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Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?

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Craig Shamwell
Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 6:41:26 pm

While I writ this I am building a 30sec spot for a client. (I am in the process of learning CS5.5 Premier) I have 27 3.4 I7 iMac with 16g Ram.
I opened up the project and before I could even do anything it was rendering...something. I added the customer's logo, 1000/1000 at 72dpi and re-sized it. In the time its taken me to write this, the render is at 6....yes that's 6! I have noticed that when your project gets the least bit involved, render times increase tremendously!! Was not one of the benefits of FCPX, "Rendering is a thing of the past!" I have found FCPX the slowest of all NLE I have ever used!! And has anyone else noticed all the other crazy stuff that happens in FCPX?? Transitions get grabbed by other elements in the timeline and randomly attached as you drag the transition to its destination? And how about the main track the only one you can append, insert and overwrite edit using the shortcuts??
(The render in my project is now at 11!)
Or the fact that every element in the timeline has to attached to some other element, and deleting an unwanted element can sometimes delete other wanted elements or everything in the project?!?! Seriously???
And whats up with the black place holders that are sometimes left when you delete an element?? I saw where someone posted asking as to what those are and why??? (...its at 18, and keep in mind I type slow)
And has anyone tried to move a connected clip???....oh my god...the timeline starts jumping all over the place with elements moving around a repositioning themselves where ever they find a place!!!
Is this seriously how Apple wants this editor to work??
I tried to get a refund after working with it for several months but Apple said no....or should I say the APP Store!
I have found FCPX more a pain than its worth and hopefully by next week I'll be ready for the switch. I would love to hear if anyone else has the same problems!!??


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Steve Connor
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 6:59:34 pm

Does it actually need to render to play? You can turn off background rendering in preferences and render out later, In my experience with the software it seems to play almost everything without rendering.

Black placeholders are gap clips, just like in Avid as for everything else, that's the way the software works, it's different, you need to learn exactly how it works to avoid some of the issues you have mentioned. There are lots of resources out there that will tell you how to work correctly with FCPX. I would highly recommend them if you continue working with the software.

Otherwise PPro is a great alternative

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Craig Shamwell
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 9:47:54 pm

Seriously???...lots of resources!! I have several subscriptions and have engulfed myself in learning the program..."properly"!!
Funny how you did not comment on several other issues, like deleting elements in the timeline and how they are connected...not like Avid or Premiere. Or how about transitions getting grabbed and attached randomly??? Or how about the main "track" (even though its supposed to be trackless) being the only one you can use the shortcuts to edit????
And to suggest that taking a tutorial will make the editor render faster when Apple boasted big time as to how fast it renders...when it does not.
And when you do have background rendering, you really can't do much else...playback is anything but smooth and adding transitions or working on other parts of the project will often times cause a crash.
Think about this, why would a trackless video editor be better than one with tracks?? While the track is self contained..unaffected by anything else, in FCPX everything can be affected by what you do somewhere else in the timeline?! The power of being able to activate only one portion of your project, and not have what you do there only affect that part is gone in FCPX!!! And how about moving compounded clips around???? The program goes haywire!!! This has absolutely nothing to do with my know-how about FCPX. I don't know how much you edit, and how involved your projects are. But I can tell you that when I have 30 sec project with video, pictures, transitions, filters, text, music and voice-over and the project is 10+ stories high, This program gets winded quick and simply does not work, and my know how or lack there of has nothing to with the things I am talking about. I would love to know what you are editing!!!


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Steve Connor
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 9:58:56 pm

Long form documentary, 2 hour event films, short corporate films, music highlights videos, just started a feature film on it. Yes, it doesn't work like Avid and Premiere and if you try to make it work like them you will get stuck very quickly.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Craig Shamwell
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 11:46:39 pm

Yes just as I assumed. Your projects in the timeline are not that complicated. Shooting and Preparation are the toughest part of your process. Do you have any projects where in the time-span of 30sec you have 60+ elements involved? Its in the stacking that boggs FCPX down.
Thanks!


