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Jeremy Garchow
Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:01:12 pm

Mac hardware, Windows OS (PPro NLE).

Native red 4k footage playback, Thunderbolt, Live camera record (SDI/Blackmagic UltraStudio), live screen capture record all at once on a ......... MacBook Air.







Yowza. So uhh, about those MacPros....

Jeremy


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Neil Goodman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:26:00 pm

been waiting on the intensity extreme to actually be sold so i can finally get broadcast out, out of a imac. not quite as demading or groundbreaking as the use of TB in the demo, but definately a sign that you dont need a beast of a box anymore to get professional results.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:34:23 pm

[Neil Goodman] "but definately a sign that you dont need a beast of a box anymore to get professional results."

What? Blaspheme!


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Michael Hancock
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:40:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Neil Goodman] "but definately a sign that you dont need a beast of a box anymore to get professional results."

What? Blaspheme!"


Now remove the $5,000 Red Rocket card and giant RAID and see how well the Air does. The peripherals are what make this demo possible, not the laptop. You could probably get similar results on a Thunderbolt enabled netbook, if it existed.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:56:45 pm

Lenovo and Acer announced Thunderbolt support.
Magma is testing PCIe Thunderbolt expension on Mac and Boot Camped Mac with Windows ahead of the Windows laptops.
http://www.magma.com/thunderbolt.asp



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 8:01:42 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Now remove the $5,000 Red Rocket card and giant RAID and see how well the Air does. "

Duh.

Have you tried to playback 4k Raw footage on a desktop? Doesn't work really well there wither unless you're at 1/2 resolution.

If shooting Red (or a DIT) this is great. Sorry, won't let you pee on my parade. :)

Jeremy


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 1:58:37 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Have you tried to playback 4k Raw footage on a desktop?"

Ummm... I have and my straight from the shelf Acer desktop can run realtime 4K RED on PPro with Mercury Playback Engine without a Red Rocket or a RAID.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 4:44:58 pm

Sounds great, Tero. Glad it's working for you.

I can't get real time Epic playback without reducing playback to 1/2 or lower in PPro.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 7:03:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I can't get real time Epic playback without reducing playback to 1/2 or lower in PPro."

Mac or Windows? I remember you as a Mac guy (natch), and Tero is talking about Windows. This gets to a larger point about the relative poverty of a top of the line Mac versus even something like an Acer, primarily because of pitiful Mac graphics support.

Disclosing, as a reminder, I've been using Apples since 1979, a Mac since February 1984, and have been complaining about graphics on my Macs since 1986. This isn't a platform war thing -- just the facts.

Albeit perhaps a little off-topic since we're talking about T-bolt...although very much ON topic to the extent that Tero points out that there are a lot of other factors that affect performance, and a lot of ways to think about performance.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 7:41:40 pm

Mac.

I know Taro is talking Windows.

[Tim Wilson] "Albeit perhaps a little off-topic since we're talking about T-bolt...although very much ON topic to the extent that Tero points out that there are a lot of other factors that affect performance, and a lot of ways to think about performance."

Again, if everyone will simply look at this demo, and take it for what it is, you will see that red playback (and other simultaneous video actions) are not dependent on a Cuda based sizzle core.

Can't I please be excited about this? Please? ;)


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Steve Connor
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 7:44:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Can't I please be excited about this? Please? ;)"

You know you're not allowed to be excited about things here ;)

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Michael Hancock
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 8:18:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Again, if everyone will simply look at this demo, and take it for what it is, you will see that red playback (and other simultaneous video actions) are not dependent on a Cuda based sizzle core."

You're right, in this case it's not dependent on a "Cuda based sizzle core". It's dependent on a $5,000 Red Rocket in a $1,000 expansion chassis hooked to a $1,500 RAID. Which is a bit more expensive than a sizzle core beast with a decent nVidia card.

By all means, be excited. But be prepared to spend enormous amounts of money to get 4K playback on an Air.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 8:20:55 pm

Do you work with red material, Michael?


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Michael Hancock
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 8:36:14 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Do you work with red material, Michael?"

I do. I work with Red, Alexa, DSLR, XDCam, DVCProHD, Beta, DVCPro, GoPro, AVCHD - you name it, I've probably handled it at some point on either an Avid, Edius, FCP, or Premiere system. What does my experience with Red footage have to do with what I wrote? 4K playback isn't cheap if you want to use an Air, thunderbolt or not.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 8:58:30 pm

So then you will know that having a Rocket greatly enhances the speed and ease of red material. Not only for playback, but transcode/conform as well., no matter how big and fast your computer is. It also allows baseband monitoring of red raw material from 1080 to 4k.

With it being in a Thunderbolt enclosure, you can now move it around instead of it being inconveniently locked to a sizzle core.

It allows editing of red material on lower cost/more convenient computing hardware.

So yes, the rocket is expensive, but its worth it if your time + convenience = money.

So really, your going to have to pay for something. A rocket in an enclosure is very cost effective, in my opinion, and allows more flexibility at the cost of buying a rocket per machine, or constantly swapping pcie boards.

It is exciting to me, perhaps it's not to you.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 9:20:40 pm

We hire a DIT with a MacPro and a Red Rocket to be on set. The day after the shoot we're delivered 2 hard drives with duplicate footage on each - raw R3D files and ProRes transcodes. We copy the ProRes files to the server, archive the rest, start editing. We only go back to the 4K files for reframing or to fix major color issues (rare). Why edit 4K when we never finish in it - often finishing in SD, even!

Plus, having a mobile Red Rocket wouldn't help in our shop. We'd need 3 Red Rocket cards to make cutting in 4K worthwhile since we often have 3 editors working with the same footage. That would be a $15,000 investment. Much cheaper to pay for transcodes and use our MacPros to reprocess a couple shots than try to work in 4K the whole time. Faster renders, more timeline responsiveness, less cost in the long run.

Really, editing 4K is a cool demo. The majority of the time it's unnecessary.

Do you guys finish in 4K?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 9:40:51 pm

And that's great, Michael. It's not practical for you. For me, who often serves as "DIT" it's completely practical or am I not allowed to share my enthusiasm about it? Because it might not work for you, I'm wrong?

We handle our own transcodes, which makes a rocket even more useful.

The reason for my excitement for this demo is that I could personally handle real time capture/proxy creation, data verification, on set playback from a centralized portable system. Then most of that system could also plug right in to a studio environment. Perhaps I am naive, but for us and our needs, it fits right in to how we operate (except the windows part of it).

There no way we would all edit native 4k, which makes a portable rocket even more intriguing. After edit, conform can be done on any available machine, including a laptop. You say you'd need a rocket per machine, I'd say no you wouldn't.

No we don't finish in 4k, but we try and grade from the 4k raw if at all possible.


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Steve Connor
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 8:05:33 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Now remove the $5,000 Red Rocket card and giant RAID and see how well the Air does. The peripherals are what make this demo possible, not the laptop"

I don't think he's trying to say that the laptop IS doing it

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 8:19:01 pm

[Steve Connor] "I don't think he's trying to say that the laptop IS doing it"

Absolutely not, but it's the CPU.

To preface, Michael, I work with Red footage, I understand the consequences of it.

Let's recap.

Realtime playback of 4k red footage in Premiere with aid of Sonnet box and Rocket.

SDI capture of video through Blackmagic box.

Screen Capture Software recording the screen.

Promise Thunderbolt Raid playing back the R3D and recording the SDI signal.

All of this happening all at the same time from a lower power laptop.

Call me a weenie, but that's decently impressive.

Jeremy


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Neil Goodman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 11:07:02 pm

Yea im assuming if someone is using RED on a daily basis they already have the ROCKET card.. A far as the FXAnimation people, sure they'll probably need more of a computer with the graphic cards and whatnot of there choice , but i dont do special fx or animation besides regular After Effects, so for us editors that just edit Film and Video, thunderbolt is huge.

Just the fact i can get broadcast out, out of an imac, with few different solutions to choose from now, makes me happy, and at the same time have legit, fast raid storage readily available makes he happy.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Shawn Miller
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 8:50:53 pm

"...you dont need a beast of a box anymore to get professional results."

Maybe not for cutting video, 3D/VFX work (simulation, compositing, rendering, etc) still needs as much RAM and many CPUs as can be stuffed into a computer. I don't think TB will be much of a game changer for these folks.

Just my opinion.

Shawn



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 9:48:05 pm

[Shawn Miller] " I don't think TB will be much of a game changer for these folks."

Yet.

What if TB let's you add on a stack of processors?

Or more GPUs?

Of course this would have have to be with optical TB.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 10:00:30 pm

"What if TB let's you add on a stack of processors?"

That would be great... provided that the cost, power and cooling is less than what I can currently get with a 1U or 2U rack computer ($800 - $2,000 or so for a dual quad core ).

"Or more GPUs?"

That would be wonderful for Premiere Pro... but not as important for 3D/VFX.

I am looking forward to a faster connection to my RAID arrays though (for editing). :-)

Shawn



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 10:07:16 pm

[Shawn Miller] "That would be great... provided that the cost, power and cooling is less than what I can currently get with a 1U or 2U rack computer ($800 - $2,000 or so for a dual quad core )."

That's the thing. you wouldn't need a whole new computer with it's own OS and infrastructure, you'd just plug in and double your CPU.

This is of course throwing huge spitwads, so you can pee on this parade.

[Shawn Miller] "That would be wonderful for Premiere Pro... but not as important for 3D/VFX."

Yet.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 10:25:43 pm

"That's the thing. you wouldn't need a whole new computer with it's own OS and infrastructure, you'd just plug in and double your CPU."

I guess we'll have to see what the cost of such devices will be, if they're the same price or slightly cheaper than a 1U server, I would rather go for the server, that way I can set it to different tasks while I work.

"[Shawn Miller] "That would be wonderful for Premiere Pro... but not as important for 3D/VFX."

"[Jeremy Grachow] Yet."

We can all hope eh'? Believe me, when unbiased renderes and fluid dynamics simulators can harness the power of multiple GPU computing at a reasonable price, I hope to be the first in line to take advantage. :-)

Shawn



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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 4:48:32 pm

Very cool demo!

Once again, this makes it clear that many of us have different needs and thus different definitions of "power."

Some need massive throughput -- doable with TB on an Air.

Others need massive compute power -- doable with a "24 sizzle core beast." (Jeremy, this is my new favorite expression!)

Some niche within a niche needs both.

I'm glad we all have so many options to meet our needs, and I hope that continues to be the case for a long time to come.

All that said, let's put Thunderbolt in perspective: Thunderbolt's big advantage is not its absolute speed. There are faster interconnects. The thing that makes Thunderbolt very special is that it's external (so you can expand outside the case and make it work on itty bitty laptops), while being relatively cheap and relatively fast.


[Jeremy Garchow] "That's the thing. you wouldn't need a whole new computer with it's own OS and infrastructure, you'd just plug in and double your CPU."

This is really, really speculative. I'd argue that suggesting that Thunderbolt will be capable of this kind of expansion is very premature.

Thunderbolt is DisplayPort plus PCIe. It is a not a CPU interconnect. There are no PCIe cards that allow you to just plug a card in to add a CPU. This simply doesn't reflect current computer architecture.

