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Steve Connor
MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 1:52:45 pm







Interesting discussion with a focus on Avid and FCPX

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Walter Soyka
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 5:12:32 pm

A very nice and balanced look!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 5:44:32 pm

[Walter Soyka] "A very nice and balanced look!"

Agreed. Good discussion.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 6:36:23 pm

Thanks for posting this Steve.

I watched the whole thing.

I liked the part when he talked about learning different NLE's and that making you a better editor because it makes yo get out of your routine. I have seen that first hand.

It also reminded me how Apple was such a game changer.

The money kept most people out of the game early. You had to work in someone else's house.

When Apple put out FCP it ended up bringing the price down to the point where you could have your OWN house.

That's a huge difference.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 7:12:06 pm

[tony west] "I liked the part when he talked about learning different NLE's and that making you a better editor because it makes yo get out of your routine."

That's not a universal rule that applies to all editors Tony. The old adage "Jack of all trades, master of none," is something that applies in many trades, including post-production. Every situation is different, and one size does not fit all...

[tony west] "It also reminded me how Apple was such a game changer.

The money kept most people out of the game early. You had to work in someone else's house.

When Apple put out FCP it ended up bringing the price down to the point where you could have your OWN house."


The jury is still out on this one too. The democratization of video is not universally accepted by all as a positive. More is not always better...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:49:57 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "That's not a universal rule that applies to all editors Tony"



I hear you David, I don't know if anything applies to all editors though. For me I wouldn't even be on here if X had not come out. I have learned a lot by reading the insights of people who are very bright and talented.

Folks talk about a certain software, I get it and now my work is better for it.

I never heard of you David before X came out and now we are conversing.



[David Roth Weiss] ""Jack of all trades, master of none,""

I'm old enough to have seen Bo Jackson play.

How does a person get good enough to be a Pro in 2 sports when most people couldn't get to the minors in one?

Hard Work.

A lot of people don't want to work hard at one thing let alone 2. That comes down to each person.

How hard you are willing to work is how good you are.



[David Roth Weiss] "The democratization of video is not universally accepted by all as a positive. More is not always better..."

Agreed.

I go back and forth on this. As much as my ego likes working on the Olympics, if they say don't come back...........in my back pocket is "I don't need you"


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:07:18 pm

[tony west] "I never heard of you David before X came out and now we are conversing."

Credit The Cow Tony... I've been here since the very beginning, though it often seems like the beginning of time.

Just to give you a little perspective, a 1-gigabyte hard drive was $2000 when I first began using NLEs.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:18:53 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Credit The Cow Tony"

The cow is awesome, but I found you looking for info on X

and then I stayed : )



[David Roth Weiss] "$2000"

Wow!


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Chris Conlee
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 10:44:20 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Just to give you a little perspective, a 1-gigabyte hard drive was $2000 when I first began using NLEs"

I remember buying a 16MB SIMM for my Amiga which was $1000. Nobody could even DREAM of a gigabyte of RAM. Unfathomable. Can you imagine!?

Chris


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Jim Giberti
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 11:22:38 pm

[Chris Conlee] "I remember buying a 16MB SIMM for my Amiga which was $1000. Nobody could even DREAM of a gigabyte of RAM. Unfathomable. Can you imagine!?"

And to bring that full circle - yesterday I realized that one of our macs running fcpx only had 8 gigs of RAM and could handle 16. So I jumped on OWC to upgrade and found that it cost a whopping $95 for 16gb of RAM. Then I remembered literally using an old $40k Media 100 system to hold a door open when we were moving into our new studios.

So I extrapolated this overall trend and I figure by 2020 all of our systems should be free.

My calculations also show that by then fcpx will have evolved beyond any storylines at all, and Apple will provide all possible content, pre-edited, with a pulldown menu of styles: Drama, Doc, Soft Porn etc.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 12:29:53 am

[Jim Giberti] "My calculations also show that by then fcpx will have evolved beyond any storylines at all, and Apple will provide all possible content, pre-edited, with a pulldown menu of styles: Drama, Doc, Soft Porn etc."

I think they'll even be kind enough to live our lives for us.



