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FCPX Trumps Avid

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Jason Jenkins
FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 5:54:45 pm

True Story:

Potential Client (via Email): I found you on Creative Cow. Can you do some editing for me? I do rough cuts in iMovie and I need someone to polish them up.

Me: Sure! I use FCPX and I can import your iMovie project directly.

Client: That's great! I spent days communicating with another editor, only to find out he edits on Avid and can't do anything with my iMovie projects.

Edit happens. I get paid quickly. Everybody is happy. (Except the Avid editor.)

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Brian Mulligan
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 6:14:19 pm

I am sure the Avid Editor is happy he/she didn't have to deal with the iMovie project. So everybody IS a winner.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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Christian Schumacher
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 6:13:52 pm

I have a tricky question:

How many iMovie gigs one has to score in order to match a single Avid one?


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tony west
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 6:22:40 pm

I think the more likely future are X jobs.

A job started on X, but they want that finished by an experienced editor that knows X maybe better than them.

(Better at Motion and using the sound files than them)


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 6:28:04 pm

Probably an infinite number since we all know that there isn't a single Avid editor on the planet working on no/low budget projects like resume movies and "foot in the door" projects.

In fact registered ownership of the "proper" software alone is what causes clients to show up with big budget gigs.

Didn't you know that?

(grin)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 7:53:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "In fact registered ownership of the "proper" software alone is what causes clients to show up with big budget gigs. Didn't you know that? (grin)"

Owning the "proper" software isn't sufficient for getting the big budget gigs, but it's usually necessary. It took FCP Classic quite a long time to earn clients' trust, and from what I'm seeing, FCPX just isn't there right now.

I don't mean to say one can't use FCPX, or that it won't ever get there, but really... would everyone using FCPX for "big budget gigs" today please raise their hands?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 8:00:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "would everyone using FCPX for "big budget gigs" today please raise their hands?"

Define "big budget"

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 8:03:53 pm

[Steve Connor] "Define "big budget""

Don't ask me. Ask Bill. His words, not mine.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 8:21:07 pm

How about looking at the question of NLE platform attracting clients another way. Among discerning clients seeking post-production services (not full-service, end-to-end production), which ones of these statements would they like most to hear?
  • "We'll be cutting your project on an Avid in our fully-equipped suite."
  • "We'll be cutting your project on FCP7 in our fully-equipped suite."
  • "We'll be cutting your project on FCPX in our fully-equipped suite."


I am sure that someone will say that the tools don't matter, and only the results do. For that, I'll add the following:
  • "We'll be cutting your project on iMovie on our laptops in a coffee shop."


Rightly or wrongly, many clients use your choice of tool to help them gauge the kind of results they can expect. Others may have specific reasons for wanting a project to be cut on a specific platform.

My guess is that most folks using FCPX professionally are providing finished products to their clients. FCPX can be a perfectly suitable choice here.

However, on larger, multi-vendor projects, which tend to be what I'd consider "big budget gigs," FCPX's low level of interoperability is an obstacle. On jobs like these, the tool choice does matter a great deal.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:42:23 pm

[Walter Soyka] "How about looking at the question of NLE platform attracting clients another way. Among discerning clients seeking post-production services (not full-service, end-to-end production), which ones of these statements would they like most to hear?
"We'll be cutting your project on an Avid in our fully-equipped suite."
"We'll be cutting your project on FCP7 in our fully-equipped suite."
"We'll be cutting your project on FCPX in our fully-equipped suite."
"


See you and raise you... (if you'll allow a string bet)

The story...

Through a friend of a friend you secure an amazingly talented singer/songwriter to appear at your companies year end party.

Unfortunately we haven't the budget to rent a wonderful piano that night, all that's available is the cheap piano in the lounge.

So do you tell the entertainer the deal's off? 10 out of 10 times the answer is no.

You know the talent isn't in the tool, and you expect that while someone who's good at what they do might have a "preference" for a particular tool - the tool and the talent are separate things.