Intel's multiprocessing uses a separate high-speed CPU bus, unrelated to the expansion bus. The current interconnect is called QuickPath, and it runs at 25.6 GB/s (that's a capital B for bytes) on 3.2 GHz processors. This is way faster than Thunderbolt at 10 Gb/s. (Incidentally, this is why the Core i7 cannot be configured in a multi-processor configuration. It doesn't implement QPI.)

Looking at the end of Thunderbolt's roadmap and suggesting it'd be fast enough to be a good CPU interconnect presupposes that there will be no further advancement in CPUs or dedicated CPU interconnects like QuickPath in the interim. I don't think that's realistic. The rest of the computing industry is not standing still while Thunderbolt develops.

That said, Thunderbolt could make a nice cluster interconnect, but clustering is not the same as just plugging in and doubling your CPU.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 5:25:20 pm

[Walter Soyka] "This is really, really speculative. I'd argue that suggesting that Thunderbolt will be capable of this kind of expansion is very premature."

But of course. I mentioned that.

Here's to the future.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 7:59:04 pm

[Walter Soyka] "This is really, really speculative. I'd argue that suggesting that Thunderbolt will be capable of this kind of expansion is very premature."

[Jeremy Garchow] "But of course. I mentioned that."

Fair -- I just thought it was important to re-emphasize given the ferocity of the Thunderbolt hype cycle.

Thunderbolt is very cool and full of promise, but it's not a technical revolution per se.

Thunderbolt is a couple of existing technologies bundled together in a very convenient package. Thunderbolt isn't allowing for any new workflows or technical capabilities -- it's just opening up what's already possible to a whole new set of machines. You could have run the same demo from the MacBook Air on a low-power, mid-size PC tower with PCIe expansion from a few years ago -- and somehow I don't think we all would have been giddy about that on a technical level.

In other words, we can't do anything with Thunderbolt that we couldn't do before -- but we can do it cheaper and on significantly smaller or more portable machines.

I'm not saying that Thunderbolt adds no value or isn't a big advancement. I agree that it will change the way many of us work, because we no longer require a workstation to meet high throughput requirements.

I'm just saying that the speculation about Thunderbolt solving all sorts of problems it was never designed to solve (like adding CPUs as several posters have mentioned at one time or another) is unfounded. A MacBook Air plus Thunderbolt plus a dozen peripherals does not a Mac Pro make.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Here's to the future."

We truly live in interesting times. I can't wait to see what comes next!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 8:19:38 pm

[Walter Soyka] "In other words, we can't do anything with Thunderbolt that we couldn't do before -- but we can do it cheaper and on significantly smaller or more portable machines."

Precisely. We could also email and browse the web on laptops, but as soon as we were able to take that capability and carry it around in our pocket...

[Walter Soyka] "A MacBook Air plus Thunderbolt plus a dozen peripherals does not a Mac Pro make."

You mean a 24 sizzle core beast, I'm sure.

That's not the point, though. The point of this demo is that a year ago, you could not do what he is trying to do without some serious computing hardware with a lot of physical heft and a mini van. In my mind, that's an accomplishment. Also, I can share that Red Rocket card around so I don't have to buy three of them for each machine, or I don't have to constantly rip it in/out of one machine to the next. I can also connect storage to a laptop, an iMac, and a theoretical TB equipped desktop with no speed penalty or separate PCI card for each machine. Sure the data handling capabilities have not changed, but having this done in a truly mobile environment that instantly scales to a full scale desktop based studio should not be downplayed in my opinion, and it would not be possible without thunderbolt.

And once optical cables get here, it's all extendable.

To me, it's a big deal. To the sizzle core crowd, maybe not so much.

To each their own.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 10:48:19 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Precisely. We could also email and browse the web on laptops, but as soon as we were able to take that capability and carry it around in our pocket..."

I get that. I'm not trying to minimize Thunderbolt. I agree with you that Thunderbolt will change the way we can work, and I said so in my last post (though not as articulately as you have here).

Thunderbolt is all about more capability per pound (which is not the same as more raw capability). It means doing things on a laptop that you used to need a desktop for.

Thunderbolt is impressive -- but relatively, not absolutely. 4K editorial isn't new, but 4K on a laptop is.


[Jeremy Garchow] "You mean a 24 sizzle core beast, I'm sure."

I absolutely did! Thank you for the correction.



[Jeremy Garchow] "The point of this demo is that a year ago, you could not do what he is trying to do without some serious computing hardware with a lot of physical heft and a mini van. In my mind, that's an accomplishment. "

You wouldn't have needed serious computing hardware to do this a year ago. The RAID and the Red Rocket are doing most of the work here. You could have used any cheap Core i7 desktop with a couple PCIe slots. As a bonus, you could have also added a proper NVIDIA card for CUDA acceleration in Premiere Pro. Reading files from disk and passing data to an expansion card has not been exclusively a part of the sizzle core value proposition for several years now.

Really, if you replaced all the references in this demo to the MacBook Air with references to a Costco minitower and all references to Thunderbolt to PCIe, what would change?

Even with a MacBook Air, you still need a cart or desk to hold the RAID and the Sonnet chassis, and you still need power, so it's not like this is a completely portable solution.

Whether you've got a minitower or an Air with external doodads, a minivan is not required -- although since a DIT would probably have this in a nice wheeled case, it might be a good idea.


[Jeremy Garchow] "And once optical cables get here, it's all extendable. To me, it's a big deal. To the sizzle core crowd, maybe not so much. To each their own."

I am squarely in the sizzle core crowd, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate what Thunderbolt will do. 4K on a laptop is incredibly cool! I'm not trying to rain on the "Thunderbolt adds peripheral expansion" parade -- 4K on a $1500 computer is a big deal -- but I am throwing buckets on the "Thunderbolt adds compute power" parade.

I just think that some balance to the Thunderbolt hype is important. Let's acknowledge what Thunderbolt is good for, but let's not set expectations for it too high. It moves PCIe devices that have existed and worked for years out of the computer case. No more, no less.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 21, 2012 at 1:05:22 am

[Walter Soyka] "You wouldn't have needed serious computing hardware to do this a year ago. The RAID and the Red Rocket are doing most of the work here. You could have used any cheap Core i7 desktop with a couple PCIe slots. As a bonus, you could have also added a proper NVIDIA card for CUDA acceleration in Premiere Pro. Reading files from disk and passing data to an expansion card has not been exclusively a part of the sizzle core value proposition for several years now.

Really, if you replaced all the references in this demo to the MacBook Air with references to a Costco minitower and all references to Thunderbolt to PCIe, what would change?

Even with a MacBook Air, you still need a cart or desk to hold the RAID and the Sonnet chassis, and you still need power, so it's not like this is a completely portable solution.

Whether you've got a minitower or an Air with external doodads, a minivan is not required -- although since a DIT would probably have this in a nice wheeled case, it might be a good idea."


I guess when I say serious, I mean larger, not necessarily CPU cycles. What would change is that I could get a mobile 4k playback rig in a carry-on. This is huge, I wouldn't consider myself a DIT, but I can hold my own. A realtime capture (read, proxy) creator with red raw playback with minimal gear is of huge interest.

With laptops, you could have had something like the mobile rocket and some sort of SAS storage all hamstrung over 1x Express/34. This nullifies capture/broadcast playback. This is a big deal to me, and makes things, first of all more capable when traveling, and second, more convenient. This setup you see here doesn't require CUDA. I know, it's not a big deal Walter and the Sizzle Core's, but it is to me. I'm not locked to a CUDA GPU. I can use any thunderbolt laptop, Mac or eventually PC, and not have to worry too much about the specs. Bring along the trusty Kartmaster, and I'm pretty golden.

Now, back to fantasy land, I wish there we're a generic Red Rocket card. A video accelerator that was format agnostic, and not a traditional GPU, but perhaps using GPU technology. AJA's "Riker" preview seemed kinda like it, but not. It was PCIe 2 at nab 2011.

[Walter Soyka] "I just think that some balance to the Thunderbolt hype is important. Let's acknowledge what Thunderbolt is good for, but let's not set expectations for it too high. It moves PCIe devices that have existed and worked for years out of the computer case. No more, no less."

And all that comes with that. Not CPU, but capability, which I will trade for less CPU.

My first personal system I bought was a Ti PowerBook. I edited dvcprohd over FireWire. I was happy and the rig offered me many opportunities that wasn't possible before. Eventually, the G5 came to compliment it.

In a way, this rig represents the same capability to me.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 21, 2012 at 2:33:44 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I guess when I say serious, I mean larger, not necessarily CPU cycles. What would change is that I could get a mobile 4k playback rig in a carry-on. This is huge, I wouldn't consider myself a DIT, but I can hold my own. A realtime capture (read, proxy) creator with red raw playback with minimal gear is of huge interest. "

I really do think that 4K playback from a laptop is exciting.

But isn't the itty-bitty DIT cart in your pocket crowd just as niche as the the sizzle core beast crowd?

I work on the road a lot, and I understand the tradeoffs between itty bitty and sizzle core beast very well. Sometimes it's got to fit in a Pelican, sometimes it's got to render in under an hour. Different needs require different tools.

I am glad that Thunderbolt is here to make laptops more capable, but going back to your original post asking about Mac Pros -- once you've done your 4K playback in the field, wouldn't it be nice to have a workstation back in the office that can do more than just play it back?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 21, 2012 at 3:57:47 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I am glad that Thunderbolt is here to make laptops more capable, but going back to your original post asking about Mac Pros -- once you've done your 4K playback in the field, wouldn't it be nice to have a workstation back in the office that can do more than just play it back?"

I'll need more than an Air, but do I need a MacPro?

Or a CPU/GPU/Ram box?

Today, MacPro. A few days from now? I really don't know.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 6:11:46 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Others need massive compute power -- doable with a "24 sizzle core beast." (Jeremy, this is my new favorite expression!)"

I agree. Whatever my next workstation is--be it Mac Pro, Z800, or Dell--it will be known officially to the network as "24 sizzle core beast."


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 8:12:05 pm

Walter,


Great information, as per usual. Thanks.

While Thunderbolt may not be able to "double your CPU", I am intrigued by GPU additions (as per my previous post) which may "increase power" (in scare quotes) for certain purposes.

Franz.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 24, 2012 at 1:52:51 am

[Franz Bieberkopf] "While Thunderbolt may not be able to "double your CPU", I am intrigued by GPU additions (as per my previous post) which may "increase power" (in scare quotes) for certain purposes."

Sorry I missed this earlier. I agree -- I think that GPGPU is one of the most promising trends in computing.

Thunderbolt is very interesting here, as is OpenCL. If Apple and NVIDIA could work together again, the Mac platform could push the state of the art with GPGPU.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dustin Parsons
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:34:27 pm

Yeah that's pretty ridiculous. I can't wait to start using Thunderbolt myself.

A lot of people are predicting the death of MacPros but with new technology like this, will it matter?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:39:56 pm

[Dustin Parsons] "A lot of people are predicting the death of MacPros but with new technology like this, will it matter?"

To some, yes.

To others, no.

This is pretty amazing considering it's a MacBook Air, all things aside. Let's just take that in for a moment.

Moment over.

There has been grumblings, though, that Thunderbolt won't work with external GPUs OSX but will with Windows. That's probably why he is using Windows here as the Rocket seems to be a custom GPU of sorts.

