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Time to change the forum name yet?

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Steve Connor
Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 21, 2011 at 10:22:01 pm

So much good workflow discussions and conversations about the very nature and future of editing going on here, is it perhaps time to think about the proposed name change to the forum. It's great that Dennis from Adobe takes part here, but perhaps other companies may feel they can't take part as it's primarily named as an FCPX forum.

It would be great to broaden the discussions out further.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Shane Ross
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 21, 2011 at 11:36:16 pm

But it all starts when someone says, "So I used FCX to finish this iMovie project..."

:)

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Craig Seeman
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 3:13:31 am

For me it started when I was using a CMX6000 and I saw Avid as the future and all my boss could say, "those pictures look like cr*p, you can't do a professional offline with it."



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Mark Dobson
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 6:05:00 am

I wouldn't change the name right now. It's a great forum, why dissipate its focus.

Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate has still got wheels and will rejuvenate itself with the release of the first major update to FCPX due imminently.

This is the moment that many people who have switched from FCP7 will reconsider their options and many people who have embraced FCPX will see whether enough fundamental changes have taken place to keep them on board.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 6:35:49 am

Yet I think madding crowds will steer the conversation into the lack of trust for Apple. They decry that "tracklessness" has not been "fixed." They will be repelled by magnetism. Epitaphs will be thrown at each facility that moves to it. Evan Schechtman will be a pariah. When the bipeds talk of prehensile thumbs they will postulate that four legs are better than two, that the math shows it to be incontrovertible truth.

If FCPX shows itself to be popular, they will equate populism as proof of pedestrian intent.



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Bill Davis
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 8:06:42 am

[Craig Seeman] "If FCPX shows itself to be popular, they will equate populism as proof of pedestrian intent.
"


Craig, dude. You forgot to mention the locust plagues and the inevitable hastening of the apocalypse that is sure to any significant X adoption! Didn't you get this weeks talking points?

; )

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 5:25:08 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Yet I think madding crowds will steer the conversation into the lack of trust for Apple."

As opposed to others who bow and pray while facing west to await the Steve Jobs resurrection on the third day of the third month, when he will arise in a rainbow over Cupertino to usher in the modern world with a MacMiniProIpad that shoots thunderbolts out our collective ass, attaching us to the internet through a gaseous ether that constantly renews a never ending RSS stream of eternally unfinished media bulls**t.

Or something like that.

I guess I'm just channeling Aindreas at this point.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 6:34:39 pm

[Herb Sevush] "...when he will arise in a rainbow over Cupertino to usher in the modern world with a MacMiniProIpad that shoots thunderbolts... "

Infidel! He will arise in a rainbow over Cupertino to usher in the modern world AS a MacMiniProIpad that shoots thunderbolts.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 7:44:06 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Infidel! He will arise in a rainbow over Cupertino to usher in the modern world AS a MacMiniProIpad that shoots thunderbolts."

Oh, forgive me, father of all hanging fruits. I am not worthy, I am not worthy ...

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Paul Dickin
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 7:58:55 pm

Hi
"Real artists shi*" ;-)



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David Lawrence
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 6:22:03 pm

[Mark Dobson] "I wouldn't change the name right now. It's a great forum, why dissipate its focus.

Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate has still got wheels and will rejuvenate itself with the release of the first major update to FCPX due imminently.

This is the moment that many people who have switched from FCP7 will reconsider their options and many people who have embraced FCPX will see whether enough fundamental changes have taken place to keep them on board."


Yep, I agree for all those reasons. My understanding is that this forum generates a high amount of traffic probably due in large part to the name and focus on FCPX. I don't see any benefits to changing the name now.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 6:26:29 pm

[David Lawrence] "[Mark Dobson] "I wouldn't change the name right now. It's a great forum, why dissipate its focus.

Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate has still got wheels and will rejuvenate itself with the release of the first major update to FCPX due imminently.