So if thats true (and it largely is) then this concept starts out with little persuasive power. We're arguing mis-perceptions, not something that truly sets the skills of pros and amateurs apart.

As long as the editor knows how to push the buttons, they can edit on anything. Just as a person who knows how to press the keys on a Steinway can also rock on a Casio.

The point is that clients who hire something like "general editing" based on tools rather than talent are all too often just playing games. People who really understand the truth know that unless there's a specific capability that's not present in a specific tool (which is the most solid argument against X at this point, IMO) - then the software you cut on is a, very, very minor piece of the puzzle. Yes, pros often use the finest tools. But not always. And nobody argues that ELTON JOHN with a lousy bar piano can't entertain rings around you or me or anyone else we know sitting at a Steinway.

"What do you cut on?" is one of the classic trigger phrases that I'm dealing with a newbie and need to consider doubling my rate if I take a gig, because their brain isn't on THEIR job - which is assessing the editor's talent and capabilities - but rather than impressing themselves with their "insider" knowledge.

In truth, I can't remember the last "serious" client who even knows what software I use. (But I can name a number of non-pros - including all my kids friends, half the still photogs I know, and even my dentist, who have an "opinion" on Avid, vs Adobe vs X!)

The above is not always true. And I freely admit that sometimes tools are an indicator of an artists abilities - but, IMO, that is neither universal, dependable, nor even a very smart standard in a world where yesterday's expensive rare tool is regularly supplanted by tools that cost much less, but are every bit as professional - Final Cut Pro Legacy being a prime example, after all.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 2:53:48 am

Before I get into my response, I'd like to add that none of this is meant to knock FCPX. There are some things I really do like about it, and I think that it can be the right tool for plenty of professional work. That said, there is still quite a bit of work that it's just not ready for, and as professionals, I think we need to understand when using FCPX is and is not appropriate.


[Bill Davis] "See you and raise you... (if you'll allow a string bet)"

Any time!


[Bill Davis] "Through a friend of a friend you secure an amazingly talented singer/songwriter to appear at your companies year end party. Unfortunately we haven't the budget to rent a wonderful piano that night, all that's available is the cheap piano in the lounge. So do you tell the entertainer the deal's off? 10 out of 10 times the answer is no."

I was talking about a real-world production scenario, not a contrived talent-versus-tool argument.

Can an amazing musician perform on a cheap lounge piano? Yes. Would they choose the cheap lounge piano as their instrument of choice? No.


[Bill Davis] "You know the talent isn't in the tool, and you expect that while someone who's good at what they do might have a "preference" for a particular tool - the tool and the talent are separate things. As long as the editor knows how to push the buttons, they can edit on anything. Just as a person who knows how to press the keys on a Steinway can also rock on a Casio."

I agree, to a point -- but I think that selecting the appropriate tool for the job is often an important part of what we do.

Perhaps you'd be willing to put your money where your mouth is, tell all your clients that they're hiring you for your talent and that your tools don't matter, then rock all your 2012 client projects on Windows Movie Maker?


[Bill Davis] "Yes, pros often use the finest tools. But not always. And nobody argues that ELTON JOHN with a lousy bar piano can't entertain rings around you or me or anyone else we know sitting at a Steinway."

Sir Elton specifically prefers Yamaha grand pianos, which are fitted with MIDI rail pickups underneath the keyboard. He dropped Steinway because he didn't feel the Steinway's tone cut through the band well enough. He seems to believe the tool does matter to his performance.

I don't believe he's ever toured with a Casio.


[Bill Davis] "The point is that clients who hire something like "general editing" based on tools rather than talent are all too often just playing games. People who really understand the truth know that unless there's a specific capability that's not present in a specific tool (which is the most solid argument against X at this point, IMO) - then the software you cut on is a, very, very minor piece of the puzzle."

Again, as in my response to Nick, I think this depends on what the client is hiring you for. For clients like agencies and production companies -- clients who must concern themselves with the workflow as well as the final product -- the software you cut on matters a great deal.

Some of my clients don't care what tools I use. Others require me to use specific tools, and they have legitimate reasons.


