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Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?

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Johnny Martin
Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 9:42:30 pm

First off I know this is not necessarily the best place for this thread but Apple's recent actions makes me wonder if we are on the verge of a new era for Apple. One where pro-users will be dumped completely in favor of the more lucrative consumer market?

First came Lion with it's IOS looks and promises of unleashing all of our CPU's power. Well if you're like me and did the stupid mistake of upgrading to it, you probably have been running into all kind of troubles with proapps on this OS. FCP became unstable, Motion is now a nightmare (mine crashes the moment I think about using it!), using MOTU's Digital Performer is precarious and so on... And I won't even start listing all the applications that just stopped working altogether because they're just not compatible with the OS :-(

Next Apple released FCX (which is, to say the least, an ongoing debate) and immediately sent FCP to the garbage with all the support and forums it hosted on it's site superseding it with FCX as if the other versions never existed. Personally I don't think FCX will ever become a viable production environment solution for motion picture editors working on large projects, but that's just me. Anyhow, after the FCP community screamed and torched all of the forums and reviews they could find Apple reluctantly brought it back on "special order"... But knowing it's defunct and will never be upgraded makes me wonder why anyone would shell out 1000$ for it?!? Isn't it like buying a hummer when you know it's just never going to be built in the future???

And now this ongoing rumor that the beloved MacPro might just as well suffer the same fate!!! If you didn't know Apple might not be upgrading it at all and if they do it's likely it will be only to become the end of the line for MacPro's. Apple's argument is that consumers prefer laptops and mobile devices and MacPro users don't represent enough market shares to justify keeping the line. It's quite obvious a MacPro is not for the average users, heck most of them have enough processor power in their IPhones to fulfill all of their needs. Apple also seems to think that laptops offer enough power to run everything including FCX. I guess the bunch at cupertino believes editors will prefer using those over the large and heavy MacPros, or maybe everything is now going to be done with an IPad (why not ? You can film and edit right on it !!! ) who knows...

So when I look at all of this I wonder, is Apple really heading towards dropping all of it's professional customers who want and need more than an IPad or a Laptop???? The same bunch that have been there buying Apple workstations to run their proapps right from the start, before they made billions with consumer products, really ?

I guess will find out soon enough....


Finally I'd just like to point out that I pondered this question while doing a clean install of Lion and partitioning my drive for snow leopard in the hope of getting back a stable Final Cut Pro system :-/ and yes Apple I did it on an IPad2 but it doesn't mean I want to throw my keyboard away!!!!


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John Davidson
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 10:15:48 pm

We just built a very unprofessional Core i7 iMac system with Lion, 16gb RAM, a Promise Pegasus 12tb. Compared to our similarly spec'ed out 8 core, the iMac is much faster. Compared to our current generation 12 core Mac Pro with 64 gb ram and 16tb mini-sas RAID, the iMac also wins at most tasks.

Beef up the iMac a little more and I won't miss the Mac Pro at all. Maybe they'll call it an iMac Pro. Not really feeling abandoned.


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Johnny Martin
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 27, 2011 at 10:25:08 pm

What are you running for software ? FC (x) or (p) ?

Any special hardware (aja, decks, etc) ?


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Rob Mackintosh
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 1:07:11 am

If there is a market, and they can do something innovative, why leave the money on the table?

Nothing in Greg Joswiak's recent talk on focus, simplicity, courage(?) and being the best precludes the development of a new workstation.

This excerpt from the FxPlug 2.0 SDK Overview is enlightening:

Users of Final Cut Pro X are looking to solve specific tasks rather than to apply particular effects. In general, you should avoid publishing long lists of parameters that are likely to confuse users and make completing their tasks harder rather than easier.
Advanced users who need more control will be able to either open your Final Cut Effect in Motion and edit it themselves, or create their own Final Cut Effects within Motion for their specific task. Remember, less advanced users will be overwhelmed by filters that are too complex and won't generally need to control every parameter in a given filter.


Same goes for hardware. The current iMacs can be a workstation or home PC or a kiosk.
Motion is to FCPX what Thunderbolt accessories are to the iMac.

I'm sure there are advanced users pushing the iPad and iPhone to their limits.
They'll take the high and low end user if they can get them, and with the minimum number of products.

I expect a "reinvention of the workstation" sometime in the next couple of years.
Just don't be surprised if it's branded Mac Mini Pro.


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John Davidson
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 4:00:34 am

CS5, FCS3, & FCPX. The raid is fast. We have decks, but use the other rooms to lay back and digitize with. If we needed to though, we could get the Blackmagic Thunderbolt thing. Still getting used to a single monitor, but two 27's on the 12 core feels too wide, so I don't think it's a big deal.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Paul Jay
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 8:27:09 am

Hdsdi in/out + uncompressed Hd over thunderbolt on imac or mac mini. Thats current apple reality.

Define ' pro ' technology please?


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Chris Kenny
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 6:14:39 am

Lion has been pretty rock solid for us, in heavy use on a Mac Pro that processes dailies and does client-supervised grading sessions in Resolve. Incompatibility with new OS versions is a longstanding issue, on all platforms, and it's kind of silly to try to attribute this round of it to Apple somehow neglecting pro users.

With respect to the Mac Pro, my guess is there's going to be at least one additional revision once Intel has new Xeons (though there's now some doubt, perhaps, about whether Apple will use Sandy Bridge E5 or Ivy Bridge E3, as they might be coming out at about the same time, and the latter, while only single socket, is probably going to be faster for typical desktop workloads).

18 months after that, who knows? Eventually, towers are going to fill the market niche presently occupied by refrigerator-sized computers, or perhaps the desk-side SGI workstations some high-end creative pros used in the '90s. At some point before then, Apple is going to stop making them, probably a couple of years before many people are really comfortable with that.

The truth is, iMacs and laptops really are becoming suitable even for high-end video work. Today's MacBook Pros deliver similar CPU performance to 2008 Mac Pro towers, and Thunderbolt enables access to high-speed external storage and video I/O devices that previously would have required PCIe slots. Professional editing, even in uncompressed HD, is now very viable on MBP/iMac, and if Apple offers an Ivy Bridge mini that has both dedicated video and is quad core (right now you have to choose), that will be in the running as well.