This is the moment that many people who have switched from FCP7 will reconsider their options and many people who have embraced FCPX will see whether enough fundamental changes have taken place to keep them on board."

Yep, I agree for all those reasons. My understanding is that this forum generates a high amount of traffic probably due in large part to the name and focus on FCPX. I don't see any benefits to changing the name now."


Agreed. With the coming updates, it is probably still the perfect name.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 23, 2011 at 5:46:24 pm

[David Lawrence] "My understanding is that this forum generates a high amount of traffic probably due in large part to the name and focus on FCPX. I don't see any benefits to changing the name now."

I agree. After all, the letter X is widely-regarded as a symbol for "beware".

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Walter Soyka
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 3:40:03 pm

[Craig Seeman] "For me it started when I was using a CMX6000 and I saw Avid as the future and all my boss could say, "those pictures look like cr*p, you can't do a professional offline with it.""

I think you were both right. Avid was the future, those pictures did look like crap, and because of that limitation, you couldn't do a professional offline with it.

There was a funny story in the Editor's Lounge about an early Avid offline where they chose some footage of an actor who was supposed to be dead in the scene; because the resolution was so poor, they couldn't see the actor breathing in the shot until the online. Oops.

Do you remember actually using FCP v1? Was it the future? Yes. Were the Avid editors of the time right to call it unprofessional? Yes. Two different questions!

So much of the back and forth on this forum is due to us focusing separately on the present versus the future, or about pragmatism versus possibility.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 3:52:34 pm

[Walter Soyka] "So much of the back and forth on this forum is due to us focusing separately on the present versus the future, or about pragmatism versus possibility."

Add to that the question of Apple's actual interest and willingness to develop and further open up the power of the initial offering, and I think you've got it.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 4:17:49 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think you were both right. Avid was the future, those pictures did look like crap, and because of that limitation, you couldn't do a professional offline with it."

[Walter Soyka] "Do you remember actually using FCP v1? Was it the future? Yes. Were the Avid editors of the time right to call it unprofessional? Yes. Two different questions!"

[Walter Soyka] "So much of the back and forth on this forum is due to us focusing separately on the present versus the future, or about pragmatism versus possibility."

Yes. I believe we'll see the same growth with FCPX. There's no way to prove that will happen. Certainly many products fail in the market place. EMC2 was competitive in the early NLE days for example. Apple tends to be good at reconnoiter when products go wrong so I think we'll end up with an extremely powerful and cost effective NLE within a year or so.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 6:25:08 pm

[Craig Seeman] " Apple tends to be good at reconnoiter when products go wrong so I think we'll end up with an extremely powerful and cost effective NLE within a year or so."

That would be great. I guess most of that depends on how much of Apple still is what it once was.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 8:42:38 pm

[Chris Harlan] "That would be great. I guess most of that depends on how much of Apple still is what it once was."

I do think Apple is evolving into a different company. There's both good and bad in that. That there was no transition period in the FCS EOL is new (and not good). That they are looking for broad appeal is actually good and their approach may be better than at the turn of the century. It's a mixed bag for professionals especially on the upper end of the market.

Understanding how to survive in the "products for post" market is key to the evolution and I certainly think (and see) broadcast and feature film Pros resenting that.

This is not specific to Apple although I see companies taking different approaches to that.
Blackmagic buying DaVinci and Teranex and the low cost is one example. The ATEM switcher line also fits that.

I think Apple's trying to transfer their "consumer" success across the rest of their product line and, hence, why I say they're moving to a "commodity" company which is almost the opposite of what they were a decade ago.

Avid on the other hand, shows how the old model targeting broadcast and feature film niche doesn't work. Of course it can with high prices but they mixed their business model and I think that has critically injured them. IMHO they're either going to undergo a major painful (to some pros) transition or they may be purchased (or parts sold).

Adobe is a very diverse software company and they're working hard at getting all the pieces to interlock. They're not afraid to drop the parts that don't work, which one might say is the opposite of Avid.

