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Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?

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Chris Jacek
Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 2:24:05 am

I'm not talking about Shakespeare's tragic Moor, but rather the Othello board game, who's slogan was "Minutes to learn, a lifetime to master," or something to that effect. I mention this because I have finally been digging a bit deeper into FCPX in preparation for my re-certification exam as a trainer.

Though I've been a bit of a hater, there are some features that I really like about the new Final Cut, IF they were options, rather than replacements. For example, the connected clip idea is great, as long as you are not FORCED to use them in all instances. Sometimes editors want b-roll to float.

What I find most frustrating overall, however, is that the design of the workflow seems to be quite short-sighted. I think that FCPX has enough impressive features to get people interested, and to get many people (both experienced and beginners) to get up-and-running quickly. The problems occur, however, when you extrapolate to the realm of the power-user.

No matter what your level is coming in, I think it's fair to assume that most users would like FCPX to be an application you could become prolific with. Ideally, we'd all like to have dozens of clients or projects to work on. And no matter how you look at it, FCPX is not designed for that.

The mere fact that ALL of your events, projects, and clips are present and available at all times (whether you like it or not), is concerning. What's even more concerning is that Apple does not view this as a limitation, but as an advantage. If this was just an option, which you could turn on and off, it would be great. But it's absurd to force this short-sighted workflow on all users, at all times.

This may not seem like a problem for your first 5 to 10 projects, but what happens a year or two in, when you hopefully have 100 projects or more. That's awfully messy, and likely to cause significant slowdown. Expecting the editor to create a convoluted system of keywords and meta-data is not a viable solution, and would clearly create WAY more busy-work than a more traditional project structure.

I use this as just one example of what I consider to be a philosophical flaw in the FCPX design, which is unlikely to ever change. Apple seems to prefer it this way, treating everything like it's iTunes.

This is why I wonder whether they are many who are FCPX users now, who will eventually lose interest AFTER they become more familiar with it. Will they jump ship once they realize FCPX's potentially frustrating limitations? Since these limitations have nothing to do with XML or multi-cam editing, are these concerns even on Apple's radar? I'm guessing no.

I think the danger is that Apple has created a program that is fairly easy to jump right into, but does not have much "long-term relationship" potential.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Bret Williams
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 3:36:35 am

Isn't it pretty easy to manually take events offline? Just have a "live" events folder and another you call "offline" or something and move the events there when they're done or on hold or whatever. Seems like it would be pretty easy for Apple to add in an "Event Manager" concept. It would be slightly hidden for power users, and simpler users wouldn't see it.

As for the Keywords, I felt that way until I realized it's no different than creating bins and dragging clips to them. Except you can't really have bins within bins within bins. And really, NLEs were meant to be used more this way originally. There used to be a time 15-18 years ago when drive space was quite expensive as was an hour in an edit facility. We logged every shot by hand, then maybe entered it in a shot logger program. Exported out bins for the editor. Then as editors we only digitized the selects, which were very descriptive with comments and log notes, etc. If we could afford to load in larger chunks at offline resolutions (something I've hardly ever done in nearly 20 years of NLE editing) we'd do a lot of online logging with sub clips. FCP classic eventually let you add marker ranges which, tend to look a lot like the little range bars in FCPX. You can label those ranges and search for the keywords and all that stuff in FCP classic. Just not as smoothly.

OT: the great thing about digitizing tapes for me was that by the time everything was digitized, I was pretty familiar with the material and I'd personally watched a good bit in real time. At the same time we would batch digitize the client and I would discuss the script and graphics and such. Now, you plug in a client's drive and start editing with hardly any forethought or pre conceptualizing. Sometimes for the first couple days of a project, I feel like I'm doing someone else's job although I'm not sure if it's a producer or a PA. Things have become a bit blurred.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 3:41:44 am

Get Event Manager X. $5. Controls what projects and events appear in the the application.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Chris Jacek
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 3:56:49 am

[Bret Williams] "As for the Keywords, I felt that way until I realized it's no different than creating bins and dragging clips to them. Except you can't really have bins within bins within bins. And really, NLEs were meant to be used more this way originally."

