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Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?

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Christian Schumacher
Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 5:53:51 pm

"During the first keynote session at Storage Visions 2012 conference which is taking place in Riviera Hotel and Casino, speaker Ken Brady, VP of Systems Technology and Digital Media at Turner Studios disclosed intricate details of the company’s workflow.

Turner Studios is one of largest broadcasting houses in the world, covering numerous sports, movies, TV shows, news and other media. The company manages daily productions of TNT, TBS, The Cartoon Network, Turner Classic Movies and Turner Sports – which includes producing, post-production and broadcast of sports such as the NBA, NFL, NHL, NCAA sports, NASCAR and numerous others. As such, the company has responsibility to every aspect of digital media handing and in order to cope with the demands, a very interesting setup containing always live and off-line system caught our attention.

However, probably the biggest statement of the whole event was a clear warning to Apple, who is raising a lot of controversy by oversimplifying the Final Cut Pro and turning it into an iMovie Pro, rather than a serious tool for broadcasters. With the next wave of computer upgrades, Mac Pro and iMac machines just might find themselves ending in the “bin of obsolete technology”, as Intel’s CEO likes to put it – and company of this size might start its conversion to the PC platform, for example. As such, the biggest winner might be either Adobe with their Creative Suite or Blackmagic with the DaVinci software."


http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2012/1/9/storage-visions-2012-is-apple...


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 6:06:33 pm

Christian,

It's a bit weird that there's no actual quote in that link.

Franz.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:00:15 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] " It's a bit weird that there's no actual quote in that link."

You're right, but the writer of this article is the publisher of that same website, which is one of the sponsors of the conference.

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/Contact.aspx

http://www.network-storage.org/1205/bsn-becomes-a-media-sponsor-of-storage-...

So, while I agree that there was no quote, I am convinced that "something" was said in that regard.
It is more than a "link bait".


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:04:04 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "It is more than a "link bait"."

Prove it?


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:12:17 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " Prove it?"

Pretend you are a website publisher, and then your site is a media sponsor for a conference. Later, you write about that same conference, are you going to lie about the content of one of the keynotes? Being an attendee and a sponsor? That's unlikely in my book. So, there you have it.


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Steve Connor
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:16:27 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "Pretend you are website publisher, and then your site is a media sponsor for a conference. Later, you write about that same conference, are you going to lie about the content of one of the keynotes? Being an attende and a sponsor? That's unlikely in my book. So, there you have it.
"


It may very well be true, but without actual quotes you are relying on the interpretation of the writer alone.

Poor journalism

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:32:42 pm

[Steve Connor] "It may very well be true, but without actual quotes you are relying on the interpretation of the writer alone. Poor journalism"

So, what if his interpretation is a correct one? Is that "poor journalism" too? Aren't you a little quick to call it?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:38:41 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "Pretend you are a website publisher, and then your site is a media sponsor for a conference. Later, you write about that same conference, are you going to lie about the content of one of the keynotes? Being an attendee and a sponsor? That's unlikely in my book. So, there you have it."

So instead, I invent a question, wrapped in a "statement" without stating anything that can't be corroborated because hey, gotta pay for that sponsorship somehow, right?

They didn't lie, rather, they didn't say anything.

There's no news here, Christian. Nothing. Link bait.

...And if Tuner says, "we now love PCs and are switching to Edius/Vegas/PPro/Avid/Lightworks/Magisto". So what? We all know that FCPX isn't ready for Turner.

Duh.

I would also venture to say that Turner wouldn't come out and call FCPX, iMovie Pro like article states. They'd make an announcement and say something like "Starting next week, we're moving to this NLE". Or whatever.

PS David Lawrence left a comment, maybe he'll get an answer.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:43:24 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " They didn't lie, rather, they didn't say anything."

Incredible how everybody in the web can be assumptive, huh?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:49:57 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "Incredible how everybody in the web can be assumptive, huh?"

Boggles my feeble brain, really.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 8:03:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I would also venture to say that Turner wouldn't come out and call FCPX, iMovie Pro like article states. They'd make an announcement and say something like "Starting next week, we're moving to this NLE". Or whatever."

Duh!
This isn't Ted Turner himself, dude. That's Ken Brady, VP of Systems Technology and Digital Media.
He works at Turner Studios.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 8:13:55 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "Duh!
This isn't Ted Turner himself, dude. That's Ken Brady, VP of Systems Technology and Digital Media.
He works at Turner Studios."


http://trevorvanmeter.com/flyguy/


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David Lawrence
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 8:42:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "PS David Lawrence left a comment, maybe he'll get an answer."