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Jim Giberti
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 10:48:26 pm

Craig you're about three months late with this. Virtually everything you're asking/frustrating about has been discussed over and over here so you'll understand why your post isn't exciting a lot of interest.

If you want to get up to speed on how folks are working with X and/or commiserate with those that decided they didn't or couldn't work with it, grab some coffee and spend a few hours reading.

Many of us are turning out a lot of work with X. For instance, I've got several 30 second spots and a short film in different stages of production in X, no issues either with rendering, crashing or anything else. Just put two other spots on air and it went wonderfully.

There are a of of great things about this program and some real issues that need to be resolved - but right now, in real time, it's a very useful, fast, powerful editing program that's a lot of fun to use once you understand how to use it.

I spent a good deal of time learning the new paradigm before I ever committed my company and clients work to it, and as I've written in a few threads, I'm glad I did as the work is looking great, and coming together faster than it would in FCP 7.

Much of the current work involves heavy design and compositing and we find X to handle that very well.

You seem very frustrated (lots of ??? and !!!) in your posts.
No need to be. I recommend you take a little time, download some of the many tutorials available, for a few bucks you can get Edgar Rothermich's nicely presented visual tutes at http://www.dingdingmusic.com/DingDing/Manuals.html

It might be a good place for you to start with the "How it Works" and the "The Details" to understand the concepts better before going back to it.

If you can't deal with it or don't like how it works then Premiere Pro is a good alternative to the FCP legacy approach.

Good luck.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 11:15:00 pm

the graphically enhanced manuals Jim mentioned are class - I have them on my iPad, and I do rather adore them - they make FCPX sound like it makes more sense than my black heart actually believes it does...

well worth a buy though - they're pristine.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jim Giberti
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 11:21:48 pm

He did do a great job with them didn't he Aindreas (Blackheart)


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Craig Shamwell
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 11:53:48 pm

I could not agree more...there are many great tutorials about FCPX...a lot for free too!!! But it still does not make it work without the unpredictability involved. Output is pristine, while choices are limited. Marking clips and media management is also very intuitive, except for the lack of being able to create your own folders, as many a tutorial has noted. But there are still many anomalies that are beyond the comprehension of not calling this what it really is and that's a BETA program. I gave this program a fair chance, 3 months in fact. I had it 2 days after it came out. Even waited to see if the first update would make a performance difference, but it did not.
In my opinion...like it or not...its the single worst major program I have ever used.


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Steve Connor
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 12:04:09 am

What storage are you using? Do you have playback set to "better performance" in prefs?

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 12:17:40 am

well, lets put it this way - if in fact Apple have ambitions to make this a functioning continuation of the software and eco-system they just nuked from orbit, they have their work cut out for them.

In my black heart however I look at this:

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/imovie-to-finalcutpro/

and I read this:

"As an iMovie user, you’re already familiar with some features in Final Cut Pro X — such as skimming and the Magnetic Timeline — so you can start working right away."

That's right kids - those best ready for FCPX are imovie users. But we know this right? they are the software's intended audience.
This is a product intended to appeal directly to iMovie users. the degree to which we choose to ignore what is a prosumer advertising approach for prosumer software is mad, if psychologically understandable. Apple are never coming back to NAB. I believe that whole thing is over.

while we may hope that FCPX is somehow coming back as it were, with future revisions, I still think ultimately what Apple meant by "its version 1.0" is that they are pushing out an expanded iMovie that is coining it on the appstore to the intended audience - lets have that quote again:

"As an iMovie user, you’re already familiar with some features in Final Cut Pro X — such as skimming and the Magnetic Timeline — so you can start working right away."

...and Apple are just saying that it all may wash up in our vicinity in half a decade once its gestated through their iMovie base via the appstore. Long after FCP as a whole has gone into arctic professional dead winter.

but this demands software prowess right? to force such a tectonic shift? How is Apple's software prowess? Motion? iTunes? STP even? are any of these particularly good software? How buggy is FCPX? How blindsided were the engineers? what the hell is happening with the project file mutating in size unstably? how is auto-save randomly falling over with no back up?