On the other subject, my first video card was an Intel Action Media II that I paid something like three grand for, but it was capable of an amazing 30fps at 1/4 resolution. No fields mind you. But what a blow-mind that you could watch full speed video on a computer. Oh, and the AV hard disk I got to go with it--a whopping gig (or was it two) for a grand. NLE, though. THAT was a revolution.


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Jim Giberti
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 2:42:19 am

[Chris Harlan] "On the other subject, my first video card was an Intel Action Media II that I paid something like three grand for, but it was capable of an amazing 30fps at 1/4 resolution. No fields mind you. But what a blow-mind that you could watch full speed video on a computer. Oh, and the AV hard disk I got to go with it--a whopping gig (or was it two) for a grand. NLE, though. THAT was a revolution.
"


Hell, our first NLE was steam powered.


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Shawn Miller
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 1:32:39 am

"Nobody could even DREAM of a gigabyte of RAM. Unfathomable. Can you imagine!?"

Ha ha ha, yes I can imagine. My first computer was an Amiga 1000, it had 512 MB of RAM and a 5.25 inch floppy drive ... when it started getting long in the tooth, my friend advised my to upgrade it with 1 MB of RAM and a 20 MB hard drive... he said it would be like a whole new computer. I remember thinking that I would probably never fill up a whole 20MB drive. Ah, the good old days. :-)

Shawn



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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 7:35:58 pm

[tony west] "It also reminded me how Apple was such a game changer.

The money kept most people out of the game early. You had to work in someone else's house.

When Apple put out FCP it ended up bringing the price down to the point where you could have your OWN house.

That's a huge difference.
"


This is actually not true. There were many other early NLEs that were competitive in price with Avid, and some that were competitive in price with FCP. At the "Pro" level, D/Vision was a lot less expensive than Avid. As was Speed Razor, which was one of the first actual "broadcast quality" capable editors. It was extremely plausible to build your own house back in the late '90s. Of course, these were both on PCs so much of the Mac crowd may never have come across them.

The expensive thing--back in the '90s--was the digitizing/playback card because computers were not capable of data rates that could support video, and needed supplementary hardware to play back even low res "offline" video.

There were also a number of software only packages that matured just before or at about the same time as FCP. Premiere--for instance--which I found unusable until version 4.5/5, when it became a viable editor.

When Apple bought and released FCP, they did in fact change the industry, but as much by chasing smaller companies out as by attacking Avid's user base. Most of these companies are now unknown to newcomers who have the perception that it has always been some kind of Avid/Apple war. But that is just not true.


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Steve Connor
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 7:53:35 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Premiere--for instance--which I found unusable until version 4.5/5, when it became a viable editor."

Barely viable I had 18 months on it at that time and I don't look back too fondly!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:06:45 pm

[Steve Connor] "[Chris Harlan] "Premiere--for instance--which I found unusable until version 4.5/5, when it became a viable editor."

Barely viable I had 18 months on it at that time and I don't look back too fondly!
"


Oh, I agree! It certainly wouldn't have worked for me. And by today's standards it wouldn't have been viable at all. But, at the time, it was kind of cool that you could cut video without having to buy a card.


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Steve Connor
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:13:26 pm

[Chris Harlan] "it was kind of cool that you could cut video without having to buy a card."

That's true.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:27:53 pm

[Chris Harlan] "it was kind of cool that you could cut video without having to buy a card."

[Steve Connor] "That's true."

However guys, don't forget that loads of editors were, and still are, actually forced to think, and to learn, at least a modicum of video engineering, because many without that knowledge and expertise suddenly discovered that editing without hardware meant the human being at the controls had to make informed decisions.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:35:01 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "informed decisions."

What's them things?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:41:09 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "informed decisions."

[Chris Harlan] "What's them things?"

It's all them silly questions I've been answering on all those other forums for the last twenty years. :)

The perfect example is" "What's a codec?"

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:48:07 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "[David Roth Weiss] "informed decisions."

[Chris Harlan] "What's them things?"

It's all them silly questions I've been answering on all those other forums for the last twenty years. :)

The perfect example is" "What's a codec?""