If so, we Mac users take another gut punch.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:42:03 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "That's probably why he is using Windows here as the Rocket seems to be a custom GPU of sorts."

The Red Rockets is a $5,000 decoder card for Red files. It's a one trick pony, but if you deal extensively in Red it's a huge asset. Especially if you want to cut on a laptop. Otherwise you spend days transcoding your footage before you can work with it.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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kim krause
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 21, 2012 at 9:31:25 am

like i said 6 months ago...the mac mini will be the new mac pro! it's all about evolution.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 21, 2012 at 7:33:08 pm

[kim krause] "like i said 6 months ago...the mac mini will be the new mac pro! it's all about evolution."

That's one of the most uninformed comments in weeks. Kudos!


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Steve Connor
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 21, 2012 at 7:36:57 pm

Just a side note, I went into my local Apple Store yesterday and they still have Mac Pros on display, hopefully a good sign!

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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kim krause
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 9:15:13 am

glad you think so! read jeremy's thread below here...he's saying the same thing and shane is just arguing with him. i'm not implying today or even next month but if you can make a macbook air run this stuff with a thunderbolt breakout box then i see no reason why a mini can't replace in the near future. i have replaced a 2 year old macbook pro with a macbook air and haven't noticed any decrease in performance. who's to say that a super hot mini isn't in the works? you gonna have egg on your face if i'm right.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 5:21:17 pm

[kim krause] "glad you think so! read jeremy's thread below here...he's saying the same thing and shane is just arguing with him. i'm not implying today or even next month but if you can make a macbook air run this stuff with a thunderbolt breakout box then i see no reason why a mini can't replace in the near future. i have replaced a 2 year old macbook pro with a macbook air and haven't noticed any decrease in performance. who's to say that a super hot mini isn't in the works? you gonna have egg on your face if i'm right."

No, they are not saying the same thing at all. Jeremy Garchow says that for his specific needs in the field an Air with TB might be a great solution and he argues that it canl be an alternative to the Mac Pro for some but certainly not for all.
I could write up several workflows that are tried and functional on a MacPro but will turn your life into a place of hurt on an Air or Mini.
First of all, the setup shown in the demo doesn't even run on OSX at all and given the nature of the Red card it is unlikely will in the near future unless Apple makes some majore changes to the OS.
You are also making the usual mistake of comparing the previous generation of processors (or even the one before) with the current cpus found in the Mini or Laptops. A Sandy Bridge Xeon will run circles around an i7, especially if it is a dual cpu machine - in terms of raw cpu performance, system architecture and bandwith etc.
Xeons will never fit in a Mini or iMac because of the cooling requirements, let alone a dual cpu setup. The demo doesn't really tax cpu at all, all the work is done by the Red card and the raid. Without the Red card, as seen in the dome, it's a show stopper.

Also, formats, codecs and workflows are not written in stone. New stuff will pop up, larger file and frame sizes, more bandwith intensive etc. Once a powerful tower is gone it is likely gone for good and you are stuck with a lightweight laptop that might suffice for your work requirements today but might bog down with whatever comes around the corner tomorrow.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 8:04:37 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "I could write up several workflows that are tried and functional on a MacPro
but will turn your life into a place of hurt on an Air or Mini."


Not to mention Apple's efforts in creating obstacles for DIY upgrades.
One has to wonder, wouldn't they keep following this trend in the future?

http://blog.macsales.com/10146-apple-further-restricts-upgrade-options-on-n...


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 8:23:41 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "
Not to mention Apple's efforts in creating obstacles for DIY upgrades.
One has to wonder, wouldn't they keep following this trend in the future?

http://blog.macsales.com/10146-apple-further-restricts-upgrade-options-on-n....."


That was from May of last year, and then an August update: http://blog.macsales.com/11638-owc-turnkey-program-for-2011-imacs-announced


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 8:59:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "That was from May of last year,"

Well, they found out a proprietary way of doing it, and so they are selling it? The point I'm making actually is that swapping a HDD is far from a simple DIY procedure. While you have brought up that they are making money out of the obstacles created by Apple, that seems good only for them, IMO. From your "new" link:

While our hard drive solution is proprietary (read as: we’re not gonna tell you how we did it), we can guarantee that—unlike other “solutions” out there—it’s 100% compatible with Apple Hardware Test and maintain proper fan operation.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 9:22:40 pm

Would you call the iMac a DIY machine? It never really has been. I don't think iMac hard drives have ever been on the Apple DIY list, maybe I'm wrong.

Also, the newer models have an extra drive bay that is not locked to the firmware lockout (but is also not user replaceable). I am just pointing out the follow up to the story.

I have no idea why Apple does this, but my feeling is that it's a practical one. An iMac is not a practical DIY machine, however.

It's not a big deal if you want to use an iMac. You shoud know going in that the iMac is a rather limited computer if you need to get to the guts of it, but thunderbolt opens it up to greater opportunities.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 10:04:59 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's not a big deal if you want to use an iMac. You shoud know going in that the iMac is a rather limited computer if you need to get to the guts of it, but thunderbolt opens it up to greater opportunities."

Fair enough Jeremy, and Thunderbolt is great, indeed. But I was wondering as well if Apple would follow this trend in the future, with their new line of computers, you see? I took the iMac as a recent example on how Apple has created more obstacles over the years, as there has been ongoing tweaks in that model in order to close it down even more to the end user. See this for reference:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/imac-aluminum-faq/imac-intel-21....


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 11:00:39 pm

The MacBook Pros aren't this way, refreshed late last year.

MacPros aren't this way.

My guess for the iMac is a heat issue. Looks like they are trying to keep a close eye on it for whatever reason.

As far as "closing it down" the iMac has been a fairly closed computer by its very design since the beginning.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 12:52:47 am

[Jeremy Garchow] " As far as "closing it down" the iMac has been a fairly closed computer by its very design since the beginning."

It's the same design, all right. The thing is, in a very recent past, and in less than twenty minutes, you could do it yourself (being just a little tech savvy). Now you need to rely on a proprietary hardware/software solution. That's what I'm calling "closing it down" and that's what I'm afraid will be the trend for Apple's hardware. Does MacBook Pro battery ring a bell? And did you say MacPro? Isn't it what was unnecessary here in the first place? Anyway, I wonder how closed down Mac computers will be in a near future, and that includes the Mac Pro replacement.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 6:33:10 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "Does MacBook Pro battery ring a bell? And did you say MacPro? Isn't it what was unnecessary here in the first place?"

Yes. MBP battery rings a bell. That came after the exploding battery situation. I had two of those things expand beyond their usefulness (I have pictures) for my old user replaceable laptop. If this battery works better, and I can't replace it myself, then great. I hope it does work better so that it doesn't need replacing, but that's just me.

Yes, MacPro does not have a proprietary hard drive temp sensor. That's true today.

My view is that Apple does this for a reason that is not conspiratorial. It might not be the most user friendly, but I don't think there's a mad conspiracy to hide the hard drive and battery of certain units. It's just they way they work, and Apple has had this ethos for a long time. The high capacity bigger hard drives turn in to a furnace, and if Apple needs that senor to protect their design, then I guess that's they way it is, same with the MBP battery. I am sure there's "good" or logical reasons from an engineering standpoint.

Jeremy


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Mitch Ives
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 9:06:26 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have no idea why Apple does this, but my feeling is that it's a practical one. An iMac is not a practical DIY machine, however.

It's not a big deal if you want to use an iMac. You shoud know going in that the iMac is a rather limited computer if you need to get to the guts of it, but thunderbolt opens it up to greater opportunities."


I agree Jeremy, which is why I dot buy iMacs. However, if they kill the MacPro it'll become kind of a mandatory thing won't it? Then this kind of thing takes on new significance.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 9:51:13 pm

[Mitch Ives] "I agree Jeremy, which is why I dot buy iMacs. However, if they kill the MacPro it'll become kind of a mandatory thing won't it? Then this kind of thing takes on new significance."

I do think we will see another MacPro or two.

If they do decide to kill the MacPro, I think they will offer some sort of replacement that isn't an iMac.

Some people still need a headless system and the Mini doesn't cut it.

Thunderbolt looks to be pretty awesome, but we aren't ready for an all internal PCIe-less world quite yet.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 3:38:23 pm

[kim krause] "the mac mini will be the new mac pro!"

Kim, I half-agree with you.

If you bought a Mac Pro only for its ability to expand, then yes, the Mac Mini with Thunderbolt is the new Mac Pro, for you. Video editorial used to require a workstation because there were no desktop or portable systems available with the necessary expansion capabilities. You needed the expansion that a Mac Pro provided, but perhaps the CPU performance and RAM capacity was overkill for your needs.

Thunderbolt separates expansion from raw computing performance, and moves it outside the box. That's what makes it a big deal. For the first time, you don't need to buy a Mac Pro if all you want to do is move some large frames of video around quickly. With Thunderbolt, portables can be expanded, too, which opens up all sorts of new possibilities for doing work on a portable machine. I think this is the exciting part of this demo.

I agree with you and Jeremy that this means that the two of you won't need Mac Pros anymore. I'm glad that you have new options that will work well for you. However, I sharply resist the implication that Thunderbolt makes the Mac Pro irrelevant because other systems now also have expansion capabilities, or that Thunderbolt will enable bolt-on CPU and RAM upgrades (which is totally inconsistent with current system architecture).

There's still a big difference in compute power and RAM capacity between a Mac Pro and a Mac Mini that Thunderbolt cannot address. If you bought a Mac Pro for its number-crunching performance, then Thunderbolt will not make the Mac Mini the new Mac Pro for you.

In other words, I'd argue that thanks to Thunderbolt, fewer people will need Mac Pros to do their work. Users with CPU- or RAM-intensive applications will need them, while users with expansion needs will be able to use smaller, cheaper, lower-performance systems.

Sidebar: it'll be interesting to see if this snowballs into the rumored Mac Pro cancellation. If a large segment of the current Mac Pro constituency moves to a MBP, Mini or iMac with Thunderbolt since they need expansion and not compute performance, will Mac Pro sales be reduced drastically enough to put it on the chopping block?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 3:52:07 pm

What I think it will mean will be a new alternative to the MacPro at a lower cost entry point.

Xeon 6 through 16 cores.
Two 16 lane PCIe for GPU and another demanding card.
3 or 4 Thunderbolt ports.
SSD boot and one other internal HD.
Rack Mountable.
Cost of entry similar to the higher end iMacs for the base model.

Results in much greater sales than MacPro ranging from those who want headless iMacs, rack mount units, CPU and GPU for the power user.

I'm not saying everyone will like this but it'll have a wider reach and lower manufacturing costs.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 3:59:14 pm

[Craig Seeman] "What I think it will mean will be a new alternative to the MacPro at a lower cost entry point... Xeon 6 through 16 cores"

I don't think there's a lot of room for a price drop without sacrificing margin. Xeons are just plain expensive. Current-generation 6-cores run around $1,000, don't they?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 4:37:54 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I don't think there's a lot of room for a price drop without sacrificing margin. Xeons are just plain expensive. "

Drop the Optical Drive, drop the hard drive and PCIe expansion for the most part. It may drop the price a bit. If Apple can drop the base price from $2500 to $2000 anticipating increased volume, they may make more. If they anticipate increased volume it may mean lower component costs. Also anticipate increased sales on Thunderbolt monitors . . . or are they going to buy those from Dell or HP.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 7:22:40 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Drop the Optical Drive, drop the hard drive and PCIe expansion for the most part."

