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Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad

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andy lewis
Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 9:12:14 am

Well I'm trying out Premiere Pro. I wasn't particularly thrilled about that decision, I have to say. Of all the options, it seemed like the most sensible and least exciting. I thought I knew what was coming - similar to FCP7 but clunkier and faster.

And it is exactly that. What I underestimated was just how wonderful it is to have all kinds in the timeline without having to render. It's... beautiful.

Sadly, after the initial honeymoon I'm back on the clunky side of town. Particularly regarding keyboard shortcuts...

To pick just 2 examples:

Selecting a clip in FCP7:
"X" to place in and out points at start and end of clip
"option-A" to select clip

and

"V" to select nearest edit point


If there are PPro equivalents to these, please let me know cos I can't find them. Selection is pretty fundamental to any NLE and these core functions appear to be mouse only.

I know the usual advice for learning new software amounts to "stop thinking in the old language and learn the new one." I'd normally agree, but I really don't think I want to go back to a way of working that involves moving my hands between the mouse and the keyboard every 10 seconds.

I'm seriously considering having another go at FCPX just for this reason. It's a Spanish holiday apartment building site at the moment but maybe it will be lovely when it's finished and the pool's been filled up. Meanwhile I've put in a feature request with adobe. PPro is very impressive in lots of ways and maybe this kind of refinement is on their to-do list.

Are anyone's fingers flying with joy through the FCPX interface? Or is anyone making better progress with PPro than I am?


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Ian Bailey
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 11:41:07 am

One of the things that thrilled me most when I first opened FCPX was how clean the interface was and the reliance on keyboard shortcuts. For example, you can't mark in and out points without using the I and O keys.

From the Help menu in Premiere, navigate to Adobe's online pages -- no doubt you will find keyboard shortcut info there. Can you enable tooltips in Prem that will reveal the shortcut when you hover over the button? FCPX shortcuts are available directly from the Help menu.


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Phil Hoppes
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 11:45:53 am

You can use all of your old fcp keyboard shortcuts in PP. If you have CS5.5 you simply go to Edit -> Keyboard Customization and pick Final Cut Pro 7.0 from the drop down menu. If you are using CS5.0 (like me) the installed version of the shortcuts is bad. Go here and you can download the proper file for this. Follow the instructions and install it an you are good to go.


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Thomas Frank
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 3:26:14 pm

[Phil Hoppes] " If you have CS5.5 you simply go to Edit -> Keyboard Customization and pick Final Cut Pro 7.0 "

Yup if you have that is the key word.
I do agree on the FCP interface clean and slick. I can see Mocha in the same dress.



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Kevin Monahan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 10:05:08 pm

[Phil Hoppes] " If you are using CS5.0 (like me) the installed version of the shortcuts is bad. Go here and you can download the proper file for this. "

The fix was for Windows computers (and how many FCP users are there on Windows? Not many). On Mac, keyboard shortcuts are fine.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Joe Chow
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 4:43:07 pm

As an ongoing switcher to Premiere Pro, I too have issues with the clunkiness, but not so much the commands you refer to. I have opted not to use FCP keyboard defaults but rather to customize simple ones that have become second nature. So I have transplanted the "X" key from FCP, as well as Option-"I" "O" to remove in and out points, etc. On others I stay with Premiere's shortcuts. What was "A" in FCP is now "V" in PP, what was "F" is now "M"...and I use page-up or page-down to go to the previous or next edit point.
So that's all cool. What I do find clunky about PP, among other things, is the limited Trim tools it offers. In FCP, I loved being able to park my curser at an edit point, hit "R" or "RR" to turn it into a Roll or Ripple tool, and simply type in numbers as to how many frames or seconds I want to roll and ripple the edit point, or use the square brackets to move it back and forth frame by frame. In the last 5 years or so, I almost never opened the Trim Window in FCP. But in PP, incremental trimming of linked clips that you want unlinked is truly the definition of clunky.
Anyway, I've submitted my wish list, and hopefully they'll come true. This is the link if you want to also:
https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform



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Kevin Monahan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 11:00:13 pm

As a former FCP expert, one who wrote a book on FCP, trained thousands on FCP, actually was on the Final Cut Studio team for FCS1 and FCS3 - and who now works at Adobe: I agree with you!