What if Apple just aren't very good at this kind of thing anymore? How much is actually left of pro-apps? does anyone know?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 1:35:03 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "
How much is actually left of pro-apps? does anyone know?"


Check their http://www.apple.com/pro linky.
You'll see an awfully outdated page filled with 2009 stories...
And there's still FCStudio down there! This must be a good sign, huh?



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Craig Shamwell
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 1:57:01 pm

Whats even more amazing is that iMovie really does work..very well!! In FCPX, things just don;t always work...simple things!
I imagine most of Apple's efforts will be re-focused to maturing the iPad. Pro Apps may just be a thing of the past!


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Jim Giberti
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 12:25:10 am

[Craig Shamwell] "In my opinion...like it or not...its the single worst major program I have ever used."

Hey Craig, your opinion is obviously more than welcome. I neither like it or don't like it. It's an opinion.

FWIW, if I felt that FCPX was the worst program I ever used, then I would definitely drop it like a hot potato and get back to producing in a happy environment.

I thought you were looking for advice which is the only reason I commented on your original post. But if you just want to rant, then rant on brother, this is the place. You're in fine company but you'll have to get a lot more colorful if you want to even move the rant needle on this forum .

When I was on the fence a few months ago I spent some time with the new PP and I think you might find it a great move forward from what your saying. Dennis R from Adobe frequents this forum and is a great resource for all things PP.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 2:23:14 am

[Jim Giberti] "Dennis R from Adobe frequents this forum and is a great resource for all things PP."

Indeed I do. Always willing to help.


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Craig Shamwell
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 11:43:30 pm

First..don't care how much interest my post generates. Could care less. I always write with emotion...sorry! I have been editing for almost 10 years and "know" what I am doing. The question was simple..."Has anyone else experienced what I have?" Not too hard to understand is it? Ok!
I am new to CC and looked back into archives and did not see all the posts you spoke of...sorry! Doing a short film is nothing compared to a 30 or 60 second spot with 60+ elements involved. The work in a short film is the shooting and prep. If story-boarded well, the edits are mostly straight cuts with some coloring, opening and end credits...easy stuff!! You obviously are vested in FCPX and/or Apple and like the other post, suggest that I somehow have not done my homework. I went as far as going to my local Apple Store and doing a test there. Same things happened when things got complicated. And had you read my reply, you would know that I have taken many tutorials. When things work...it is fast...but when its not, you lose all the time you gained before.
I still in fact use FCP7, more than FCPX in fact. Did you tell all the other people who you said have already posted about all the things I am talking about that they too need to take some tutorials so they can know what they are doing? Is this the standard response from editors who love Apple more than anything??... Take tutorials?
I find it hard to believe as you suggest, that FCPX works just fine for you and not everyone else.
The bottom line is FCPX does not work as advertised...not even close. And while it has some real cool stuff in theory, a trackless timeline, as I have used this editor for 3 months now, makes no sense and handicaps the editor instead of freeing him/her. Sure for fairly simple projects its ok...but so is iMovie, which by the way has no rendering at all!! One case in point...I have some Plug-Ins by Idustrial (ParticleMetrix). I dragged a Transition on a "custom" text element and changed the destination and what happened???.... the text after all was rendered, jumped to the middle (from the top where it was)during the transition and also changed size...got really big, and then went back to where it started. It was ugly to say the least. No tutorial had a fix for it.
As I said before, my knowledge or lack there of has nothing to do with something I have never seen NLE do!


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Jim Giberti
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 12:08:23 am

[Craig Shamwell] "You obviously are vested in FCPX and/or Apple and like the other post, suggest that I somehow have not done my homework. I went as far as going to my local Apple Store and doing a test there. Same things happened when things got complicated. And had you read my reply, you would know that I have taken many tutorials. When things work...it is fast...but when its not, you lose all the time you gained before.
I still in fact use FCP7, more than FCPX in fact. Did you tell all the other people who you said have already posted about all the things I am talking about that they too need to take some tutorials so they can know what they are doing? Is this the standard response from editors who love Apple more than anything??... Take tutorials?"