We've had this argument over and over. The things you want to eliminate from the Mac Pro in order to create a SuperMini aren't the things that add cost or space to the Mac Pro.

What does a DVD burner cost today? $20?

Drop the hard drive? And replace it with what? An SSD? That costs more money. A notebook HDD? That underperforms and still costs money.

Drop the PCIe expansion? That's the cheap part of the motherboard. You'll still need an expensive motherboard if you want dual-socket Xeon support, you'll need the hot and expensive Xeons themselves (one of which by itself costs more than half of your target price point), and you'll need expensive ECC RAM, a big hot power supply, a big cooling system, and enough space for all that plus airflow.


[Craig Seeman] "If Apple can drop the base price from $2500 to $2000 anticipating increased volume, they may make more. If they anticipate increased volume it may mean lower component costs."

If HP, Dell, and Lenovo, the numbers one, two, and three manufacturers of workstations respectively, can't get better component pricing on Xeons with all their volume, why do you think Apple would?

For Apple to build a system similar to what you envision at that form factor and price, it will have to be based on a single-socket Core i7 (and there are many PC systems much like this today).

You could pull everything but the CPUs, RAM, power supply, cooling, and a couple of Thunderbolt controllers out of the box, and it would still cost a lot of money relative to a well-equipped Core i7 system. Why would Apple expect increased volume on this system? The only advantage it would have over an existing workstation tower form is a slight size decrease, but it would also sacrifice internal expansion. You'd have to pay the same, but you'd get less for your money.

If you're going to build a performance computer, you need expensive components, and they still take up a lot of space. Dropping the optical drive, the hard drive, and two PCIe slots will not instantly halve the price or the case displacement.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 8:27:23 pm

The reduction in materials used in the case and internals. Increase in orders, possible lower per unit shipping costs, other "inexpensive" reductions add up.

The original 2008 MacBook Air started at $1800 with Core2Duo without SSD in the base model and certainly without Thunderbolt. It had an 80GB HD 4200rpm PATA drive.

Now the base 13" model at $1300 is Dual Core i5, 128GB SSD and Thunderbolt.
For $1700 add Dual Core i7 and 256GB SSD, still less than the original model.

You'd think even holding the price would be a challenge given SSD and Thunderbolt implementation.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 9:04:38 pm

[Craig Seeman] "The reduction in materials used in the case and internals. Increase in orders, possible lower per unit shipping costs, other "inexpensive" reductions add up."

Craig, assuming you were kidding about Apple selling a computer with no hard drive, you are talking about what, a hundreds dollars at best? For the system you describe to meet your price point, you'd have to lose a thousand or two. And what have you done to save that $100? You've eliminated a lot of the features (massive memory capacity, internal storage, internal expansion) that a modern workstation offers in the first place.

I get that sometimes smaller or cheaper is better than bigger or more powerful. Your dream system exists today with PCs, but they use Core i7 in order to remain affordable. You just cannot get the same performance at half the price in a case half the size by eliminating the HDD and two PCIe slots.

It's not an issue of purchasing power or bad industrial design. Xeons themselves simply start at 3x the price of an i7. You pay for multiprocessing support, ECC RAM support, access to more RAM, improved memory bandwidth, and improved reliability.


[Craig Seeman] "The original 2008 MacBook Air started at $1800 with Core2Duo without SSD in the base model and certainly without Thunderbolt. It had an 80GB HD 4200rpm PATA drive. Now the base 13" model at $1300 is Dual Core i5, 128GB SSD and Thunderbolt. For $1700 add Dual Core i7 and 256GB SSD, still less than the original model. You'd think even holding the price would be a challenge given SSD and Thunderbolt implementation."

No, I would expect the price to be lower, because all the component prices are lower today than they were in 2008.

Workstation component prices are actually higher today than they were in 2008. Correspondingly, workstations are also more expensive.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 10:14:24 pm

[Walter Soyka] "For the system you describe to meet your price point, you'd have to lose a thousand or two"

Dropping a $2500 base system to $2000 is not half the price. I think a bit of nip tuck and case redesign can do it.

[Walter Soyka] "You've eliminated a lot of the features (massive memory capacity,"

I didn't mention that at all. That wouldn't change.

[Walter Soyka] "You just cannot get the same performance at half the price in a case half the size by eliminating the HDD and two PCIe slots."

I think there's more to be saved in a case redesign that's not quantifiable in limiting HDD and PCIe internal expansion.

[Walter Soyka] "No, I would expect the price to be lower, because all the component prices are lower today than they were in 2008."

I suspect manufacturing process has something to do with it as well although I can't prove it.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 10:22:35 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Dropping a $2500 base system to $2000 is not half the price. I think a bit of nip tuck and case redesign can do it."

You're average consumer PC costs what? 600 bucks. And it's the same tower form factor, with optical drive, hard disc, pcie etc. So those bits are obviously not responsible for the price of the Mac Pro or any other workstation. The only way you can save is by going with a desktop class processor and that means only one cpu, less memory etc.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 10:47:09 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Dropping a $2500 base system to $2000 is not half the price. I think a bit of nip tuck and case redesign can do it."

You specified a Xeon 6-core. Today's 6-core Mac starts at $3700.


[Walter Soyka] "You've eliminated a lot of the features (massive memory capacity"

[Craig Seeman] "I didn't mention that at all. That wouldn't change."

You need a pretty large motherboard (and ergo a large case) to fit two CPU sockets, 12 or more RAM slots, and cooling.

Dual-Xeon workstations are big because they have to be, and expensive because the parts don't come cheap. They are not expensive because they're big, or big because of poor industrial design.

Seriously shrinking a dual-Xeon workstation would require either new, custom-built parts from Intel (like the itty bitty processors in the original Air) or a Reality Distortion Field generator inside the case.

Making it cheaper would require a massive pricing concession from Intel.

This notion that Apple can violate the laws of physics and economics by releasing a serious SFF dual-Xeon workstation starting at $2,000 is quite a leap from the state of the art today, but I can't keep arguing this with you. You've worn me down. Undoubtedly, we will have smaller, more powerful computers in the future, but there are real physical and economic reasons encouraging the continued development of the tower form factor.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 24, 2012 at 2:26:12 am

[Walter Soyka] "or a Reality Distortion Field generator inside the case."

And, if I remember correctly, those things require a full 32 lanes on the PCIe board and an adjacent empty slot to hold the unicorn.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 24, 2012 at 2:44:26 am

[Walter Soyka] "You need a pretty large motherboard (and ergo a large case) to fit two CPU sockets, 12 or more RAM slots, and cooling."

Funny. All of that fits on my MacPro mostly on a removable tray slot that takes up about a third of the entire MacPro.

*What follows is all conjecture. What follows is all conjecture. What follows is all conjecture.*

I had to say that three times and bold it just to offer that this is just a discussion.

Seriously, though. Look at the inside of this MacPro.

http://blog.macsales.com/6611-taking-a-peek-inside-the-2010-mac-pro

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-g1Eq_E1AN6w/Tj_MTI9eTUI/AAAAAAAAEk8/U8gg6EgRC-s/apple...

There's a section of RAM/CPU, a section of PCIe, a hard drive section, then a section of optical drives + power supply, and some big handles around the whole thing.

Losing some of the parts, you don't think this could get smaller and lighter?

I understand that there's real implications here (laws of physics you called them), and the bigger processors are definitely more expensive, but I think this can be done and still keep the CPU power, don't you think?

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 24, 2012 at 3:21:39 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "There's a section of RAM/CPU, a section of PCIe, a hard drive section, then a section of optical drives + power supply, and some big handles around the whole thing. Losing some of the parts, you don't think this could get smaller and lighter?"

I think the Mac Pro could lose an inch and a half of just the handles to be rack-mountable before even digging into the internals.

Craig's right that the "empty space" in the Mac Pro case is allocated to the PCIe slots, but remember that he still wants two 16x PCIe slots in his SuperMini for higher throughput than the current generation of Thunderbolt provides.

The rest of space over the motherboard looks empty, but is necessary for the heat sinks, fans and airflow that keep the components cool.


[Jeremy Garchow] "There's a section of RAM/CPU, a section of PCIe, a hard drive section, then a section of optical drives + power supply, and some big handles around the whole thing. Losing some of the parts, you don't think this could get smaller and lighter?"

Can it be shrunk down to Mini size? Certainly not. Can it be shrunk down to Shuttle PC size? I doubt it -- I'm not sure you could fit the Mac Pro's power supply and fans in a Shuttle case.

Can it be smaller and lighter? Yes, a little -- but at what cost?

Which parts do you want to lose? The processors, RAM, cooling and PSU are all required. An internal hard drive (or two or four) just makes good sense. If you don't want an optical drive, you could move the HDD up there and make the case an inch shorter.

Besides, with Thunderbolt expansion into external boxes, you immediately add all that volume and weight back as you add peripherals (plus more, because each device will have its own enclosure, cooling, and power supply).

Is it worth giving up memory capacity, PCIe expansion, or internal storage to save a couple cubic inches of case displacement and a couple pounds? Not to me. The changes that could be made would not be transformative enough to get the Mac Pro into spaces it can't fit now, so I think you'd be giving up an awful lot to save only a little bit of space.

You want transformative change? Just change the existing case's handle configuration so it can be racked horizontally.

Now I do recognize my sizzle core beast bias, so this is an honest, sincere question: do you think the market for a small machine with loads of compute power but not much else is larger than the market for a larger, more traditional, better balanced workstation system?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 24, 2012 at 4:55:53 am

Removing the opticals, extra sata ports, a few hard drives and pcie lanes might knock it down more than an inch and a half, but I know nothing about it really. To my eye, and looking at that case and removing some parts, it could be smaller, I don't think it'd be much cheaper, though.

[Walter Soyka] "Now I do recognize my sizzle core beast bias, so this is an honest, sincere question: do you think the market for a small machine with loads of compute power but not much else is larger than the market for a larger, more traditional, better balanced workstation system?"

I have no idea. I do think a smaller machine has appeal. No way it will be mini sized.

I've been perusing the fcp forum for years now. It is astounding to me the amount of people that use iMacs for their primary editing system, even over MacBook Pros. This is pre-thunderbolt (which actually brings much more professional connectivity/opportunity to iMacs than ever, and now they go up to quad core i7s, and if you stop and appreciate them, a really sweetly engineered machine). People have been making lower power CPUs work for a while, and i bet Apple knows it.

I agree that the bigger processors simply cost much more, so there's no betterr way to cut the overall cost except to put in cheaper processors. But, fitting in to the "lead by design" aspect of Apple, and the advent of Thunderbolt, I do think that ultimately the MacPro case isnt long for this world, and I think people will like it. There's not many people who say, "gee, I wish this thing was bigger, heavier, more loud and a little faster", beyond Walter and the Sizzle Cores. ;)

Plus, if you allow user GPU upgradability, you'll be able to squeeze more out of the box as CPU speed won't be as crucial for editorial.