Feature requests are in the link above, or go here: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

While we await the next version of Premiere Pro (which may or may not fix your issues), indeed, the Trim monitor is the place for trimming as we did in the timeline. You can max it out by following my advice in this blog post: http://blogs.adobe.com/kevinmonahan/2011/07/01/keyboard-shortcuts-trimming-...

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Shane Ross
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 5:19:34 pm

If you think Premiere is different, then just try FCX. There is a demo. It is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from FCP, and Premiere, in almost every way. You would be starting from scratch in terms of learning how to use the app. Premiere is at least familiar.

But I too have issues with it. Like the mixer not adjusting the levels on the clips, but the entire track, that patching takes 2-3 more steps than it does in FCP or Avid, audio mixing taking 3-4 more steps than FCP or Avid.

But once you use the FCP keyboard setup, it's pretty smooth to transition.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Thomas Frank
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 6:28:04 pm

I dont think Premiere is that familiar, it might look the same but sure feels like two different Apps.
How much confused FCP user faces I haven seen when they witnessed how Premiere handles stereo Audio.

But this is a good time for FCP7 users all Apps have trial if you need to learn choose the one you think will work!
Will it make your content and edits better, don't think so ;)



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Richard Herd
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 5:42:56 pm

[andy lewis] "Are anyone's fingers flying with joy through the FCPX interface? "

It's really fast. I like it quite a lot actually. I decided to cut a short film for a first time director, offered him a deal while learning the software. Often, I'd have to stop what I was doing and read the manual. The first session took me about 3 times as long as it should have, but now that that's over with, it's actually faster, and I have a bunch of projects for another client in Legacy, and when I cut for him, I think "X is faster and better."

As long as my client is happy, I'm happy. But yesterday I downloaded the 30 day trial of Avid, on PC.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 7:50:05 pm

Love that folks are finding shortcomings in PPro. I was on the beta team through several revs and they would just never listen when we asked for "pro" features. Like marking clips, and how about setting and in/out to quickly export a clip? Or setting an in/out and sub clipping that section? Or moving a clip without using modifier keys? Or setting an in/out just to simply copy/cut? I don't want to use the work area thingy - it's fine for AE but slows me down in PPro.

All the "pro" EDITING features we use everyday with Avid and FCP7 are just not there! Sure the mercury-engine is awesome and the dynamic link is cool but when it come to editing and mixing it just kinda sucks. I also hate the Adobe Media export thing - just a pain to find the right settings for audio and video - nothing like the ease os export w QT conversion in FCP7. Also, the built-in color tools are just terrible, you've got to install Colorista or forget it.

FCPX is also still missing some of these everyday features - but I will say a lot of the new stuff just rocks and there is a foundation here that could blow everything else away if Apple doesn't screw up. Using Tonalizer in FCPX for Color Timing is the most fun and best results I've ever had quickly timing shots and scenes.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Shawn Miller
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 9:25:20 pm

"Love that folks are finding shortcomings in PPro. I was on the beta team through several revs..."

Which revs were you testing?

Shawn



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David Cherniack
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 10:42:28 pm

I believe Lance has stated that he was on CS3 beta. At that time I recall that he was a passionate supporter of it...when it was still a very immature NLE.

Plus ca change... :)

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 11:01:44 pm

"I believe Lance has stated that he was on CS3 beta."

Ah I see, just curious... at least he's still passionate, eh'? :-)

Shawn



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Kevin Monahan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 10:37:31 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Love that folks are finding shortcomings in PPro."

I'm sorry your experience in the beta program wasn't satisfactory, but let me assure you, we are listening to pro editors and their feature requests.