Craig, I can't do much other than tell you honestly about my experience and try and point you to something I thought would help you.

[Craig Shamwell] "I find it hard to believe as you suggest, that FCPX works just fine for you and not everyone else."

I'm sure I didn't say anything like that Craig. I explained how it was working for my company and how you could spend some time and read about the many other users on this forum that are working with it successfully and the ones that aren't and decide whether it was worth it for you.

I also suggested a good alternative in Premiere Pro if you decide you can't or don't want to work with it.

FCPX does work fine for me and for many others. It doesn't sound like you're doing a level of work that is somehow more demanding than the work we're producing for broadcast and film so I don't know what else to offer you than the help that I did.

Again, good luck with your decision.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 12:21:34 am

[Craig Shamwell] "I am new to CC and looked back into archives and did not see all the posts you spoke of...sorry! "

I can tell you that I have personally written war and peace at this stage; that is, if it were written by monkeys with rabies.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 1:16:58 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "In my black heart however I look at this"

[Jim Giberti] "He did do a great job with them didn't he Aindreas (Blackheart)"


[Aindreas Gallagher] "I can tell you that I have personally written war and peace at this stage; that is, if it were written by monkeys with rabies."


Be careful, brother -- this is how nicknames are born! Blackheart is pretty cool, Tolstoy wouldn't be bad, but Rabid Monkey would be a drag for sure...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Nick Toth
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 3:37:31 pm

I am editing spots on FCP X. Have been since it came out. It's different but I prefer it to FCP7. You're right about the demands of spot production versus long-form but I prefer X for both.

The idustrial plug-ins don't always work properly. I have seen what you describe.

Sometimes I have to be creative in how I approach something that I would have done differently in FCP7 but that's one of the things that I was looking for - to find new ways to do things and not rely on doing things the same old way with the same old results.

I am using an early MacPro with 16 GB RAM and a Radeon 5770 under Snow Leopard. I would like to see if Lion makes a difference but I haven't had time to make the transition. My main complaints are the interface lags sometimes, I still have some issues with text reverting to default parameters (specifically line spacing) even with the 10.0.2 update and rendering can be very slow with a complicated project. I look forward to broadcast monitoring but I have checked my work by playing it back with FCP7 through a Kona card and I'm seeing results consistent with what what I see playing back on the desktop.

I have gone back and forth with having background rendering on or off. I finally decided to keep it on with a delay of about 15 seconds. If something is not fully rendered when it comes time to export I just go ahead and export.

From my observation, this version of FCP is very hardware intensive, specifically video card performance, storage performance and amount of RAM.

You don't mention what you're using for storage. If it's not fast you will have problems. It also sounds like you are leaving the skimmer on based on what you said about transitions attaching themselves to other clips. Turn skimmer off (hit "S") when you don't need it. It comes in handy at times, especially when viewing clips in the event library but I rarely use it in the project timeline. One thing I use all the time is re-timing to make things fit. On-camera guy takes 24 seconds to say his piece and I've got 22 seconds to fit him into? Retime and I'm done with pitch correction already applied. Do that in FCP7!

In my day-to-day experience I have found a lot more to like about X than you might expect from reading these forums. There are lots of little things that IMHO are just "better". Some peoples brains just work differently than others. I had no problem adapting to "reversed scrolling" in Lion for example. For other people it's the end of the world.

NT


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 12:34:18 pm

[Jim Giberti] "Edgar Rothermich's nicely presented visual tutes"

Thanks for reminding me. I had gotten his first FCP X book and forgot to check back on his second one. Which I just purchased.

It's rare (at least in my opinion and opinions here are okay) when you come across a well written book, such as his. It does a great job explaining how FCP X works. Since FCP X works so differently, it's really a good reference.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 6, 2011 at 10:09:16 pm

[Craig Shamwell] "I have 27 3.4 I7 iMac with 16g Ram."

With that system you should be screaming (not in agony). What storage are you using?

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 12:27:36 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "With that system you should be screaming (not in agony)."

That's what I found odd. And as Steve points out, he may not even have to render. Plus, with his graphics setup, the output should handle rendering much faster.