You don't need to know that! All you got to do is poor the videos in, churn 'em up, then spray 'em out.


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Steve Connor
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:12:52 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "However guys, don't forget that loads of editors were, and still are, actually forced to think, and to learn, at least a modicum of video engineering, because many without that knowledge and expertise suddenly discovered that editing without hardware meant the human being at the controls had to make informed decisions.
"


Having spent 5 years as a linear online editor, I'm with you on that one.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:34:18 pm

[Steve Connor] "Having spent 5 years as a linear online editor, I'm with you on that one."

Just think back to the good old days Steve, when you brought in $450 an hour for your bosses for even the most simple online edit sessions.

Of course that probably didn't even begin to pay their overhead.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:03:25 pm

I have been Mac person for a long time so you may have something there.

This is how I remember it and feel free to correct me,

There were other NLE's out there but I don't remember them being "free"

When apple tossed in Imovie for "free" I think that put pressure on Avid. It was just a consumer product but you could cut a wedding or something simple on it.

I remember Avid putting out Avid "free" DV (I had that) I think Avid didn't want you to get your editing feet wet on that Imovie. If you wanted to get started, I think they wanted you on their product.

Chris, what was the price of Avid (roughly) before FCP came out?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:18:14 pm

[tony west] "what was the price of Avid (roughly) before FCP came out?"

Remember Tony, until very recently there was no such thing as Avid software "out of the box," because Avid systems required hardware.

For the record, when I initially contemplated buying my first NLE system, in the early 1990s, an Avid 8000 system, without any storage, was speced-out for me at $160K. Keep in mind, that was offline quality, with the final work product being an online-ready EDL.

The computers of the day couldn't handle anything close to online quality video, and storage at that time was so expensive you couldn't even think about online quality even had the computer been powerful enough to do the job.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:53:36 pm

Dang, that's a lot of money.

I'm trying to remember what a comparable Avid cost when i was looking to buy fcp 6.

I seem to remember fcp being a lot cheaper but I can't remember how much.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 10:08:51 pm

[tony west] "Dang, that's a lot of money.

I'm trying to remember what a comparable Avid cost when i was looking to buy fcp 6.

I seem to remember fcp being a lot cheaper but I can't remember how much"


Software only, it was about twice the price of FCS. Of course, if you were a student you could have gotten ver 3.1 for 3-500 bucks, or there abouts. So--half as much, or twice as much. Take your choice.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 10:16:49 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Software only, it was about twice the price of FCS"


That's kind of what I was talking about earlier Chris when I said it was a game changer.

It's not just me saying that, Steve Martin in that clip at about 7 min in is talking about how with fc all you needed was the computer and software. You didn't need all that hardware.
I already had the computer. It was hands down for me.

A lot of people got on the train at the point.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 10:20:28 pm

[tony west] "[Chris Harlan] "Software only, it was about twice the price of FCS"


That's kind of what I was talking about earlier Chris when I said it was a game changer.

It's not just me saying that, Steve Martin in that clip at about 7 min in is talking about how with fc all you needed was the computer and software. You didn't need all that hardware.
I already had the computer. It was hands down for me.

A lot of people got on the train at the point."


That's okay, Tony. You and I and Steve Martin will just have to disagree.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 10:18:37 pm

[tony west] "There were other NLE's out there but I don't remember them being "free"

When apple tossed in Imovie for "free" I think that put pressure on Avid. It was just a consumer product but you could cut a wedding or something simple on it. "


I don't think I would agree that Avid ever felt any kind of pressure from iMovie. As to consumer stuff:

Free is relative. To get iMovie, you had to buy a Mac. There were free movie editors in Windows, but not as good. But, you could buy a generic PC for a lot less, spend 50-150 bucks on something like Pinnacle software, and be in about the same spot for a lot less.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 10:45:25 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Free is relative. To get iMovie, you had to buy a Mac."

I know, and people WERE starting to buy macs. The start of what you see today.

They weren't buying it to get Imovie.

They already were getting a Mac and "oh. look at here......a free cutting tool tossed in"

A hardware company like Apple can afford to give away software for free or very cheap.