[Bill Davis] ""What do you cut on?" is one of the classic trigger phrases that I'm dealing with a newbie and need to consider doubling my rate if I take a gig, because their brain isn't on THEIR job - which is assessing the editor's talent and capabilities - but rather than impressing themselves with their "insider" knowledge."

Again, it depends on who's asking, and you're right that an end client not involved in media production can't use the answer to that question to make an informed decision about hiring you.

From a producer or post supervisor, though, that question can be a matter of assessing an editor's capabilities. For example, if you told me you were cutting with FCPX, I'd be leery of handing you a job with interlaced footage from a broad variety of sources. I'd want to know what your plan was to avoid the reversed field issues that I see on broadcast TV on a near-daily basis.


[Bill Davis] "And I freely admit that sometimes tools are an indicator of an artists abilities - but, IMO, that is neither universal, dependable, nor even a very smart standard in a world where yesterday's expensive rare tool is regularly supplanted by tools that cost much less, but are every bit as professional - Final Cut Pro Legacy being a prime example, after all."

I thought we were in agreement that FCP v1, at its release, was decidedly not "every bit as professional" as Avid at the time, but rather that it matured over time. The stigma of cutting on FCP did fade away as the software improved.

I'm certainly not saying that the NLE an editor uses is a reasonable proxy for gauging their skill. We are in absolute agreement there.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:08:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I don't mean to say one can't use FCPX, or that it won't ever get there, but really... would everyone using FCPX for "big budget gigs" today please raise their hands?
"


Does this presume that the number would be more or less than the number of hands that would have gone up for Legacy six months after IT was released? Or are we requiring the sibling to perform at the level of it's decade older brother simply because they have the same last name?

: )

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 4:11:34 am

[Bill Davis] "Does this presume that the number would be more or less than the number of hands that would have gone up for Legacy six months after IT was released? Or are we requiring the sibling to perform at the level of it's decade older brother simply because they have the same last name?"

I presume it would be about the same -- near zero.

Are you arguing that FCPX should get a free pass because it's new?

Who cares how FCPX v10.0.x compares to FCP v1.x? It's not competing against v1. It's competing against Avid MC 5.5/6.0, Premiere Pro CS5.5, and FCP7, so aren't those reasonable standards to judge it by?

It some areas FCPX comes out ahead, but in some it comes out behind. At this point, I'm not seeing FCPX winning the "big budget gigs." I don't mean this to be derogatory or forward-looking; it's just a simple statement about the post work I see being done in 2011.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 5:49:04 am

[Walter Soyka] "Are you arguing that FCPX should get a free pass because it's new?"

No Walter, it does't need anything remotely like a "free pass" - because it's a competent general purpose editing program right now.

The areas of debate are in extended capabilities and suitability for top level pro tasks - some of which it does really well right now (short form web video, sports highlights, corporate training, etc) and some of which it does poorly or not at all (multi-cam, ProTools round tripping, integration with high end color timing, etc.)

The only question really left is this: will the arc of it's inevitable development journey follow a "public highway" path where the features concentrate on the needs represented by the majority of the "drivers" in the population - or whether the capabilities that the specialists legitimately require - like the ability to win particular races consistently - will be elevated sooner rather than later to turn it into a better tool for those who need or just want a "race optimized" vehicle.

Nobody's really arguing it get a "free pass" - which would mean it doesn't function and therefore has no place in the editing world.

It does, - even if that place isn't the one people expected it to fill prior to it's release.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Scott Sheriff
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 21, 2011 at 7:42:11 am

[Bill Davis] "No Walter, it does't need anything remotely like a "free pass" - because it's a competent general purpose editing program right now."

This must be some new usage of the term "general purpose" that I wasn't previously aware of. By your own admission "...some of which it does poorly or not at all (multi-cam, ProTools round tripping, integration with high end color timing, etc.)", it doesn't sound all that "general purpose" to me. Especially when X is compared to it's predecessor, or contemporaries. Everyone that gushes on and on about X and how great/fast/hela-kewl it is always has some specific niche workflow. OK, fine. So in some specific situations, for some specific workflows, it seems faster for some people.
When you can use X as a stand alone NLE (and not use X as a 300 dollar plugin for another NLE) and take any project that comes in the door, not just some down and dirty, quick turn around DSLR stuff, then maybe you can claim X is a general purpose editing program.
Until then...not so much.