Basically if I were look at the future my "byte" for each company is:

Adobe strong and probably least painful for Pros and the future.

Avid is going to involve a lot of pain and I think it's inevitable and unavoidable.

Apple is going to involve pain but they have the resources to overcome and use their risk for innovation. This is where I see the FCPX ecosystem heading. They've actually become more "internal" in developing that system since FCS EOL represents (to me) a move to dump all external code based products, FCP, Color, DVDStudioPro, Shake, etc. I think Apple going to develop an ecosystem that's going to push hardware as that's what their model seems to be.

Blackmagic would seem to be the opposite of Apple in that they are buying (as Apple used to) and dropping prices. They're also opposite Avid in that rather than targeting hardware to the upper niche, ATEM, their cards, Teranex now, are low on the lower end of the price spectrum. Their software, DaVinci for example, will sell more hardware as well.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 9:00:04 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Blackmagic would seem to be the opposite of Apple in that they are buying (as Apple used to) and dropping prices. They're also opposite Avid in that rather than targeting hardware to the upper niche, ATEM, their cards, Teranex now, are low on the lower end of the price spectrum. Their software, DaVinci for example, will sell more hardware as well."

I don't think in dollars anymore. I budget in FCPX licenses.

DaVinci Resolve Lite is free, but the fancy-pants DeckLink is 3.33 FCPXs.

If you take advantage of the crossgrade offer, Avid Media Composer costs 5 FCPXs, but if you miss out, it's regularly 8.33 FCPXs. Avid's also got Symphony at 20 FCPXs and DS at 33.33 FCPXs, but Avid doesn't really seem all that into those products.

Adobe's Premiere Pro will run you 2.67 FCPXs, but the Creative Suite Production Premium is an absolute steal at 5.67 FCPXs.

If none of that is "pro" enough for you, Autodesk will sell you Smoke on your Mac for 50 FCPXs. Don't forget that support contract -- that's another 6.67 FCPXs annually.

A Teranex used to cost 300 FCPXs, but now it's in the bargain bin at only 66.67 FCPXs.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 9:05:27 pm

rotfl


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Craig Seeman
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 9:55:55 pm

FCPX is the Euro of the post market?
"I see FCPX is trending up agains MCs this week."
Does this mean we'll see things like an FCPX futures market as well?



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Walter Soyka
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 10:03:29 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Does this mean we'll see things like an FCPX futures market as well?"

Depends -- how many puts are you, Jeremy, Bill, and Evan Schectman prepared to write? I think you'd find a lot of buyers if you're comfortable with the risk...

Cheers,

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 23, 2011 at 2:24:44 am

[Walter Soyka] "Depends -- how many puts are you, Jeremy, Bill, and Evan Schectman prepared to write? I think you'd find a lot of buyers if you're comfortable with the risk..."

As a personal rather than brokered futures play I might well be interested.

Anyone who wants to can transfer me their software licenses at retail today along with a contract that specifies that if they EVER decide to use any future version of FCP-X — they contractually agree to do so only via buying back the license from me - at a multiple of the market price PLUS interest. Something maybe like what they still peddle to our teens. You know those rates roughly equal to their age, along with so many "annual fees, late fees, transaction fees, low balance fees, and "you didn't take the free 6 hour on-line electronic banking 'security training' so we're imposing a $5 monthly "risk" fee (a non-profit who's board I chair got hit with THAT piece of brilliance last year!) - so it ends up being maybe a 32% annualized "sucker" rate?

Maybe I'll get lucky and the "all pro all the time perfect X" of everyones dreams won't arrive for a couple of years - if so, this play could be my "cruise into the endless sunset" retirement plan!

