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Bill Davis
Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 8:57:47 pm

The Cow's own Richard Harrington was quoted in an Apple Insider story today indicating that...

"There was a Final Cut Pro 8, and it was 64-bit and it was done," Harrington said. "And they looked at it and said, 'This is not what we want to do. This is evolutionary, this is not revolutionary.' And they killed it."

Don't know about the dependability of the Apple Insider sources - but I bet it's going to make a lot of folks here really, really grumpy if this is ever confirmed.

Yikes.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Paul Dickin
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 9:43:40 pm

Hi
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/21564
-----Quote-----
My comment is taken out of context.



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Phil Hoppes
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 9:44:24 pm

A personal experience:
This is not really quite the same but who knows, maybe it is similar. In my previous life (career) I designed integrated circuits. Those marvelous chips that go into all the gadgets we love to use. About 10 years into my career there was a major shift in how these were designed. Initially, chip designed mirrored the way an electronic circuit board was designed. The tools existed to do that task and they were simply adapted to the needs of chip design. As manufacturing kept doubling what we could put into a chip about every 18 months, we reached a point where there was simply too much information to deal with in the short amount of time required to do the task at had. A fundamental shift in tools and methods came about where chips ceased to be designed like circuit boards and the industry shifted to designing chips much in the same manner that software was designed. This removed the designer from the lower level tasks but allowed the designer to work at a much higher level of abstraction, which in turned, allows for much faster turn around in the design of large and complicated systems.

We may be seeing the same type of fundamental shift in the video editing industry as a whole as, once again, technology has significantly lowered the barrier of entry to making your own movie, allowing a significantly larger user base of movie makers, who simply won't follow the previous traditional methods used to create a movie. They want to work with more media, do it faster and do it cheaper.

I'm probably full of it, but time will tell.

......

and on a side note, as a designer and manager, I first resisted the change to the new "methodology" with amazingly similar arguments as presented here about FCPX. My company only needed to get it's "Clock Cleaned" once by a competitor who used the new method to blow our doors off on a new product release and I rapidly saw the errors of my way.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 10:06:33 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "We may be seeing the same type of fundamental shift in the video editing industry as a whole as, once again, technology has significantly lowered the barrier of entry to making your own movie, allowing a significantly larger user base of movie makers, who simply won't follow the previous traditional methods used to create a movie. "

This technological breakthrough happened in video post about 10 years ago. 64 bit is an upgrade, but hardly revolutionary. FCPX is different in it's approach, but not enormously cheaper, faster or better (if at all better.) I don't see any fundamental shift, unless you too think shooting movies with an Iphone is the way to go.

It's been many years since the barrier to making movies has been the cost of cameras or NLE's.

[Phil Hoppes] "They want to work with more media, do it faster and do it cheaper. "

As the old saying goes "faster, better, cheaper - you can have any two out of the three."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 11:05:26 pm

[Herb Sevush] "This technological breakthrough happened in video post about 10 years ago. 64 bit is an upgrade, but hardly revolutionary. FCPX is different in it's approach, but not enormously cheaper, faster or better (if at all better.) I don't see any fundamental shift, unless you too think shooting movies with an Iphone is the way to go.

It's been many years since the barrier to making movies has been the cost of cameras or NLE's. "


Herb,

You keep saying this over and over again, but it's missing the point. It didn't matter if there were technological changes 10 years ago or 50 years ago. What matters is the one happening right now.

If, 10 years ago, desktop tools had supplanted professional video editing processes in such a way that the work migrated en masse away from traditionally skilled editors and to a new class of young digital professional - then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The truth is that 10 years ago the new digital production tools replaced the traditional tools in the hands of the traditional editors.

Today, that transition has happened down at the casual user level.

You didn't have a generation of kids with BetaCams, or even DSR series cameras running around. You DO have a generation of kids today with 5dMkIIs or the like. And a laptop. And editing software.

That's why, respectfully, today is NOT 10 years ago no matter how many times you'd like to re-cycle that particular argument.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 11:20:55 pm

[Bill Davis] "Today, that transition has happened down at the casual user level.

You didn't have a generation of kids with BetaCams, or even DSR series cameras running around. You DO have a generation of kids today with 5dMkIIs or the like. And a laptop. And editing software. "


And, iMovie and FCE were serving them quite sufficiently, and probably still are. Where are the purported legions of kids you speak of above? Are they flocking to FCPX?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 1:32:37 am

[David Roth Weiss] "And, iMovie and FCE were serving them quite sufficiently, and probably still are. Where are the purported legions of kids you speak of above? Are they flocking to FCPX?"

David,

They are those dog trainers, small restaurant chefs, young women with a flower design business who are NOT calling a "video production service" to put their products and services on the web. They are doing it themselves.

It's no different from all the zillions of people taking their own photos to sell their goods via ebay.

Once upon a time, they'd need a pro photographer to do their "catalog" - but times changed and the "catalog" changed with it.

Yes, there are still catalogs out there - and great pro photographers doing that work - but for every catalog quality photo there are probably 1000 "do it yourself" phototograhers doing a similar job at a functional level for smaller purposes

And every one of those "second tier" photos and video makers are getting better at it every month.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 1:36:59 am

[Bill Davis] "And every one of those "second tier" photos and video makers are getting better at it every month."