Feature request: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Joe Chow
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 10:59:38 pm

I don't know what version he was referring to but I was quite perplexed by that poster's comments. It seems that all the features he was referring to ARE available in Premiere if you look for them. And I find Adobe Media Encoder (if he was referring to that) more versatile than Compressor.
I for one was reluctant to switch after 12 years on FCP. But I don't have clients clamoring for X and I need something resembling continuity from a good number of legacy projects. So I AM glad Adobe seems to listen, unlike Apple.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 25, 2012 at 7:13:42 am

I was a tester from PPro 1 through CS3 - also After Effects and a little Photoshop during the same period. The PPro team was always a problem - NEVER listened to a word we said and never implemented a single feature we asked for. I had real hope for the program and still do but many of those features we asked for are still missing as my post states. I would have loved to stay involved but you can only handle so much rejection and closed minds.

Glad there is a new regime handling PPro and really hope you keep up the good work, but other than Mercury Engine I still still NO PROGRESS in simple day to day editing tasks.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Dennis Radeke
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 25, 2012 at 12:31:19 pm

[Lance Bachelder] " I was a tester from PPro 1 through CS3 - also After Effects and a little Photoshop during the same period. The PPro team was always a problem - NEVER listened to a word we said and never implemented a single feature we asked for. I had real hope for the program and still do but many of those features we asked for are still missing as my post states. I would have loved to stay involved but you can only handle so much rejection and closed minds.

Glad there is a new regime handling PPro and really hope you keep up the good work, but other than Mercury Engine I still still NO PROGRESS in simple day to day editing tasks."


Lance, thanks for your input. Clearly, things change and evolve over time. We probably wouldn't have so much lively debate about Premiere Pro if FCP X hadn't disappointed a percentage of their existing user base.

As to listening to our users, I see your point and yet I would counter that we were listening. The fact of the matter is that with ANY release, there is only so much you can do. During the time that you were testing it, we had major things we had to accomplish that came before some of the 'craft edit' type things you might allude to.

With Premiere Pro 1.0, we had a complete code rewrite. Premiere Pro, is over 1 Million lines of code. We changed the edit methodology from Premiere's AB+FX track to the single track (professional) methodology. We kept nearly all of our core features and removed old ideas and things that didn't matter. We also added a resolution independent engine way before anyone knew that this would be cool.

With Premiere Pro CS3, we came back to the Mac specifically for Mac users. At the time FCP was going super strong but we had some users that wanted an integrated workflow. We again listened to Pro users and made that decision as part of our commitment to open and platform agnostic workflows.

With CS4, we went from a project based codec to timeline/sequence based codec. A very important underlying idea that encouraged multiple types of media in the project.

With CS5, we were the FIRST company to be a TRUE, NATIVE, 64-BIT application. A big effort. On top of that, we added the GPU goodness, more codecs, XML import and export and continued to lead with integration between our apps and also third party apps.

With 5.5 we've started to work on those little things that craft editors need but we know we still have a way to go.

That leads to our next release. I will not talk about it, but I can say that while no release will ever have everything that everyone wants or needs, I am tremendously happy about what it brings to your original point - listening to customers.

Time will tell, but I hope that moving forward you will entertain an open mind to Adobe's efforts to the professional editing community. Once again, thanks for your input.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Ken Zukin
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 25, 2012 at 6:48:39 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "With Premiere Pro CS3, we came back to the Mac specifically for Mac users. At the time FCP was going super strong but we had some users that wanted an integrated workflow. We again listened to Pro users and made that decision as part of our commitment to open and platform agnostic workflows."

Dennis,

Your posts always seem intelligent, reasoned, informed, etc., and they inspire trust in your company.
And at some point, I will probably become a Premiere Pro user, as FCP X isn't going to cut it for me.

But what you wrote here is classic misleading marketing: you've made it seem as though Adobe did something to benefit Mac users; unless I'm mistaken, the move you describe here followed Adobe abandoning the Mac platform, which left it's users high and dry.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 2:43:27 pm

[Ken Zukin] "Your posts always seem intelligent, reasoned, informed, etc., and they inspire trust in your company.
And at some point, I will probably become a Premiere Pro user, as FCP X isn't going to cut it for me.