This was actually something that I originally planned to add to my original post, but it started getting kinda long. The fact that you cannot have sub-folders is a another big sticking point for me. I have worked on projects with 80 source tapes, and a multi-level folder hierarchy was the only way to maintain order.

I agree with your point of how NLEs were originally were meant to work (economical digitizing of only what you needed). I worked like that when I started with an 18GB NuVista Avid system. But they evolved beyond that in the early 2000s. FCP was a big part of that. My preferred workflow became digitizing entire tapes via machine control while doing other work, and then being able to scrub and log my footage after it was already in the machine. This is certainly not everyone's preferred method, but those versions of FCP never took away the option of capturing "1990's style."

I like the idea of an Event Manager, especially if it would save your settings until the next time you launch. I also do not believe that a folder system and event system couldn't coexist.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 4:17:02 am

If you have a SAN, you can add a SAN location to fcpx and choose to have as many or as few Events/Projects as you want to that location. This allows you to open one project at a time by closing and adding different SAN locations (and they are allowed anywhere in a folder hierarchy, not just root level). I think this will become useful for those that want to figure out Xsan in lion.

Event Manager X is worth every bit of $5 (incidentally, it doesn't work with SAN locations).

You can put folders in folders and keyword collections in those folders. You can't put a keyword in a keyword, though.

Range based organization is a bit different than clip organization, and yes it's different than bins.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 1:39:40 pm

The layout, design and presence of the project browser is the weakest link. You can manage projects through Event Manager or manually, but what about single complex projects where you accumulate 50-100 sequences in a single production? I'm not talking about features. What about spot work? You cut 10 commercials as part of a campaign, but because you have to cut various versions until the client or director locks the cut, you can easily accrue 3-5 versions per commercial. FCP X in its parent form is ill-equipped to handle this.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 2:37:16 pm

[Oliver Peters] " What about spot work? You cut 10 commercials as part of a campaign, but because you have to cut various versions until the client or director locks the cut, you can easily accrue 3-5 versions per commercial. FCP X in its parent form is ill-equipped to handle this."

It can handle it, it's just not as easy as a tabbed sequence system. It's true.

There is the compound clip in the Event situation, but it's certainly a workaround and causes bloat as has been pointed out.

As efficient as the event browser is, the project browser is much more clunky. Even if you could load 3 Projects in a single click it'd be helpful.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 2:41:53 pm

It can handle it, it's just not as easy as a tabbed sequence system.

Have you tried to build up 50 timelines? If so what's the response like?

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 2:50:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Have you tried to build up 50 timelines? If so what's the response like?"

I haven't had 50, but I've had 22 and you're right, it's not fun.

I have hypothesized that when opening new Projects, it actually hides a "loading" process.

So if you have loaded all 50 sequences, it slows down. A quit and restart fixed it until you have eventually reloaded all the different Projects.

I cut spots too. I have also been finding having a bunch of Projects is a bit goofy.

I have been trying to pair down the amount of projects as much as possible by exploring audition clips, or in the case of 30 second spots, just have multiple spots in one Project.

It's certainly a work around, no question.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 3:04:59 pm

So far, what seems to mitigate the initial launch time is to stick all unnecessary projects into folders within the project browser and leave those closed until you need them. I believe it's a RAM or resources issue, since the project browser allows you to skim through any visible projects.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 4:42:21 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So far, what seems to mitigate the initial launch time is to stick all unnecessary projects into folders within the project browser and leave those closed until you need them. I believe it's a RAM or resources issue, since the project browser allows you to skim through any visible projects."

I think we are getting to the same conclusion. When opening a Project, it is loading a lot of data and not just media.

Having flattened, skimmable access to the media is probably pretty "easy", but loading all the data of the timeline (markers, index, Roles, effects, containers) and perhaps building an XML of that takes some time. When you switch Projects, all of that is loaded (my theory, not based in any concrete programming truth or knowledge).

If you have been following Andreas Kiel's subtitle tests, he finds FCPXML to be very slow at the moment, which is odd as he finds it very sparse as well in terms of the information available as well as documentation.