That is absolutely not true, the ones getting better at it are a rarity; which is not surprising because it's not their field of interest.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 1:54:12 am

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "And every one of those "second tier" photos and video makers are getting better at it every month."

That is absolutely not true, the ones getting better at it are a rarity; which is not surprising because it's not their field of interest."


Then we disagree, Herb.

In my experience, I'm nearly always at least a little better the second time I do anything, no matter if it's something I enjoy or something I merely tolerate.

Heck, when I'm doing the freaking dishes (a thing I'm not particularly skilled at nor love) I still find myself breaking down the process to see if I can make it even a bit easier the next time.

Maybe I'm just weird that way. But I've met very few people in my life who do things over and over and never improve at all in their execution.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 3:10:02 am

[Bill Davis] "Maybe I'm just weird that way. But I've met very few people in my life who do things over and over and never improve at all in their execution."

A friend of mine is a head hunter in the IT field. When desktop publishing was getting started he dove right in and began doing newsletters and re-doing resumes with his new toys. The results were horrid - never used one font when he could use five, no sense of design, a total mess. And he never got better. How could he, there was no one to critique him, no one to train him, no way for him to know what he didn't know.

I know producers that go out and shoot material that I would've been ashamed of when I was twelve. They've never studied photography, they hand their material to an experienced editor who fixes everything they screw up, and there's no way they're getting any better at it.

If your selling ice skates on Ebay there's little incentive to improve your camera skills beyond the ability to get an acceptable shot - you don't make more sales if the skates are backlit nicely.

As for your dishwashing skills, I'm assuming your trying to get it done either faster or cleaner, and being a young whipersnapper you just haven't figured out that it's your wife's job, not yours (ah, for life in the "leave it to beaver" days.)

If there's no incentive to improve, and no interest in the work, it is the rare person who gets much better at it. I've been doing my own laundry for almost 40 years and I'm no better now than I was
then - it's a boring chore, clean is clean and I don't give a shit.

Hell, it's the rare person who get's much better when there is a reason.

So maybe you are weird that way, and good for you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 2:11:46 am

[Bill Davis] "They are those dog trainers, small restaurant chefs, young women with a flower design business who are NOT calling a "video production service" to put their products and services on the web. They are doing it themselves."

When desktop publishing hit, it actually expanded the market for design, creating opportunities on the low end where none existed before. Prior to desktop publishing, design was only available to large companies with in-house designers or deep pockets for agencies. WIth the arrival of the LaserWriter, smaller businesses without these resources could suddenly have designed collateral that they were doing without before.

Like Aindreas said, desktop publishes were doing flyers -- they were not doing Fortune 500 annual reports.

Video was simply not a cost-effective option for dog trainers, small restaurant chefs, and flower designers before. They certainly weren't calling agencies before. They probably weren't calling mid-tier production companies or even one-man-band freelancers. They are not lost sales or even lost opportunities; they are new video users coming in on the low end of the market.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 2:21:51 am

[Walter Soyka] "They probably weren't calling mid-tier production companies or even one-man-band freelancers. They are not lost sales or even lost opportunities; they are new video users coming in on the low end of the market."

And in "bottom up" revolutions it always starts that way.

In this generation, the small shop owners won't take the plum jobs from the "priests." But the sons and daughters of those folks likely WILL. Because it's been a part of what they've grown up watching.

It's Gladwell's Outliers writ large. It's seldom the "first generation" folks who break out and transform industries - it's their kids who leverage those formerly inaccessible (for all but the elite) skills who transform whole industries.

We shall see.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 4:07:38 am

[Bill Davis] "It's Gladwell's Outliers writ large. It's seldom the "first generation" folks who break out and transform industries - it's their kids who leverage those formerly inaccessible (for all but the elite) skills who transform whole industries."

Outliers was a book about exceptional high achievers whose hidden advantages, combined with hard work and learning, allow them to excel.

I don't see how this relates to casual video communicators. The great, broad middle are, by definition, not outliers.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 7:00:33 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Outliers was a book about exceptional high achievers whose hidden advantages, combined with hard work and learning, allow them to excel.
"


That was one theme. I think the larger one was that when you have a large mass of people who have access to new tools and technologies, the pool of individuals who can enter and excel grows.

One primary story in Outliers if you recall, was how Bill Gates "luck" in having his mom on the school committee and in a position to get "time share" on a terminal that let Gates gain experience with computers earlier than his peers. Yes, he had the brainpower and talent, but it was also ACCESS to the technology that drove his career.

Same brainpower - no access - and Bill Gates is probably a successful guy, but not the worlds richest guy.

Now you have literally a MILLION people gaining video editing experience. So the group who will take it seriously and excel will come from a much broader pool than before.

The opportunity migrates from the sons and daughters of the "elites" in the TV biz or in Hollywood, to the sons and daughters of anyone. That's change. And pretty much the definition of "democratization."