When the guy in the video talked about the Avid student price being 300 bucks. They didn't pull that price out of a hat. They don't want to give their crap away for that price any more than I'm a man in the moon.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 11:09:26 pm

[tony west] "[Chris Harlan] "Free is relative. To get iMovie, you had to buy a Mac."

I know, and people WERE starting to buy macs. The start of what you see today.

They weren't buying it to get Imovie.

They already were getting a Mac and "oh. look at here......a free cutting tool tossed in"

A hardware company like Apple can afford to give away software for free or very cheap.

When the guy in the video talked about the Avid student price being 300 bucks. They didn't pull that price out of a hat. They don't want to give their crap away for that price any more than I'm a man in the moon.
"


You know, Tony, I'm not really following your logic, so I'm not quite sure how to respond. I'm not sure what you mean by "what's happening today." Mac Sales? I get that iMovie was a give away, and that people started playing with it. People have been interested in playing with video for a long time. Avid student price has been where it is for a long time--years before FCP X pricing, if that's what your point is.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 12:10:26 am

[Chris Harlan] "what your point is"

I have had different points during this back and fourth because I have responded to your different points.

My original point was the same as what Steve said in that video.

Apple changed things in a big way by putting out a strong product (fcp) that people could afford.

More people jumped in.

Apple kept putting out products that were getting closer and closer to Avid but under cutting them with really low prices (like you just admitted) Forcing the prices down for more people to reach.

There wasn't enough difference in FCP and Avid to justify Avid charging thousands of dollars more, so they had to come down to meet Apple which made it cheaper for everybody to afford.

When I talked about Imovie, that was an example of apple changing the game because Avid had to give their product away for free. I got my first Avid free and I think that was a direct result of their response to Apple. They were afraid that people would go from their free imovie to fcp and never buy avid.
So they hoped by giving you their free avid that people might go to the real avid.

That brings us up to that video today.

I don't think that avid's product can separate it's self enough from fcp X to allow them to charge the price that they really want to charge. (not that 300)

Every software company has to come down to compete with Apple because

1. They have a good product that people want and 2. they can give their software away because they make their money on COMPUTERS and Iphones and Ipads and Iwhatever the he-- else they want to kick butt with.



I can't simplify it anymore than that for you.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 12:21:11 am

[tony west] "I can't simplify it anymore than that for you."

And I wouldn't want you to have to. We'll just have to disagree about a lot of stuff.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 1:21:53 am

[tony west] "1. They have a good product that people want and 2. they can give their software away because they make their money on COMPUTERS and Iphones and Ipads and Iwhatever the he-- else they want to kick butt with."

1. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Problem is that a lot of people's perception is that everything Apple is automatically brillant just because it bears the logo. Regardless of wether X is good, bad, getting there or whatever: if it had been a new app from an unknown company hitting the app store while, at the same time, Apple had released FCP 8... would anybody really have bothered? Would people have abandoned FCP8 for the new paradigm or even tried it out? After all, most other NLEs were either right under people's noses, either already installed or available as a trial (and I am not excluding myself here, I had PP for a long time and never bothered to take a closer look).

2. Very true. Which is the root of the problem. Because they can now afford to piss off niche markets without thinking twice about it.


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tony west
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 2:02:13 am

[Frank Gothmann] "Problem is that a lot of people's perception is that everything Apple is automatically brillant just because it bears the logo. Regardless of wether X is good, bad"

I don't know about all that. Sounds like a straw man argument to me.

Nothing to do with what I wrote.


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Walter Soyka
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 7:47:32 pm

[tony west] "It also reminded me how Apple was such a game changer. The money kept most people out of the game early. You had to work in someone else's house. When Apple put out FCP it ended up bringing the price down to the point where you could have your OWN house. That's a huge difference."

This is a fair point to make, because FCP became so popular, but Apple wasn't the only one to shake up the cost structure in the post industry. Remember that Avid was highly disruptive when it launched, too, and there were other NLEs on the market before the four A's rose to dominance.

I think the cycle of falling costs arguably started in the 1980s and has been running ever since.