But what you wrote here is classic misleading marketing: you've made it seem as though Adobe did something to benefit Mac users; unless I'm mistaken, the move you describe here followed Adobe abandoning the Mac platform, which left it's users high and dry."


Ken, First off - thank you for your kind words. While I'm an Adobe employee, part of DNA is always trying to be a helpful person and this is an avenue where I can do that. I do think that Adobe is listening and caring about the customer in a way that is singular in the industry right now. Of course, I'm biased! ;-)

To your point about returning to the Mac: Yes, we did move to a single platform for three releases (Premiere Pro versions 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0). At the time FCP was growing on the Mac platform and in order for us to make Premiere Pro full featured for 1.0 (no missing features), then we had to lose the Mac platform for a time. Trust me, we didn't want to! Our decision around it at the time was multi-faceted but I would say the biggest reason was that our PC/Mac ratio at the time was STRONGLY favoring PC. Like Apple, you have to go where you feel the business is. At that time, it was more around the PC.

I'll take the hit for that, but I would argue that the point is that we invested in the Mac platform at the absolute height of FCP popularity (FCS2). It was the right business thing to do, it was just the right thing to do.

Thanks,
Dennis - Adobe guy (or Adobe shill??!?!?) ;-)


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Steve Connor
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 3:51:13 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "At the time FCP was growing on the Mac platform and in order for us to make Premiere Pro full featured for 1.0 (no missing features), then we had to lose the Mac platform for a time. Trust me, we didn't want to! Our decision around it at the time was multi-faceted"

I'm sure Mac users at the time were just as livid with that decision as FCP Legacy users are now with Apple (although there's probably a lot more of them!) But in the long run everything turned out well, hopefully the same will happen with FCPX.

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Chris Harlan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:39:31 pm

Dennis, is there any possibility that Adobe will ever adopt a cross platform licensing agreement like Avid has, so that I can--for instance--have CS6 on both my 8 Core and a corresponding HP or Dell laptop?


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 27, 2012 at 11:37:32 am

[Chris Harlan] "Dennis, is there any possibility that Adobe will ever adopt a cross platform licensing agreement like Avid has, so that I can--for instance--have CS6 on both my 8 Core and a corresponding HP or Dell laptop?"

unlikely Chris. Avid always has a hardware component potentially at play and their software is lacking the completeness that Adobe's has (Photoshop for example). It makes sense for them to do this. For us, it doesn't as we're just software and the value of our suite is very compelling. If we were to allow cross platform licensing the only result we would get is a loss of revenue.

That said, we do support moving from one platform to another when upgrading. For example if you're moving from PC to MAC (or the other way around) you can call our support and we'll move your licenses to the other platform with no hassle.

I know this may not be what people want to hear, but at the end of the day, Adobe wants to make a buck too, just like you guys. Making a license cross platform would be a bad business decision for us and like it or not, we are a publicly traded company with a responsibility to our shareholders.

Hope this helps,
Dennis - Adobe


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Chris Harlan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 27, 2012 at 3:15:34 pm

[Dennis Radeke] " Adobe wants to make a buck too, just like you guys. Making a license cross platform would be a bad business decision for us and like it or not, we are a publicly traded company with a responsibility to our shareholders."

Whoa! I was never suggesting that you make less money, or have less control. Adobe allows a single licensee to have their copy of the suite installed on two machines, as a general acknowledgment that a single power user is likely to have both a laptop and a workstation. Avid allows for this as well, by use of a dongle or online commission/decommission. Adobe's procedure is less cumbersome, though Avid's allows you to cross back and forth between programs. I easily recognize that reorganizing the mechanism that controls piracy or misuse would be far too complicated a project to embark on simply to fit the needs of the few single users who are interested in straddling platforms, so my question was really posed--I suppose--without much hope. Still, it would be nice.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 28, 2012 at 11:29:40 am

[Chris Harlan] "a general acknowledgment that a single power user is likely to have both a laptop and a workstation."