Nothing more than that.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 7:52:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "One primary story in Outliers if you recall, was how Bill Gates "luck" in having his mom on the school committee and in a position to get "time share" on a terminal that let Gates gain experience with computers earlier than his peers. Yes, he had the brainpower and talent, but it was also ACCESS to the technology that drove his career.

Same brainpower - no access - and Bill Gates is probably a successful guy, but not the worlds richest guy.

Now you have literally a MILLION people gaining video editing experience. So the group who will take it seriously and excel will come from a much broader pool than before."




I think where you and Gladwell differ is how you define excellence. You seem to be suggesting that there's an absolute standard, but outliers by definition are measured by a relative standard against the group as a whole. If everyone could run a four-minute mile, it wouldn't be special. The outlier would be someone who could run a mile in three minutes.

Gates is an interesting example. Look at all the millions of people who have had increased access to and experience with computers since him. The world is not suddenly full of people who have had his kind of impact, in part because it wasn't Gate's absolute access that mattered. His relative access -- the fact that very few others had the kind of access that he did -- was the source of his advantage.

As an aside, I think the absolute approach you seem to be advocating doesn't account for progress. You're looking at the legions of people on the bottom end of the market with new access to tools who are now able to execute the fundamentals of the craft -- but you're ignoring the people on the top of the market who are currently advancing the state of the art.

I'm not saying that the people coming in on the bottom of the market will never grow; I am saying that they don't have the kind of unique advantages Gladwell believes drive outperformance. Democratization and outperformance are unrelated concepts.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 8:56:07 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think where you and Gladwell differ is how you define excellence. You seem to be suggesting that there's an absolute standard, but outliers by definition are measured by a relative standard against the group as a whole. If everyone could run a four-minute mile, it wouldn't be special. The outlier would be someone who could run a mile in three minutes.

Gates is an interesting example. Look at all the millions of people who have had increased access to and experience with computers since him. The world is not suddenly full of people who have had his kind of impact, in part because it wasn't Gate's absolute access that mattered. His relative access -- the fact that very few others had the kind of access that he did -- was the source of his advantage"


I would also add that Gates' early computer access--or for that matter, Steve Jobs coming of age at the epicenter of computer industry--is in no way an analog with what's happening with FCP X. Cheap editing has been around for well over a decade, and NLE ownership is only one small part of film/video making. For that matter, camera access is only a small part of the process. Over the last two decades, this has gotten a lot easier, and people like Richard Rodriguez have prospered well. But good film and video still takes hard work. Putting training wheels on a low-priced NLE is just NOT akin to giving someone early access to a world-changing power that few others have access to.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 10:28:55 pm

[Bill Davis] "
The opportunity migrates from the sons and daughters of the "elites" in the TV biz or in Hollywood, to the sons and daughters of anyone. That's change. And pretty much the definition of "democratization."
"


right because editing is a closed royal family. You're funny Bill. And I think you have issues with editing in a weird way. Also - why do you think half the world is champing at the bit to edit eh? haven't they got other things to be doing?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 2:49:08 am

[Bill Davis] "
They are those dog trainers, small restaurant chefs, young women with a flower design business who are NOT calling a "video production service" to put their products and services on the web. They are doing it themselves.

It's no different from all the zillions of people taking their own photos to sell their goods via ebay.

Once upon a time, they'd need a pro photographer to do their "catalog" - but times changed and the "catalog" changed with it.

Yes, there are still catalogs out there - and great pro photographers doing that work - but for every catalog quality photo there are probably 1000 "do it yourself" phototograhers doing a similar job at a functional level for smaller purposes

And every one of those "second tier" photos and video makers are getting better at it every month.
"


sheer brilliance again bill - you are shining with a special light now.

why does anyone need to aspire to the craft of anything? I can be a moron with an excel sheet right right? I don't know excel sheets but that's no problem yes? I should build dams Bill. Or maybe I'm a bicyclist and I can be a trucker right? Why don't I try to put up brick walls? I'll pick it up won't I?

WHO NEEDS PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO DO THINGS REALLY?

Bill, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart - your arguments are awful with regard to the reverence and furtherance of specific human skills.

I'm just sorry you weren't an architect, and then we could have some real fun with the production of our buildings.

your arguments are the worst bill - they are literally the worst.

they denigrate any craft and any skill.

Your arguments are a complete and total disgrace.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 7:41:24 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "sheer brilliance again bill - you are shining with a special light now.

Excellent, good to see you're focused on critiquing peoples ideas rather than their personalities! :)


why does anyone need to aspire to the craft of anything? I can be a moron with an excel sheet right right? I don't know excel sheets but that's no problem yes? I should build dams Bill. Or maybe I'm a bicyclist and I can be a trucker right? Why don't I try to put up brick walls? I'll pick it up won't I?

WHO NEEDS PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO DO THINGS REALLY?

Bill, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart - your arguments are awful with regard to the reverence and furtherance of specific human skills.

I'm just sorry you weren't an architect, and then we could have some real fun with the production of our buildings.

your arguments are the worst bill - they are literally the worst.

they denigrate any craft and any skill.

Your arguments are a complete and total disgrace.
"



Okay then.

You know, maybe you are right - and I am wrong. What say we do a test. Let's outlaw amateurs!