On the argument that a guy like Elton John doesn't need a Steinway...well, it seems ludicrous. A typical silly straw man argument. Maybe the real question is not does he need a Steinway, but as a professional would he prefer to use a Steinway? I'm guessing he would.
A few people got some recognition using a Fisher-Price PXL 2000 KiddieCorder in a few art movies and band videos, does that mean everyone should scrap their Red/Alexa/Genesis cameras?
But if you want to stick with straw man scenarios, I doubt Kyle Bush, or Sebastian Vettel would do very well against any one of us in a race if they were stuck in a Yugo, while we were allowed a Cup or F1 car. I might even have a fighting chance against Tiger Woods if the only club he was allowed to use was a pitching wedge.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 21, 2011 at 4:53:47 pm

[Scott Sheriff] " I might even have a fighting chance against Tiger Woods if the only club he was allowed to use was a pitching wedge."

No you wouldn't... :)

But everything else you wrote in right on the money.

[Scott Sheriff] "When you can use X as a stand alone NLE (and not use X as a 300 dollar plugin for another NLE) and take any project that comes in the door, not just some down and dirty, quick turn around DSLR stuff, then maybe you can claim X is a general purpose editing program.
Until then...not so much."


Good point!

[Scott Sheriff] "A few people got some recognition using a Fisher-Price PXL 2000 KiddieCorder in a few art movies and band videos, does that mean everyone should scrap their Red/Alexa/Genesis cameras?"

Careful, Bill might start advocating the use of KiddieCorders and we'll have to wade through lengthy diatribes extolling their agility too.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 6:31:06 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "How many iMovie gigs one has to score in order to match a single Avid one?"

I have no idea. Define "Avid gig"?

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Joseph Owens
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 7:16:13 pm

Define AVID gig?

"Monetized"?

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Marvin Holdman
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 9:22:59 pm

Hi Jason,

Thanks for sharing. I took a moment and peeked at your website. Nice work. It's good to see that you have 10 years experience doing this type of work. With that sort of experience, I expect you want to continue to work. This is why it puzzles me that you are so proud of the fact that you are on the front lines of our industries seeming "race to the bottom" rate wise. The fact that you have apparently undercut a contemporary, who seems to have a lot more of an investment in money and (perhaps) time in what is still an industry standard NLE makes me wonder if you've thought out the broader implications of what this might mean for someone in your position.

With 10 years into this game, I expect you anticipate continuing growth of your business. While many might say lowering your investment overhead will make you inherently more competitive price wise, it also broadens the opportunity for those who will undercut your prices as well. While you may have gotten the gig this time, next time your new client is just as apt to contract out their high school cousin who just got FCPX. Yes, I know your experience is what separates you from others with whom you might compete, but you will still have to deal with a much larger pack of lesser skilled competition.

When DV came along, I still shot BetaSP for many years before transitioning to it. All that time, I had to compete against a growing pack of idiots who could afford the first generation of DV camera's and sold many of my clients on it being "just as good" and "broadcast" at a fraction of the industry rate. All of those clients eventually came back when they realized it takes more than a camera to craft video. There were many gleeful shooters who I thought very poorly of, though I never said as much to them or my wayward clients. When asked, I would only say, "Good luck with that, I'm here if you need me" and more times than not, they did end up needing me.

My point is, it is great, appropriate and appreciated that you share your experience in the a forum such as this, but it is a bit of an overstatement to say "FCPX Trumps Avid". It's like saying "Nails Trumps Screws". They both have their appropriate uses. I would like to believe you are merely excited by the fact that you have gotten a job using FCPX. Nothing wrong with that, but it's only an example of an appropriate usage of this application. One that I am sincerely thankful that you have shared.