Ah, I see. The Adobe EULA (end-user license agreement) allows for two activations and installs supporting either a back up license or an install on two systems. So, I think we've got you covered in this case.

This has been the case for as long as I've been at Adobe and I don't see it changing. Thanks - and let me know if you have more questions Chris.

Dennis


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Steve Connor
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 28, 2012 at 11:43:42 am

[Dennis Radeke] "Ah, I see. The Adobe EULA (end-user license agreement) allows for two activations and installs supporting either a back up license or an install on two systems. So, I think we've got you covered in this case."

I've found the support guys to be very good at adding activations when you have systems failures or you change your computer

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 25, 2012 at 11:46:21 pm

Thanks for the detailed reply Dennis. I will say there was a period early on when Adobe was listening during the ver. 1 and 1.5 days when there was a different team i charge. I was one of the first editors on the planet to attempt, with Adobe's involvement, editing a narrative feature with PPro and Cineform - this was right after Dust to Glory. I was also the 1st Editor to cut a 2K 3D Cineform Prospect show in Premiere Pro. Once that team left Adobe, there was a period when Adobe was NOT listening and English was definitely the 2nd language for the programming team, none of which seemed to have ANY editing experience.

I've seen a lot of progress in the past 2 rev's and actually paid for my upgrade to CS5. I've tested 5.5 with approved nVidia card and it is awesome! However I've not come to the point of trust yet where I would cut my next movie on it... maybe someday.

Correction as far 64 bit. Sony Vegas Pro has had side by side 32 AND 64 bit versions since Vegas 9, long before CS5 was released. I cut my last indie feature in Vegas Pro 10 64bit because the constant crashes we were having in CS5. 5.5 seems much better and I would think 6 will be even better.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 12:32:33 am

[Lance Bachelder] "I've seen a lot of progress in the past 2 rev's and actually paid for my upgrade to CS5. I've tested 5.5 with approved nVidia card and it is awesome! However I've not come to the point of trust yet where I would cut my next movie on it... maybe someday."

What surprises me about what you've written above Lance is that you characterize yourself as distrustful of Adobe Premiere based upon your customer experience in the past with Premiere, yet when people here do exactly the same, but it's in reference to FCPX, you are dismissive and or even disrespectful.

Why is that? What do you see as the difference?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 1:04:16 am

I thought I was being fairly objective in my PPro views being a long time fan of the app even with its past shortcomings.

The big difference is I've actually used PPro for years off and on for fairly high level work - most of the folks posting here including some of the leaders in this forum are not actually using FCPX for paying gigs and just slamming it and Apple as a hobby or sport and not based on any actual use of the program. You're a prime example David - you're a Leader on this forum and I can't recall anything but negative crap from you concerning FCPX. Why even be a leader?

When someone like Bill Davis or Craig post something positive they are instantly jumped on by the naysayers, who for the most part have less real pro experience than them.

I've been a Cow Leader for over 10 years and just for you David, I promise this will be my last post ever in this forum.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 1:37:01 am

[Lance Bachelder] "When someone like Bill Davis or Craig post something positive they are instantly jumped on by the naysayers, who for the most part have less real pro experience than them."

You know, you keep making that accusation about "pro experience," Lance, with nothing to back it up. Its easy to point fingers when you are not pointing at anyone directly, but at everyone by association. Its cheap and childish to attempt to undercut other people's credibility with innuendo.

[Lance Bachelder] "I've been a Cow Leader for over 10 years and just for you David, I promise this will be my last post ever in this forum."

Your choice, of course. Frankly, you were vaguely offensive to advocates when you didn't like FCP X, and now, you are vaguely offensive to people who have problems with it. I DO think you say interesting things in the Techniques forum, so maybe you are wise to carry out your threat and never darken these doorsteps again.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 8:50:27 am

Chris - where's your back-up? My last TV gig was Supervising and Lead Editor on an national Top 10 Emmy Winning CG Series with millions of weekly viewers. I just returned from overseas as Supervising Editor and Story Consultant on a $30 million+ CG feature film - both using legacy FCP.