Yep, never hurts to ask. Either we'll get a quote or we won't. It'll be telling either way.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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tony west
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 12:29:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "We all know that FCPX isn't ready for Turner. "


I don't know about that Jeremy, kind of depends on which part your talking about. I don't do their studio stuff but I work their live sports and I can tell you first hand that fcp X was very much a part of the MLB post season broadcast.





All their live sports are freelance guys from around the country (with some staff mixed in). So if you want to bring in X on your laptop and cut the highlights that's on you, which is what happened.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 12:53:08 am

True enough, Tony. Happy to be wrong.

I'm sure Turner has a bunch of NLEs, but I'd imagine their localized machine rooms might not be standardizing around X at the moment. That doesn't mean X might not have its place for certain situations today.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:14:12 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "I am convinced that "something" was said in that regard. It is more than a "link bait"."

Christian,

I disagree. The only thing he attributes to the speaker is "a clear warning to Apple", the rest is all his interpretation and extrapolation - not attributed to the speaker.

What that "clear warning" would have been, who knows?

Franz.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:17:46 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] " What that "clear warning" would have been, who knows?"

Well, I figure it is "something", indeed. As I said it.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 6:07:37 pm

Maybe.

And if so, yawn.

This is no longer the era where the big action is in top down production. Thats a robust, important industry with many people working in it. But it's not the future. The future is what's happening globally with the use of the new tools.

Want an example? Search the string "OH THE PLACES YOU'LL GO BURNING MAN" (a few days old but if someone hasn't linked you to it, they soon will.)

It's the best example I've seen in a long time of modern, agile, outstanding video craftwork. It owes little to the "big production" mentality and everything to the aesthetic that skills and the access to great equipment is really what matters in putting together content people want to search out and watch.

Just try not to finish watching it.

Have NO CLUE what tools were used. But I can tell you that it wasn't Six production trucks and a five person craft services team.

And whether it was cut on Avid, PPro, Legacy, or X is absolutely irrelevant. What is relevant is that it's precisely what the revolution is all about. More chances to work in more ways to tell more stories and engage more viewers than ever before.

This whole think looks to me that it happened in a "shop" of talented people - not in a "station" or in a MGM or Turner style "Studio"

So sorry, but maybe once the test was "broadcast quality" but the new test is "show me something that lights up my brain."

Simple as that.

(Hope they got permission from the Suess estate, but that's another topic for another day.)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 6:12:14 pm

[Bill Davis] "The future is what's happening globally with the use of the new tools."

Bill,

See magisto post, below.

Franz.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 6:29:09 pm

"However, probably the biggest statement of the whole event was a clear warning to Apple, who is raising a lot of controversy by oversimplifying the Final Cut Pro and turning it into an iMovie Pro, rather than a serious tool for broadcasters. "

And the statement was? Link bait.


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James Mortner
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 6:35:19 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "However, probably the biggest statement of the whole event was a clear warning to Apple, who is raising a lot of controversy by oversimplifying the Final Cut Pro and turning it into an iMovie Pro, rather than a serious tool for broadcasters. "

And the statement was? Link bait."


Agreed


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 6:51:56 pm

I gave the Burning Man video a shot Bill and I got bored after 90 seconds. Maybe I'm just not in the right mood this morning...

To a bigger point though, I don't think the future is an either/or situation. We'll have more 'home grown' things like The Annoying Orange but we'll still have big budget films and huge production spectacles like the Super Bowl.

Has the easy availability of musical instruments and sports equipment spelled the demise of professional musicians and pro sports leagues?


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:22:42 pm

Never a quarrel with people who try things and find them not to their taste.

I'll even acknowledge that part of the excitement I had was that my kid came to me, excited by the video and wanted to share it with me. We may all forget about it and dismiss it 10 minutes after seeing it - which is fine. But I'll remember how I found it, that it showed me something unfamiliar and cool, linked my son's generation and mine, and even tossed in a bit of Genius (Mr. Geissel) in the mix.

So for a Tuesday morning, not a bad way to start a day!

Peace.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 6:35:54 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Bill,

See magisto post, below.

Franz."


Okay, I'm catching up. (Just coming out of a couple weeks of heavy shooting/editing/motiongraphics/and on-site event support in SoCal.)

But I'm not seeing your point. Is this a comment on the copyright thing? If so, that's going to be a persistent problem for the next decade. (And why we all probably need continuing SOPA education and to pick a side and take a stand) - but to see the OTPYG-Burning Man video through a lens of copyright issues is like looking at a Henry Moore sculpture and obsessing about a small bird dropping on the foot.