We can get committees together to decide who's "good enough" to do stuff. And nobody else can play. Will that be OK?

If you're not a concert level pianist, you shouldn't be allowed to own a piano. If the art jury says you can't draw - no pencils for your home.

You think my argument is "awful?" Pot, kettle, dude.

Here's why.

That you can't tell the difference between the construction of a publicly occupied building where human lives are at risk - and a freaking VIDEO production - then you have larger issues than we can address here.

Here's your view in a nutshell, Andreas...

If someone isn't totally, fully professional in everything they do - to your arbitrary standard - they are nothing - and they shouldn't even try.

BS, dude. Total BS.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 10:26:39 pm

ok, because I'm lazy I'll put up the reply I gave you in the below thread - we were talking about much the same stuff, and it puts across my point of view pretty well, your quotes are from the thread below this, but it works OK as a reply here.

-----


look bill, relative to this debate forum, my reply is that this is bad software made for the wrong reasons.

Histrionic defences of epochal change in technology and social organisation do not alter that fact.

[Bill Davis] "And next to them you'll find a camcorder. A TV set. And a laptop computer that shipped with free editing software.

If you can't see the change represented by that - you might explore whether you possibly have some "Industry-insider" blinders on.
"


I see the the same things Bill - but I'm not going ga-ga over it. As I said - you're proposing the same kind of casual skills usage popularised by the desktop publishing explosion. Anyone could make a badly designed flier as a result, now they can make a badly produced ad for the dog kennel, as I believe your original example posited. Good luck to them. Thats fine - it allows them to make low utility stuff that they would have had to pay for - that's dandy.

On the other hand you have the british director of... monsters was it called? pushed the whole thing out of the adobe suite. Got enormous acclaim and attention. And this after an astonishing track record with the beeb pushing out unbelievable post for historical docos.

So those are two things bill right - they are both dependent on transformative tool dissemination change. means, price and processing power.

my point is that we have seen this, in a very measurable way, before. People disinterested with typography remained disinterested by typography thirty years later. Kerning is not tabloid conversation. This is a craft Bill - I need to get this through to you. common society is not going to explode in a napalm fire of excitement at the sight of three point editing - even if apple has made a morons special mittens versions of it in X.
they could care less Bill - they have other things to do. In point of fact, a certain thrust of this argument almost has a weird form of craft narcissism to it.

What I find quite seriously annoying in the FCPX debate is the exceptionalism applied to this software - its just bad software bill. Its buggy, bloated, its undo's are unstable, the project file mutates in size at a whim, large projects are a no-no, the colour corrector is a joke, the plug-in architecture is brain damaged.

And yet people surround this software with grand transformative arguments that it does in no way deserve.

This just isn't particularly good software Bill, and in order to effect it, Apple had to kill an awful lot of very good software.


[Bill Davis] "
But the huge change is the human expectation of ***access***
"

seriously? - and i'm getting snarky - but seriously - what? Its just editing software Bill - badly conceived and executed editing software.

It's not the singularity.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 2:18:58 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "What I find quite seriously annoying in the FCPX debate is the exceptionalism applied to this software - its just bad software bill. Its buggy, bloated, its undo's are unstable, the project file mutates in size at a whim, large projects are a no-no, the colour corrector is a joke, the plug-in architecture is brain damaged.

And yet people surround this software with grand transformative arguments that it does in no way deserve.

This just isn't particularly good software Bill, and in order to effect it, Apple had to kill an awful lot of very good software. "


I know that's your often expressed opinion. I think you're almost totally wrong.

Some of that is provable. Because I (and other editors increasingly) in nearly daily use find it to be stable, useful, interesting, and even exciting to explore.

I actually think it's is precisely exceptional software. Because it embodies the willingness to try something different. And difference is, by definition, exceptional. You may HATE that difference. But that could possibly be your own overly-turgid thinking in play, sir.

If it was ORDINARY - like it's four major competitors - it couldn't possibly make anyone so angry. Nobody gets their feathers so ruffled because of something ordinary. So you, yourself, are kinda de facto proof of it's very exceptionalism!

The difficult truth for you is that I, as well as an increasingly large number of others, find the problems that you are so incensed about to be other than "mission critical." They would only be worth getting so incredibly pissed about if all editors had the same needs and wants. But we don't. A fact that you seem to be absolutely unwilling to open your eyes to see.

So given this "perception gulf" between your view and mine, it appears that either I'm a complete idiot and extremely shortsighted - or YOU are.

If your view holds sway, then people like me are just absolute idiots who willingly face the constant plague of disasters — day in and day out — and yet are simply too stupid to notice them.
If you are correct, then in a year, FCP-X will be gone and nobody much will be using it. Precisely because your wild conjectural contentions would be enough to send ANY editor away from any piece of software.

On the other hand, if FCP-X doesn't "disappear" then you have to face the fact that it's actually not "us" who are shortsighted, it's you.

And I'd be careful holding to that view too firmly. A dozen people on this very board are using it handily to deliver paid work - sure some have issues - no V1 software excapes them. But the voices appear to be increasing that people who increasingly understand the software, also increasingly appreciate it.