My IMDB may not be up to date but I do have a variety of decent shows on there. I've released 2 live action feature films in the past 3 years with over $2 million in DVD sales and growing. I have 2 produced screenplays and will Direct and Edit my second feature film later this year - and hoping to cut it in FCPX! I Love this business and have been at it since 1986.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:00:27 pm

Well, and I thought you weren't coming back here. These are stupid, childish games, Lance.

FWIW, I'm primarily an independent promo preditor. I write, produce, edit between 75 and 150 promos a year, myself, and, beyond that, supervise/produce teams of other editors for both domestic and international units of some very large and venerable companies. When I'm not doing that, I'm happy and grateful to take a seat for a day or a week at any of the fabulous boutique promo houses here in LA. It can be a strenuous job--with many long hours and many tight deadlines--but I like what I do, and I've been doing it for a long time. I consider myself quite fortunate to be doing it.

And here's the thing: I don't really care--when corresponding with people on this board--how fortunate they have or have not been with their careers thus far, as long as they have some sort of cogent perspective to bring to the discussion. The only time such things are vaguely germane, is when someone is wildly prognosticating without any actual field experience. As to "leaders" you are preoccupied with--I think the heads simply reflect people who post a lot. I've never signed on as any kind of forum leader, and, as far as I know, there are none.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:36:35 pm

Dude you started this with the personal attack on me. I just answered your last post. And yet you getting personal. Whatever...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:43:52 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Dude you started this with the personal attack on me. I just answered your last post. And yet you getting personal. Whatever..."

Not true. You attacked the credibility of EVERYBODY who doesn't agree with you here. And have done so on several occasions.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 3:40:50 am

[Lance Bachelder] "you're a Leader on this forum and I can't recall anything but negative crap from you concerning FCPX. Why even be a leader?"

This is the debate forum Lance. It's the only one of its kind on the Cow, and no one has forced you to join in, nor is anyone suggesting you leave. Opposing views are typically part and parcel of every debate, aren't they?

BTW, I'm not a leader of this forum Lance, just a regular here, because the debate is sometimes interesting, particularly when people are respectful of the views of others and are willing to share their respective POVs frankly and openly.

I wonder, do you always characterize the POVs of others that differ from your own as "negative crap," or is that strictly reserved for those of us who simply don't share to your zeal for FCPX? I certainly don't know you well enough to know the answer that, and I'd suggest that's probably true of anyone coming across your words here. For future reference, you might want to think about that.

[Lance Bachelder] "The big difference is I've actually used PPro for years off and on for fairly high level work - most of the folks posting here including some of the leaders in this forum are not actually using FCPX for paying gigs and just slamming it and Apple as a hobby or sport and not based on any actual use of the program."

The fact is Lance, there are many editors who are simply unable to use FCPX for their work, because their client's work demands things such as: seamless backward compatibility; seamless collaborative workflows; proper video monitoring; and a host of other things that FCPX doesn't yet have in its present form, or may never have.

So, if some of us can't actually use the product for our paying gigs, it does seem a bit odd that you'd find our dissatisfaction with the product so surprising and even upsetting. Why do you really care if we disagree with you?

[Lance Bachelder] "When someone like Bill Davis or Craig post something positive they are instantly jumped on by the naysayers, who for the most part have less real pro experience than them."

That's also wildly inaccurate Lance. Disagreeing with your POV or with that of Bill and craig does not automatically make others bad people, nor should they be made to feel unwelcome on this forum because they don't share your particular views.

[Lance Bachelder] "I promise this will be my last post ever in this forum."

If you can't tolerate disagreement in a debate forum then you'll probably be better off not participating in the discussion here. But, don't blame that on me, or on anyone else here; that's entirely your choice.