The over-arching change here is that excellence is now possible via different workflows and business arrangements than were possible before. That does NOT diminishes the importance of craft. It actually elevates it. (Somebody had to know enough to practice obsessive lens care during that shoot - cuz I didn't see much evidence of dust -and that alone tells me that craft was being honored stringently even in the face of difficult shooting conditions.)

The point is that at the bottom line - as it's has ever been in our industry - the work itself speaks the loudest.

If you can produce the work. You'll be fine.

And even if you prefer to focus exclusively on traditional tools and workflows you'll STILL be fine - provided you do the kind of work that those tools were developed and refined to do well.

But don't mistake that for the fact that there won't be NEW work processes that engage audiences and provide more competition for audience attention.

I suspect that those who keep an open mind about the NEW on TOP of the old may be in a stronger position that those who simply decide that it's too painful to change what they're used to and stretch.

Or maybe not. Who knows.

I just know that I really liked that piece of work - and am delighted that my son was compelled to run in and show it to me - because unlike some stuff that's captured his attention - I think the quality of the effort is well worth the viewing.

And that SHOULD attract eyeballs. Period.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Paul Harrison
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:22:10 pm

For what it's worth, "The Places..." was shot and edited by Ted Saunders, a young professional photographer and film maker working out of LA (TedShots). He says he shot this on a Canon 7D and his Linked in Profile mentions only Final Cut Pro as an NLE skill.

In my opinion Bill is right that this shows how guerrilla media production has become. The playa is not a good place for lenses, cameras and sound equipment. And a sound truck is not even an option. But he pulled off a very clean product.

I also think that there is a compelling trend towards short-format media. People may each have a half-dozen or more personal small screens available to them (TV's, ipads, phones, laptops) as well as public screens (movie theatres, billboards, ubiquitous hanging lcds). But we only have 24 hours per day. So do you watch one or two 2-hour dramas, or fifty 3-to-7 minute items? Short forms can be integrated into our new multiple screen mobile lives more easily too, even if we can increasingly rent/stream/timeshift long form.

In the end, Turner Studios may be Gulliver in a land of Lilliputians.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 7:46:44 pm

[Paul Harrison] "Turner Studios may be Gulliver in a land of Lilliputians."

Paul,

Wasn't Gulliver made king or something? Before he went home.

Anyway I think you and Bill are muddying the waters a bit - yes, more people have access to media production. That is quite beside the issue of what tools broadcast outfits will use.

You should also catch up on the YouTube story here particularly as it relates to broadcast as a model.

Franz.


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Thomas Frank
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 11:23:27 pm

Why would they go to Adobe? Light Works is the way! ;)



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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 11:27:26 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "That is quite beside the issue of what tools broadcast outfits will use."

But Franz, that IS my point. You are thinking at the "what tools will broadcast outlets use" point in time. Lots and lots and LOTS of people are looking beyond, or maybe next door to, or even totally aside from "what tools broadcast outfits will use.

In fact that's the primary argument I keep making here. Broadcast is one, singular important but not critical outlet for a person with media skills.

I'll also freely acknowledge that in the old model, if you achieved the skills to output "broadcast quality" you could also do ANY other type of video work, since there was a single, reasonably monolithic target as to what "pro" video consisted of, that required significant mastery of a very specialized skill set that was both rare and demanding.

In the world of NOW, this is less and less the case. Great work is still great work, but increasingly, diversity of viewpoint, visuals that are as much computer generated as "camera generated" and access to skills (maybe mountain climbing, eco tourism, or hell, mathematics for all I know!) are going to be as much drivers of content as was being a part of an old style "media production company" in the past.

It's not the only change, it might not be the most important change, but it is a change worthy of consideration.

Simple as that.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 11:51:08 pm

Bill,


I'm sure it is possible that magisto will "drive content" to some extent, somewhere on the internet (and I'm being quite sincere about that). I don't think I've made any claim anywhere against that idea.

But nothing in your post above challenges the fact that at some point Turner's broadcasting facilities are going to need to buy new systems - it may or may not be of interest to see what their decision is.

I don't see these two things as connected.

You can look to writing, photography, and more recently music production as good examples of specialized technologies becoming widely adopted (I think the trendy word is "commoditized", isn't it?).

Anyway, specialists need tools. I'm interested in a certain set of tools that specialists use.


Franz.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 10, 2012 at 11:59:15 pm

I was not here. Until I actually shagging learn Avid - and gentlepeople - this is free and rather good -

http://www.promax.com/s-130-edit-to-the-future.aspx

Until I do that and, say, properly take in FCPX, I am bidden by God to shut up -


Still... one thing, and Bill I am begging you on this.