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 24, 2012 at 2:28:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It is astounding to me the amount of people that use iMacs for their primary editing system, even over MacBook Pros... People have been making lower power CPUs work for a while, and i bet Apple knows it... Plus, if you allow user GPU upgradability, you'll be able to squeeze more out of the box as CPU speed won't be as crucial for editorial."

I agree. I've been saying for months here that you don't need a Mac Pro anymore to edit HD video. A small, moderately user-expandable i7-based box would be a great fit for a lot of editors. They are certainly very popular in the PC world.


[Jeremy Garchow] "There's not many people who say, "gee, I wish this thing was bigger, heavier, more loud and a little faster", beyond Walter and the Sizzle Cores. ;)"

Great name for a band!

There may not be a lot of people who would say that (compared to the size of the iPhone-buying public), but there are entire disciplines in our industry who gladly trade big, heavy, loud, and expensive for faster renders, because faster renders lead to better client results.

A dual Xeon workstation may be a little faster than a quad-core i7 box for editorial, but it's a lot faster for compositing, motion graphics, or 3D. Moving from a real workstation down to a SuperMini for AE, C4D, Maya, or Nuke on the i7 SuperMini would be like putting a bird in a cage. I think it would continue pushing people like me away from the Mac platform.

I'm sure Apple could drop Xeon workstations and barely feel the blip in their bottom line, but it would certainly change the landscape in our business quite a bit.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 24, 2012 at 5:37:42 pm

[Walter Soyka] "There may not be a lot of people who would say that (compared to the size of the iPhone-buying public), but there are entire disciplines in our industry who gladly trade big, heavy, loud, and expensive for faster renders, because faster renders lead to better client results."

I guess it depends. When looking around at PPro and certainly FCPX, renders are becoming less and less necessary during the edit. Even FCPx and PPro have GPU accelerated exports.

I know we have had this discussion before, but if pure speed is what you are looking for for renders, the MacPro isn't the fastest, beefiest machine out there. Apple's have never been the fastest kids on the block.

[Walter Soyka] "A dual Xeon workstation may be a little faster than a quad-core i7 box for editorial, but it's a lot faster for compositing, motion graphics, or 3D. Moving from a real workstation down to a SuperMini for AE, C4D, Maya, or Nuke on the i7 SuperMini would be like putting a bird in a cage. I think it would continue pushing people like me away from the Mac platform."

I hear that. You'd probably be much better off, really, if speed is what you need.

[Walter Soyka] "I'm sure Apple could drop Xeon workstations and barely feel the blip in their bottom line, but it would certainly change the landscape in our business quite a bit."

The changing of landscape train has already left the station. :)

Jeremy


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Walter Soyka
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 24, 2012 at 6:31:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I guess it depends. When looking around at PPro and certainly FCPX, renders are becoming less and less necessary during the edit. Even FCPx and PPro have GPU accelerated exports."

Sorry, I wasn't clear -- I was thinking of AE or C4D renders, which can be measured in seconds or minutes per frame, not frames per second. We agree that i7 plus GPU co-processing probably renders editorial fast enough for most.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I know we have had this discussion before, but if pure speed is what you are looking for for renders, the MacPro isn't the fastest, beefiest machine out there."

Sure, and that's why I'm evaluating cross-platform workflows now.

As you've pointed out, though, both the Mac and Windows platforms each have some unique advantages. There are reasons I might want to choose Mac, but Apple would take platform choice out of my hands entirely if they dropped performance workstations and introduced a nice i7-based SuperMini in the Mac Pro's place.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Apple's have never been the fastest kids on the block."

I don't think that's entirely true. Every Mac Pro has been a decent buy at the time of its release. In 2009, Apple even announced their Nehalem-based Mac Pros in advance of Intel's formal launch of the new architecture.

Mac Pros are competitive at launch, but because Apple doesn't refresh the line at all in between Intel's major architecture releases, they fall behind relative to their competitors in between big updates.


[Walter Soyka] "I'm sure Apple could drop Xeon workstations and barely feel the blip in their bottom line, but it would certainly change the landscape in our business quite a bit."

[Jeremy Garchow] "The changing of landscape train has already left the station. :)"

That wasn't quite what I meant. If I move all my non-editorial production work to PCs for better performance, will FCPX be compelling and open enough to keep my editorial on Macs?

What if the high-end post market gets on that train and rides it all the way to Windows?

Bill Davis might argue I'm in the one percent here, give some rousing populist speech about Apple democratizing media production, and tell me that the lost sales to Walter and the Sizzle Cores don't make a whit of difference to Apple.

He's not wrong about that, but I'm not looking at it from Apple's perspective; I'm looking at it from mine, and I'm still wondering if I fit in.

Sorry for the long-winded diversion on Mac Pros, but hey -- you brought it up in your initial post!

My reliance on sizzle cores certainly doesn't change the fact that seeing 4K play in real time on a little MacBook Air is cool.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 4:39:33 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Current-generation 6-cores run around $1,000, don't they"

Actually even more where I live, around 1.800 dollar for the top end X5690.
I don't see how you could have decent cooling in a smaller box. HP even puts water cooling into its dual cpu machines equipped with the 3.4Ghz model.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 5:08:40 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "HP even puts water cooling into its dual cpu machines equipped with the 3.4Ghz model.
"


After Apple's innumerable issues with the water cooled dual 2.7ghz G5s, thousands of which leaked an required replacement, I doubt you'll be seeing a water cooled Mac again anytime soon.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 5:30:04 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "I doubt you'll be seeing a water cooled Mac again anytime soon."

Oh, I agree. But the point is that keeping these cpus cool is not something that can be done with a much smaller case and passive cooling. Plus there's the ram and gpu as well that require good airflow. It's those parts that take up space, not an optical drive, a bunch of hard drives or a few pci slots more or less.
A workstation class processor and architecture requires a workstation enclosure.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 6:43:23 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "there's the ram and gpu as well that require good airflow. It's those parts that take up space, not an optical drive, a bunch of hard drives or a few pci slots more or less.
A workstation class processor and architecture requires a workstation enclosure."


Do keep in mind that Intel has worked hard to lower the power consumption needs of processors at every level, which has enabled them to produce cooler-running and much more efficient computers in recent years.

In addition, the current crop of hard drives are also virtually cool to the touch, thus requiring far less cooling as well.

So, I think the footprint for future Mac workstations, if there are any, may be significantly smaller than the current towers we've grown used to.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 6:58:05 pm

Agreed, the new Xeons peek at around 110 w which is lower than previous generations, but two times 110 plus, as Craig Seeman suggested, expansion for two possible GPUS still means an 600-800w power supply. And that's a lot of heat for a little box to cope with.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 7:13:32 pm

We've thrown down the gauntlet to Sir Jonathan Ive. Let's see if the Knight can come to the rescue with brilliant industrial design.



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John Heagy
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 7:26:55 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Let's see if the Knight can come to the rescue with brilliant industrial design."

That design is most certainly long done and a prototype sitting on Cook's desk waiting for a "thumbs up" or down from the emperor.

John


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John Heagy
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:37:47 pm

Interesting, and not too surprising it was demonstrated on Windows based on what I read on Magna's site http://www.magma.com/thunderbolt.asp. According to Magna a Thunderbolt attached PCIe chassis appears to Windows exactly like internal PCIe slots. The same is not true for OS X and using external graphics cards in these chassises is currently impossible.

This gives me hope that a MacPro with a few PCIe slots is coming. Without it there's no way to use a PCIe GPU even with a Thunderbolt PCIe expansion chassis.

John


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 7:59:27 pm

It might be Apple will have an OS update along with whatever replaces the MacPro that will resolve this issue.



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Shane Ross
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 19, 2012 at 11:51:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yowza. So uhh, about those MacPros...."

Yeah, who needs larger screen space than 13"? Who needs two monitors, and external drive, and IO device and external broadcast monitoring? That will be a lot of TB loop through. TB to Promise to IO...yes, then to Production monitor. But what about secondary computer monitor? You mean people can edit from a 13", or 11" screen? I guess, if they have 20-30 clips.

Sorry, MacPros are needed.

Yeah, you can get an iMac and do the same thing, but have the external monitoring because they have two TB ports. But they are GLOSSY! As are Apple's TB monitors. Glossy is NOT idea for editing. But, again, what does Apple care about the needs of Pros?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Neil Goodman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 12:11:42 am

[Shane Ross] ""Quote""


if you keep your room dark like i do, glossy is not a problem.. sunny room, sure its a pain.

Fortunately i use 2 23 inch matte cinema displays at work and yea there great, but in my home office, i keep it dark and the glossy screen doesnt bother me at all.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 12:23:11 am

Finally, some descent. I knew it wouldn't be long. This is just Mac hardware, windows OS. If this was running on an Acer laptop, would it not be pro enough for you?

The only thing missing form that demo in your requests is a computer monitor.

Apple makes a thunderbolt display, and thunderbolt by its very nature is display port, which means any displayport monitor should work.

Thunderbolt is made for loop through.


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Shane Ross
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 1:00:52 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Finally, some descent. I knew it wouldn't be long."

I live to argue with you! :)

[Jeremy Garchow] "The only thing missing form that demo in your requests is a computer monitor."

Well...that's a BIG thing. I mean, the Air is either 13", or 11". Are you really going to edit with that small of a screen?

[Jeremy Garchow] "If this was running on an Acer laptop, would it not be pro enough for you?"

Of course not. What makes you think I do? I don't recall saying anything of the sort.

"Thunderbolt is made for loop through."

OK, but not when the device only has one TB port...like the Apple TB monitor. Like the BMD IO devices. Those only have one TB port. The ONLY devices that have loop-through are the hard drives (thus far). So you can go TB out of the computer to the drive then to the IO device...OR the Apple display. Can't do both. If it was designed for loop-through, why do so few devices offer it?

[Jeremy Garchow] "Might as well drag out the MacPro on set to review/transcode Red footage as a laptop based system surely can't handle capture, playback, broadcast out, editing and storage.

Why bother with a 3lb laptop when a 40lb MacPro will suffice?"


OK...this is a good solution for on the set. Not arguing there. The MacPro was never a great solution for the set...but it was what was needed for the longest time. But to say that TB makes it so we no longer need the MacPros AT ALL? That's pretty short sighted. Why not make a MacPro with TB? Multiple TB connections? Wait, what about graphics cards? They are pretty important to the performance of many apps, like Adobe Premiere Pro, and Motion, Resolve...dunno about FCX, does that rely on GPU? When you are limited to the puny graphics cards that are in the Apple laptops, you are hamstrung.

Can't use RESOLVE on an iMac...or laptop. The IO card required for it doesn't connect via TB. So for Resolve on a Mac, you need a Mac Pro. And one of a handful of graphics cards. Even if BMD then makes a TB IO card for Resolve, you still can't use it with a MacBook Air, MacMini, iMac...graphics cards are now the issue.

If Apple discontinues the MacPro...Resolve on the Mac is dead. And would be further proof that Apple gives a rats arse about the high end pros they used to RELY ON to survive.

I'm not saying that it isn't REALLY NICE to be able to do this on a laptop...a MacBook Air. I LOVE that this is a possibility. Means that we can have these really nice, light computers on set, on location to do what we need. But for you to say "So uhh, about those MacPros...." as if to say "so, do we really need MacPros now?"