Meanwhile, you probably will be much happier when you find a debate or forum in which everyone agrees with you absolutely and completely. Good luck, I do hope you find your Shangri-La someday, somewhere.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 9:00:29 am

David - if you're not a Leader here why is your pic up top? For whatever reason you've decided to attack me personally though I can't recall doing the same to you? I don't live that far from Burbank (I was born there) if you feel the need to keep making personal attacks?

I've never ever judged anyone here including you as a "bad" person - that's just silly. But I've seen very little debate in this forum, mostly just a lot of negative posts from the naysayers peppered with a few positive posts that usually get jumped on right away by more negative crap.

I guess in my "shangri la" world - all the leaders with pics would be high level, award-winning pro's who actually used/tested the products thoroughly before jumping to conclusions. There are many such forums and leaders here on the Cow - sadly just not in this forum.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 2:02:12 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "I've never ever judged anyone here including you as a "bad" person - that's just silly."

You labeled my opinions as "negative crap," then suggest that it's I who have made this personal. It sure sounds like anyone who doesn't agree with you is just wrong.

Why do you care so much about what others think about FCPX?

If you simply tell others what you think, you'll find it works a whole lot better than telling them how you think they should think.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:19:13 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "I've never ever judged anyone here including you as a "bad" person - that's just silly."

You know, Lance the first time I came across you, you were virulently attacking Craig Seeman:

[Lance Bachelder] "PS - Is Craig Seeman the biggest pest in the history of the Cow or what? FCPX will NEVER be widely adapted in the pro world - it's complete crap."

I responded to you with this:

"I fear, Lance, that you are speaking out of your hat. Craig, while far more an evangelist for FCP X than I could currently possibly be, has been fair and even-handed in his acknowledgments of FCP X's weaknesses. We both have strong areas of disagreement about FCP X's value, yet he has earned my respect, and further, I have learned things of value from him. Sadly, I find myself having to post statements like this more often than I would like."

Lance, we all have said things in the heat of the moment that we might wish to later disavow. I know I certainly have. I don't think you have an accurate view of much of the discussion that takes place here, or the degree to which many of the people debating things go to keep things civil, and actually learn.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 6:31:33 pm

I called Craig a pest - never a bad person - huge difference. I was among the FCPX haters when it was released and Craig was cheerleading with what I thought was crazy talk from the get go. Now that Apple has released 2 revs of FCPX I have a different opinion of the app and need to apologize to Craig for jumping on him early on. I should have never made it personal, my bad.

Although you and David insist on the personal attacks on me, I still don't think anyone here is a bad person. It's easy to get personal via your keyboard, probably not so much in a face to face meeting.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 7:11:01 pm

[Lance Bachelder] " called Craig a pest - never a bad person - huge difference"

Technically, yes. The phrase "the biggest pest in the history of the Cow" does not contain the words "bad" or "person." Huge difference? I suppose that depends on how much weight you invest in "bad."

[Lance Bachelder] "Now that Apple has released 2 revs of FCPX I have a different opinion of the app and need to apologize to Craig for jumping on him early on. I should have never made it personal, my bad."

Cool.

[Lance Bachelder] "Although you and David insist on the personal attacks on me, I still don't think anyone here is a bad person."

Lance, I'm not interested in attacking you personally. As I've said in earlier posts to you, I find the things you say in Techniques interesting and useful. I value your take on FCP X, and the fact that someone of your experience finds the program so useful DOES have weight with me. I was simply rebutting the wide aspersions you were casting on this forum.

I think we also have a bit of miscommunication. When I was talking about you "making that accusation about "pro experience," with nothing to back it up," I meant that you don't actually know what others here do or don't do for a living, not that YOU needed to prove your professional worth. Sorry if I was unclear about that.

Further, I can assure that there is nothing I have written here that I would not say to you in person. Perhaps things would be less contentious that way, as there might be less miscommunication.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 11:38:13 pm

Well we'll have to disagree on the "bad" thing. Bad is a serious term to me and speaks of moral and bad/harmful actions - not whether a person is a fanboy. I've never even hinted that someone here is bad.