Jeremy


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Rob Mackintosh
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 7:56:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There is the compound clip in the Event situation, but it's certainly a workaround and causes bloat as has been pointed out. "

Would the bloat occur if you had the "project event" only contain sequences i.e referencing media in other events (preferably on a different drive)?

I created two identical sequences (4 clips, cross dissolves, generator, on primary storyline, one title connected) one in a compound clip within an event, the other as a project.
I was adding media from another event. The .fcpproject and .fcpevent files ended up around the same size, and increased by a similar amount as each edit was made.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 8:05:34 pm

[Rob Mackintosh] "Would the bloat occur if you had the "project event" only contain sequences i.e referencing media in other events (preferably on a different drive)?"

Meaning, you kept an Event of just the Project compound clips?

I guess it keeps overall size of any one file down to a minimum but doesn't reduce the cumulative file size. It is treating the symptoms, but not the overall problem.

That's an interesting idea, though. I know you have mentioned this idea of splitting everything up before and it does seem like something that could be done. I would rather see the application get a bit more optimized.

As you and Mark Morache have pointed out, there's no reason for all the duplication of metadata. It seems to me that FCPXML is just not "optimized" at the current time.

Also, this would screw up XMLs, wouldn't it by defining the compounds as a clip/nest rather than a sequence? A lot of these early FCPXML supported do not support compound clips. More testing is needed on that side. If I do use a compound as a sequence, I eventually copy it in to a Project, but maybe that's futile.


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Rob Mackintosh
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 8:32:58 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Meaning, you kept an Event of just the Project compound clips?"

Yes.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I guess it keeps overall size of any one file down to a minimum but doesn't reduce the cumulative file size. It is treating the symptoms, but not the overall problem."

One of the problems being the inefficiency of the FCPX database format when dealing with multiple sequences.

Given the apparent similarities between the .fcpevent and .fcpproject files Apple could easily bring the metadata functions of the event browser into the project library, along with multiple sequences per project. The problem would be the performance.

Apple seem to have forgotten that performance is a feature.

As for screwing up the XML I'm sure someone could write an utility that parsed the event XML and created separate project XMLs for each compound clip.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 9:23:44 pm

What I completely resent in all of this is that none of us has a clue as to what will of will not bloat the Events and Projects folders. Apple is completely unwilling (or so it seems) to generate any sort of best practices tutorials or documentation. They seem to want to rely on the 3rd party training resources. Those are all great at the very basic level, but inadequate for anyone who needs to do something complex with the software. This application is the most unintuitive product they've created in a long while if you want to do more than just slap some cuts together.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 9:31:50 pm

[Oliver Peters] "What I completely resent in all of this is that none of us has a clue as to what will of will not bloat the Events and Projects folders. Apple is completely unwilling (or so it seems) to generate any sort of best practices tutorials or documentation. They seem to want to rely on the 3rd party training resources. Those are all great at the very basic level, but inadequate for anyone who needs to do something complex with the software. This application is the most unintuitive product they've created in a long while if you want to do more than just slap some cuts together."

Well said.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Rob Mackintosh
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 9:45:52 pm

[Oliver Peters] "What I completely resent in all of this is that none of us has a clue as to what will of will not bloat the Events and Projects folders. Apple is completely unwilling (or so it seems) to generate any sort of best practices tutorials or documentation. They seem to want to rely on the 3rd party training resources. Those are all great at the very basic level, but inadequate for anyone who needs to do something complex with the software. This application is the most unintuitive product they've created in a long while if you want to do more than just slap some cuts together."

Very well said.

I'm sick of all the half-assed testing I've had to do to make this software usable.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:06:54 pm

[Rob Mackintosh] "I'm sick of all the half-assed testing I've had to do to make this software usable."

I think Apple simply learned from RED. Buy FCP X and you've signed on to be a permanent beta tester ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:15:11 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I think Apple simply learned from RED. Buy FCP X and you've signed on to be a permanent beta tester ;-)"

It's the way of the Professional electronics world. Firmware updates are not only bug fixes but feature releases that were rolled out as features ready to go.