"FCPX Trumps Avid"? Um, not quite yet. Maybe in a few years.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Jason Jenkins
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 9:44:36 pm

[Marvin Holdman] "it puzzles me that you are so proud of the fact that you are on the front lines of our industries seeming "race to the bottom" rate wise. The fact that you have apparently undercut a contemporary"

I have no idea what the Avid guy charges, but I don't think $150/hr is racing to the bottom. In fact, I've worked long and hard to get up to that.

[Marvin Holdman] "idiots who could afford the first generation of DV camera's and sold many of my clients on it being "just as good" and "broadcast" at a fraction of the industry rate."

Yep, I was one of them. I talked my Dad into buying me a Sony VX-1000. And, yeah... my work was not very good. The camera wasn't the problem, though.

[Marvin Holdman] "it is a bit of an overstatement to say "FCPX Trumps Avid""

I agree, but I couldn't resist posting my story with an inflammatory subject line! :)

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Marvin Holdman
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:34:11 pm

Jason Jenkins - "I have no idea what the Avid guy charges, but I don't think $150/hr is racing to the bottom. In fact, I've worked long and hard to get up to that."

Very happy to hear that, was afraid you were going to say you were charging something like $25/hr. Stick to your rates, this is hard work and as you know it cost more than money, it cost time! At that rate you can afford the time it takes to do this. I've had clients who have had sticker shock over rates before. So much so, they decided to try it themselves. What they found was, they weren't necessarily paying me for the time I spent working on their project, they were paying me for all the time I've spent learning the craft. They could pay me for an hour at $150, or they could spend 6 hours of their own time figuring out what experience has already taught me. In the end, they're not buying my time, they're buying my experience.

Kudos to getting a good rate!

Jason Jenkins - "I agree, but I couldn't resist posting my story with an inflammatory subject line! :)"

Kinda like wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt to a Republican debate?

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Chris Conlee
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 9:43:41 pm

Yeah, I've got short film that I've been cutting on Avid for an ex-girlfriend of a friend, and I've been involved with it now for about 3 years (off and on) for a grand total of probably $1,000 dollars. Arggh. Yeah, having Avid DEFINITELY assures the good paying gigs. LOL.

Chris


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 9:54:20 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "Define "Avid gig"?"

A job requiring an Avid (or other high end editing app...FCP 7 included) to get the job done. One that requires a professionals touch, and has certain technical aspects that only high end NLEs can provide. And one that typically pays a respectable rate, because of the high end nature of the work.

An "iMovie job" is typically very low end with little to no consideration given to technical aspects, and one that might pay, but pay very little. The fact that the director did the rough cut themselves only adds to prove that point more...save money by doing the rough themselves. On a free editing app they can use with their MacBook.

Think of it. When someone says "we need an editor to help finish a project. It was cut with iMovie," what image enters your mind as to what level of production this project is? Opposed to "we need an editor to help finish a project. It was cut with Avid Media Composer." What image does that bring to your mind as to the level of production?

It is cool that there now is a tool that can take someone's rough they did with iMovie and put it into an environment with more controls. Cool that you were able to get it done. FCX trumped Avid in this one case. It was the right tool for the right job. Glad they gave us this tool to be able to do that.

But very sorry that they killed the pro app in order to give us the ability to work on people's iMovie projects...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jason Jenkins
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:03:39 pm

[Shane Ross] "Think of it. When someone says "we need an editor to help finish a project. It was cut with iMovie," what image enters your mind as to what level of production this project is? Opposed to "we need an editor to help finish a project. It was cut with Avid Media Composer." What image does that bring to your mind as to the level of production?"

I knew going in that it wouldn't be something I would put on my demo reel. Do think I should turn down a job because it comes in the form of an iMovie project? My rate is my rate.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:05:17 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "Do think I should turn down a job because it comes in the form of an iMovie project? My rate is my rate."

Heck, if you can get your rate on that project, and have the tool to do it right (FCX)...then great!

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Kevin Patrick
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 6:38:25 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "! I spent days communicating with another editor, only to find out he edits on Avid and can't do anything with my iMovie projects."