Stop, please jesus I beg you, stop saying simple as that.

your overall judicial end quote is, I realise, your own mount rushmore.
but you actually do need to stop saying 'simple as that.'

that genuinely has to happen.

I am willing to take this as far as the UN.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 1:14:32 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] " Until I do that and, say, properly take in FCPX, I am bidden by God to shut up -"

The fact is, we do have to cope with FCPX...And learn the Triple-F-Mantra, just keep telling yourself that:
-It's Fun! -it's Fast! -It's Futuristic!


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 4:51:20 pm

Fine.

I'll try since it annoys you so.

In fact, I'll step aside and let the Supreme Court of the US weigh in...

WASHINGTON - In colorful give and take, the Supreme Court debated whether policing curse words and nudity on broadcast television makes sense in the cable era, one justice suggesting the policy is fast becoming moot as broadcast TV heads the way of "vinyl records and 8-track tapes."

His words, not mine.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 5:36:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "the Supreme Court debated whether policing curse words and nudity on broadcast television makes sense in the cable era, one justice suggesting the policy is fast becoming moot as broadcast TV heads the way of "vinyl records and 8-track tapes."

His words, not mine."


Nice semantical hocus-pocus. The supreme court is discussing over-the-air broadcast regulations, while on this forum we consider all cable channels as part of "broadcast", as you well know, so of course this comment by one of the Supremes has no bearing here. But nice try sliding it in.

And I defend your right to use any sign off you wish. Period.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 6:12:43 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Nice semantical hocus-pocus. "

Nope,

Hocus Pocus means magic. Nothing magic about a Justice noting that OTA broadcast — which was the heart of the broadcast industry relatively recently in history — and still has a regulatory requirement to serve "the public good" - must serve for all it's constituents - not just those who can afford (or choose to forgo) Cable.

Also, (for those of you who didn't follow the story) I think the point when the lawyer arguing about the allowance or elimination of "nudity" pointed out the bare-breasted figures in the sculptural frieze above the justices heads - will go down in history as a moment of sublimely wonderful irony.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 6:25:16 pm

[Bill Davis] "Hocus Pocus means magic. Nothing magic about a Justice noting that OTA broadcast — which was the heart of the broadcast industry relatively recently in history "

Fine, have it your way, you weren't using Hocus Pocus, you were being misleading and dissembling.

The "relatively recently" has been at least 20 years, and no one on this forum is using the term "broadcast" to mean OTA. Your misuse of the word broadcast is exactly analogous to the misuse of the term "Pro" by others that bothered you so much. Yes, OTA broadcast is in decline, and NO, broadcast audience's are not shrinking, they are growing every year.

It's too bad your envy of those working in broadcast keeps making you try to come up with faulty arguments promising it's demise, but it ain't so, just check your TV listings.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Thomas Frank
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 7:01:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "the Supreme Court debated whether policing curse words and nudity on broadcast television makes sense in the cable era"

Since we are going of topic...

yeah you know what no it does not make sense why would it when they don't even mention violence in that same sentence which violence would make sense to police!

Yeah!

By the way why Tuner Studios same something like that about the Mac Pro if Apple has mentioned the generation is in works???
Bad media?



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walter biscardi
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 12:06:13 am

[Bill Davis] "This whole think looks to me that it happened in a "shop" of talented people - not in a "station" or in a MGM or Turner style "Studio" "

Um, as someone who visits Turner Studios on a regular basis, I can tell you that those studios are FULL of very talented and very creative people. They work in an absolutely gorgeous and fun facility that happens to be a large studio complex.

So you can go ahead and paint a "studio" with a broad brush as something that's bad and un-creative. But in the case of Turner Studios, they are not only creative, they're a hell of a lot of fun to hang out with.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 5:14:57 pm

Uh, Walter...

Where exactly did I ever imply that people in broadcast or studios weren't talented and creative?

Hell, as a writer and voice talent early in my career, I spent countless hours in my cities network affiliate broadcast stations and larger independent production houses and found the people there to be first class creatives and operators.
Tthat's the constant.

That a guy like me with a quarter century in the trenches can now pack two suitcases full of gear - go anyplace on the planet and do work every bit as good as the NBC affiliate where I first got to watch a guy do ADO effects in the 80s IS the change.

And the video I linked, supports that. The shots are Indistinguishable from top quality network production to the eyes of 99.9% of viewers.

Yes Turner Atlanta is capable of wonderful work.

But so is that guy Ted who schlepped his gear to Burning Man.