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:06:45 pm

[Rob Mackintosh] "Very well said.

I'm sick of all the half-assed testing I've had to do to make this software usable.
"


If you don't want major bugs and you want stability, NEVER use a version 1.0 product of ANY software, FCPX is a complete code rewrite, what did everyone expect? It will be at least a year if not more before it reaches even a basic level of maturity.

I'm using it, knowing full well there will be issues, as it happens I think it's surprisingly stable and usable for a first release.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:10:20 pm

[Steve Connor] " FCPX is a complete code rewrite, what did everyone expect?"

I expected it to be more solid than Avid MC 6, which it decidedly is not.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:12:58 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I expected it to be more solid than Avid MC 6, which it decidedly is not.
"

You mean you expected a piece of version 1.0 software to be more stable than a version 6.0 one?

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:17:00 pm

[Steve Connor] "You mean you expected a piece of version 1.0 software to be more stable than a version 6.0 one?"

Version 6 of Avid Media Composer and Symphony is also a from-the-ground-up 64-bit rewrite. It's just that they duplicated the design and interaction models of the existing software. It's definitely new code.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:19:04 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Version 6 of Avid Media Composer and Symphony is also a from-the-ground-up 64-bit rewrite. It's just that they duplicated the design and interaction models of the existing software. It's definitely new code.
"


Good point, if it's correct.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:22:27 pm

[Steve Connor] "Good point, if it's correct."

Huh? I'm running it now. There are a number of differences caused by the change to 64-bit, such as filter compatibility and some of the things tied to QuickTime, which is still a 32-bit engine. So yes, it's correct. Why not poke around on the Avid forums if you don't believe that.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:31:58 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Huh? I'm running it now. There are a number of differences caused by the change to 64-bit, such as filter compatibility and some of the things tied to QuickTime, which is still a 32-bit engine. So yes, it's correct. Why not poke around on the Avid forums if you don't believe that.
"


No, I meant that If it WAS a complete rewrite, which it appears to be. However as I understand it they have been rewriting elements of it for the last couple of versions but only compiling as 32 bit which has given them some extra time to test the code, which is why it's relatively stable.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:34:32 pm

[Steve Connor] "as I understand it they have been rewriting elements of it for the last couple of versions but only compiling as 32 bit which has given them some extra time to test the code"

I believe that's correct. That's still less time than Apple has been working on FCP X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:37:40 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I believe that's correct. That's still less time than Apple has been working on FCP X.

- Oliver"


True, but FCPX is an entirely new piece of software, Avid is new code, but fundamentally the same software.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:41:02 pm

[Steve Connor] "True, but FCPX is an entirely new piece of software, Avid is new code, but fundamentally the same software."

True, but fundamentally there's no difference. One requires QA from scratch. The other requires significant QA to check that the new code still works as it's supposed to. The double-edged sword for Apple is that they are so tightly tied to the OS. Since Apple is very compartmentalized, there are some things ProApps can't do until the OS is ready for them to proceed.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 11:03:25 pm

[Steve Connor] "You mean you expected a piece of version 1.0 software to be more stable than a version 6.0 one?"

I actually expect all the software I buy to be stable.

They still charge for v1.0 products (or v10.0 per the splash screen); it should be merchantable. I understand why it may not be feature complete, but the features that are that really ought to work. Bugs that cause the loss of user data should be squashed before release.

Added onto this is the perception problem: FCPX may be a 1.0 product, but the FCP franchise moved beyond 1.0 ten years ago.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 11:06:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Added onto this is the perception problem: FCPX may be a 1.0 product, but the FCP franchise moved beyond 1.0 ten years ago."

True, it should never have been called Final Cut

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 11:07:28 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I actually expect all the software I buy to be stable. "

Software is one of the few things we buy that is broken and incomplete when we purchase it. Then we pay again for the privilege to have it fixed, only to have more things broken in the process. ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 11:20:32 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Software is one of the few things we buy that is broken and incomplete when we purchase it. Then we pay again for the privilege to have it fixed, only to have more things broken in the process. ;-)"

True.