I don't think it was just FCP's price that was important, relative to Avid -- it was Apple's business model. FCP was sold software-only (in support of Apple hardware), so you could buy a Mac and an FCP license for a few thousand dollars. With Firewire, you could use DV without spending big money on "real" storage, monitoring, and output. (A "proper" FCP setup with monitoring, a VTR, a SCSI RAID, and a CineWave card was still pretty expensive.)

FCP was part of a wave of video products that offered 80% of the capability at 20% of the price, which enabled solo practitioners (like myself), with a little help from Visa, to offer some or maybe even most of what you could get at a post house, but with dramatic cost savings.

One-man shops disrupted the post boutiques of the 1990s, which were funded much the same way -- except with a little help from your bank (with your home as collateral) instead of unsecured credit card debt. Was it harder and riskier to start a post operation then? Of course, but it was even harder and riskier before that. Prior to the emergence of desktop NLEs, you needed seven figures just to open the door of a post facility.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:24:17 pm

[Walter Soyka] "One-man shops disrupted the post boutiques of the 1990s, which were funded much the same way -- except with a little help from your bank (with your home as collateral) instead of unsecured credit card debt. Was it harder and riskier to start a post operation then? Of course, but it was even harder and riskier before that. Prior to the emergence of desktop NLEs, you needed seven figures just to open the door of a post facility."

I think another memory that is being lost is that of "offline/online" post relationship, and that all early NLEs were offline editorial tools. A lot of people today have no notion that the product you got from an NLE was an EDL, so that you could make the vast majority of your editorial decisions before going to the post house. Prior to NLEs, this was done with small offline source/record systems from many different companies. So, NLEs were competing not with Post House, per se, but with companies like Convergence, GVC, and CMX.

The direct competition with Post houses began with the development of "broadcast cards," and cartridge-loading high resolution decks where people could capture and finish.


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Walter Soyka
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:31:08 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I think another memory that is being lost is that of "offline/online" post relationship, and that all early NLEs were offline editorial tools. A lot of people today have no notion that the product you got from an NLE was an EDL, so that you could make the vast majority of your editorial decisions before going to the post house. Prior to NLEs, this was done with small offline source/record systems from many different companies. So, NLEs were competing not with Post House, per se, but with companies like Convergence, GVC, and CMX. "

Very true and well-said!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Daniel Frome
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 6:49:03 pm

The guy in the red sweater (right) is constantly chuckling in a condescending way every time they start showing Avid functions on screen. It gets a little annoying. He's clearly not a fan.


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Steve Connor
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 7:26:24 pm

[Daniel Frome] "The guy in the red sweater (right) is constantly chuckling in a condescending way"

Didn't see that at all

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Frank Gothmann
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:15:56 pm

I didn't think it was that great to be honest.
Most of the stuff that really sets MC apart wasn't a topic. Collaborative workflows, project sharing, stereoscopic, video io, native workflows, AMA, DnxHD and MXF vs. Prores advantages and disadvantages etc., stability, support options, hardware support, control surfaces, roadmaps etc.
Also, what I really don't find useful with such things is that its usually a feature comparison of stuff that's there, on paper, but it hardly evaluates how things behave in real world conditions. How stable is an app, how does is handle large projects, how reliable are features that sound great on paper or look good when demoed.
In my opinion these are the aspects that truly set MC apart and make it the editor of choice for lots of people.


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Walter Soyka
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:27:50 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Most of the stuff that really sets MC apart wasn't a topic. Collaborative workflows, project sharing, stereoscopic, video io, native workflows, AMA, DnxHD and MXF vs. Prores advantages and disadvantages etc., stability, support options, hardware support, control surfaces, roadmaps etc."

But likewise, most of the stuff that sets FCPX apart (approach to media management, resolution independence, color management, 32 bit floating point compositing, GPU rendering, trackless timeline, pervasive metadata, etc.) wasn't a topic either.

The discussion was limited in scope, but what was discussed was fairly handled.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Frank Gothmann
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:35:40 pm

Completely agree, those are all points that should have been worked in as well. Also that X exports faster etc. etc. I just think that, if you are not familiar with any of the two apps (although I assume the majority of people who watch their show know either FCP classic or X but not necessarily MC) you don't walk away with usable information as to why, when or who should consider what app.