(grin)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 9:03:50 pm

Hey, maybe you are right. My gut sez you ain't. But it is all tea leaves. Whatever may happen to Avid, Media Composer and FCP 7 are the most useful NLE's to know how to use in the entertainment industry in Los Angeles for 2012. Premiere is a hopeful with very few seats. And FCP X lives in the neighborhood of zero seats, and is not currently functional for many entertainment tasks. My best guess is that it will be the same for 2013. I plan on working both of those years. In 2014 or 2015, I might have to pick up some new skills. I'd love it if FCP X would dazzle me. I'd jump right in. But right now, it is not just that the water is too cold; it ain't even there.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 10:01:53 pm

I don't see a scenario where Avid survives in its current form. I could see either the entire company or MC product line being bought though. One scenario would be Blackmagic buys it as they did with DaVinci. Just tea leaves of course.

FCPX will take time but the first inroads will happen sooner. It certainly would take longer to have any chance of dominating though. I think by 2013 it'll be sneaking back into the "pro" (broadcast) market. It'll start creeping into some facilities throughout next year IMHO. We'll see how OutPost Digital fares.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 10:17:24 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I don't see a scenario where Avid survives in its current form. I could see either the entire company or MC product line being bought though."

If Avid went butt-up tomorrow, Media Composer would continue to dominate the LA post world for the next half decade,

[Craig Seeman] "It'll start creeping into some facilities throughout next year IMHO. We'll see how OutPost Digital fares."

THAT is extremely optimistic. If you actually want to gage growth you need to follow an example of a more disinterested company, not one that profits from lessons and evangelizes for the product. When someone neutral, like Trailer Park or Broadway video starts putting in seats, I'll pay serious attention.


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Steve Connor
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 6:31:44 am

[Shane Ross] "But it all starts when someone says, "So I used FCX to finish this iMovie project...""

Hilarious, this is what I mean, wouldn't we like more people coming here to read witty and incisive posts like this?

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX and occasional iMovie user"


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Craig Seeman
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 7:04:23 am

. . . and such insight into the direction of the industry!
Media Composer's popularity has proven such a financial success for Avid.
Premiere has been on the cusp of wide spread acceptance for so long that the EOL of FCS was only the smallest incidental factor. <... the grin continues>

This is the current state of the industry. Apple and FCP are only one part of a big post picture in a "tightening" economy that it would seem to be a smaller number of chairs remain in each round for those in and/or servicing the upper echelon of the post industry.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 8:51:10 am

Maybe a change is in order... I know I was firmly in the NOT camp and not happy with Apple at all. But... since the .01 and .02 updates and the ability to add transitions to any clip (what a concept) I'm slowly changing sides and thinking maybe Apple has something here...this is by far the fastest NLE out there and I find it harder and harder to go back to an "old school" NLE like FCP7, MC6 or CS5.5...

Ny guess is that long term Apple wins again.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Dennis Radeke
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 2:42:56 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Premiere has been on the cusp of wide spread acceptance for so long that the EOL of FCS was only the smallest incidental factor. <... the grin continues>"

I know you're teasing Craig, but the truth of this is pretty evident to me!


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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 8:29:40 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Apple and FCP are only one part of a big post picture in a "tightening" economy that it would seem to be a smaller number of chairs remain in each round for those in and/or servicing the upper echelon of the post industry."

Very true. Which is why the questions here--whether FCP X represents A) a helium ballon or B) a lead weight for those wishing to participate in that industry--are so interesting.

BTW--it is my observation that there are FAR more post jobs than there were two decades ago. There is also MUCH more programing than there was two decades ago.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 9:53:25 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Very true. Which is why the questions here--whether FCP X represents A) a helium ballon or B) a lead weight for those wishing to participate in that industry--are so interesting."

I think Apple's approach is to target the broad middle, with wide middle use attract developers and rise back up. Sort of like they did with FCP legacy . . . but they are certainly starting over again and not only was the marketing a mess, getting things to third party developers is also a bit of a mess. In fact it's the latter that would have me most concerned. FCPX, if anything, is even more dependent on third party developers than FCP legacy was and apparently all sorts of things around this have been "slow."