There was one game before, necessarily "gate keepered" by folks with Turner sized budgets.

Now there isn't.

Period.

(can't say "simple as that" for fear of further annoying AG!)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 5:23:35 pm

Bill,

I still think that (amongst other things) you're confusing the production problem with the distribution problem.

It isn't clear to me (nor, from what I've read, anyone else) how the distribution issue is going to evolve.

My references to writing, photography, and music are all good examples to look to in this respect.

Franz.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 5:40:45 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "It isn't clear to me (nor, from what I've read, anyone else) how the distribution issue is going to evolve."

There are a lot of pretty savvy business people scratching their heads over that one, and they've been scratching for a long time. I'd be more than happy to invest my life savings with anyone who can figure it out.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 5:54:36 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "It isn't clear to me (nor, from what I've read, anyone else) how the distribution issue is going to evolve.

My references to writing, photography, and music are all good examples to look to in this respect.
"


Franz,

I don't think that's clear to anyone yet, but there are clear signs of direction.

Seek out the Deloitte study on "The Power of Pull" - there's a lot off-target to wade through, but at the core, the translation from the "it's in the theaters or on TV tonight, so those are my choices" (roughly PUSH) to the modern "what do I choose to watch right now" (PULL) content distribution is going to disrupt everything.

It just makes sense.

IMO, that's the future to equip for in both gear and skillets.

That is essentially precisely what I've done by learning X - which I see as a tool to better enable PULL content in the long run. (all those keywords after all, floating around the interface, and "version publishing" via the Program Library.

It's possible that the largest mistake people have made about X is shoehorning it exclusively as "editing software."

Content creation is a huge part of it and editing at the core of that (along with image creation via Motion5) but the extent it help enable distribution in the long run might be the truly transformative baked in capability.

We'lll see.

YMMV.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 6:16:45 pm

[Bill Davis] "but at the core, the translation from the "it's in the theaters or on TV tonight, so those are my choices" (roughly PUSH) to the modern "what do I choose to watch right now" (PULL) content distribution is going to disrupt everything."

The problem with that theory is that the only things people want to PULL are programs that have been marketed, advertised and culturally "authenticated" by the PUSH media. That's the true meaning of "broadcast" - produced for and marketed too the largest swath of possible viewers using the information pathways long established for them - movie reviews, TV promotion, etc, etc.

The simple appearance of a movie title on a theater marquee delivers more punch than all the internet advertising and viral blogging you can invent. And unlike music, even an indie film can't support itself with the downloads of even 10,000 loyal supporters, let alone next year's Avatar or HBO mini-series.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 6:30:07 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The problem with that theory is that the only things people want to PULL are programs that have been marketed, advertised and culturally "authenticated" by the PUSH media. "

We simply could not disagree more about this.

This part of the conversation was started by my noting that my kid came in to my room all excited by that Burning Man video. By the time I found out about it, he's probably text-messaged a link it to a dozen of his friends - and had posted a link to it on his Facebook page.

Have you been sleeping? Havn't you read how Louis CK just raked in six figures in about 24 hours by using social media to distribute his self-produced (and self edited in FCP-Legacy) content?

If you can't see how radically distribution is changing you risk missing the largest single shift in media consumption of the past hundred years.

NO that does not mean the traditional ways are irrelevant or worth-less or shouldn't be honored and maintained.

It simply means there's a new game in town and that not just people but significant businesses are having to take notice.

I just got back from a weekend in SoCal - in yet another Marriott ballroom working with corporate types.

Among the biggest topics? Management of social media.

And, BTW, one again, (it's kinda becoming a corporate show cliche) the "big reveal" at the end of the show to thank the troops for generating great results in difficult economic times was a shiny new iPad 2 in everyone's gift bag.

And those suckers can watch the Burning Man video on YouTube EASIER than they can sign-up for a service that gives them access to hollywood content.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 6:50:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "We simply could not disagree more about this."

Correct.

[Bill Davis] "This part of the conversation was started by my noting that my kid came in to my room all excited by that Burning Man video. By the time I found out about it, he's probably text-messaged a link it to a dozen of his friends - and had posted a link to it on his Facebook page."

And I sent it to my girl friend, and she loved it and I'm sure she passed it on. OK, so now show me how to monitize that. I work with some very smart producers and content creators and they've been trying to figure out how to avoid the necessity for going thru the broadcast pipeline for years and not only can they not figure it out, nobody has. Yet.

[Bill Davis] "Have you been sleeping?"

Whenever possible.