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Thomas Frank
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:34:04 pm

True that but again allot of your suggestion are techno talk, wouldnt you rather use a app that is made for stereoscopic...



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Frank Gothmann
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:49:25 pm

[Thomas Frank] "True that but again allot of your suggestion are techno talk, wouldnt you rather use a app that is made for stereoscopic..."

I don't understand what you mean by that. MC is made for stereoscopic editing, out of the box, that's one of the big things that sets it appart from almost everything else on the market (if you need that feature of course).


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Thomas Frank
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:56:54 pm

Oh you mean editing the footage, isnt that possible in FCPX?
I thought you mean converting standard to stereo....



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Frank Gothmann
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 9:04:46 pm

[Thomas Frank] "Oh you mean editing the footage, isnt that possible in FCPX?
I thought you mean converting standard to stereo...."


Out of the box in X? No.
And even with Dashwood plug-in that is currently only runs in legacy not as in-depth (no pun intended) as in MC6.


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 25, 2012 at 8:33:45 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "I didn't think it was that great to be honest.
Most of the stuff that really sets MC apart wasn't a topic. Collaborative workflows, project sharing, stereoscopic, video io, native workflows, AMA, DnxHD and MXF vs. Prores advantages and disadvantages etc., stability, support options, hardware support, control surfaces, roadmaps etc.
Also, what I really don't find useful with such things is that its usually a feature comparison of stuff that's there, on paper, but it hardly evaluates how things behave in real world conditions. How stable is an app, how does is handle large projects, how reliable are features that sound great on paper or look good when demoed.
In my opinion these are the aspects that truly set MC apart and make it the editor of choice for lots of people.
"


Frank, on one level I agree with everything you are saying, but looking at it another way, I think it is great that those particular guys are sitting down with Avid at all, and that Ripple is putting out an Avid training vid, and that the discourse is opening up a bit. Despite a couple of sneers here and there, and a couple of weird misconceptions, I thought it was an open an honest discussion, and--while by no means comprehensive--is promising for NLE dialog going forward.


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Rafael Amador
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 7:32:51 am

[Chris Harlan] "I don't think I would agree that Avid ever felt any kind of pressure from iMovie. As to consumer stuff:"
I don't think nobody in the industry has ever taken iMovie seriously.
In the FCP forum we used to recommend iMovie when people had problems capturing DV, but just to check if the FW connexion was OK.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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peter dunphy
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 10:47:54 am

Tweet from Chris Jones "Why you should choose Adobe CS 5.5 for editing your film" and his blog entry

http://www.chrisjonesblog.com/2012/01/avid-or-final-cut-pro-x-tips-for-sett...

Peter Dunphy

2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 8 GB 1066 MHz DDR3, ATI Radeon HD 4870, ATTO ExpressSAS R380, Sonnet D800 Raid 5


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 12:32:46 pm

[peter dunphy] "Tweet from Chris Jones "Why you should choose Adobe CS 5.5 for editing your film" and his blog entry

http://www.chrisjonesblog.com/2012/01/avid-or-final-cut-pro-x-tips-for-sett....."


Have a look at number 6 from that list. Not quite sure I'm understanding the tweet vs the blog.


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Andy Field
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 4:09:03 pm

It's important to remember that the MacBreak studio guys are ALL IN on Final Cut Pro X -

this is their bread and butter - training videos.

They've already made and sold all the FCP7 training videos they'll do since it's EOL.

They had advance looks at Final Cut Pro X to get the first training videos out. If FCP X doesn't sell - they don't make money. I've written to one of the two excellent instructors in that video at the top of this thread and urged them to make an AVID training video as the majority of FCP 7 editors couldn't continue working with X - he responded they already were in the process - which indicates they knew FCP X wouldn't be widely accepted before it even hit the Apple online store shelves.

As for the guy on the right chuckling whenever there was an Avid feature mentioned -- he too is vested in Apple succeeding with Final Cut Pro X as he's helping create the training videos -- they are enthusiastic cheerleaders in large part because it's their income at stake -- they may indeed love FCP X -- but they're counting on folks who need training to love it a lot more.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:25:24 pm

[Andy Field] "It's important to remember that the MacBreak studio guys are ALL IN on Final Cut Pro X -

this is their bread and butter - training videos.