I bet the Avid editor is this person's spouse.

This person talked to their spouse for days only to find out he can't do anything with my iMovie projects.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 6:40:55 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "I bet the Avid editor is this person's spouse.

This person talked to their spouse for days only to find out he can't do anything with my iMovie projects."


Totally lost me here...

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 8:09:57 pm

The Avid editor your client was talking to, is your client's spouse.

Kind of like ...

Brothers and sisters I have none,
But that man's father was my father's son.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 8:22:34 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "The Avid editor your client was talking to, is your client's spouse."

I understand what you are saying, just not why.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 9:53:19 pm

Because I thought it was funny.

Sorry.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 9:55:57 pm

[Kevin Patrick] " Because I thought it was funny.

Sorry."


I'm sorry I didn't get your joke. That happens to me too :)

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Neil Patience
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 7:56:29 pm

Regardless of anything trumping anything else,

What I would like to know is what did the client manage to talk to the editor about, not for a few minutes or a few hours but "days communicating" and yet somehow the words "I cut something on iMovie can you help me" didnt come up in the conversation once - for several days ?

Based on what you have said, in my head this scenario goes:

Client:
Hi I am looking for an editor to help me with a project that I am working on, I have done some rough cuts but need some finishing - could you possibly help me ?

Editor:
Sure, love to help - what format did you shoot on and what did you use to do your rough cuts ?

Client: Oh I shot on DV, HDV, DSLR (whatever) and I have done some rough edits on iMovie but I am looking for someone finish and polish them for me.

Editor: I only work on Avid I am afraid, I could suggest some ways of getting your work into my system but I wont be able to read your project files directly.

Seriously, they communicated for days without this ever coming up once - the editor never asked and the client never mentioned formats, editing systems, project files, sequences - what the hell were they talking about ?

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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Nick Toth
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 8:14:23 pm

I've earned a decent living doing video production and editing for nearly 30 years. Very rarely has a client been overly concerned with many of the issues that the professionals on these forums talk about. In my experience they just want the job done reasonably well within their budget and time constraints. They don't otherwise care if I were to use a pinhole camera and stop-motion to get it done.

NT


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 8:35:54 pm

[Nick Toth] "I've earned a decent living doing video production and editing for nearly 30 years. Very rarely has a client been overly concerned with many of the issues that the professionals on these forums talk about. In my experience they just want the job done reasonably well within their budget and time constraints. They don't otherwise care if I were to use a pinhole camera and stop-motion to get it done."

I think it depends on what kind of client is hiring you.

End clients are results-only.

For agency or production company clients, both results and processes count.

I recently lost a bid for some 3D animation work because I use Cinema 4D and the agency wanted native Maya work. Could we have achieved the same end results with C4D? Of course, but that would have only met one of the agency's needs. They also needed to know that the work would fit in their client's pipeline without any issues if they needed to repurpose it.

From their perspective, even though we have a great relationship and they knew that we'd deliver the results they needed, I would have been the wrong choice for the job specifically because of the tools I use.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 8:47:22 pm

Another comment from the real world...

I cut on Avid, Premiere Pro, FCP 7 and FCP X as needed. I have NEVER had a client send me files to finish from any other NLE than FCP 7. That's the main reason I moved my home machines to Macs years ago to maintain this compatibility. I suspect that will continue. Sure would have been nice if Apple had considered this reality.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 9:22:34 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Another comment from the real world... I cut on Avid, Premiere Pro, FCP 7 and FCP X as needed."

In your experience, Oliver, when has FCPX been the best choice?

What are the characteristics of a good FCPX job?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 9:55:11 pm

[Walter Soyka] "In your experience, Oliver, when has FCPX been the best choice?"

That's hard to answer. So far for me it has yet to be the best choice. There are things I love and hate about it. For everything that speeds up the workflow, there are several that slow it down. I have used it on several unsupervised, paying gigs mainly to see where the skeletons are and to get the chops up just in case. This includes round-tripping through Resolve.