As far as my opinions of others - I regularly look at Leaders and contributors IMDB credits, websites, demo reels, type of work etc. etc. when available, and try to make my comments based on real world experience and whether it's clear to me that they have ever given the software a true shakedown.

There are those that come to this forum regularly just to start trouble, I just wish it was a true discourse about FCPX, it's features or lack thereof and what it's future may hold. I started as a huge FCPX hater and now have joined Craig, Bill, Tony and others in the hopeful camp.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Chris Harlan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 27, 2012 at 12:25:57 am

[Lance Bachelder] "Well we'll have to disagree on the "bad" thing. Bad is a serious term to me and speaks of moral and bad/harmful actions - not whether a person is a fanboy. I've never even hinted that someone here is bad.
"


I can go with that.

[Lance Bachelder] "As far as my opinions of others - I regularly look at Leaders and contributors IMDB credits, websites, demo reels, type of work etc. etc. when available, and try to make my comments based on real world experience and whether it's clear to me that they have ever given the software a true shakedown.
"


I go out of the way NOT to post or link my reel/website here. For me, this place is about process, and not a place for my client/contact list. In my career, I have generally found discretion rewarding.

As to people mis-speaking about FCP X capabilities--I get that that can be annoying. I try not to. I was probably as vocal as you, back in June and July. Now I'm far more interested in how this whole scene will shake out, and I'm certainly willing to take anything from FCP X I can use. I'm not alone. I think you'll find that the majority of people who hang around here feel that way.

[Lance Bachelder] "There are those that come to this forum regularly just to start trouble, I just wish it was a true discourse about FCPX, it's features or lack thereof and what it's future may hold. I started as a huge FCPX hater and now have joined Craig, Bill, Tony and others in the hopeful camp."

Yeah, there are trolls everywhere. So, hey, I like following your FCP X adventures. I hope you get a chance to cut a film with X, because I'd be very interested in the blow-by-blow of how it goes. It is possible, as well, that the coming changes will make it possible for me to enjoy some of those things I really like about X, and to learn some more.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 4:13:53 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Correction as far 64 bit. Sony Vegas Pro has had side by side 32 AND 64 bit versions since Vegas 9, long before CS5 was released. I cut my last indie feature in Vegas Pro 10 64bit because the constant crashes we were having in CS5. 5.5 seems much better and I would think 6 will be even better."

Thanks for the info. Yes, Sony Vegas is a 64-bit app and I didn't realize it was back in version 9 as opposed to 10. Looking at Wikipedia, Sony release 9 on 5/11/2010. Premiere Pro CS5 (64-bit both platforms) was released 4/30/201. I won by a couple of weeks. ;-)

In my best Homer voice, "Hmmmm.... CS6...." ;-)

Best,
Dennis


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 26, 2012 at 5:49:30 pm

Actually Vegas 9 was released in right after NAB 2009 and CS5 was introduced at NAB 2010

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Kevin Monahan
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 24, 2012 at 10:52:19 pm

Hi Andy,

[andy lewis] "Selecting a clip in FCP7:
"X" to place in and out points at start and end of clip
"option-A" to select clip
and
"V" to select nearest edit point"


•Yes, you can do a Mark Clip. Choose Marker>Mark Clip
•There is no "Select in to Out" but you can Lift or Extract in to out, which is usually what you want to do anyway.
•You don't select edit points as you do in FCP. You can use Extend Edit commands to Roll to your playhead either before or after the edit, though. If you wish to ripple with keyboard shortcuts, launch the Trim Monitor and use keyboard shortcuts there. If you don't like this, you can always make a feature request: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

This blog post may help you: http://blogs.adobe.com/kevinmonahan/2011/07/01/keyboard-shortcuts-trimming-...

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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andy lewis
Re: Premiere Pro makes me happy... then sad
on Jan 25, 2012 at 7:43:52 am

Thanks Kevin that's useful stuff.

A practical question for FCPX users:

In FCPX can you do the following without picking up the mouse?:

Select clips in the browser and insert into the timeline (or whatever those things are called now)
....then select edit points and do ripple and roll edits.


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