[Bill Davis] "Havn't you read how Louis CK just raked in six figures in about 24 hours by using social media to distribute his self-produced (and self edited in FCP-Legacy) content?"

Yes, I know about Louis CK, who has been a comedy central staple for years with multiple broadcast shows to his name. You have just proved my point about how necessary "push" media is to the "pull" media market.

In order to make your argument you have to name one, just one, successful media project originated and marketed solely on the internet without reference to an already established broadcast name.

In fact the reverse has happened a number of times - an internet sensation (Justin Beiber) uses his internet reputation to attract broadcast producers who help make him a successful broadcast entertainer. As always the money comes from broadcast recognition, without that recognition there is no money. Now once you have that recognition you can use the internet as one of your product streams, no problem. But you must have broadcast recognition first, every time.

[Bill Davis] "the "big reveal" at the end of the show to thank the troops for generating great results in difficult economic times was a shiny new iPad 2 in everyone's gift bag. And those suckers can watch the Burning Man video on YouTube EASIER than they can sign-up for a service that gives them access to hollywood content."

I'll bet you dollars to donuts they were watching either network sports or broadcast movies and programming long before, if ever, they watched the "burning man" video.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 13, 2012 at 7:57:26 pm

Herb,


While I think your argument is largely correct, there are some exceptional examples:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/12/amanda-hocking-self-publishing

I agree, though, most self-publishing successes we hear about are those who have benefited from large distributors.

Maybe we'll see more stories like the one above. It does seem more like fluke than design, though.

One thing that starts to happen with more people publishing is that the signal-to-noise ratio skyrockets. I do wonder if taste-makers and large distributors will be strengthened or weakened by that.

Addendum:

I do think all of this is quite apart from the question of production. There's an ironic bit in the article above:

Just the editing process alone has been a source of deep frustration, because although she has employed own freelance editors and invited her readers to alert her to spelling and grammatical errors, she thinks her ebooks are riddled with mistakes. "It drove me nuts, because I tried really hard to get things right and I just couldn't. It's exhausting, and hard to do. And it starts to wear on you emotionally. I know that sounds weird and whiny, but it's true."

In the end, Hocking became so burned out by the stress of solo publishing that she has turned for help to the same traditional book world that previously rejected her and which she was seen as attacking.



Franz.


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tony west
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 2:56:11 pm

Bill, there is no doubt these people know what they are doing.

You don't know what they cut it on but it doesn't matter.

You don't know what camera they used and it doesn't matter.

They had a Stedi-cam for some shots. What brand? Doesn't matter.

Whatever tools they used they have real skills and it was incredible.

I still say you could look at this as a two camps things.

If you work independent you can cut on whatever you want as long as you do good work.
If you work in somebodies house you need to get with their stuff.
I think most people on here do a little of both from time to time.

When I see something like that I wonder? How do you get paid. You put all that work into that with all those people. You don't get paid. But someone might offer you a job when they see it.

I like working on big events but I also like independence if someday they tap me on the shoulder and say we want to only pay you this.

I like how when they told George Lucus we won't make your "black film" Red Tails he said scr-- you.

I'll make it myself.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 12, 2012 at 3:30:18 am

[Bill Davis] "This is no longer the era where the big action is in top down production... Want an example? Search the string "OH THE PLACES YOU'LL GO BURNING MAN" (a few days old but if someone hasn't linked you to it, they soon will.) It's the best example I've seen in a long time of modern, agile, outstanding video craftwork. It owes little to the "big production" mentality and everything to the aesthetic that skills and the access to great equipment is really what matters in putting together content people want to search out and watch."

I'd have to disagree. It owes everything to Dr. Seuss.

What would this video be without that amazing writing?

Oh, The Places You'll Go was published by Random House -- the "the largest general-interest trade book publisher in the world" [link]. This video was born from big production, and it is achieving success (by which I mean generating buzz moreso than money, for whatever that is worth) on the back of publishing.

Just like Louis CK, this is an example of exploiting success in big broadcast or mass distribution in non-broadcast markets.



[Bill Davis] "So sorry, but maybe once the test was "broadcast quality" but the new test is "show me something that lights up my brain.""

In addition to the great writing borrowed from a big-production publisher, the OTPYG Burning Man video is beautifully shot, cut, and finished. Restaurant-quality lemonade. You might even say broadcast quality.

Ideally something would light up your brain and feature high production value.



[Bill Davis] "Seek out the Deloitte study on "The Power of Pull" - there's a lot off-target to wade through, but at the core, the translation from the "it's in the theaters or on TV tonight, so those are my choices" (roughly PUSH) to the modern "what do I choose to watch right now" (PULL) content distribution is going to disrupt everything. It just makes sense. IMO, that's the future to equip for in both gear and skillets."