Yes we do.

Again, you surprise me with your attitudes about this. You are a high end professional and not only embrace an app that doesn't do a lot of stuff high end pros need, but now you seem to think that we no longer need MacPros.

Unless I am COMPLETELY MISREADING your statement, and you only meant it as "who needs a MacPro on set now?" instead of "who needs MacPros anymore?" Which I know is entirely possible on a forum post...misreading a statement is an all-to-common occurrence. So, do you mean "who needs the MacPro anymore?" or "Who needs a MacPro on the set?"

Are you ready to be a high end Pro using an iMac (that does have two TB ports)?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 2:00:25 am

[Shane Ross] "Well...that's a BIG thing. I mean, the Air is either 13", or 11". Are you really going to edit with that small of a screen? "

Everyday? No. But look at this demo. It could be done with a 17" MacBook pro. I have and do edit on a 17" MacBook pro when on the road.

[Shane Ross] "Of course not. What makes you think I do? I don't recall saying anything of the sort."

I think it as something like, "what does apple care about pros"?

[Shane Ross] "OK, but not when the device only has one TB port...like the Apple TB monitor. Like the BMD IO devices. Those only have one TB port. The ONLY devices that have loop-through are the hard drives (thus far). So you can go TB out of the computer to the drive then to the IO device...OR the Apple display. Can't do both. If it was designed for loop-through, why do so few devices offer it?"

Cost, I imagine. The AJA ioXT has loop through, the Sonnet box in that demo has loop through, as does storage. Displays are "end of chain" devices so far. Everything in that demo has loop through, save the Blackmagic box. If the ioXT was shipping, it certainly could have been there with loop through, and then you'd have a display.

[Shane Ross] "OK...this is a good solution for on the set. Not arguing there. The MacPro was never a great solution for the set...but it was what was needed for the longest time. But to say that TB makes it so we no longer need the MacPros AT ALL?"

*shrug*. Do we? I mean, I still need a MacPro at the office for San connections, but will I in two years? A year? I don't know. When I look at this technology demo (and that's all it is guys, a demo or proof of concept) I start to wonder. Is that short sighted? I work mobile occasionally, and I can comfortably edit red raw on a laptop with some other gear and have it all fit in a carry on? Yeah, I'm down and I'm not afraid.

[Shane Ross] "Why not make a MacPro with TB? Multiple TB connections?"

Desktop processors aren't ready. I'm sure we will see one when they are. Then, I can edit in the field, come back and plug all that same gear right in to a desktop. So do I need a MacPro? Or do I just need a box with higher power CPUs and RAM?

[Shane Ross] "Wait, what about graphics cards? They are pretty important to the performance of many apps, like Adobe Premiere Pro, and Motion, Resolve...dunno about FCX, does that rely on GPU? When you are limited to the puny graphics cards that are in the Apple laptops, you are hamstrung. "

Yes, they are. And since this demo was running Windows, you can have external GPUs as well. Look, I know this is all new, and it's still one huge test, but I think it's short sighted to deny what is going on here.

FCPX uses openCL, so yes it relies on GPU, just not quite like other applications.

[Shane Ross] "Can't use RESOLVE on an iMac...or laptop. The IO card required for it doesn't connect via TB. So for Resolve on a Mac, you need a Mac Pro. And one of a handful of graphics cards. Even if BMD then makes a TB IO card for Resolve, you still can't use it with a MacBook Air, MacMini, iMac...graphics cards are now the issue. "

Certainly. Today, you are absolutely right. Tomorrow? Remember, thunderbolt is not Apple technology, it's intel with Apple's help to push it out of the door.

[Shane Ross] "If Apple discontinues the MacPro...Resolve on the Mac is dead. And would be further proof that Apple gives a rats arse about the high end pros they used to RELY ON to survive."

Again, this was Mac hardware running windows. With windows, you can have external GPUs (as evidenced by the demo, as a rocket card seems to be a custom GPU). Resolve is being ported to windows.

[Shane Ross] "I'm not saying that it isn't REALLY NICE to be able to do this on a laptop...a MacBook Air. I LOVE that this is a possibility. Means that we can have these really nice, light computers on set, on location to do what we need. But for you to say "So uhh, about those MacPros...." as if to say "so, do we really need MacPros now?" "

Today, we do. It was a rhetorical question, not a statement or mandate. If you need a 24 sizzle core beast for your VFX work, have at it. Plenty of manufacturers make them, but for editorial and color? Maybe not.

[Shane Ross] "Again, you surprise me with your attitudes about this. You are a high end professional and not only embrace an app that doesn't do a lot of stuff high end pros need, but now you seem to think that we no longer need MacPros. "

The proof is in the pudding. Before this tech demo, I would have said, desktop or die. After the demo, I say the desktop may be dying? (for me and my little editorial needs. Skywalker Ranch, we are not). It's just a question and it won't happen overnight and this demo is some serious proof. And really, this demo has nothing to do with Apple. If there was a windows laptop that had Thunderbolt, there would be no Apple products in it at all. OSX is not in this demo.

As far as me "embracing" FCPX, I like to think I am remaining rather balanced. I will tell you exactly where it falls short. It doesn't do all that I need, that's why I constantly say I can't use it everyday, but there is some kickass concepts in there that I am rather excited about. Am I wrong in thinking that way? Can't I learn from good ideas, no matter if they aren't perfect for me or my situation, or the greater good? aren't I allowed to give it a shot and give it half a second to mature, or give Apple a chance to deliver what they have said they are going to deliver? Or am I being short sighted again?

[Shane Ross] "Unless I am COMPLETELY MISREADING your statement, and you only meant it as "who needs a MacPro on set now?" instead of "who needs MacPros anymore?" Which I know is entirely possible on a forum post...misreading a statement is an all-to-common occurrence. So, do you mean "who needs the MacPro anymore?" or "Who needs a MacPro on the set?" "

I can't get rid of my MacPro quite yet, but I'd be a fool to say that I might not need one in a few years for editorial.

[Shane Ross] "Are you ready to be a high end Pro using an iMac (that does have two TB ports)?"

Using an iMac does not mean a non-pro to me. I don't give a rats ass what it is as long as I can connect to the current infrastructure and have enough power to get the job done. What do I care if it's an iMac, an Air, or a desktop? My clients don't call and say, was this edited on a desktop?

Jeremy


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Shane Ross
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 2:11:59 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Shane Ross] "Of course not. What makes you think I do? I don't recall saying anything of the sort."

I think it as something like, "what does apple care about pros"?"


Other computer makers make towers. HP Z800 for example. PC towers aren't going away.

[Jeremy Garchow] "The AJA ioXT has loop through"

Ahh....missed that. Good device!

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have and do edit on a 17" MacBook pro when on the road."

So have I. 17" is a lot more than 13". And I have edited on a 13" machine too. Not fun.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Desktop processors aren't ready. I'm sure we will see one when they are."

They aren't? Then what are all the HPs and Dells and other Windows Desktops running?

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you need a 24 sizzle core beast for your VFX work, have at it. Plenty of manufacturers make them, but for editorial and color? Maybe not."

WE all need to render at some point. Not every effect is full quality/real time. And shortened render times are good things. Export times too...encoding to H.264, Broadcast MPEG-2, WMV. Processor power is a GOOD thing for the many tasks we in basic editorial still need to do.

[Jeremy Garchow] "What do I care if it's an iMac, an Air, or a desktop? My clients don't call and say, was this edited on a desktop?"

Client perception is huge. And you aren't always alone with your own devices. Many times you have clients in the room, and if they see a small laptop, or iMac, they will wonder, "is this guy really a professional?" I hate that perception...but many clients, AGENCIES mainly, have that perception.

Anyways...I'd love a kick ass laptop, but I need big dual screens for my work. I have a LOT of footage to sort through and need the screen space.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:11:43 am

[Shane Ross] "Other computer makers make towers. HP Z800 for example. PC towers aren't going away."

Is was a bit premature, but HP was thinking about spinning off their desktop line last year.

[Shane Ross] "They aren't? Then what are all the HPs and Dells and other Windows Desktops running? "

As far as I know, there are no desktop processors that are thunderbolt capable. No windows machines have thunderbolt let alone desktops. This is true now, but will change as soon as the processors are ready, like I mentioned.

[Shane Ross] "WE all need to render at some point. Not every effect is full quality/real time. And shortened render times are good things. Export times too...encoding to H.264, Broadcast MPEG-2, WMV. Processor power is a GOOD thing for the many tasks we in basic editorial still need to do."

I now you haven't played with fcpx, but certain exports are GPU accelerated, and you don't have to render your timeline at all and effects still play. I turn rendering off. I'm not crazy, there's some cool shit in fcpx. Premiere has a similar setup, only render when you need with some Cuda accelerated effects, with media encoder getting a bit of GPU acceleration for encodes.

[Shane Ross] "Client perception is huge. And you aren't always alone with your own devices. Many times you have clients in the room, and if they see a small laptop, or iMac, they will wonder, "is this guy really a professional?" I hate that perception...but many clients, AGENCIES mainly, have that perception. "

Ok. Then buy a desktop if you need the image.

Our desktops are hidden in a closet along with our noisy SAN. They come in and see no computers. They don't seem to mind, but hey, if you need to strut your stuff, then you need to strut your stuff.

[Shane Ross] "Anyways...I'd love a kick ass laptop, but I need big dual screens for my work. I have a LOT of footage to sort through and need the screen space."

I don't know what to say. Laptops have supported two monitors since time immemorial, or whatever.

Also, I was wrong, apple thunderbolt displays do support daisy chaining. It's displayport displays that are end of chain.

Jeremy


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Virgil Weinstock
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 6:50:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Is was a bit premature, but HP was thinking about spinning off their desktop line last year."

The guy who said that was almost immediately fired. For other reasons, yes, but the timing couldn't possibly have been coincidental.

The new CEO immediately said, "We'll evaluate," which is code for "I'm sure he was on crack, but I should probably learn my secretary's name and where the bathrooms are first," and took a couple of weeks to say, "Yep, he was on crack. We're a computer company. We make computers."

Not to say that it will never happen, but "HP" may or may not have been thinking about going strictly cloud, but HP put a bullet in the head of the guy who actually said it out loud. The moral of the story is that HP is NOT thinking about it any time soon. The new boss is NOT the same as the old boss.

I guarantee that Apple will drop Mac Pros before HP drops workstations...and I'm not thinking Apple is in a hurry to drop Mac Pros...

So if you're going to say that "HP thought about it," you have to add, "...and then immediately double-tapped the guy behind the ear."


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 10:30:23 pm

[Virgil Weinstock] "[Jeremy Garchow] "Is was a bit premature, but HP was thinking about spinning off their desktop line last year."

The guy who said that was almost immediately fired. For other reasons, yes, but the timing couldn't possibly have been coincidental.

The new CEO immediately said, "We'll evaluate," which is code for "I'm sure he was on crack, but I should probably learn my secretary's name and where the bathrooms are first," and took a couple of weeks to say, "Yep, he was on crack. We're a computer company. We make computers."

Not to say that it will never happen, but "HP" may or may not have been thinking about going strictly cloud, but HP put a bullet in the head of the guy who actually said it out loud. The moral of the story is that HP is NOT thinking about it any time soon. The new boss is NOT the same as the old boss.