Right now the sweet spot tends to be short-form projects, like simple commercials, web or short marketing videos. Something that is dialogue or picture-driven and very light on graphics and text.

Another possible "best choice" might be if you wanted to cut RED footage at 2K or 4K. Convert to ProRes first in Redcine-X Pro and then cut at native sizes in FCP X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:03:30 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Right now the sweet spot tends to be short-form projects"

PS: I do believe I'm starting to see a divide in where the NLEs are going based on a lot of things I've seen posted here and in other places over the past 6 months. I think that in general, film editors, broadcast TV stations and post facilities will likely trend back to either Avid or maybe over to Premiere Pro. I think companies with in-house "creative" post operations (like ad agencies, media marketing companies - the sort of model typified by @Radical Media) may very well trend over to FCP X.

I realize a number of folks here have posted about cutting docs and TV shows on FCP X, but I really believe that's an extreme exception for this kind of work. There may be some producer/director/shooter-types doing it, but I simply can't envision too many experienced editors working in these genres adopting FCP X for this type of work. There's just too much missing and the application is way too unstable at this point in time.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 5:15:02 am

[Oliver Peters] "like ad agencies"

I know of no one in the LA promo world that is considering it. I do know of a few boutiques who are thinking a bit harder about Premiere because they do so much AE work, but no fcp X.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 5:56:06 am

[Chris Harlan] "I know of no one in the LA promo world that is considering it."

Which merely means that if the wide world of editing best reflects the needs of LA promo editors that you hang with - it will have rough going.

If, on the other hand, the wider world of video editing better reflects needs that are NOT always aligned with the specific needs of LA promo editors - then it may well do just fine.

And if it continues to grow and develop (and it's direct app sale model and the economic strength of Apple give it a superb chance of doing so) then people may change their tune over it's initial years, just as they did with V1 starting back in 1999.)

Sooner or later we'll know who had a clearer view of what it takes for an editing software package at the dawn of 2012 to do well in the marketplace.

It will be interesting, if nothing else.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 6:53:47 am

[Bill Davis] "Which merely means that if the wide world of editing best reflects the needs of LA promo editors that you hang with - it will have rough going."

Bill, it is not about who I personally "hang with." Believe me, it is as discussed in this town as much as it is in this forum, because here it is an industrial matter and important to many people's livelihoods. There is no room for pie-in-the-sky-well-hey-maybe-someday.


[Bill Davis] "If, on the other hand, the wider world of video editing better reflects needs that are NOT always aligned with the specific needs of LA promo editors - then it may well do just fine."

As usual for you, you take something completely out of context and turn it into something that is not--with, I might add, your own brand of condescending snottiness. I know of no one, among the posters on this site, who so regularly twists and distorts what others say. If you actually bother to look back, you will see that Oliver was making a comment about advertising agencies, and I was simply reporting back about my local experience. You turned it into something else. Why? Got me. FWIW, the FCPX dismay extends, here in LA, well beyond the world of promo preditors to include pretty much the entire entertainment industry.

[Bill Davis] "And if it continues to grow and develop (and it's direct app sale model and the economic strength of Apple give it a superb chance of doing so) then people may change their tune over it's initial years, just as they did with V1 starting back in 1999.)"

This old chestnut needs to be retired. In 1999 NLE was relatively new. v1 had an excuse. A dozen years later, vX does not.


[Bill Davis] "Sooner or later we'll know who had a clearer view of what it takes for an editing software package at the dawn of 2012 to do well in the marketplace."

I don't CARE how FCP X does in the market place. I only care how I do in the market place. If FCP X can ever help me with that, I'll be on board as soon as it does.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 12:04:11 am

[Nick Toth] "I've earned a decent living doing video production and editing for nearly 30 years. Very rarely has a client been overly concerned with many of the issues that the professionals on these forums talk about. In my experience they just want the job done reasonably well within their budget and time constraints. They don't otherwise care if I were to use a pinhole camera and stop-motion to get it done."

That may be how it works where you live. So, that's your frame of reference. But, the rest of the world doesn't always function the same way.