We've been dancing around this question here for a couple months, so I'll pose it directly as I can.

How is creating content for pull consumption different than creating content for push consumption? Aren't they just two sides of the same coin?

I think that content -- for the entire history of communication -- has been a blend of push and pull. Someone has to create content and then push it into a marketplace for consumption; some else has to choose to consume it and pull it from the marketplace.

Push without pull isn't seen and doesn't sell, and pull without push can't be seen and doesn't exist.

What specifically is it that you're arguing for?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 12, 2012 at 10:05:34 am

What am I arguing for?

Simple.

To rattle some of the more hidebound people here into a bit of self examination.

Some are so sure that their particular brand of "wisdom" is the only kind with any value. But theirs, IMO, is too often the brand that confuses evolution for innovation. Their thinking worked for them yesterday, so they expect it to keep working. But I suspect the opposite is true.

I suspect that a guy just like Herb was shaking their grizzled noggin at Jeff Bezos when he told the Angels that he saw a long tail play that required long delays in "monetizing" pushing books on-line. Amazon was willing to lose millions for years to be ready with the systems scaled and ready to go when e-commerce finally took off.

Now we can see that Amazon was never about books at all. Books were nothing but a test case for a new business model.

On a micro level, I'm willing to bet that as content creation continues to diffuse away from the majors and more and more to the desktop, lots and lots of people will find satisfaction at a level a tier or three below Hollywood hits.

Why?

Because of reverse scale.

Without the need to support monster facilities and cadres of human resources, someone can do financially well with a few thousand loyal content customers and an efficient micro-payment model.

That was never really possible before because costs scaled so closely along with distribution.

Now apple has demonstrated that with a largely pull-based ecosystem built more on search than advertising - more revenue falls to the bottom line than before. And with lower costs of creation comes opportunity for increasing margins.

If that is so, I want to understand the content tools designed to enable easier work in the new model.

And that's precisely what I think FCP-X is.

A first step toward better.

I'm cutting my twelfth paid FCP-X piece and wrapping up my fifth Motion 5 commission - and I'm here to tell you this is every bit as exciting as FCP 1.0 was for me back in 2000.

That was a step toward better, too.

FWIW

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Steve Connor
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 12, 2012 at 11:54:18 am

[Bill Davis] "Now apple has demonstrated that with a largely pull-based ecosystem built more on search than advertising - more revenue falls to the bottom line than before. And with lower costs of creation comes opportunity for increasing margins.

If that is so, I want to understand the content tools designed to enable easier work in the new model.

And that's precisely what I think FCP-X is.

A first step toward better.
"


The problem at the moment is that if you produce content in a niche market like we do, you simply can't get your shows on iTunes. It's relatively easy to get Apps on the App Store, easy to publish books on their bookstore, it's even not too difficult to get music on the iTunes store.

Apple need to change this model if they want a piece of the pie, before Google get too much of a lead, I'd love to edit a show in FCPX and then click "publish to iTunes"

Steve Connor
"FCPX Agitator"
Adrenalin Television


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 12, 2012 at 2:51:24 pm

[Bill Davis] "I suspect that a guy just like Herb was shaking their grizzled noggin at Jeff Bezos when he told the Angels that he saw a long tail play that required long delays in "monetizing" pushing books on-line. Amazon was willing to lose millions for years to be ready with the systems scaled and ready to go when e-commerce finally took off. "

He might be "just like me" but he wasn't me. I "got" Amazon right from the beginning, started using it in '97, wrote my first review there in '98. Brilliant concept, love it, use it for everything.

Using the net to create a virtual community who then create content for the domain, at no cost, and then monetizing either the content or the user base is something I understand. However, trying to monetize self made non-branded media content is something I don't get.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 12, 2012 at 5:24:51 pm

[Bill Davis] "Some are so sure that their particular brand of "wisdom" is the only kind with any value. But theirs, IMO, is too often the brand that confuses evolution for innovation."

Sounds catchy, but I don't have a clue what that means. And, the more I think about it the more meaningless it seems.


[Bill Davis] "I suspect that a guy just like Herb was "


Oh, yeah Bill. When Herb calls you on faulty reasoning, you slide into "a guy just like Herb..." Classy!

[Bill Davis] "Now we can see that Amazon was never about books at all. Books were nothing but a test case for a new business model.
"


Really? Test case? Never about books at all? Wow! Lets just totally rewrite history to make a point, eh?