We online indie feature films, mostly shot on Red and Alexa. A significant fraction of these films are primarily being edited on editors' laptops. About the only thing we do that still strictly requires a tower is color grading, and it's not hard to see that even that won't be true anymore in two or three years.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 10:18:40 am

And what's the advantage of all that?
You get an iMac for 2.000 dollars. Then a TB Raid enclosure for 6 drives that will set you back another 1.800 (the same amount of drives you can easily fit into a proper modern workstation), two TB expansion chassis to have 4 pci slots (running at a 25 per cent speed), another box for video io and another one for dual-link ethernet. And possibly another one for...
So, you end up with up with 5 external boxes or more that have sit within a three meter range from your machine. Same cost, same size, same price, more clutter and a lot less performance than a modern workstation. And GPU and multiple monitors didn't even come into play here.
And when I say "modern workstation" I don't mean the current Mac Pro with it's outdated architecture.
It's a horrid scenario I certainly won't persue.
I'd have to replace all the tried and tested gear that simply works, has zero compatibility issues, is backwards compatible with older machine and cross platform - buy everything again at a premium price to get 70 per cent less performance. Brave new world.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 3:16:46 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "You get an iMac for 2.000 dollars. Then a TB Raid enclosure for 6 drives that will set you back another 1.800 (the same amount of drives you can easily fit into a proper modern workstation), two TB expansion chassis to have 4 pci slots (running at a 25 per cent speed), another box for video io and another one for dual-link ethernet. And possibly another one for..."

More realistically, you buy a Thunderbolt RAID enclosure and a Thunderbolt video I/O interface, and that covers most pro video work. Maybe add a RedRocket in an external Thunderbolt PCIe enclosure if you're working with that format. The Thunderbolt RAID is more expensive than internal storage, but probably cheaper than external SAS storage, and the Thunderbolt video I/O interface is probably the same price as a PCIe card serving a similar function. Either of these devices is far easier to move between machines within a facility, or bring on set, both of which are useful capabilities. And if being used with a laptop, there's a lot of flexibility here. For instance, you can keep your online footage on an external RAID, with offline proxies on your laptop's internal drive. Now you've got a solution that lets you edit sitting in the park if you feel like it, but can turn into a fairly serious online editing machine by plugging in a single cable at your desk.

[Frank Gothmann] "And when I say "modern workstation" I don't mean the current Mac Pro with it's outdated architecture."

Err... current Mac Pros are using Intel's latest. It's not actually Apple's fault (or a signal of neglect on Apple's part) that Intel now seems to update its dual-socket workstation offerings last within a given processor generation. Actually, that's probably Intel responding to some of the same forces that cause people to speculate about Mac Pro cancelation -- high-end towers really are becoming increasingly niche items, and, in particular, dual socket machines are less necessary as the number of cores on each CPU (and general single processor performance) keeps rising.

[Frank Gothmann] "It's a horrid scenario I certainly won't persue. "

You might not "peruse" it, but in five years -- certainly in ten -- I'd be surprised if it weren't just taken completely for granted. Pros used to routinely buy $10K+ systems just to run Photoshop, back in the days when 80 MB was a huge amount of RAM. These days, phones have way more RAM than that, and this typical Photoshop work is so easy for modern hardware that nobody thinks anything of pros in that field working on laptops. As hardware performance continues to increase, video will inevitably end up in the same place.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 3:40:53 pm

[Chris Kenny] "More realistically, you buy a Thunderbolt RAID enclosure and a Thunderbolt video I/O interface, and that covers most pro video work. Maybe add a RedRocket in an external Thunderbolt PCIe enclosure if you're working with that format. The Thunderbolt RAID is more expensive than internal storage, but probably cheaper than external SAS storage, and the Thunderbolt video I/O interface is probably the same price as a PCIe card serving a similar function. Either of these devices is far easier to move between machines within a facility, or bring on set, both of which are useful capabilities. And if being used with a laptop, there's a lot of flexibility here. For instance, you can keep your online footage on an external RAID, with offline proxies on your laptop's internal drive. Now you've got a solution that lets you edit sitting in the park if you feel like it, but can turn into a fairly serious online editing machine by plugging in a single cable at your desk."

No, external SAS is cheaper, faster and much more expandable. I posted about this earlier.
Also, I need shared storage for some machines, 10Gig Ethernet and Fibre for others. TB Expansion is PCIe 4x, so half the performance you get from a modern Raid, Fibre or 10Gig Controller.
AJA's forthcoming TB solution only handles 8-Channel audio which is useless to me. I need 12 so I need a Kona 3.
I don't want to move any devices in the facility. That's the whole point of shared storage. And we don't edit or do any other work on Laptops.
If you do, great. I don't want to take either your Laptop or TB away. But I need and want PCIe and a tower. If it's not on a Mac we'll go elsewhere.


[Chris Kenny] "Err... current Mac Pros are using Intel's latest. It's not actually Apple's fault (or a signal of neglect on Apple's part) that Intel now seems to update its dual-socket workstation offerings last within a given processor generation. Actually, that's probably Intel responding to some of the same forces that cause people to speculate about Mac Pro cancelation -- high-end towers really are becoming increasingly niche items, and, in particular, dual socket machines are less necessary as the number of cores on each CPU (and general single processor performance) keeps rising."

You are talking about CPU. I don't. I am talking about no GPU variety, speedier PCIe (currently 1x16, 1x8, 2x4, it should be 16,16, 8,8) and preferably more slots, shared Firewire bus is a joke, no Esata and, yes, a TB port for the sake of it.

[Chris Kenny] "You might not "peruse" it, but in five years -- certainly in ten -- I'd be surprised if it weren't just taken completely for granted. Pros used to routinely buy $10K+ systems just to run Photoshop, back in the days when 80 MB was a huge amount of RAM. These days, phones have way more RAM than that, and this typical Photoshop work is so easy for modern hardware that nobody thinks anything of pros in that field working on laptops. As hardware performance continues to increase, video will inevitably end up in the same place."

I don't care what might be in 5 or 10 years. I need to run a business today.
You are talking about editing. Again, I don't. Try running 4k DPX files off your TB raid on a laptop for film restauration and let me know if one or two weeks difference in render time matter to you and your business.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 4:08:08 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "No, external SAS is cheaper, faster and much more expandable. I posted about this earlier."

This has not really been my assessment when a good controller is factored in, particularly with Mac-compatable controllers.

[Frank Gothmann] "TB Expansion is PCIe 4x, so half the performance you get from a modern Raid, Fibre or 10Gig Controller."

Err... huh? You appear to be assuming that since PCIe cards that support those things are sometimes 8x, they actually require that bandwidth. But that's not actually the case. Thunderbolt's has two full-duplex 10 Gbps channels. That's a total external bandwidth of 2500 MB/s. And higher-end iMac models have two independent ports. This is significantly more bandwidth than is required by e.g. 10 GbE.

[Frank Gothmann] "AJA's forthcoming TB solution only handles 8-Channel audio which is useless to me. I need 12 so I need a Kona 3. "

You're essentially going down a list of edge cases here. Perhaps it's possible that Thunderbolt is useless to you, but it's entirely suitable for the vast majority of pro video work. You're not really complaining about Apple abandoning the pro video niche here, but about Apple supposedly abandoning a niche within that niche.