Here in Los Angeles, where most production companies own their own editing system(s), freelancers are typically hired to either work on in the client's edit bay, or their hired to finish on a similar system. Generalities of one's own experience, even when it over 30-years, don't necessarily apply to others.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 12:05:44 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Generalities of one's own experience, even when it over 30-years, don't necessarily apply to others."

Wise words

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 1:43:39 am

[Steve Connor] "Wise words"

Did we agree once again Steve, or was that a subtle dig? I need to know so I can keep my scoreboard up to date. :)

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 10:04:43 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Did we agree once again Steve, or was that a subtle dig? I need to know so I can keep my scoreboard up to date. :)"

It was a genuine reply to a very good point you made.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 6:23:03 pm

[Steve Connor] "It was a genuine reply to a very good point you made."

Great! That's one gold star for both you and me.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Nick Toth
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 12:13:50 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Generalities of one's own experience, even when it over 30-years, don't necessarily apply to others."

Actually that was my point. Your statement can be applied to many posts on these forums. There are editors outside of LA after all. :)

NT


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 1:34:20 pm

Nick, I've been to the far edges of LA. One side is water. The other is sand. To say that there is anything else beyond is the stuff of myth. There are the old stories of whole peoples beyond--out there--but the wisest of us know that such tales are the province of the feeble-minded and poorly educated.


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Nick Toth
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 9:07:09 pm

LOL! :)

NT


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 6:35:51 pm

[Nick Toth] "There are editors outside of LA after all. :)"

Of course there are. However, the ecosystem here should not be overlooked or disregarded just because it is L.A.

L.A. literally has post-production facilities on just about every street corner, the largest army of well-trained technicians and artists in the world, and more projects cranking at any given time and in every conceivable budget range than the rest of the world combined. So, people do look to L.A. as a real-world test bed for hardware and software.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 7:40:20 pm

Didn't you all get the memo? There's a world revolution going underway and it is sweeping us away, everywhere .
They are comprised of a swarm of "potential clients" now looking for FCPX editors fiercely across the web.
:-)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 9:12:29 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "They are comprised of a swarm of "potential clients" now looking for FCPX editors fiercely across the web.
:-)"


Isn't that exciting! I can't wait until the same clients start calling me to fix all of those projects and finish them properly.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Nick Toth
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 17, 2011 at 9:11:16 pm

No doubt. I've gotten a lot of good info from the LAFCPUG website for example.


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Scott Cumbo
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 19, 2011 at 4:15:23 am

[David Roth Weiss] "[Nick Toth] "There are editors outside of LA after all. :)"

Of course there are. I>

sure their are some editors in NYC... haha, couldn't resist.

But really, The talent has nothing to do with the app. I'm sure FCPX is great, but i won't know until a client instist on using it.
And when they do I'll figure it out on the fly , same way I learned FCP7 and most every app i know.

Scott Cumbo
Editor
Broadway Video, NYC


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tony west
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:55:32 pm

[Nick Toth] "In my experience they just want the job done reasonably well within their budget and time constraints."


Yes, Nick

I agree big time with this.

If they had the skill and knowledge that we do they wouldn't need us.

They have an idea in their heads and they want us to make it happen.

When we do that they are happy. However we get there.


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Craig Seeman
Re: FCPX Trumps Avid
on Dec 16, 2011 at 10:38:19 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "True Story:

Potential Client (via Email): I found you on Creative Cow. Can you do some editing for me? I do rough cuts in iMovie and I need someone to polish them up.

Me: Sure! I use FCPX and I can import your iMovie project directly.

Client: That's great! I spent days communicating with another editor, only to find out he edits on Avid and can't do anything with my iMovie projects."


Thanks for that Jason. I've had a couple of jobs using iMovie import as well. There are a number of companies who start out with either rough cuts, first cuts (Randy Ubilos should have won that naming issue) who end up taking their work to a "real editor."

BTW also proves my point that potential clients really do find people on the COW. Which is why I think one's personal behavior does make a difference. The internet is not a hiding place.



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