[Chris Harlan] "BTW--it is my observation that there are FAR more post jobs than there were two decades ago. There is also MUCH more programing than there was two decades ago."

I agree. I think the broad middle, corporate, both external and internal video production, is actually on the rise. We are a much more video centric/dependent society now. I think Apple's banking on that as a way to bring more Mac hardware into those environments. Of course they must succeed there if FCPX is to have viable expansion into other market.

None of this means they will succeed in any of this but it seems to be their "business plan" with FCPX.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 10:06:44 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think Apple's approach is to target the broad middle, with wide middle use attract developers and rise back up. "

That would be great. I'm not as optimistic about Apple's approach, but I'd like you to be right, So, I hope you are,


[Craig Seeman] "[Chris Harlan] "BTW--it is my observation that there are FAR more post jobs than there were two decades ago. There is also MUCH more programing than there was two decades ago."

I agree. I think the broad middle, corporate, both external and internal video production, is actually on the rise. We are a much more video centric/dependent society now. "


This goes for the entertainment industry, too. When I was going to film school, I never dreamed there would be as many jobs. Of course, I never dreamed there would be as many people trying to take them, either,


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Chris Harlan
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 10:09:18 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think Apple's approach is to target the broad middle, with wide middle use attract developers and rise back up. "

That would be great. I'm not as optimistic about Apple's approach, but I'd like you to be right, So, I hope you are,


[Craig Seeman] "[Chris Harlan] "BTW--it is my observation that there are FAR more post jobs than there were two decades ago. There is also MUCH more programing than there was two decades ago."

I agree. I think the broad middle, corporate, both external and internal video production, is actually on the rise. We are a much more video centric/dependent society now. "


This goes for the high end, too. When I was going to film school,


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Joseph Owens
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 23, 2011 at 8:25:07 pm

Propose name change to "SSDD". Look it up.

Further to corporate psychology, I'm shocked (shocked!) that so little is known about "The Corporation":
http://www.thecorporation.com/index.cfm?page_id=2

Modern incorporated business entities and their invariable behaviour passes all the tests with flying colours to qualify as certifiably psychotic sociopaths. And this is the de facto governance we have as a civilization, since elected officials are all beholden to the financial sector -- with the possible exception of energy producers - the worst violators.

I'm starting to pine for the days of Caligula, who was simply criminally insane.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 12:52:23 pm

Didn't that just happen?

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/22901


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Steve Connor
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 1:27:39 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "Didn't that just happen?

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/22901
"


I think that may have been the humour in Shanes post

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 3:57:31 pm

You know, I couldn't decide. You're probably right, but that might be his first humorous post on the topic of FCP X. (at least that I can recall and I have recall issues)

So, if Shane can find some humor in FCP X, then perhaps you are right. It might be time to change the title of this forum.


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Ben Scott
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 12:26:11 pm

I think it should be changed

but then where would Aindreas Gallagher bless us with his insights


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Steve Connor
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 1:29:12 pm

[Ben Scott] "I think it should be changed

but then where would Aindreas Gallagher bless us with his insights

"


Aindreas won't have any time to post in the New Year as he'll be busy learning Avid :)

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 12:56:06 pm

I think you have to wait until early 2012.

When FCP X supports multicam and broadcast quality video monitoring.

I'm sure, whenever this happens, there will be some interesting discussions. Like when FCP X added support for XML.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Time to change the forum name yet?
on Dec 22, 2011 at 9:04:48 pm

The "After Effects Techniques" forum and the "Broadcast Design" forum point to the same discussion board. Maybe that'd be a good way to start the transition here? Keep "Apple FCPX or Not: The Debate" around as long as it has legs, but open it up for broader discussions by adding another link with a different name?

Of course, the tone on this forum is, shall we say, unique. Someone innocently clicking through an "Industry Trends" forum might be in for a bit of a surprise...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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