Blackmagic's UltraStudio Pro Thunderbolt interface does 16 channels of audio over HD-SDI, incidentally. There's no Thunderbolt-related limitation in play here; your complaint seems to be with the production features AJA has chosen to include.

[Frank Gothmann] "I don't care what might be in 5 or 10 years. I need to run a business today."

We're talking about Apple's future product decisions. Today, the Mac Pro is still on sale, and I'd be quite surprised if it didn't receive an update in Q1 2012.

[Frank Gothmann] "Try running 4k DPX files off your TB raid on a laptop for film restauration and let me know if one or two weeks difference in render time matter to you and your business."

Even most Hollywood feature films are not being finished at 4K. You are, again, not really talking about pro video editing here, but about a niche within a niche. 4K DPX is effectively the only format that Promise's Thunderbolt RAID can't handle in real-time, and Thunderbolt itself actually is fast enough for 4K DPX on paper.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 4:28:58 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Err... huh? You appear to be assuming that since PCIe cards that support those things are sometimes 8x, they actually require that bandwidth. But that's not actually the case. Thunderbolt's has two full-duplex 10 Gbps channels. That's a total external bandwidth of 2500 MB/s. And higher-end iMac models have two independent ports. This is significantly more bandwidth than is required by e.g. 10 GbE."

We get a good 800 Mbs throughput with our SAN, 1.300 with individual SAS Raids. The 6-drive TB enclosure peaks at 550 Mbs as various benchmarks show. So, it is substantially slower then other solutions. These are real-world tests and easily verifiable. The theoretical bandwith is of no use to me.

[Chris Kenny] "You're not really complaining about Apple abandoning the pro video niche here, but about Apple supposedly abandoning a niche within that niche."

I am complaining about "less choice". We are talking about three small raid boxes atm compared to dozens and dozens of options. Same for video io, other connectivy etc. Give me TB but don't drop PCIe.

[Chris Kenny] "Blackmagic's UltraStudio Pro Thunderbolt interface does 16 channels of audio over HD-SDI, incidentally. There's no Thunderbolt-related limitation in play here; your complaint seems to be with the production features AJA has chosen to include."

Again, I am talking about "less choice". If TB only is the future I'd have exactely ONE product to go with. Great!
Most of theTB stuff isn't cross platform so... all the work that requires windows via bootcamp. Need to buy it all again plus another windows workstation.


[Chris Kenny] "You are, again, not really talking about pro video editing here, but about a niche within a niche."

Yes, I am. So? That's the kind of work that I do. This threat isnt called pro video editing but pro users. A 6000 dollar workstation obviously isn't a mass market product but for a niche. And if Apple doesn't want to serve that niche anymore... let people know so they can move on.

[Chris Kenny] " 4K DPX is effectively the only format that Promise's Thunderbolt RAID can't handle in real-time, and Thunderbolt itself actually is fast enough for 4K DPX on paper."

This wasn't even with regards to TB but with regards to Apple dropping dual-cpu towers. How would you want to work and render such files? On an iMac, your Laptop or on a cluster of dual-cpu workstations? That's a serious question, please answer it.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 4:55:07 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "I am complaining about "less choice". We are talking about three small raid boxes atm compared to dozens and dozens of options. Same for video io, other connectivy etc. Give me TB but don't drop PCIe."

This is a consequence of Thunderbolt having been on the market for a very short period of time. It has essentially no relevance to the subject being discussed, namely whether high-end towers will continue to be necessary for professional video production in the future.

[Frank Gothmann] "This wasn't even with regards to TB but with regards to Apple dropping dual-cpu towers. How would you want to work and render such files? On an iMac, your Laptop or on a cluster of dual-cpu workstations? That's a serious question, please answer it."

I'm not disputing that there are still some tasks better performed on towers, but I think people are overstating the extent to which this is actually necessary. It is, objectively, largely not necessary for any task you were performing prior to the last couple of years, because, as noted previously, today's MacBook Pros are about on par with 2008 dual processor Mac Pros, and only really ~30% slower than today's base-model 8-core Mac Pro.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 5:30:12 pm

[Chris Kenny] "This is a consequence of Thunderbolt having been on the market for a very short period of time. It has essentially no relevance to the subject being discussed, namely whether high-end towers will continue to be necessary for professional video production in the future."

Sure it does. When a company repeatedly drops features and flexibility from its soft- and hardware in favour of what they think might one day become a standard then such company is a liability for any business and I won't play along. I want to decide what workflow and what hardware works best for my needs, I don't want or need Apple bullying me into this.

[Chris Kenny] "It is, objectively, largely not necessary for any task you were performing prior to the last couple of years, because, as noted previously, today's MacBook Pros are about on par with 2008 dual processor Mac Pros, and only really ~30% slower than today's base-model 8-core Mac Pro."

That statement doesn't make sense. I want to get things done quicker and faster today on top of getting them done at all. If I can save 40 per cent render time by using a tower today then that's a of money saved stretched out over a year or two, regardless of wether a 40 per cent longer render time was normal and acceptable years ago.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 6:51:10 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Sure it does. When a company repeatedly drops features and flexibility from its soft- and hardware in favour of what they think might one day become a standard then such company is a liability for any business and I won't play along. I want to decide what workflow and what hardware works best for my needs, I don't want or need Apple bullying me into this."

Apple has not yet canceled the Mac Pro, and by the time they do, there will be more Thunderbolt devices on the market.

[Frank Gothmann] "That statement doesn't make sense."

It does in the context of people talking about Apple "abandoning pro users altogether". That implies Apple selling only machines that pro users couldn't plausibly use to get their work done, not just machines that are a bit slower than what they could be offering (but still faster than what anyone was using to do that work a year or two earlier).

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 4:49:00 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "And what's the advantage of all that?
You get an iMac for 2.000 dollars. Then a TB Raid enclosure for 6 drives that will set you back another 1.800 (the same amount of drives you can easily fit into a proper modern workstation), two TB expansion chassis to have 4 pci slots (running at a 25 per cent speed), another box for video io and another one for dual-link ethernet. And possibly another one for..."


I was wondering about the display cards. The release of FCPX had tower owners out buying new display cards for compatibility. Can you swap display cards in an iMac these days... didn't use to be able to, which meant scrapping the entire iMac. That would be a rather expensive difference between an iMac and a tower?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Chris Kenny
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 7:07:01 pm

[Mitch Ives] "I was wondering about the display cards. The release of FCPX had tower owners out buying new display cards for compatibility. Can you swap display cards in an iMac these days... didn't use to be able to, which meant scrapping the entire iMac. That would be a rather expensive difference between an iMac and a tower?"