And your real problem, Andreas, is that even if every single thing you allege is true, FCP-X with the resources behind it still has every chance of turning out to be the SeaBiscuit of NLEs - the dismissed runt thats too small, too ill-bred, not "pedigreed" enough for the editing "country club" set - right up to the point that it proves to be a wildly superior horse for the real world of racing.

Time will tell, won't it.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 12:42:44 pm

God Bill, you kill me, you really do

[Bill Davis] "And difference is, by definition, exceptional. "
you need to look up the old dictionary there Bill, because that definition really is amazingly wrong.

Annywaaay, where were we,

[Bill Davis] "You may HATE that difference. But that could possibly be your own overly-turgid thinking in play, sir."
No, I'm just of the opinion that it is poorly crafted software, made for the wrong reasons.

[Bill Davis] "If it was ORDINARY - like it's four major competitors - it couldn't possibly make anyone so angry. "
Hahahaha. No, dearest bill, but if it was somewhat crappy in execution and filled to brim with useless, reductive timeline metaphors, It sure could annoy a few people.

[Bill Davis] "The difficult truth for you is that I, as well as an increasingly large number of others, find the problems that you are so incensed about to be other than "mission critical." "
Oh its a harsh truth Bill - you and the other enlightened souls evangelising this software are unconcerned with the old let me see what did I cite again..

Its buggy, bloated, its undo's are unstable, the project file mutates in size at a whim, large projects are a no-no, the colour corrector is a joke, the plug-in architecture is brain damaged.


sure whaaat? would any of that stuff be mission critical? unstable undo, mutating project crippling project file size?
SURE WHATS THE PROBLEM THERE LIKE????? NAY PROBLEM AT ALLLLL...

you kill me, Bill, I swear.

[Bill Davis] "They would only be worth getting so incredibly pissed about if all editors had the same needs and wants. "
who wants to undo? or have a stable project file? Who needs all that old fashioned nineteenth century horse drawn cart obselete functionality? I'll tell you who Bill - its those evil royal editors in their gilded cages of high level employment - you know the ones Bill, we've whispered about this before - the evil twenty thousand so-called professionals working in documentary drama and film. Its those romanovs Bill - they're the only ones who care.

We'll get them some day Bill, you me and the woman cutting her vet practise ad in FCPX when it doesn't crash, fail playback or grind to a halt. You me and her Bill - we are going to change the world with FCPX - WE WILL MAKE IT ANEW.

sorry - lost the run of myself there a little - where were we...


[Bill Davis] "
If your view holds sway, then people like me are just absolute idiots who willingly face the constant plague of disasters — day in and day out — and yet are simply too stupid to notice them. "


I'm afraid to say anything here.


[Bill Davis] "And your real problem, Andreas, is that even if every single thing you allege is true, FCP-X with the resources behind it still has every chance of turning out to be the SeaBiscuit of NLEs - the dismissed runt thats too small, too ill-bred, not "pedigreed" enough for the editing "country club" set "

This is where I fell off the chair laughing - so.. then,,, to translate Bill - what you are saying is that even if I'm right, and FCPX is a poorly conceived badly executed crock of software - it will and should win because of the brutish power of Apple, and that the ends will justify the means because it will get at the hated "Editing Country Club crowd"

COUNTRY CLUB CROWD? who are you - Rodney Dangerfield??? Were you beaten up by a professional editor as a child Bill? you really have some issues here - its ok if you need to talk about that, really it is.

God almighty...

[Bill Davis] "given this "perception gulf" between your view and mine, it appears that either I'm a complete idiot and extremely shortsighted - or YOU are."

Bill, that right there? that is you, nail and head.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 4:52:59 pm

also, for anyone who doesn't get the rodney dangerfield reference - why haven't you watched Caddyshack? Is there something wrong with you?

here then is an actor dramatising Bill, invigorated by FCPX POWER, in a confrontation with horrible snooty professional editors, those meanies who have always looked down on him - here, he gatecrashes one of the dinner dances at the "Exclusive Editors Country Club Set Club House Of Exclusive Editing and Dining For Exclusive Gilded Editors - Home Produced Vet Ads and The Lower Orders Need Not Apply"

here is a short excerpt.








http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 5:59:56 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "here then is an actor dramatising Bill, invigorated by FCPX POWER, in a confrontation with horrible snooty professional editors, those meanies who have always looked down on him - here, he gatecrashes one of the dinner dances at the "Exclusive Editors Country Club Set Club House Of Exclusive Editing and Dining For Exclusive Gilded Editors - Home Produced Vet Ads and The Lower Orders Need Not Apply""

I always know I'm on the right track with an argument when someone responds with the "classic video clip" gambit.

After all, personal mockery is pretty much the classic fallback position when a person starts to figure out they have a really bad argument.

I actually would have gone with the Ted Knight character, rather than Dangerfield - probably because while each are accomplished at levels nobody here is likely to ever attain, Dangerfield was vastly more charming in his role than Knight was in his.

But whatever.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 6:02:08 pm

come on bill.

the editing country club set?

seriously?