They've already made and sold all the FCP7 training videos they'll do since it's EOL.

They had advance looks at Final Cut Pro X to get the first training videos out. If FCP X doesn't sell - they don't make money. I've written to one of the two excellent instructors in that video at the top of this thread and urged them to make an AVID training video as the majority of FCP 7 editors couldn't continue working with X - he responded they already were in the process - which indicates they knew FCP X wouldn't be widely accepted before it even hit the Apple online store shelves.

As for the guy on the right chuckling whenever there was an Avid feature mentioned -- he too is vested in Apple succeeding with Final Cut Pro X as he's helping create the training videos -- they are enthusiastic cheerleaders in large part because it's their income at stake -- they may indeed love FCP X -- but they're counting on folks who need training to love it a lot more."


Pretty jaded view, there.

I'm sure if they didn't believe in it, they would toss it aside, just like the score of Legacy users have done all over the internets. There's no incentive for them to work on something that they don't think is going to succeed. Maybe they know more than we do....

Judging by the napkin based numbers of FCPX sales, they have a bunch of new and potential clients. Good for them.

That being said, they need to go where the money is, so an Avid training program makes sense, especially for FCP "switchers". They are just like us, they need to look around to see where they need to be, and not put their sh*t in one basket.

Not a big deal or conspiracy, rather, a smart and necessary move.

Jeremy


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Chris Harlan
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:32:04 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Not a big deal or conspiracy, rather, a smart and necessary move."

Agreed. I think its cool that Ripple has an Avid vid coming, and I certainly don't see X as a flop.


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Neil Goodman
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:26:17 pm

a video about editing and the audio is out of sync.. oh the irony.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Bill Davis
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 27, 2012 at 10:15:55 pm

[Andy Field] "I've written to one of the two excellent instructors in that video at the top of this thread and urged them to make an AVID training video as the majority of FCP 7 editors couldn't continue working with X "

Uh...

So you're saying that "a majority" of the two MILLION paid FCP Legacy seats (and the untold unpaid ones) "couldn't continue working with X" and I call BS on that entire idea.

My take is that a significant piece of the top 100,000 of that two million editors "couldn't continue working with X."

But literally EVERYONE else can.

There are a range of "high level" facility needs where Legacy was capable that X is not yet equipped to satisfy.And yep, there are probably a dozen "negative" cases where X is totally the wrong tool to apply to the real world needs of some defined class of editors.

But I'm here to tell you that for the VAST majority of day to day editing needs, FCP-X works better than just fine. It works brilliantly.

If you don't want to explore, or adopt, or even take the time to understand it's capabilities - fine.

But don't make statements like the one above. It's false on it's face.

Probably ninty percent plus of standard video editing needs. (video stream digitization, cutting, scene-to-scene transitions, scene arrangement, audio editing, titling, cutaways, compositing, etc, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum - are totally within the capabilities of FCP-X right now, work dependably, reliably, and in a way that generates excellent output that will meet anyone's quality standards for professionally produced video.

A growing number of us are succeeding with it in professional production situations right now.

So your statement quoted above, fails. Period.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 28, 2012 at 4:04:54 am

[Bill Davis] "My take is that a significant piece of the top 100,000 of that two million editors ..."

[Bill Davis] "... there are probably a dozen "negative" cases ..."

[Bill Davis] "Probably ninty percent plus of standard video editing needs."


Bill,


You're making up numbers.


Franz.


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Bill Davis
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 30, 2012 at 5:54:13 pm

------

[Bill Davis] "My take is that a significant piece of the top 100,000 of that two million editors ..."

[Bill Davis] "... there are probably a dozen "negative" cases ..."

[Bill Davis] "Probably ninty percent plus of standard video editing needs."


Bill,


You're making up numbers.


Franz.
----------


Fran's,

No, actually I'm not. If you read carefully, you'll see that i'm writing both specifically and with careful intent.
I'm using terms such as "significant piece" and "possibly" to signal to the reader that these are broad assertions rather than " facts".