You still can't upgrade the graphics. Though external GPUs via Thunderbolt might be viable. (Yeah, it's only 4x, but if you look at GPU benchmarks with cards in slots of various speeds, this matters less than you might think.)

But anyway, an iMac probably costs half as much as a tower. Just buy a new one twice as often, sell the old one, and you'll almost certainly come out ahead vs. trying to keep a tower twice as long and buying upgrades for it along the way.

And if you're the sort of person who needs a laptop, a MacBook Pro is certainly a lot cheaper than a MacBook Pro plus a Mac Pro. You can probably afford to replace the MBP three times as often if you quit buying Mac Pros as well and just use the laptop for everything, which has now become remarkably viable.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 11:53:47 am

[Chris Kenny] "The truth is, iMacs and laptops really are becoming suitable even for high-end video work."

Totally true. Autodesk is pushing Smoke on Thunderbolt iMacs and laptops [link].

You used to need a workstation just to get the throughput necessary for video I/O. Not anymore; computers have been following Moore's law (roughly stated, doubling in power every 18 months) while the HD spec has been unchanged since the 1990s.


[Chris Kenny] "About the only thing we do that still strictly requires a tower is color grading, and it's not hard to see that even that won't be true anymore in two or three years."

There are a few areas in our field that are processor- and bandwith-intensive: animation, mograph, effects, and compositing. Anyone doing these sorts of work will always benefit from the fastest machine available.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 5:58:30 pm

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/11/stale-mac-pro-lineup-has-pro-user...

The natives are getting restless...Apple have already thrown a lot in the trash bin.


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Bill Davis
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 7:45:34 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/11/stale-mac-pro-lineup-has-pro-user...

The natives are getting restless...Apple have already thrown a lot in the trash bin."


Saw that in Ars nearly a month ago and it instantly reminded me that this whole discussion of "dumped the pros" is like deja vu.

I heard the EXACT same things when I tried to talk folks into giving FCP V1 a try back at the end of 2000.

I've learned to take all the "it's NOT for PRO use" talk with a huge grain of salt since I've watched countless times as the market decided that something totally inadequate for "professional" work - swept the market and eventually became the darling of the same pros who dismissed it most loudly upon inception.

Off the top of my head...
DV vs Beta-cam
Laserwriters vs Linotronics
H4ns vs Nagras
LEDs vs HMIs

Clearly I'm NOT saying that the former is superior to the latter. (in most cases, the exact opposite is clearly true.) I'm saying that the VALUE PROPOSITION of the former created an income stream so significant that the marketers of the former eventually BECAME the companies who were healthy enough to continue to advance and grow and move their products firmly into the professional space.

If the "laptop lines" are the production lines humming in the manufacturers plants around the world - it just stands to reason that they resources are going to go there first.

Personally I'd LOVE to see Apple ZAG once again while the market keeps ZIGGING and introduce some new component-able building block monster desktop array that lets you pick and choose the blocks you need right up to the bleeding edge. That makes a LOT more sense to me than building heavy blocks of (albeit beautifully milled) aluminum that cook away under the desk and are a kind of a hassle to transport, connect, and upgrade.

I'm doing end of year cleaning in the studio, and I just came across a big box of about 2 dozen AppleTalk boxes and maybe 150 feet of attendant cable. I also know that there's probably 200 feet of various signal and power cables in service to the Audio/Computer/Cinema Display and NTSC monitors around the system I'm typing this on.

It seems SO old fashioned when compared to my MacBook Pro that does nearly everything the MacPro does, but without all the attached crap.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 8:41:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "I've learned to take all the "it's NOT for PRO use" talk with a huge grain of salt since I've watched countless times as the market decided that something totally inadequate for "professional" work - swept the market and eventually became the darling of the same pros who dismissed it most loudly upon inception."

I think we should make a distinction between "suitable for professional use" and "built for professional use." iMacs, which Apple used to explicitly position as the consumer line, are the former; Mac Pros, which contain features and technologies that are ridiculous overkill for both consumers and now many professionals, are the latter.


[Bill Davis] "It seems SO old fashioned when compared to my MacBook Pro that does nearly everything the MacPro does, but without all the attached crap."

This is where the discussion gets personal and we must all stop speaking in generalities.

You may be able to do nearly everything on your MacBook Pro that you do on your Mac Pro. I am not able to do nearly everything on my MacBook Pro that I do on my Mac Pro, though. Since Thunderbolt can't help me add RAM or processing cores, it won't anytime in the future, either.

You're probably doing mostly video editorial; I'm doing mostly animation, motion graphics, and compositing at larger-than-HD resolutions. We have different goals, different workflows, and different needs.

Chris Kenny is right when he says that most people who used to need a Mac Pro don't need one anymore. Frank Gothmann is right when he says that some people cannot get their work done on an iMac as well as they can on a Mac Pro. I think they both agree that the workstation market among video pros is a shrinking niche, though they seem to differ on their opinions about whether Apple should cater to that niche.

In other words, if you're an editor, chances are that you just plain don't need a workstation anymore, and an iMac or laptop with Thunderbolt expansion will meet all your needs nicely. However, this does not mean that there's no one in the video industry who would still be willing to pay for more power on the desktop.

The question of Apple abandoning "pro" users is still germane for anyone who can't reasonably get their work done today on "consumer" hardware.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Bill Davis
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 1:22:56 am

[Walter Soyka] "You're probably doing mostly video editorial; I'm doing mostly animation, motion graphics, and compositing at larger-than-HD resolutions. We have different goals, different workflows, and different needs."

Granted, Walter.

But one of the "keys" here is which is the question the broadest market needs answered?

Walter, I want you to have the solutions you need. I even want you to have an array of choices on how you solve your needs. But (and it's a HUGE "but") - I don't want you to have those solutions if giving those to you means that every single company that makes the solutions has to limit their thinking to how they are going to meet your needs. Because your needs are niche needs. And it's a shrinking niche.

I actually think that is how innovation gets stifled.

And looking back, you have to admit that the very company that used to be the "outlier" in editing - Apple, eventually re-invented and re-popularized the field to the point where the industry got a LOT healthier. (Remember the cost of an AVID system compared to a FCP rig back in 2006 or so?) that "popularization" led to development - and to the high end migrating to and using the same tools that the industrial and "resume movie" makers largely paid to develop.

So while FCP-X may do nothing for you right now. If it catches fire over the next few years, It is GOING to drive innovation across the industry in ways that I simple don't think it's competitors can do.

And in ways that those competitors CERTAINLY can't do if they have to keep their focus on a shrinking (albeit high end) market such as episodic TV and feature shops.