That's why it always bothers me a little bit when I've boarded a plane and I'm sitting at the gate, and the pilot announces that he's going to shut the power down then bring it back up to try to clear up a problem.

As he's rebooting the plane, I picture Clippy popping up on his HUD. "It look's like you're trying to take off from JFK."

I wonder how many levels of undo Boeing and Airbus have...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 11:28:04 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I wonder how many levels of undo Boeing and Airbus have..."

I was on an ICC high-speed train in Germany a few years ago. They tried to reboot the train to fix an air-conditioning problem. No-Go. Blue screen of death, I presume. We were stranded at that station until the next ICC train came along. Then it was standing room only on that train for the last leg of the trip. So you aren't that far off.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 11:29:26 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Blue screen of death, I presume."

Not literally, I hope.

As annoying a glitch in my software is, I'd rather have my NLE fail than my car.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Rob Mackintosh
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:31:07 pm

[Steve Connor] "f you don't want major bugs and you want stability, NEVER use a version 1.0 product of ANY software, FCPX is a complete code rewrite, what did everyone expect? It will be at least a year if not more before it reaches even a basic level of maturity.

I'm using it, knowing full well there will be issues, as it happens I think it's surprisingly stable and usable for a first release."


I expected bugs, just not quite as many show-stopping ones.

FCP is " surprisingly stable and usable" until it isn't.

I place a title, blade a compound, or add one too many markers and the UI becomes sluggish and the project unstable.

I was an iPad's breadth away from upgrading to a new iMac until I read about people on the latest and greatest hardware having similar problems.

I don't even mind paying to participate in a public beta program but a little more guidance from Apple would be nice.

Compare this with the release of Lightroom, when Adobe ran a free public beta, and I could listen to podcasts featuring Thomas Knoll explaining the intricacies of the exposure algorithm.


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:36:01 pm

[Rob Mackintosh] "I don't even mind paying to participate in a public beta program but a little more guidance from Apple would be nice."

It certainly would, but Apple aren't exactly known for being particularly helpful. I also think the outcry against FCPX seems to have made Apple close themselves down even more

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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James Mortner
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 5:17:45 pm

Just have a "live" events folder and another you call "offline" or something and move the events there when they're done or on hold or whatever

No, I dont want to move files around to stop my NLE seeing them. No ! Naughty !


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 5:25:33 pm

[James Mortner] "No, I dont want to move files around to stop my NLE seeing them. No ! Naughty !"

Using disk images has been working well for me:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/fcp_x_managing_disk_image_martin.html

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!


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James Mortner
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 5:32:59 pm

Interesting ! Still feels like a faff/bodge workaround though ?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 5:46:08 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "Using disk images has been working well for me:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/fcp_x_managing_disk_image_martin.html
"


I mean no offense to anyone (if it's working that's great), and I don't mind the clever research behind this thinking, but this is the weirdest solution that has come out the 2011 NLE "crisis". There is something that just doesn't sit right with me here.

Yes, this was a workaround to get FCPX working on a SAN, but there is now official support in FCPX for SAN workflows.

Event Manger X is a much easier solution that mirrors what is explained in the FCPX manual. And it's only $5.

Again, no offense, but this way is very limiting as you have to set a size right off the bat.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 6:03:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Again, no offense, but this way is very limiting as you have to set a size right off the bat."

From the article:

"One really cool feature of Disk utility is the ability to create what are called "Sparse Disk Images". By choosing this option, if you created a 20 GB image, and only used 5 GB of media, the Disk image would only take up 5 GB on your drive. As you add media to your Event Library, the Disk Image would "expand" to include the additional files (the resulting DMG file would grow larger in size). This way you are only using the Disk Space you need."


Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 6:12:48 pm

[Jason Jenkins] "As you add media to your Event Library, the Disk Image would "expand" to include the additional files (the resulting DMG file would grow larger in size). "

But if you go over 20GBs?


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 6:52:58 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "But if you go over 20GBs?"

I haven't run into that yet, as I make my images with room to spare at the outset. This is what Wikipedia says:

"When the sparseimage file is not mounted, the .sparseimage file may be resized using Disk Utility’s Resize Image function."