I guarantee that Apple will drop Mac Pros before HP drops workstations...and I'm not thinking Apple is in a hurry to drop Mac Pros...

So if you're going to say that "HP thought about it," you have to add, "...and then immediately double-tapped the guy behind the ear.""


They did think about it. I don't think it was one person's decision.

http://www2.hp.com/t5/The-Next-Bench-Blog/A-40-Billion-Start-up/ba-p/69111'>http://h20435.http://www2.hp.com/t5/The-Next-Bench-Blog/A-40-Billion-Start-up/ba-p/69111


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Bill Davis
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 5:49:50 am

[Shane Ross] "Anyways...I'd love a kick ass laptop, but I need big dual screens for my work. I have a LOT of footage to sort through and need the screen space.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def"


Shane,

Like if or not, this is the whole point of the database in X. Huge screen real estate is critical when you're largely conditioned to locating clips visually. But when you tie them to a very functional database and smart keywording, screen real estate actually becomes much less critical.

Back before I upgraded my graphics card to be Open CL compatible to run X if you'd asked me, I'd have said not having my 30" cinema display for editing was going to be a major loss. But a funny thing happened.

I now find that scrolling through pages and pages of clip icons is something I only want to do during times I select for creative exploration. For most edit purposes, where I already know what clip I need, keyword search was is so very much faster and more powerful that "clip scrolling" becomes a chore rather than something enjoyable.

It's an alternate "option" that I highly value now. Like lots of my former thinking and editing behavior, what I used to do has altered from being the only "best practice" to my seeing it as "one of" my best practices after seeing alternate methods in FCP- X.

You may always want the "big display" of clip alternatives laid out visually. But having the choice to tap in a name and have the clip (or a smaller range of possible clips) for selection is a gigantic improvement, IMO.

Your mileage will surely vary.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Richard Herd
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 5:26:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "I now find that scrolling through pages and pages of clip icons is something I only want to do during times I select for creative exploration. For most edit purposes, where I already know what clip I need, keyword search was is so very much faster and more powerful that "clip scrolling" becomes a chore rather than something enjoyable."

Seconded.

In legacy FCP I used a lot of markers. The keywords are better markers, IMO. Instead of marking a single frame, I mark (keyword reallY) a range.

The real problem I'm having is trying to keep the keywords regularized. I still don't have a nomenclature system yet.

Any good advice would be welcome, of course.

For example, I'm cutting a film, the writer/director's first attempt. My first pass at keywords was with the script and I'd label them as Scene 1. Then selected scene 1 and all the scene 1 coverage shows up. Keyword again for WS, MS, CU etc. Then I keyworded the coverage for favorites.

It seemed to work okay. Generally speaking I screened each scene twice and had a decent assemble of each scene based on the following hierarchy search: Scene 1/Favorites. My favorite WS, MS, CU etc were the only pieces of footage taking up screen real estate when it was time to blade it.

One more cool thing! You can double click each edit point and dial in the precision.

The actual cutting process of X is pretty cool.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 12:24:31 am

[Shane Ross] "Yeah, you can get an iMac and do the same thing, but have the external monitoring because they have two TB ports."

Two ports but nevertheless only 1 controller so no difference to the Air.
I'd be interested in seeing some reports on how chaining devices impacts bandwith. It's only PCIe 4x - Red-Rocket, Raid and IO, something has to choke at a certain point.
Said it before - great additional IO option, no replacement for PCIe, no replacement for a tower.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 12:33:29 am

[Frank Gothmann] "Said it before - great additional IO option, no replacement for PCIe, no replacement for a tower."

You're right.

Might as well drag out the MacPro on set to review/transcode Red footage as a laptop based system surely can't handle capture, playback, broadcast out, editing and storage.

Why bother with a 3lb laptop when a 40lb MacPro will suffice?


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 12:49:11 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "You're right.

Might as well drag out the MacPro on set to review/transcode Red footage as a laptop based system surely can't handle capture, playback, broadcast out, editing and storage.

Why bother with a 3lb laptop when a 40lb MacPro will suffice?"


Why is it that people here tend to take a very specific example and try to generalise it.

If a TB equiped Air, running Windows, using a not-yet-released hw box can handle a very specific task it instantly and automatically means all currently established means of doing all sorts of things have become obsolete. Without any data or real-world reports to substantiate that. Not quite so.

I don't want to take your TB goodness away, why of why are you so hot about killing of what others may need to get their work done?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 2:02:48 am

[Frank Gothmann] "If a TB equiped Air, running Windows, using a not-yet-released hw box can handle a very specific task it instantly and automatically means all currently established means of doing all sorts of things have become obsolete. Without any data or real-world reports to substantiate that. Not quite so."

In all fairness, Frank, I was not generalizing. I was sticking to what the demo showed.

Red raw editorial playback, simultaneous SDI capture, fast storage, a screen capture. Unless this video is a fake, this is happening.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 2:30:36 am

You original post said "Yowza. So uhh, about those MacPros....".

Somebody else replied:
A lot of people are predicting the death of MacPros but with new technology like this, will it matter?"

So unless I am misreading, the implication is that a tower isn't really required anymore, a refresh is less likely because of what the demo shows and its demise won't matter.
Which is generalising, because is IS required for tons of other stuff, just not that one specific example (unless you need to render of course).


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:16:44 am

[Frank Gothmann] "So unless I am misreading, the implication is that a tower isn't really required anymore, a refresh is less likely because of what the demo shows and its demise won't matter.
Which is generalising, because is IS required for tons of other stuff, just not that one specific example (unless you need to render of course)."


And I'd invite you to reread my reply to that question. Or I can still forever be the bad guy around here whenever something cool comes up.

It's a question. A discussion; not a mandate.

It's alright to ask questions.

I think there'll be another MacPro. They won't be around for much longer after that.

It doesn't matter, "everyone" will be on windows at that point anyway, so who cares, right?


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:53:44 am

I don't think you're the bad guy though it seems you like to be since you brought that up before. My first response in this threat wasn't even aimed at you. You felt inclined to comment, in a sarcastic way, and I felt inclined to respond back because there is nothing in my original comment you can disagree with, or is there?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 4:19:49 am

[Frank Gothmann] "My first response in this threat wasn't even aimed at you"

Threats, is it?! Well, now Frankie, we see ya for who ya are. Careful boys, he's got a cheese grater.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 4:29:02 am

[Frank Gothmann] "I don't think you're the bad guy though it seems you like to be since you brought that up before."

Quite the opposite. I'm like Casper. I guess I was reacting to be called short sighted (not by you), and offering generalization.

That demo was very impressive to me. I have not seen thunderbolt in action quite like this.

Sure, some people might need towers today, but soon, perhaps they won't, maybe, don't know. Once thunderbolt is more than 4x....

As far as Apple, they won't have a need to build MacPros much longer to further their business.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 5:40:57 am

First off, I don't see how anyone can watch that demo and not be impressed. 4k playback, screen recording and recording a feed from an external camera via SDI all happening concurrently on a MacBook Air! Seriously?!?

I'm not going to wave the 'desktops are dead' flag but technology stands still for no man. There will always be a niche that needs the fastest money can buy but that niche keeps getting smaller and smaller. How long did it take for SGI to go from hi-end workhorse to bankrupt?


Shane,
I agree that client perception is a factor at times but client perception changes as well. I mean, look at an old linear bay, a room full of specialized gear, compared to an off-the-shelf computer running FCP 7. The 'wow factor' certainly goes to the linear bay yet NLEs, many of which ran on everyday computers, killed them.


Jeremy,
As I understand it, it's not that there are no desktop procs that can work w/ThB it's that Apple is waiting for the new (and delayed) intel CPUs to come out before they refresh the Mac Pro line (which will presumably include ThB). Apple also had 1 year of ThB exclusivity which is why there are no PCs w/ThB but now that the exclusivity window is over a number of PC makers have announced ThB products. I've also read that Apple has been gobbling up almost all of the ThB chips which is one reason ThB peripherals have been slow to hit the market.


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 6:25:00 am

[Andrew Kimery] "As I understand it, it's not that there are no desktop procs that can work w/ThB it's that Apple is waiting for the new (and delayed) intel CPUs to come out before they refresh the Mac Pro line (which will presumably include ThB)"

Hmm. I thought the new sandy/ivy Bridge Over River Kwai (or whatever) desktop chips are the only desktop class TBolt procs. I understand i7s are in some pc desktops, but I'm talking the bigger, more robust, power crunch egg fryers.

If there's a 1 year apple exclusive, it must be over soon. It's going to be fun!


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 7:05:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Hmm. I thought the new sandy/ivy Bridge Over River Kwai (or whatever) desktop chips are the only desktop class TBolt procs. I understand i7s are in some pc desktops, but I'm talking the bigger, more robust, power crunch egg fryers.

If there's a 1 year apple exclusive, it must be over soon. It's going to be fun!"


You could be right. I haven't paid super close attention to it. I know that there is ThB controller chip that has to be on the MoBo itself which is why, AFAIK, ThB can't be added via a PCIe card to an existing machine. From what I've read I thought the lack of ThB in towers was just because Apple didn't want to release new MP's until they could put the new intel chips in them (which have been delayed). There could certainly be a tech reason behind it as well. I guess in the end it doesn't matter as Apple is holding off on new MPs until the new intel CPUs are out.

The one year of exclusivity has ended and some PC makers are saying they'll have ThB machines out by spring. Since it's an intel pioneered tech I think it will have a much broader adoption rate than FW.

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 7:39:02 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Since it's an intel pioneered tech I think it will have a much broader adoption rate than FW."

I completely agree.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 12:12:51 pm

I agree that it's an impressive demo. And I agree that it's great for anybody who needs fast io on the road with mobile devices. Never disputed that.

All I am saying is that there's a lot more to the whole story than the one-example-fits-all approach.

There's the driver issue, energy is a problem since most GPUs draw much more power than the external box can provide.

PCIe 3.0, on a dual cpu tower, will pack 80 lanes vs TB's 4x so even a future revision of TB will have to go a long way to match that. Power is not an issue and Sandy Bridge Xeons will outperform regular i7s.

And PCIe 4.0 is in development, as is external PCIe.
So.. why limit the possibilities, why build even more walls? My clients don't walk in with TB or FW800 drives. Most come with USB 2.0, some USB 3.0 or eSata. I doubt this will change anytime soon.Wouldn't it be convenient to have these built in, no adapters, especially since it's only politics why Apple chooses not too, no technical reason whatsoever.

Do I need that kind of performance provided by PCIe 3.0? Maybe, maybe not, but it's there, today, so why should I settle for less if the mobility advantage of TB has zero value for me as I simply don't work on the road and the cost of deploying TB is more expensive, less compatible and has limited cross platform capabilities.
It has zero advantage for me so I refuse to cheer at the prospect of this being the only choice for high bandwidth io in Apple's future. I'll happily cheer at the prospect of it being an addition, not a replacement.

Yes, Apple probably won't have to build MacPros anymore to further their business. To me, that's bad.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:02:52 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "All I am saying is that there's a lot more to the whole story than the one-example-fits-all approach"

Of course there is. But we also know Apple's history. If this is the way it's going, and I want to keep using OSX, then I can only use the tools that I have available. This demo proves to me, that there's a lot of potential here. Not to replace desktops, but to have all the power and connectivity of a desktop in a much more flexible form factor (for my needs, perhaps not yours).