In this economic environment where the economists have been saying "grow or die" for a decade - I'd like to know how PPro or AVID stand to "grow" when they can't really offer something that the middle or the low end wants? Are there enough seats at the top of the heap to drive a profitable editing software development industry? I certainly hope so, but I'm concerned.

Their "base" isn't growing. It's shrinking. Everyone at the bottom can get free editing tools. In the middle, there's FCP-X at $350 a seat (with Motion) and there are a few players at the top end fighting for the seats in the commercial editing shops.

That's a pretty scary scenario for editing as an industry.

I just think it's time to be very careful out there.

Flux happens. And we're in the middle of a big one.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 3:24:13 am

Nice post, Bill -- an interesting new twist on the conversation.

I'll preface my response with these basic statements:

Apple is having a wildly successful run in the consumer space, where they have delivered huge innovations by throwing out the rules, ignoring past conventions, and re-imagining existing product categories.

Apple used to cater to creative professionals, but this is a niche, and there is certainly more growth potential for them in the mass market. I fully expect that they will "support" professionals in the future to whatever extent professionals are able to integrate Apple products in their businesses. I doubt they will actively develop for creative professionals with complex needs they way they used to. This is more or less the same "suitable for professional use" versus "built for professional use" distinction I outlined in my first post.

I don't blame Apple for not being interested in serving my niche needs anymore. They are following the money in broader, lower-margin markets, and doing very well. It's just business.



[Bill Davis] "But one of the "keys" here is which is the question the broadest market needs answered?"

This doesn't have to be the question, but it's the direction Apple has chosen. They are trying to offer their product relatively cheaply to as large a market as possible.

Another equally valid approach is to tailor a much more targeted offering to a much smaller potential market -- but selling with higher margins. If Apple takes itself out of competition in some of these niches by not offering needed features, Adobe and Avid would be free to raise their prices (which already reflect a premium over FCPX's new low, low price). Apple is only a dangerous competitor if they are able to radically undercut for comparable value, as they did with FCP Classic -- but given the intangible good will they've burned in some circles, they will have hard time offering comparable perceived value even if/when they get the feature set up.



[Bill Davis] "Walter, I want you to have the solutions you need. I even want you to have an array of choices on how you solve your needs. But (and it's a HUGE "but") - I don't want you to have those solutions if giving those to you means that every single company that makes the solutions has to limit their thinking to how they are going to meet your needs. Because your needs are niche needs. And it's a shrinking niche. I actually think that is how innovation gets stifled."

Bill, I don't think the whole industry should be driven by my specific needs any more than I think the whole industry should be driven by the "broad middle" and democratization you've espoused. Fortunately, we have a functioning market that is doing a great job of ensuring all of our needs are met at various price points and on various platforms.

I can't understand your suggestion that innovation gets stifled by trying to build better mousetraps for demanding customers.

I assure you that FCPX does not represent the sum total of innovation in post production. What about products like RED or the Ki Pro? Software packages like NUKE or SCRATCH? DAMs like CatDV or the erstwhile Artbox/Final Cut Server? NLE features like ScriptSync or the Mercury Playback Engine, or Avid's and Quantel's experiments in cloud editorial?



[Bill Davis] "And in ways that those competitors CERTAINLY can't do if they have to keep their focus on a shrinking (albeit high end) market such as episodic TV and feature shops."

This isn't my market, so I really don't know -- but how is this shrinking? I know that big traditional post facilities are hurting, but aren't smaller shops picking up tons of work here? There are more television channels than ever, they all want fresh content, and TV viewership still dominates video consumption [link].

There are also plenty of non-broadcast shops like mine, or plenty of freelancers, all spending several thousands of dollars a year on software licensing.

Do these numbers compare with the size of the mass market? Certainly not -- but it doesn't mean there's no money or room for innovation in niche markets. Consider the classic Honda/Mercedes Benz analogy, which I think neatly addresses both the opportunities for profit and innovation in smaller, high-margin markets.



[Bill Davis] "So while FCP-X may do nothing for you right now. If it catches fire over the next few years, It is GOING to drive innovation across the industry in ways that I simple don't think it's competitors can do."

Such as?

And so what? My whole argument since FCPX was released was that it's better to be nimble than faithful. I'm not adopting FCPX exclusively, but I'm not ignoring it either -- otherwise I wouldn't be here.


[Bill Davis] "That's a pretty scary scenario for editing as an industry."

Or exciting!



[Bill Davis] "I just think it's time to be very careful out there."

Meaning what? Prices are at an all-time low, development and release cycles are shorter than ever, and excluding FCPX, openness is at an all-time high. There's never been a time in our industry when the penalties for choosing the "wrong" system have been lower.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 4:20:36 am

[Walter Soyka] "[Bill Davis] "And in ways that those competitors CERTAINLY can't do if they have to keep their focus on a shrinking (albeit high end) market such as episodic TV and feature shops."

This isn't my market, so I really don't know -- but how is this shrinking? I know that big traditional post facilities are hurting, but aren't smaller shops picking up tons of work here? There are more television channels than ever, they all want fresh content, and TV viewership still dominates video consumption [link].
"


It certainly isn't. Television production is vast compared to where it was a quarter of a century ago. And over the last decade--though we've been rocked by strikes and economic downturn--we've produced, IMHO, some of the best television ever produced. Cable Channels serve niche markets like never before, with very high-quality programing. There are all kinds of new forms of distribution--some competing, some complimentary--and in general, we have a world population that enjoys being entertained by professional show folk. Movies are healthy as well. I see nothing to suggest that either is a shrinking business.


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Bill Davis
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 5:09:30 am

[Walter Soyka] "[Bill Davis] "So while FCP-X may do nothing for you right now. If it catches fire over the next few years, It is GOING to drive innovation across the industry in ways that I simple don't think it's competitors can do."

Such as?

"


Well,

I think the "elevation" of general purpose video editing into a mainstream form of communication is liable to be transformative. There will always be professional editors with high level skills and business models that drive their work and paychecks. But up to this point in history, it wasn't really possible for specialized skills such as video editing to spread out of the pro shops and into the larger population. Today, I know a lot of business owners who are increasingly "video fluent." It's the guy who owns the dog training operation shooting his own training sessions, editing the results and using it just like the sports teams do to drive performance. It's the small business woman who figures out that she CAN set up a camera and even if she's not completely smooth and professional, can do a credible job of demonstrating her new product or service.

There was a point in human history when the ability to read and write was the great distinguisher between those who had the best chance of upward mobility and those who didn't.

It's interesting to imagine what "visual communication skills" will enable for people who have them in the future.