I just tested this out and there seems to be a bug with the Resize Image function. It resizes the disk image but not the partition within it, so after resizing, you need to mount the image and go to the Partition tab in Disk Utility and drag the partition out to the full image size. That works, so it's easy to resize the sparse disk image if needed, but it won't automatically expand beyond the original size.

I like having a whole project bundled up in one place. It makes it really easy to move it around, backup and archive it.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 5:33:58 pm

[Bret Williams] "Isn't it pretty easy to manually take events offline?"

[Tom Wolsky] "Get Event Manager X."

[Oliver Peters] "You can manage projects through Event Manager or manually ..."

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have been trying to pair down the amount of projects as much as possible ..."

[Oliver Peters] "I believe it's a RAM or resources issue, ..."

Etc. Etc. Etc.

So, Apple have designed an NLE that will auto-manage tracks, but that requires manual management of memory and the archive on disk.

Franz.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 5:48:10 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "So, Apple have designed an NLE that will auto-manage tracks, but that requires manual management of memory and the archive on disk."

So far.

There are some very strong points to X's media management as well. It is certainly different than other methods.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 7:28:14 pm

Different is.. One word for it...


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 7:57:00 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Different is.. One word for it..."

Yes. I keep bringing that term up (different) because in my view, FCPX is exactly that.

I don't know if it's any better. It certainly is in some aspects for my use, but others aren't there yet, not sure if it will ever be "there".

So, different is the only correct term I can use at the moment.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 8:07:34 pm

Ah no - absolutely, spot on.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 9:26:33 pm

I'm in the middle of what I thought might be a "FCP X baptism by fire" period and I'll share share a bit of my/our sense to date. I've got seven 30 second TV spots and a short promo film in the project browser so far and X loads them pretty quickly, but I'm already concerned about managing events and projects as preloads...definitely moving to Event Mgr X as soon as I get this stuff out.

Still no crashes after several heavy weeks, but the "no undo" bug has got to be fixed immediately. It's bitten me twice. Running out of RAM (16 gigs) obviously undoes the unlimited undo concept, and with no warning of such and no RAM purge, Apple seems to be missing a big WTF issue.

I've been working on some long term heavy editing and design spots and a couple of "gotta be on the air in 48 hours" stuff. X has been great in building different versions and testing looks really quickly, great for TV graphics, very fast assembly for a lot of stuff.

Have had a few, "I really don't want these clips connected to anything" moments that I've had to work around (easily enough).

I guess to this point (maybe a month and a half) I like it more than I don't.

Maybe the most salient point I could make given the short sample time - for something I've been learning on the fly, the work has been done faster than the same if I were working in 7, and with more time to experiment and develop ideas.

So in that regard, for me, that would suggest good things in the future.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 9:31:02 pm

[Jim Giberti] "Running out of RAM (16 gigs) obviously undoes the unlimited undo concept"

The "undo stack" is limited to 500 items. It is not unlimited. That number comes straight from Apple. But yes, the bug is inexcusable.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 9:45:56 pm

The thing is Oliver, there's no way there were anything like 500 undos associated with either project that had the issue. I don't make that many mistakes .


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 9:50:23 pm

The undo list is whatever you have done in the application; every step (except for a few) that you do get added to the undo list.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:06:13 pm

yikes.

A good "top of the list" thing to address if you've removed the Command-S option.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:05:29 pm

[Jim Giberti] " I don't make that many mistakes"

It's not mistakes. Make an adjustment in an effects parameters, that's 1 undo. Make another, now that's 2 undos. And so on.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:11:03 pm

No, I get that Oliver, I was kidding. But it's not funny that Apple removed the ability to save a project and replaced it with a sloppily conceived auto save concept with very serious limits.

Got to be fixed quickly.
That doesn't work for any level of editor.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:15:01 pm

[Jim Giberti] "replaced it with a sloppily conceived auto save concept with very serious limits. Got to be fixed quickly."