I'm not mocking you - I'm ridiculing your position Bill.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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tony west
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 2:21:33 pm

Bill, I think you also have to factor in one thing..........the camera.


While you can get X for 300 bucks (still a lot for many people) you still need a good camera.

They are not going to drop 10K on an EX 1 to do one dog grooming video a year.

Even if they get a Canon D it's over 2 k. Just not cost effective yet.

Also they don't know how to shoot and don't want to. Too much work for them to rent lights and sound.

Even Ad agencies who now cut themselves don't want to shoot because they know how much work it is.

Try flying your stedi cam on a windy day and making it look smooth take after take.
They don't want no parts of it : )

It's the shooting Bill.

If you shoot crap it doesn't matter what you have to cut it with.

Most people want it to look good but at a cost they can afford.


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 7:10:31 pm

[tony west] "It's the shooting Bill.

If you shoot crap it doesn't matter what you have to cut it with."


Tony,

With great respect I'll note that when I talk to lighting guys, it's the lighting.

When I talk to sound guys, it's the audio.

When I talk to shooters, it's the shooting.

When I talk to editors, it's the cutting.

This is natural, sensible, and a bit, perhaps, short-sighted.

They are all correct. It's all of those and more. The tough thing is to understand that as much as we all want to focus on how "critical" our conribution might be, each view has a bit of tunnel vision.

I think it's fair to say that this forum is largely populated by people working (loosely) in editorial. With a few specialists tossed into the mix such as yourself.

Your "on the ground" insights are invaluable, but every bit like mine, they're colored by where you are and what you see. My views have "exactly" the same spin.

What makes this board so valuable is not that we all think the same, it's that by sharing, we can all learn from multiple perspectives.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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tony west
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 3:53:44 am

I hear you Bill,

But I include all those things when I say shooting (lighting sound and such)

I wouldn't show up to shoot something with no sound and lights.

My point remains, most mom and pop places can't do all that themselves yet. Still cost too much.

I think a lot of new folks can use the program though and will like it.

I don't really think people who never shot or edited for their business will jump out there just because X came out.

Many people outside of the biz never heard of X : )


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 12:48:40 am

[Bill Davis] "You keep saying this over and over again"

Because I believe it to be true.

[Bill Davis] "The truth is that 10 years ago the new digital production tools replaced the traditional tools in the hands of the traditional editors.
Today, that transition has happened down at the casual user level."


Once the digital tools were available, the entrance bar dropped. You can look at forums from 5 to 7 years ago, even before Youtube existed, and find Avid editors crying that their livelihoods were being taken away by a bunch of kids with HDV cams and FCP laptops. This did not start last year. It has accelerated, like everything else in the digital era, but literally nothing significantly new, other than the rebirth of 3D (ugh), has happened in the past year or two in video post - things have evolved and grown but in video post we are still in the beginning phases of a radical change that started about 10 years ago. Distribution has changed much more so, but call me when the cable networks start going out of business, and then we'll talk about radical changes in media.

[Bill Davis] "You didn't have a generation of kids with BetaCams, or even DSR series cameras running around. You DO have a generation of kids today with 5dMkIIs or the like. And a laptop. And editing software. "

No, you had a bunch of kids with HDV cameras and FCP Express or Premiere or whatever they could find. Before that, in the 60's you had me shooting stop motion animation with my father's super 8 camera.

I love the democratization of media. I'm glad it's accelerating. I don't see this year as a big technical watermark year. It's been a big year for news media and cat videos.

The kids that are out there do not do what I do, and I don't do what they do. Someday they might be able to work for me, and if so, then I'm glad for the increase in the talent pool. Someday I might work for them, it's all good. But Iphones do not a revolution make, although they are great for recording one when it happens.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 4:34:12 am

[Herb Sevush] "Iphones do not a revolution make, although they are great for recording one when it happens."

great line, Herb!

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Phil Hoppes
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 11:51:10 pm

10 years ago and nothing has changed?

Hmm.... somehow I missed the 8Mb 1080p HD video I could shoot with my Motorola Flip Phone and Netscape must have had YouTube buried somewhere along with the thousands up thousands of people making videos and a means of communicating. I know... I must have been the only person using 56Kb dial up modems and everyone else had broadband. Along with everyone else must have been recording to dirt cheap 32Gb EE Flash drives while I was still using tape.

The only point I was trying to make is, I personally witnessed before, first hand, when a major shift in market and technology came together to radically change how I worked. I made the mistake of dismissing it completely that time and I was very wrong. I see a world today where people are making movies funded by donations collected on line (Iron Sky). Distribution of video and film content are shifting radically. FCPX is not quite the game changer in NLE as Verilog compilation was to making chips but at the 100,000 ft level, in just the 5 or so years I've been working in this field I think things have radically changed.

Like I said, I may be full of it but I would not be so quick to dismiss things simply because it's new. For example, for the life of me I don't understand the fascination with FB and Twitter, but I recognize that it is THE medium of choice for communication with the younger generation. I don't need it to support my customer base, but if I did, I'd be using it and using it a lot, whether I liked it or not.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 12:26:27 am

[Phil Hoppes] "10 years ago and nothing has changed?"