As an example, just based on my corporate work over the past few decades, I've seen a lot of circumstances where corporate team members with "video chops" moved ahead of competitors who didn't understand the communicative power of video or who couldn't face the lights and look capable.

I'm not contending that there's any direct causal connection between editing skills and general life success. But as video creation skills spread, I bet that we see more and more "non-pros" using the technology to drive the kind of financial and business results that not long ago HAD to rely on specialists.

Just thinking out loud.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 9:26:38 am

Bill, I agree with pretty much everything you said there.


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 2:16:41 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Bill, I agree with pretty much everything you said there."

This is unacceptable, Chris. This is a debate forum!

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!


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Walter Soyka
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 3:28:02 pm

I agree with this analysis, too.

In my mind, innovation and democratization are two separate things; I guess I thought you were going somewhere else with your line of reasoning when I responded to your previous post.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 2:27:38 am

[Bill Davis] "
I think the "elevation" of general purpose video editing into a mainstream form of communication is liable to be transformative. There will always be professional editors with high level skills and business models that drive their work and paychecks. But up to this point in history, it wasn't really possible for specialized skills such as video editing to spread out of the pro shops and into the larger population. Today, I know a lot of business owners who are increasingly "video fluent." It's the guy who owns the dog training operation shooting his own training sessions, editing the results and using it just like the sports teams do to drive performance. It's the small business woman who figures out that she CAN set up a camera and even if she's not completely smooth and professional, can do a credible job of demonstrating her new product or service."


Bill, I'm not using this as a crack, but in the last week or so, you've made negative reference to the historical skills mess from the birth of desktop publishing in reply to simon ubsdell on youtube video usage I think - referring to the proliferation of tools usage in that crazy period of dissemination of publishing skills - fonts ago-go, and bad design.

And then I read the above quote and I am confused to the point of being brought to a stop..

As someone who was half formally trained in print design and typography, I was never much in fear of new entrants with page maker and a leaflet they needed to make. I was however utterly inspired by carson, neville brody and the other new wave typographic practitioners. they ripped up the book. they reformulated what type design meant - and the digital transformation completely underpinned their leap.

Right?

we understand that both of us yes? So we have a casual wholesale dissemination of tools availability - for anyone - allied to an explosion of entry and execution for those operating at the highest level expression of talent in the typographic and design industry. great stuff.

So simultaneously both for the casual; pagemaker - latterly word or anything, and then Quark, fontographer, illustrator, Aldus products for the professional - all good - *but* there is no moron's drumbeat to make one mulch of anything. we all arc away.

looking back, it is an over-said truth that there was bad design - fine - tools and availability were magnified incredibly - but it was grand, it all sorted itself out.

nevertheless, the idea that the entrance, the show stopping entrance of a guy badly putting together a corporate six page newsletter was a harbringer of transformative change to the craft of design and typography is laughable right Bill? because it wasn't.

I'm really wondering about what your guy here below brings to the party:

I know a lot of business owners who are increasingly "video fluent." It's the guy who owns the dog training operation shooting his own training sessions, editing the results and using it just like the sports teams do to drive performance.


What do you actually mean bill?
do you mean that editing doesn't matter fullstop, or do you mean that editing doesn't matter to him? Do you mean that editing is that typographic flyer on his wall with bad comic sans? And that is what editing should be?

Seriously Bill - do you actually care at all about the craft of editing? What are you saying?

then you say all this guff:


editing the results and using it just like the sports teams do to drive performance. It's the small business woman who figures out that she CAN set up a camera and even if she's not completely smooth and professional, can do a credible job of demonstrating her new product or service.

There was a point in human history when the ability to read and write was the great distinguisher between those who had the best chance of upward mobility and those who didn't.

It's interesting to imagine what "visual communication skills" will enable for people who have them in the future.


It's interesting to imagine what "visual communication skills" will enable for people who have them in the future

I'm going to answer that Bill - its a flyer.

OK? you're describing a flyer.

that aside.

there are things to do with FCPX that annoy me, the biggest thing is that Apple decided that tool and market dissemination wasn't enough, they had to take adobe illustrator, Photoshop, the Aldus products... Quark and smash the video version of that into a grey consumer mulch which they would then throw away as a loss leader.

they're like microsoft - they are killing the entire field of editing, avid et al while they're at it, and offering up a half baked nearly unusable version of their consumer editing app for three hundred dollars! nobody ever has to think about editing again!

even microsoft never shafted the humanitarian arts as badly as apple is doing.

they are wrecking the technical market for the pursuit of the art and craft of editing. they are about destroying the entire market. Apple are nearly the worst thing that ever happened to the moving image software maket at this point.

think about it - they are killing the entire market in a pure microsoft fashion by making it economically inhospitable. Immense market leverage for the price of a proverbial burger. Does this remind you of anyone? Do we think we will see any other new innovations? in a 300 dollar perpetuity pagemaker market? Why don't they just make it free? At least then we could launch netscape style anti-trust.

People say that, at their worst, Microsoft deadened the stuff closest to them - OS's, browsers for a while, word processors, speadsheets, etc.

well.. welcome to your very own nightmare apple: because you are smothering with price and leverage the heartland market your dead founder stood in front of -
your crossroads of the arts and humanities: you would smother any other entrant, and you will sell software for five bucks if needs be to kill and command that market.
If Avid goes under, and premiere limps along - what's editing got now that Apple got rid of everything?

Editing has Apple the way the browser had Microsoft.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 5:28:11 am

I'm not saying what Apple has done with FCPX is the end all be all. Rarely do I, personally, see things in devastating or windfall extremes. Fcpx will be right for some, not for all, and for the "not all" crowd, some smart company will fill the void if there's profit to be made.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Editing has Apple the way the browser had microsoft."

A mentor of mine told me that it's never been about the tools. It's always about the talent using the tools, and this was prior to digital acquisition and post. If you have the most expensive camera in the room and take shitty pictures, no one will hire you. This has been going on for a long time.

This same conversation happened with FCP and a little later the "DV revolution". Some even said it about the ubiquitous Sony UVW1800 workhorse, it just wasn't good enough.

The tools are getting cheaper as is the processing, not necessarily for the latest greatest sizzle cores, but certainly for some of the get 'er done cores.

When you hire a carpenter, do you look at his tools? Did cheap steel ruin their craft or can they still pound nails and build a home?

While I agree with you, I don't agree with you.

Blackmagic is giving away a really powerful color corrector. Is that destroying a part of the craft?

If Lightworks gets off the ground, is viable, and offers their product for a minimal charge. Is that destroying the craft?

If FCPX had interchange in June and sold at the same price, would you still feel this way?