I don't believe they will. Look at the other current Apple software under Lion, such as Pages/Numbers/Keynote/TextEdit. There is no Save/Save As. There's an initial Save A Version and Duplicate. I believe the FCP X design is very consistent with that.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:16:30 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I don't believe they will. Look at the other current Apple software under Lion, such as Pages/Numbers/Keynote/TextEdit. There is no Save/Save As. There's an initial Save A Version and Duplicate. I believe the FCP X design is very consistent with that.
"


Exactly, apart from they stupidly haven't actually implemented "versions" yet

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:28:31 pm

[Oliver Peters] "
I don't believe they will. Look at the other current Apple software under Lion, such as Pages/Numbers/Keynote/TextEdit. There is no Save/Save As. There's an initial Save A Version and Duplicate. I believe the FCP X design is very consistent with that"


But how can that possibly work?

Any serious project has, literally, countless steps. Are fcpX editors supposed to keep a note pad or calculator running while editing, or just play the lottery that when they accidentally cut that 12 hours of work and realize there's no way to redo the mistake?

It's like developing the new generation of fighter jet and replacing the radar and GPS with a big magnetic compass - easy to use but a bit too risky for critical missions.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:32:20 pm

[Jim Giberti] "Any serious project has, literally, countless steps"

The design isn't that you stop after 500 undos. It's SUPPOSED to be the LAST 500 undos. If it works correctly, then the oldest is flushed out. Same as the 99 undos of FCP 7. As far as steps and versions, you need to duplicate your project for alternate or in-progress versions.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:44:27 pm

[Oliver Peters] "
The design isn't that you stop after 500 undos. It's SUPPOSED to be the LAST 500 undos. If it works correctly, then the oldest is flushed out. Same as the 99 undos of FCP 7. As far as steps and versions, you need to duplicate your project for alternate or in-progress versions."


But you realize that it doesn't work as it's "supposed" to right?

It doesn't keep any undo reserve.

I didn't have to duplicate anything in 7 AND I had a Save and Save As function.
Simply, if you taketh that away, you'd better give a professional something as good or better, not the potential for disaster.

There's no way to know when it's going to shut down, no monitor , no gauge, no flush as there is with Motion.
It's a bug.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:49:03 pm

[Jim Giberti] "But you realize that it doesn't work as it's "supposed" to right?"

Agreed. Although I haven't personally run into the problem since I upgraded to OS 10.7.2. and FCP 10.0.2.

[Jim Giberti] "I didn't have to duplicate anything in 7 AND I had a Save and Save As function."

Different functions. Duplicate Sequence in FCP 7 = Duplicate Project in FCP X. There is no "project" file anymore like you had in FCP 7. This is an old and nonexistent concept.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 10:55:56 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Different functions. Duplicate Sequence in FCP 7 = Duplicate Project in FCP X. There is no "project" file anymore like you had in FCP 7. This is an old and nonexistent concept"

Hey Oliver, We're doing a lot of work in X so, of course, I understand the paradigm.

My simple point is that if I can't Save a project I need to know that the little man that Apple decided would do that for me is actually doing it and not getting drunk at the local bar (I have employees for that).

We did, in fact, lose a lot of work on two occasions when X's autosave failed and had to do Time Machine recoveries - literally the only option.

That ain't professional development.


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 11:01:36 pm

[Jim Giberti] "My simple point is that if I can't Save a project I need to know that the little man that Apple decided would do that for me is actually doing it and not getting drunk at the local bar (I have employees for that).

We did, in fact, lose a lot of work on two occasions when X's autosave failed and had to do Time Machine recoveries - literally the only option.

That ain't professional development."


I'm sure when they finally implement "versions' this will solve the problem, hopefully with the next release

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX the Othello of NLEs?
on Dec 5, 2011 at 11:02:39 pm

[Jim Giberti] "We did, in fact, lose a lot of work on two occasions when X's autosave failed"

I wasn't trying to talk down. I completely agree that it's a bug that needs to be fixed ASAP. I am surprised that the TM actually had anything. Shouldn't this have been the same saved version as you were actively working on? In other words, how can TM have something that wasn't in your active project? If that in fact is the case, it seems to indicate a far worse problem than it would appear.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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