[Frank Gothmann] "There's the driver issue, energy is a problem since most GPUs draw much more power than the external box can provide."

Yeah, manufacturers will need to retool their drivers. It's already happening. As far as power, not sure what you mean. Why will it need more than what you can get from the outlet on the wall?

[Frank Gothmann] "And PCIe 4.0 is in development, as is external PCIe.
So.. why limit the possibilities, why build even more walls? My clients don't walk in with TB or FW800 drives. Most come with USB 2.0, some USB 3.0 or eSata. I doubt this will change anytime soon.Wouldn't it be convenient to have these built in, no adapters, especially since it's only politics why Apple chooses not too, no technical reason whatsoever. "


Macs don't have USB ports? I'm not following you here. Are there other computers that have built in sata? Clients always send me USB drives too as they are the cheapest/most ubiquitous.

It is true, 4x can't cut it for everyone, but it's just the beginning. That demo is a beginning. There's no reason for me, personally, for PCIe 4.0 at the moment. Thunderbolt presents more opportunity, for me and my needs, than a faster pcie bus. I like fast CPUs as well, but this demo was an eye opener.

[Frank Gothmann] "It has zero advantage for me so I refuse to cheer at the prospect of this being the only choice for high bandwidth io in Apple's future. I'll happily cheer at the prospect of it being an addition, not a replacement.

Yes, Apple probably won't have to build MacPros anymore to further their business. To me, that's bad."


We see it differently and that's fine. Thunderbolt is more flexible, which is good for me personally. I'll take that over more lanes.

I do think we will see another MacPro or two, but for apple, it doesn't make sense to keep producing them if they don't sell. I do believe they will offer an alternative that won't be an iMac or a MacPro. If not, there's plenty of PCs that will fit the bill.

Jeremy


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 3:53:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "As far as power, not sure what you mean. Why will it need more than what you can get from the outlet on the wall?"

The box can only acomodate cards that draw a max of 150 Watts (the smaller enclosure only 80, same for the MSI). Most GPUs draw more than that. A Quadro 4000, according to spec, draws 142, that's too close for compfort if it spikes. A current Radeon HD 7970 peaks at over 270 w.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Macs don't have USB ports? I'm not following you here. Are there other computers that have built in sata? Clients always send me USB drives too as they are the cheapest/most ubiquitous."

What I am saying is that I'd like to see a broad range of IO options based on real world usage. There is USB2, FW800 and TB in Apple's future. Why can't we have USB3, eSata, FW800, TB, hdmi and whatever is actually out there. Apple's concept of pushing a certain technology by eliminating or keeping out others has not worked in the past, why is it always the same story all over again where people end up on an island having to buy adapters that introduce more issues (eg display port) and cost.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 4:32:41 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "The box can only acomodate cards that draw a max of 150 Watts (the smaller enclosure only 80, same for the MSI). Most GPUs draw more than that. A Quadro 4000, according to spec, draws 142, that's too close for compfort if it spikes. A current Radeon HD 7970 peaks at over 270 w. "

Ah. That can be fixed with more powerful electronics. Not too worried about that. This is just a start.

[Frank Gothmann] "What I am saying is that I'd like to see a broad range of IO options based on real world usage. There is USB2, FW800 and TB in Apple's future. Why can't we have USB3, eSata, FW800, TB, hdmi and whatever is actually out there. Apple's concept of pushing a certain technology by eliminating or keeping out others has not worked in the past, why is it always the same story all over again where people end up on an island having to buy adapters that introduce more issues (eg display port) and cost."

it's the way Apple has worked for a long time, so I guess it's not surprising to me. Yes, thunderbolt might require an adapter, but you buy what you need and don't buy what you don't. It's very flexible.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 5:10:20 pm

LaCie eSata to Thunderbolt
http://modmyi.com/content/6535-ces-2012-lacie-hub-allows-esata-drives-conne...

Belkin USB2, Firewire 800, HDMI to Thunderbolt.
http://modmyi.com/content/6548-ces-2012-belkin-adds-new-dock-list-thunderbo...

Sonnet Express Cart to Thunderbolt
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoexpresscard34thunderbolt.html

The only thing I'm not seeing on the way is USB3 to Thunderbolt. One can speculate why not.

Although it's been alluded to, the advantage of Thunderbolt is that, unlike PCIe cards, such devices will be able to move from desktop (once implemented) to portable device right on down to the MacBook Air and, soon, Acer and Lenovo laptops as well. Unless you're a "Pro" that has no use for portable computing, this is a major breakthrough in convenience. When you consider Magma Expansion chassis, even certain PCIe cards become portable as well as cross platform. Granted there are PCIe needs such as 16x GPUs which really are dedicated to workstations given Thunderbolt limitations but just because there's some exceptions, doesn't make this a major PROFESSIONAL improvement.

One might edit on a MacBook Air, they are now viable for use in the field if you need to cut together a few shots to show a client in the field during a shoot.



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Frank Gothmann
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 6:00:26 pm

Which is what I have said: lots of adapters, at a cost: your product links incl. the Magma box will set you back 2.000 bucks. Pile them up and you have a "tower", both in size and weight. And most of that cost will be on the Mac user bill because hdmi, esata, usb3 etc. are standard ports on most Lenovo and Acer portables already so prices are not likely to go down too much for the Mac market alone.
Raid connectivity etc. to an Air or Macbook Pro - yeah, that is great. No doubt. Still no reason not to have standard ports built in.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 6:10:41 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Pile them up and you have a "tower", both in size and weight."

Not quite. They can all be used with portable devices and they certainly do not weigh 40 lbs. That you can move any of these from computer to computer, even desktop to desktop (if/when MacPros are updated/replaced) will be a major increase in flexibility. Imagine being able to move Video I/O from computer as needed rather than having to buy cards for every single workstation. For some facilities this is going to be a cost savings.

While the need for workstations may still be there, that every workstation needs to be equipped with everything is inefficient for many facilities. That all this can now be assigned to specific machines as needed both in house and on location, is going to be a major step forward.



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kim krause
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 22, 2012 at 9:21:37 am

hey jeremy...how come you can get away with saying this stuff and when i try i get labelled an idiot or a toad or whatever. 3 cheers for you for proving my points and fighting the fight. keep it up....traded my mb pro for a air and gonna drop the tower as soon as i get the bmd tb interface. going mini for the front end and mini servers for the rest.


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Richard Herd
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 6:07:28 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Why is it that people here tend to take a very specific example and try to generalise it."

All learning environments are inductive. So is science. Only mathematics and formal logic proceed deductively.


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Paul Jay
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 8:27:24 am

Im tired of the 'Apple doesnt care about pro' whining.
You think they created thunderbolt for office and iphoto users?
Please use your brain.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 9:40:15 am

"You think they created thunderbolt for office and iphoto users?"

Apple didn't create Thunder Bolt. And yes, office and iPhoto users (can and will) benefit from it... just like they currently do from eSata and USB 2.0.

Shawn



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Rafael Amador
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 10:08:46 am

[Bill Davis] "Like if or not, this is the whole point of the database in X. Huge screen real estate is critical when you're largely conditioned to locating clips visually. But when you tie them to a very functional database and smart keywording, screen real estate actually becomes much less critical. "
Spend 8 hours a day editing on an small screen and you will regret it.
Big screens is not just a matter of health and comfort but also the only way to appreciate the quality and possible problems on your footage.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 20, 2012 at 6:47:50 pm

[Paul Jay] " Im tired of the 'Apple doesnt care about pro' whining.
You think they created thunderbolt for office and iphoto users?
Please use your brain."


Okay, I'll use my brain.

ThunderBolt is a single port that can do everything from drive a display to plug into fast, external storage to connect to b'cast quality I/O devices. Apple killed legacy ports with the USB-centric iMacs years ago and also jumped between FW and USB connectors on the iPod before finally deciding on the 'catch all' 30-pin port that is now on all their iDevices.

Given the desire for clean lines and simplicity I'm sure there are mock-ups of devices at Apple that don't have anything but USB 2 and ThB ports.

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Dave Helmly
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 6:32:10 am

Jeremy,

just a quick note to say thanks for posting the link. It seems most people get the basic idea that I was trying to draw attention to Thunderbolt in general and the possibilities it brings for editors. I should mention for our Mac Users, that I ran the same test on Macbook Air using 10.7 and it kicked @ss. I edit a lot on both platforms and both sides should be impressed.

The purpose was not to compare either OS which the cow users seem to get (other forums are hung on the fact I used Windows ) but to show multiple devices in a chain. Running windows just opens the user base even more to show TB vendors that we need more devices. I should mention that getting the stuff to run on windows TB requires Windows drivers for each device (same as mac) so you can't simply connect a TB device and have it work (with the exception of the Apple TB 27" display) .

Another thing for the Cow users to note is that each type of computer has different limitations to how many TB devices can be connected and in what order. I refer to this as THUNDER WARS and you'll know what I mean once lots of devices start showing up and people try to get everything running perfectly. I've got a ton of various early beta TB devices in the lab and it can be challenging at times understanding why things work and don't work - not a lot of notes on it yet. I think we're writing it as we go along;) I think all this will work out over time. Both Intel and RED have been very supportive of the things we are working on - stay tuned.

Anyone heading to NAB might stop by our booth, I'll try and have this or a similar demo setup for people to check out. The realtime scrubbing and playback has to be experienced to be believed. As true geek myself, it takes a lot to get my jaw to drop and this did it pretty quick.

thanks

DKH


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 5:54:34 pm

[Dave Helmly] "just a quick note to say thanks for posting the link. "

:) That's funny, I'd like to thank YOU for posting the link, which really means thanks for putting together the demo.

[Dave Helmly] "I should mention for our Mac Users, that I ran the same test on Macbook Air using 10.7 and it kicked @ss. I edit a lot on both platforms and both sides should be impressed. "

Great to know. I wasn't hung up in the OS as the computer you used allowed me to work with either Mac or Windows in the same configuration. Not too shabby! If this works in an OSX environment as well, I'm all for it as I will probably try and stick with OSX, as long as I can still get the job done with it.

[Dave Helmly] "I should mention that getting the stuff to run on windows TB requires Windows drivers for each device (same as mac) so you can't simply connect a TB device and have it work (with the exception of the Apple TB 27" display) . "

That makes sense, as it really is PCIe just sitting outside of the computer. All/most PCIe cards require drivers.

[Dave Helmly] "I refer to this as THUNDER WARS"

Mind if we steal that?

Jeremy


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Dave Helmly
Re: Pretty amazing Thunderbolt demo.
on Jan 23, 2012 at 7:48:50 pm

Feel free to to use the "THUNDER WARS" term - it came blurting out of my mouth during a Intel meeting (got a few laughs) I was conducting a few months ago discussing how this stuff connects together and why we don't have real notes/whitepapers.

ping me anytime - I think you know how get ahold of me at Adobe-

BTW - I don't get on threads often, as I'm usually swamped with internal questions on workflow in my own Adobe inbox as Premiere gets pushed up the Pro workflow chain.


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