That's not what I said. A tremendous amount has changed in ten years, but I don't think a tremendous amount changed between April and July of last year. Youtube wasn't invented last year. Cheap HD cameras weren't invented last year. FCPX isn't a revolutionary product. The revolution started 10 years ago and we are still somewhere in the beginning of it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Richards
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 9:52:55 pm

[Bill Davis] "Don't know about the dependability of the Apple Insider sources - but I bet it's going to make a lot of folks here really, really grumpy if this is ever confirmed."

AppleInsider has a pretty spotty record. On one hand, they pretty much nailed the FCP rumors leading up to X (looking a lot like iMovie). On the other hand, they said Apple was going to kill the Mac mini. Besides, if this is the article you are referring to, they are just quoting Arrington's comments from the now infamous video (now pulled) that fcp.co and Cult of Mac posted a few days ago.

This kind of thing can't be confirmed, because it would take someone from the Pro Apps team like Richard Townhill or Steve Bayes or Pete Steinauer or whoever breaking ranks and airing that kind of dirty laundry. Not gonna happen unless one of those guys wants an easy exit from Apple.

I still like Philip Hodgetts' hypothesis, that FCP7 was going to be the 64-bit FCP, but that had to be scrapped when Apple did a 180 on 64-bit Carbon back in 2007 prior to releasing Leopard. So FCP7 lost who-knows-what features that would have been in early development and the Pro Apps team were forced to look at rewriting everything from scratch. That also neatly explains the relatively thin new feature list of FCP7. If that is all true, one could reasonably picture a juicy morsel like "Apple had a 64-bit FCP and had to kill it" making its way through the game of telephone to become "Apple had a 64-bit FCP8 and decided to kill it".

Best,
Andy


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 10:21:20 pm

[Andrew Richards] "So FCP7 lost who-knows-what features that would have been in early development and the Pro Apps team were forced to look at rewriting everything from scratch."

Didn't they face something like this when they moved from OS9 to OSX?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Richards
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 10:50:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Didn't they face something like this when they moved from OS9 to OSX?"

Yeah, you'd think they would know how to handle a transition smoothly...

I don't think there is any disagreement anywhere that they really botched that aspect.

Best,
Andy


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 11:12:03 pm

[Andrew Richards] "I don't think there is any disagreement anywhere that they really botched that aspect."

Not so sure about this.

I heard more than one source I know on the west coast say things like "pulling the band-aid off fast" when describing the idea that once the strategic decision was made, there was no real benefit to Apple spending much time trying to smooth the feathers of those who weren't going to like it.

I'm not actually sure there was EVER a way to soften the blow to so many at the rarified pro end of the spectrum who so gleefully bought into the value proposition of FCP-Legacy - most often later, rather than earlier - and were knocked then off stride when it was EOL'ed.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Andrew Richards
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 12:54:45 am

I'll agree that the band-aid explanation is certainly a plausible characterization of Apple's intent, but I don't think it constitutes praise for how the transition was handled. Have you heard anyone opining that Apple did this the right way? That they didn't screw up by pulling off the band-aid?

Best,
Andy


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 1:25:19 am

But Andrew, what would you suggest as a better way?

Once Apple decided to EOL legacy and move on, what possible better path could they have taken to make people "feel better" with a decision that was going to cause such disruption?

Would it have been better if they'd sent us each an iTunes gift card or written us all personal letters?

It was GOING to be a PR disaster in the pro community, not because of the handling - but because of the reality of the decision to go in a new direction.

At some point, it's kinda like a girl or boyfriend deciding to move on to someone new. No matter what words you say or how you try to soften the blow, in the end, someone's going to feel bad. The key reality is that Apple isn't anybody's boy or girlfriend, they're a business. They are supposed to do what's best for the business. They have to weigh any negative press against a vision of a future where they feel they can improve their business through developing products and solutions that will enable their clients to move forward.

I'm a "just grit your teeth and pull the damn thing off" guy when it comes to band-aids.

I respect other approaches. But this fits for me.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Andrew Richards
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 3:04:15 am

That's just it. The decision to suddenly EOL FCP7 in the face of a big change was the PR disaster that didn't need to be. Any seasoned Apple observer would have expected Apple to handle such a big change with the kind of finesse we saw with OS 9 to OS X, with PPC to Intel, even with iMovie HD to iMovie '08. The outcry was "I can't do my work on X, it simply lacks the features I need". The missing features were the source of the rage. Apple knew it was leaving a hole in its product and did nothing to ramp their user base to their Next Big Thing. They had always shepherded their users in the past. It was a shock that they didn't do it this time.

Perhaps they ultimately regretted their handling of the iMovie shift and didn't want to repeat it. Maybe they foresaw leaving FCP7 out there as a tacit admission the FCPX wasnt worth trying. We don't know. Perhaps this time next year all this sturm und drang will seem silly in the face of an FCPX that has rapidly matured and is being embraced much more than today. Or maybe Apple burned too many bridges and will assume the sort of reputation that Premiere has been struggling mightily to shed the past five years. I'm rooting for the former, but I wouldn't bet more than a beer on it.