This video that came from fcp.co today kind of dovetails, somewhat, to some of the ideas floating around here but pertains to the camera market:

Things are changing faster than ever before.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 7:41:40 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "A mentor of mine told me that it's never been about the tools. It's always about the talent using the tools"

Honestly Jeremy, that's one of the most overused and supremely over-simplistic cliches of all times. And, it's really insulting to those artists who have heavily invested in FCP infrastructure. There are many very talented artists around the world who simply can't afford the kind of disruption Apple has created for them in these times of tremendous economic upheaval.

The costs of retraining and retooling are hardly insignificant for many, and they should not be made to sound trivial. You have the luxury of working for people who buy your toys, but not everyone in the world is so lucky. Rafael has mentioned this to you several times, but you're not obviously not paying attention.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 12:00:03 pm

Yes rather, a mentor of mine told me to really try not to use the hackneyed 'it's not the tools it's the talent' line if at all possible.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 3:07:29 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Yes rather, a mentor of mine told me to really try not to use the hackneyed 'it's not the tools it's the talent' line if at all possible."

Oh boy. It was an anecdote. It's never been about the tools.

The same arguments were had when video cameras came out and took over some of the film business.

It's been happening for a very long time. That's all.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 2:11:16 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Honestly Jeremy, that's one of the most overused and supremely over-simplistic cliches of all times. And, it's really insulting to those artists who have heavily invested in FCP infrastructure. There are many very talented artists around the world who simply can't afford the kind of disruption Apple has created for them in these times of tremendous economic upheaval.

The costs of retraining and retooling are hardly insignificant for many, and they should not be made to sound trivial. You have the luxury of working for people who buy your toys, but not everyone in the world is so lucky. Rafael has mentioned this to you several times, but you're not obviously not paying attention."


David-

As I mentioned to Rafael, and with all do respect, I do not feel that my personal employment arrangement is what needs to be on trial here. And yes, that's is a cliche, that was the point as I went on to explain that there's even cheaper professional options put there then FCPX. So is it about the cost of the tools?

I have done nothing wrong here. If you don't like me for whatever reason, that's is fine, but please don't make assumptions on what you think my employment situation might be. I can pretty much guarantee you don't know how it works, why should you? I wouldn't expect you to and I certainly wouldn't think it matters.

I'm really sorry if I have offended people for whatever reason. It is certainly not my intention.

I am trying to figure this situation out just like everyone else, and it's going to hurt a bit. I understand that my opinions are probably unpopular as I actually see potential in FCPX. I'm OK with that. Be mad at Apple, don't make assumptions about my employment, as I surely don't make assumptions about yours or anyone else's. It's none of my business.

Thanks for your understanding.

We will never have another FCS3. It is gone. Buried. Legend. The sooner we all realize this, the better.

What I find really ironic about this whole situation, is that the same. exact. arguments. we're had about fcp3. It was too cheap, it was too easy, it was not professional. Did that prevent anyone from using it?

I have no idea what is in store for FCPX. I have no idea if it will truly be a viable platform to build a business around*, but this conversation has taken place before. Our roles in the conversation have probably changed since then, but we shouldn't forget where we came from. Believe me, David. I'm paying attention.

A decision was made without us knowing it, and it leaves us with tough choices. Yep, it might be hard, and yep, there's going to be a learning curve, but that's how it's been in the digital camera business for the better part of a decade. Every camera is different, they record to different formats and require different workflows. Cameras purchased 5 years ago are no longer sold. It has not been easy (or cheap) but the world has survived. And we too, will survive this. Right?

Jeremy



* (that is if you believe I am in business)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 5:26:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have done nothing wrong here. If you don't like me for whatever reason, that's is fine, but please don't make assumptions on what you think my employment situation might be."

The thing is Jeremy, we all like you. You "were" always a completely reliable and supportive ally on the FCP Forum. Then, the skimmer came along...

So, now you hear guys like Shane, Rafael, and myself responding to some of your posts in ways that make you question our Garchow brand loyalty, and naturally you think we must not like you anymore. I get it... It's not true, but I get it.

[Jeremy Garchow] "It has not been easy (or cheap) but the world has survived. And we too, will survive this. Right?"

It is precisely on this point where we differ. An entire ecosystem system has been brought to its knees, without any warning, and when that happens extinctions are inevitable. And, contrary to what you and others on this forum keep repeating, and repeating, and repeating, it's not just the old, the weak, and the infirmed who suffer in times like these.

The bones of Tyrannosaurs and the teeth of Megalodons are the only relics of those bad boys (and girls) that remain to tell their tale, and they were not inferior, untalented, old, or too set in their ways. To continue to suggest that this unexpected event will not prove to be a cataclysm for many very talented artists is simply blindness, insensitivity, or both.

And, any of you who want to argue that they'll be better off after the shakeout may be in for a rude awakening. There are no "agile" or "more nimble" dinosaurs ruling the Earth today; their bones lay right beside their bigger dinosaur competitors, and they're just as dead and just as extinct.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 6:36:13 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "The thing is Jeremy, we all like you. You "were" always a completely reliable and supportive ally on the FCP Forum. Then, the skimmer came along...

So, now you hear guys like Shane, Rafael, and myself responding to some of your posts in ways that make you question our Garchow brand loyalty, and naturally you think we must not like you anymore. I get it... It's not true, but I get it. "


While I am flattered, I think we should take this offline. I could really say the same, but there's no reason to discuss this in a public forum, or at least this public forum. I do see potential in FCPX, and that's about the only thing that has changed and it seems to have caused a seismic gap. I understand it's not the most popular point of view. I will write you offline.

[David Roth Weiss] "It is precisely on this point where we differ. An entire ecosystem system has been brought to its knees, without any warning, and when that happens extinctions are inevitable. And, contrary to what you and others on this forum keep repeating, and repeating, and repeating, it's not just the old, the weak, and the infirmed who suffer in times like these. "

I have never said anything about the old, the weak and the infirmed, at least nothing that has singled out anyone quite like that. Everyone's situation is completely different including mine, so I can only offer one perspective. As far as the ecosystem being on it's knees, I just don't see it as the sky being that low quite yet, and I think it's part of a greater problem and FCPX is not the catalyst. If Apple would have released FCS4, the upgrade cost would have been at or higher than FCPX (and if it was lower, would anyone have complained?). The cross-grades that have been offered by other NLE companies have been extremely fair, some professional software is being handed out for free. A lot of the tools we use today (the royal we), right now, are cross platform. There has never been a better (read: more affordable) time to look around. It is not about the money (but alas, it's about the money). It's not about the cost of FCPX, it's about the cost of the non existent FCS4.

By the way, FCPX is being used for Episodic TV: http://twitter.com/#!/DSquirrel/status/141777389670768640/photo/1

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 6:42:49 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think we should take this offline... ...there's no reason to discuss this in a public forum, or at least this public forum. I will write you offline."