Maybe he could post a screen shot of what his 30 second timeline looks like?

I'd ask him, but I think I'd prefer he keeps his "passion" directed at someone else.


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Craig Shamwell
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 2:19:54 pm

For the record, my passion is directed at no one. I am very passionate in make-up, but I find it insulting for anyone to assume that I am need of tutoring with regard to something like a compound clip being moved and the timeline area starts flying all over the place. Seriously, if you try to move a compound clip in a rather involved timeline, elements fly and move wherever they find a "comfortable" spot. This has nothing to do with simply wanting to do something simple like re-position a clip!
Which is why I believe, and want to share the opinion that with out the boundaries of tracks, the control you had in a complicated timeline area by having defined boundaries is gone. And that, most unfortunately is the Achilles heel of FCPX. Why should moving something linearly along its own "line" (I won't say track, because its not supposed to have any, even though it does have one main track) have such an effect on the entire space?
What I have noticed from several of the posts here is that those who really like FCPX are doing films and Documentaries. Which may be the best application for FCPX as it stands. Complicated projects seem to slow FCPX down to a crawl in my 4 months working with it.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 4:33:42 pm

For the record, I think I'm a very funny guy, even though the list of those who would agree might be very short. (only one perhaps?) So, keep that in mind when reading my posts. (or avoiding them altogether as some probably do, no offense taken, no offense intended)

Jim Giberti is right, much of this has been discussed on this forum. Many of the discussions have been rather passionate as well.

I'd summarize all of those discussions as follows ...

Some have tried FCP X and are using it.
Some have tried FCP X and found it works much better in certain ways for their workflow where FCP 7 did not.
Some have tried FCP X and found it useful after some new features were added.
Some have tried FCP X and find it completely unusable.
Some have tried FCP X and not only find it so completely unusable that it pains them to even discuss it. (yet, they punish themselves by continuing to discuss it)
Some have tried FCP X and decided to move away from Final Cut and Apple altogether.

The rest are watching and waiting.

If you are still reading this post, I was wondering if you could provide some more details on your particular project. You have a fairly fast system for running FCP X. Although I'm not sure about where your media is kept. It would be interesting to know more about what you are doing and why you have performance issues. Some things that can slow FCP X down:

FCP X seems to like more than 7 GB of RAM for itself. Plus, if you are running Lion, there seems to be a memory issue where Inactive Memory can quickly consume your free memory. This will slow down FCP X. There are free utilities to free up your memory. (hey, a pun?) Or run the purge command in Terminal.

Are you using any stills? FCP X seems to have performance issues with stills, depending on their size and number. There was another thread that talked about this. Using PNG instead of JPG, less compression.

As as been suggested, if your system can handle your project without rendering, turn it off. I do. Also, it appears that when you export, FCP X seems to utilize your GPU to render things much more quickly.

If you're still reading this thread, I'm impressed. Even I'm getting bored and I think I'm pretty interesting.


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Craig Shamwell
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 5:36:13 pm

OS 10.7.2, GDrives via F800
I read all posts in their entirety...even yours!! (LOL)
Yeah I've gotten to the point where I will give it up till they make major changes. Eventhough I'll delete it, I'll still have access to it via the App Store.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 3:11:26 am

[Craig Shamwell] "I opened up the project and before I could even do anything it was rendering...something."

What format is your media and what format is your timeline?


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Craig Shamwell
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 7, 2011 at 2:26:11 pm

My main footage does match the timeline. I usually allow FCPX to set it auto based on first clip(video). And then I add photos and other elements based on the project. At the start of any project it renders very fast. As the timeline area gets more and more complicated, simply moving and re-timing a text element can take many minutes to render, which in turn slows down other operations.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Has anyone else experienced the painstakingly slow reder times I have with FCPX...among other very irritating things?
on Dec 8, 2011 at 2:52:47 am

[Craig Shamwell] "My main footage does match the timeline. I usually allow FCPX to set it auto based on first clip(video)."

And is your video ProRes or 10bit UC?


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