Best,
Andy


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Mitch Ives
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 3:03:05 pm

[Andrew Richards] "I still like Philip Hodgetts' hypothesis, that FCP7 was going to be the 64-bit FCP, but that had to be scrapped when Apple did a 180 on 64-bit Carbon back in 2007 prior to releasing Leopard. "

I've thought that all along. The abrupt canceling of 64 bit Carbon caught Adobe by surprise and resulted in a long delay before 64 bit CS finally arrived on the Mac... after Adobe had to start over and redo everything in Cocoa. Given Apple's secretive approach and lack of communication, it isn't hard to see the FCP team (a small and largely ignored group) getting caught in the same way.

When this announcement was made, I predicted that this was going to delay any meaningful updates to FCP. I sure would have liked to have been wrong on that one...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 10:15:43 pm

[Bill Davis] "I bet it's going to make a lot of folks here really, really grumpy if this is ever confirmed."

As one of the grumpier grumps around, I can tell you that it means nothing to me at all. Whether they completed a 64 bit FCP8 or not isn't the issue, what they chose to release is the issue.

Even if the story is totally bogus does that mean they couldn't build a 64bit FCP8 tomorrow if they wanted too? It's Apple's strategy and marketing approach that pisses me off, I could care less what they might have done and when they might have almost done it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Lemur Hayop
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 10:41:59 pm

MacRumors picked it up, with lots of angry comments.

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/11/30/apple-scrapped-completed-64-bit-final-c...


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Nov 30, 2011 at 11:31:23 pm

One clear lesson.

In the days of global interconnectedness - it's valuable to remember that what say and write and post in public - even in kinda closely targeted forums like the one that Richard Harrington was originally addressing - it's all to easy to light a word fire that can spread far and wide.

I don't think he did a thing wrong or even anything that I haven't been equally guilty of - so I feel bad for him, because I've been in similar circumstances speaking or writing my opinions in a group setting, only to find someone interpreting my words in ways I had not expected - and suddenly, it's spreading everywhere and there's no good way to "unring" the bell.

It's kinda like ALL of us who blog or write opinion based posts in open forums such as this are being schooled by the big bad world to give more weight to the journalistic traditions of solid sourcing, and keeping that fence between opinions and facts in good repair.

That's probably a good thing in the long run.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 1, 2011 at 11:15:51 pm

{Bill Davis} - "It's kinda like ALL of us who blog or write opinion based posts in open forums such as this are being schooled by the big bad world to give more weight to the journalistic traditions of solid sourcing, and keeping that fence between opinions and facts in good repair."

Pity some never seem to learn a thing from that experience.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 2:24:13 am

Marvin,

As someone who wrote on deadline for a national circulation magazine for more than a decade - the absence of an editor and a staff of "fact checkers" makes "learning" a whole different process in my opinion.

In this brave new world, it's largely self-correct and self-learn.

Which is hard. No question about it.

But awareness of any issue is the first step to improvement, I suppose.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 4:04:50 pm

[Bill Davis] - "But awareness of any issue is the first step to improvement, I suppose."

Oh Irony.... you are a cruel mistress.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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walter biscardi
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 2, 2011 at 7:58:51 pm

[Bill Davis] "The Cow's own Richard Harrington was quoted in an Apple Insider story today indicating that...

"There was a Final Cut Pro 8, and it was 64-bit and it was done," Harrington said. "And they looked at it and said, 'This is not what we want to do. This is evolutionary, this is not revolutionary.' And they killed it.""


Quote is out of context, there never was a Final Cut Pro 8. Development on Final Cut Pro X goes back a few years. A 64 bit version of what we know as Final Cut Pro 7 was never made.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
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Biscardi Creative Media

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Ben Scott
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 3, 2011 at 5:35:21 pm

this whole forum back and forth is pretty unpleasant

for those moaners get over it

use the other software and stop wining about what you perceive you dont have any more

for bill
I agree with you on lots and think you have made a lot of valid point.
I wouldnt even have engaged this idea of fcp8 (or rumour from someone).

for Aindreas
well done you proved yourself to be as unpleasant a character as ever


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 3, 2011 at 8:46:15 pm

[Ben Scott] "this whole forum back and forth is pretty unpleasant"

Perhaps you missed the fact that this forum is about "the debate," and back and forth is typically the nature of any debate. If you want everyone to agree with you, that's simple, find a different forum. But, don't demand that others do so.

[Ben Scott] "for bill
I agree with you on lots and think you have made a lot of valid point."


That's no surprise, since you favor only those who agree with you and only see those points as having validity.

[Ben Scott] "for Aindreas
well done you proved yourself to be as unpleasant a character as ever"


Disagreeing with you makes him an unpleasant character to you. Many of us actually find him very, very funny, and he certainly provides great counterpoint to Bill's rhetoric, which is hilarious in its own way.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

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Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Insider says FCP 8 was DONE when they killed it? WOW.
on Dec 4, 2011 at 9:54:30 pm

ah come on Ben - this forum is, by name and definition, a debating forum. there should be nothing unpleasant or wrong about boisterous debate?

It's debate. there are rules, and if we do not adhere to them, I can really tell you that the cow will and does slap us down.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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