[Bill Davis] "Without the need to support monster facilities and cadres of human resources, someone can do financially well with a few thousand loyal content customers and an efficient micro-payment model.
"


Sure. Its happening now. Nothing new about that.


[Bill Davis] "If that is so, I want to understand the content tools designed to enable easier work in the new model.

And that's precisely what I think FCP-X is.

A first step toward better.
"


Late to the party, Bill. That "first step" happened more than a decade ago, and FCP X--however good or bad it might be--is a footnote in the whole story.


[Bill Davis] "I'm cutting my twelfth paid FCP-X piece and wrapping up my fifth Motion 5 commission - and I'm here to tell you this is every bit as exciting as FCP 1.0 was for me back in 2000.
"



Good deal. Glad you are putting it to use. Just don't confuse useful with revolutionary.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 12, 2012 at 6:13:11 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Oh, yeah Bill. When Herb calls you on faulty reasoning, you slide into "a guy just like Herb..." Classy!"

Thanks for the support Chris but it's OK, I feel it an honor to be Bill's iconic Boogey Man.

Here, let's try it out:

Boogedy boogedy boogedy!

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 12, 2012 at 5:10:06 pm

[Walter Soyka] "What specifically is it that you're arguing for?"

The best I can glean, is that Bill, speaking as a proxy for FCP X, is shouting at Turner, "You can't fire me! I quit!"


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 5:50:04 am

How can they not...

A term I have not heard since June is "we're going to cut this show on Final Cut"

You have 3 choices, go down with the titanic, go down with the Hindenburg or paddle over to something better and no, it's not FCx, the thing is a stone, with chrome shark teeth

I'll fill in for Aindreas, and its been a while so I need to get my digs in; I'm not sure who is actually enjoying this junk, but so far the only people with anything positive to say can be found here...or at Apple.

Just added 6 new edit suites, on Macs, go Pro!...all with shiny new avids...uhoh!

We be such luddites ignoring this "revolution"...


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 9:05:46 pm

Democratization of gear and distribution gets rid of some barriers but raises new ones at the same time. It allows for a broadening of the content spectrum but I don't think it's going replace or dramatically displace content as we know it today.

For example, access to sports equipment (be it a soccer, cricket, or basketball) is nearly universal but professional sports still exist. The fact that I can join a company softball team doesn't mean that people would find equal enjoyment, equal value, in watching me play vs going to a Dodger's game and the Arena Football League hasn't displaced the NFL (if anything it's acted as a bit of a feeder system). I think the low and middle ground of content will expand but the top will still be the top.

People want the content. People want Game of Thrones and American Idol and The Dark Knight Rises. What people also want more of is control of how and when they view their content. They want to be able to stream more and not have to have a big, expensive cable package. If they buy a Blu-ray they want an easy way to make that content accessible across all their devices (living room TV, computer & mobile device).

As a content creator I'm not really concerned, but if I was a 'traditional' TV distributor I'd remind myself that I'm in the content distribution business, not the only deliver content over-the-air business.

With all that being said. I just read that people watch an average of 5hrs of TV a day (this number is going up) but only watch an average of 15 minutes of YouTube a day. Lots of people want IP-centric delivery to work but the devil is in the details.

All in all, an exciting time to be in this field, IMO!


-Andrew

2.9 GHz 8-core (4,1), FCP 7.0.3, 10.6.6
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (7.9.5)



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Chris Harlan
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 11, 2012 at 9:37:05 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Democratization of gear and distribution gets rid of some barriers but... ...want IP-centric delivery to work but the devil is in the details.

All in all, an exciting time to be in this field, IMO!"


Excellent assessment. At least, that's what my feelings are. I find it an invigorating time.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 13, 2012 at 8:29:12 am

With all that being said. I just read that people watch an average of 5hrs of TV a day (this number is going up) but only watch an average of 15 minutes of YouTube a day. Lots of people want IP-centric delivery to work but the devil is in the details.


Quote above sounds impressive if you don't know that this is significantly DOWN from the Arbitron levels in the 199os when household viewing was well over 8 hours a day.

TV has faced a steadily eroding viewership for years now.

You simply can't compare a single internet portal with all of TV, Time spent on "entertainment" use of computers verses TV would be more apples to apples.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Is Apple About to Lose Turner Studios?
on Jan 13, 2012 at 3:37:58 pm

[Bill Davis] "You simply can't compare a single internet portal with all of TV, Time spent on "entertainment" use of computers verses TV would be more apples to apples."

As it is much disregarded by all these media discussions here also, in how big the gaming industry has grown in the past few years. It should be noted that, even Apple's iDevices are riding that gravy train, as well.


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