from what they should buy.

[Walter Soyka] "I am excited about the R6 and products like it because they'll give me fast, safe storage on the road in a small package. I'm not excited about this demo, because it would give me fast, risky storage on the road in four small packages."

As I said, just because it's not for you doesn't mean it's not viable.

[Walter Soyka] "I remember the thread. You suggested that with more spindles, Thunderbolt could allow significantly faster speeds than the R6 was delivering. "

Umm, no. I didn't, but this post is not about that thread.

[Walter Soyka] "I also disputed the likelihood of CPU and RAM expansion via Thunderbolt, because based on current system architectures, it's the rough equivalent of a flying car or a personal jet pack -- a cool idea that just isn't coming any time soon."

That's not what we are talking about here. That was a totally called out spitball idea, Walter. Seriously. I flagged it and you still bring it up. I get it. It won't work today, and I knew it when I said it.

[Walter Soyka] "I'm just trying to keep the conversation around Thunderbolt grounded in reality. We shouldn't dismiss reason and practicality for speculation and fantasy just because we can extend 4x PCIe outside the case and do more with our laptops."

I'd say the exact opposite. Let's keep it in reality. These demos are real, they are happening. Two of those MyBooks striped raid 10 is a reality. I've done this exact setup with sata and fw800 and it works great. Thunderbolt will allow even more access/speed/quality.

[Walter Soyka] "Agreed. Everyone can and should make their own decisions. If someone wants this system, they should buy it -- but don't you think it's valuable to someone considering this to hear about both its strengths and weaknesses?"

There's also true and false. Someone brought up that striping these together raid10 and losing a drive would break the whole stripe. That's false.

I've been around long enough to know that people will hear exactly hat they want to hear, which usually means they will pay what they want to pay and nothing more. I said that if this setup is to be used, raid1 is necessary, and if the price of these is fair, then it's an option that is better than just buying a mybook and going raid0.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 5:09:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "No sh*t. But if you give a person the option, two MyBooks, and a promise raid and they want cheap, which are they going to buy? The answer is different from what they should buy.
"


They'd probably buy the MyBooks in such scenario, but that's not what was shown in the demo. It was 4 MyBooks, not 2, in Raid0, and the comments related to the sense or nonsense of such a setup. I haven't seen a price for those drives yet but I assume four of them plus over 200 bucks for the cables... probably not too far away from the Promise Raid.
And, just in general, nobody trying to put a damper on TB as per your suggestion. Glad you're excited. People including me just questioned the assumption that it makes a tower redundant. That's a totally different story.
One of those MyBooks connected via TB, at a reasonable price - great. Four Mybooks in Raid1, 0, or 10... not so great in "my book".


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 5:13:58 pm

Oy. You just don't understand.


it's OK, I'm on my back peeing on my tail. You all win, I am completely wrong.

Good night.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 5:39:08 pm

It's seem people don't value "proof of concept" demonstrations.
Somewhere, someday, this is going to save someone's tail on a job where they don't have another option.
That daisy chaining works that well and Raid0 can be supported, that such large capacity can be handled this way is significant.

There's often a "best" way to do something. There are also jobs in which the "best" way simply isn't available for various reasons ranging from budget to equipment. Sometimes all you have is what you can cobble together with what you have. Being able to do it is better than not. Knowing that TB and a drive series often available in the neighborhood office supply or computer store, is going to help someone some day.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 5:53:53 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It's seem people don't value "proof of concept" demonstrations."

Fair, Craig. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have posted this or that it isn't a good topic to discuss here, but I am saying that discussing the cons as well as the pros is fair game and part of the purpose of this forum.

I'll go back to my corner now.

It's probably foolish on my part, but I guess I hadn't thought of this as a concept that needed proving. Why wouldn't this work? Thunderbolt lets you daisy-chain drives. Mac OS X lets you create RAID sets from attached disks. It would have been exceptional if this didn't work.


[Craig Seeman] "Knowing that TB and a drive series often available in the neighborhood office supply or computer store, is going to help someone some day."

And hopefully knowing that using them in RAID 10 is safer than RAID 0 will help them, too.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 6:16:03 pm

[Walter Soyka] "It's probably foolish on my part, but I guess I hadn't thought of this as a concept that needed proving."

Keep in mind such staging is for public marketing purposes. There's a lot of people out there outside of hardcore geekdom, even editors and production people, who still aren't fully aware of Thunderbolt's possibilities.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 5:25:15 pm

Jeremy, please accept my apology. I was rude in my previous reply to you and I confused a couple threads 8x PCIe RAID cards, attributing comments to you that you didn't make. I was wrong.

[Jeremy Garchow] "As I said, just because it's not for you doesn't mean it's not viable."

I'm not suggesting it's not viable. It'll work beautifully until the moment it fails. All hard drives fail -- it's just a matter if when, not if.

I'm saying that anyone considering it should understand the risks inherent in an 8-spindle RAID 0 array, Thunderbolt or otherwise. This system greatly magnifies risk, and anyone who stumbles across this thread and finds that system tempting should be aware of those risks.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I'd say the exact opposite. Let's keep it in reality. These demos are real, they are happening. Two of those MyBooks striped raid 10 is a reality. I've done this exact setup with sata and fw800 and it works great. Thunderbolt will allow even more access/speed/quality."

I could get behind a dual MyBook RAID 10 system on a budget. Your solution is reasonable and practical.

But this thread is about a quad MyBook RAID 00 (if there is such a thing) system. The original demo, unlike the previous Promise demo or the MBA demo, is not a good model for people to emulate without fully understanding the risks.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Someone brought up that striping these together raid10 and losing a drive would break the whole stripe. That's false."

Shane brought it up, but he was referring to a unit, which I took to mean the two-drive RAID 1 enclosure, not an individual drive within it.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I've been around long enough to know that people will hear exactly hat they want to hear, which usually means they will pay what they want to pay and nothing more. I said that if this setup is to be used, raid1 is necessary, and if the price of these is fair, then it's an option that is better than just buying a mybook and going raid0."

I agree with all that!

Again, Jeremy, I am sorry for flying off the handle. Maybe it's my own bias, but I don't want to see Thunderboltmania lead to users adopting bad solutions. Thunderbolt will enable plenty of good solutions, and it's cool to see what it can do, but it's not a panacea.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 9:50:18 pm

It's all good, Walter.

Yes, there are risks and I went over them. A promise array doesn't guarantee data security either. A blown power supply or raid card to take one of those out just as easily.

Machines fail.

4 of these enclosures at raid0 is risky, 2 of these drive at raid10 is not so risky, and actually sort of practical for some people, which is why I decided to post here. Silly me.

Tech demos serve to show you what is possible with the technology. A smart person will see that demo and figure out the best real world way to utilize it.

Supposedly, ginsu knives can cut an aluminum can, and then skin a tomato in the same motion.

It is up to me to figure out if I will be ingesting aluminum bits in my tomato sauce, or not.

Hopefully everyone still has a sense of humor.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 7:20:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You aren't allowed to be excited about technology anymore, especially anything that has to do with thunderbolt, or anything that's brand new. "

I like new. I did notice that these drives are $799 each, so we're looking at $3,200 in drives plus the cables. Somebody mentioned $400 in cables. If that's true, were looking at an investment of $3,600 for a raid zero array. Interesting, but I think the drives need to come down a bit...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Steve Connor
Re: Raid0 by daisy chaining 4 WDC Thunderbolt MyBooks
on Jan 27, 2012 at 7:22:51 pm

[Mitch Ives] "but I think the drives need to come down a bit."

They always do......eventually!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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