I'm expressing opinions and guesses and my language indicates precisely that.

It's left to the reader to decide if my speculations match theirs.

As it should be.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Thomas Frank
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 28, 2012 at 9:29:15 am

How long have you following MacBreak, Ripple or/and Steve Martin?
Also your comment saying which indicates they knew FCP7 editors couldn't continue working with X.
Which is far fetch and sounds like fan committed. Offering AVID training on there site just means expanding there clientel. Hints the Adobe training.
If you follow the boards cross the world wide webm podcasts, blogs and so on you will se the majority FCP7 users will go to Premiere or FCPX and minority might go Media Composer.
Which very logical since Premiere leans more to FCP7 then Media Composer. Besides its price wise a better deal with go with the production CS.

Don't know why everybody is ragging on FCPX. I agree it is missing Broadcast video output and multicam but that has been officially announced by Apple!
But other then that it's like comparing After Effects (FCP7) with Shake or Nuke (FCPX) in terms the way it works and functions.
Besides as a NLE company AVID I would be affraid of one Applications Light Works! It runs on all platforms, open source and there is a free version.
FCPX will sale no matter which clientel and how long it sneaks into the major facilities and Adobe well they still have Photoshop and After Effects. Don't mention AVIDs storage options Ligth Works and EditShare...
;)



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Andy Field
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 28, 2012 at 3:04:31 pm

This is a brutal crowd. Sad that some posters launch personal attacks when someone gives their opinion.

How long have I been following Ripple Training?

Since their first disk which I purchased and most of the others to help learn FCP and Motion and Soundtrack Pro. Their training is excellent - this wasn't a critique of them or their training - just pointing out the vested interest they have in FCP X succeeding.

Perhaps I should have written that most FCP editors who use it to make their living in Film and Broadcast television find FCP X unusable in it's current 1 viewer/no professional monitoring/no legacy support/trackless form.

If you are starting each project from scratch and output to the web -FCP X may very well be the best editor you'll ever need.

This is not a radical observation. In fact it's the reason this forum exists. No broadcast monitoring out - no tracks - no xml in the first version.and non standard in the subsequent versions..no audio mixer - no legacy support.

Apple says that's all coming? Should we all just kick back and straddle two apps while Apple works on finally doing that. Most shops have to get their work done and finished today.

No legacy support is the deal breaker for every FCP editor i know. You can open a legacy project/Timeline in Premiere and Avid but not FCP X?

If you have a client base with years of projects on the shelf - that kills FCP X for you. We are constantly updating and revisiting old projects - taking pieces from them and incorporating into new projects.

And a careful read of my original post says "they (The Ripple Training guys) may love Final Cut Pro X - ...but they have a vested interest in selling FCP X training"

They only offered FCP and related suite application training for a decade. Then suddenly AVID training is on the way. Would they be doing that if a good chunk of client base wasn't leaving FCP?

It was a note about considering the source.

The Ripple Training guys are the the best of the best when it comes to training - no critique of them. But there's a reason they are flooding the internet with all the free training video teasers. They need to get people purchasing their training to stay in business....that's a tougher sell when the people who need the training are fleeing to other NLE's. Even Larry Jordan's getting indigestion trying to revamp his business and expand it to Premiere to follow the crowd fleeing FCP.

And for the record - FCP X is a cool program -- just doesn't do what we need for broadcast with enough control over saving various versions of projects -- exporting just a segment of a timeline -- and sharing for finishing with other programs without a good deal of contortion that wasn't necessary in the older version.

PS I'll be first in line to buy Ripple Training's AVID instruction as soon as it's out.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Thomas Frank
Re: MacBreak Studio discussion on Avid and FCPX
on Jan 28, 2012 at 5:25:55 pm

Not sure how my post was personal attack, if you felt it was sorry from my side. No intend.

Anyways the line: which indicates they knew FCP X wouldn't be widely accepted before it even hit the Apple online store shelves. Is more a statement then a opinion.

I would not outcast FCPX from broadcast, there are some users here doing it right now and infact it has been working fine in our facility.

I think QuickTime 7 is the best NLE ! lol :)



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