I agree with you... Better yet, call me.

DRW

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 1:39:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Blackmagic is giving away a really powerful color corrector. Is that destroying a part of the craft?"

that more than a bit of a false comparison - blackmagic are still looking for quite a bit of money for the hardware interface and the full version on the suite correct? So this is a lite software release like countless others, in order to draw in the market? I don't quite see what point is being made there.

Also, blackmagic at least had the good grace not to turn their advanced software into "My First Moron Colour Corrector - Now Featuring Terminally Stupid Square Colour Wheels"....


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 3:11:25 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that more than a bit of a false comparison - blackmagic are still looking for quite a bit of money for the hardware interface and the full version on the suite correct? So this is a lite software release like countless others, in order to draw in the market? I don't quite see what point is being made there"

Aindreas, you must have missed the news. Resolve Lite now offers unlimited nodes and DNxHD MXF support for FREE. It's also being ported to Windows.

Conversations on the Resolve board mirror some of the conversations here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/277/12107

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 3:15:53 pm

I know, I somewhat chose to ignore that point. it does.. look suspiciously free.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 4:16:06 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I know, I somewhat chose to ignore that point. it does.. look suspiciously free."

Take a really good look around.

The DaVinci platform is free.

Lightworks is also offering a platform, and it will be almost free.

Adobe allows you to hire the CS on a monthly (or yearly) basis, and some of it will be available in the cloud. They are also looking ahead and seeing how viable their software is going to run on (shudder) tablets. They know the power isn't there yet, but will it be there some day? http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud.html

It is up to the individual user to scale up these platforms and make it as pro as he or she needs. Is that going to destroy a craft?

That same mentor that I mentioned in his 30+ years of business, the rental costs of his tools to his clients has dramatically stayed pretty much the same, and his day rate rate hasn't changed a whole hell of a lot, and he is still doing just fine. That has been through the myriad of formats that have come and gone while price differences of those tools have fluctuated from a second mortgage to a second day of work. So, perhaps you and DRW will discount this. I will not. To each their own, it's really none of my business how you run your business.

This idea is not being held on to or offered only by Apple. As a matter of fact, it is how they are competing. It seems to be a new way of doing business and figuring out a cost structure.

While FCPX could be used as a "digital flier" maker, so could Adobe Illustrator, or Photoshop, or Photoshop Elements. But there's also people that can use those exact same tools and make great work. So I ask you, cliche or not, is it really the cost of the tools? This argument is not new, has already happened and will continue. It is perhaps our position and perspective in the midst of the argument that most likely has changed since we were forced to take a good look around. The world around us has certainly changed a bunch.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 3:15:34 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that more than a bit of a false comparison - blackmagic are still looking for quite a bit of money for the hardware interface and the full version on the suite correct? So this is a lite software release like countless others, in order to draw in the market? I don't quite see what point is being made there."

Becuase my particular view point is unpopular, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I get it.

Do you have to buy the hardware though? No. I am sure there will be people that use a color corrector without proper hardware.

Doesn't black magic offer some of the lowest price hardware out there?

Lightworks will also offer hardware, but is it absolutely necessary?

It's not a false comparison.

I agree with most of the things you say, Aindreas, your flier analogy is spot on, but this argument you are making has been happening since the dawn of composite video. It is nothing new and Apple aren't the only ones that have lowered the cost barrier.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 4:02:14 pm

Aindreas, I am sympathetic to your sentiment here and I do hate to disagree with you, but I think Bill has a point.

There was a time (granted, it was the Middle Ages -- but still, there was a time...) when you hired someone to write your letters for you. Today, practically everyone is literate and nearly all people write nearly all of their own correspondence. Of course, there is still a good market for professional writers, but the skill of writing is no longer their exclusive domain, and there's no longer any such thing as a scribe.

Video will not be as widespread as writing. After all, we're a group of video professionals communicating with written words! However, I think Bill's point stands: video literacy will only increase from here.



[Aindreas Gallagher] "they are wrecking the technical market for the pursuit of the art and craft of editing. they are about destroying the entire market. Apple are nearly the worst thing that ever happened to the moving image software maket at this point. think about it - they are killing the entire market in a pure microsoft fashion by making it economically inhospitable. Immense market leverage for the price of a proverbial burger. Does this remind you of anyone? Do we think we will see any other new innovations? in a 300 dollar perpetuity pagemaker market?"

On the subject of falling prices, I think post-production was caught in the middle. The costs of both acquisition and distribution have plummeted, which has broadened access to both. Someone had to fill the gap in the middle of the process. Apple is following here, not leading. Blame Sony for the VX1000, or Flip for the FlipCam, or the big electronics conglomerates for every video camera in every cell phone in everyone's pocket. Blame YouTube.

Is Apple wrong to expand access by lowering the barriers to entry? I'd have a hard time arguing that, since I was a big beneficiary of Final Cut Pro's insanely low pricing ten years ago. Does it really make a difference if they sell it for $300 versus $995?

If FCPX doesn't deliver the features that pros need, or if Apple doesn't make pros feel better about buying Apple products again, does it matter how cheaply they sell it?

Has FCPX really impacted the market at all -- other than driving new Avid and Adobe license sales? All the facilities seem to have glanced at FCPX, blinked, and then gone about their business.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 7:06:22 pm

What I don't like in this FCPX analogy of Writing and Editing is that Writing is basically externalizing a preexistent spoken language.While Editing is still pretty much a craft in which there isn't a previous and universal language per se.(as we learn it much later in life -and in a passive way by watching it on a screen)

We all learn how to speak when we are babies, so writing it down is a natural step forward, isn't it? And a very early one too.I don't know how Editing could be nearly as natural as Writing because it's still a late and a rare feature in humans, after all. And by its passive nature, while watching it, Editing wouldn't let one to communicate as good as reading it and promptly writing it back.

So, while Editing may increase in popularity, it's still a fetishism, and I don't see it coming as near (or as natural) as Writing.You picture it very well, Walter; In a group of video professionals we're still talking with these old words.
How far is this fetish of "videoing everything" going? My bet is, not very far than we see it today. Only slightly enhanced.There's still money to be made, of course, and that's the path Apple chose to walk into. The fetish way.

It is a very tantalizing analogy of democratizing a communication skill, but it won't help FCPX to be a "revolutionary writing pen". Nor we as editors will become the middle age scribes, that once walked the earth, being stormed by an Apple design. Wait, maybe a thunderbolt connection between thinking brains will allow their generated imagery to "talk" to each other? Oh dear, I see an iThink coming up soon. Beware!


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 7:15:30 pm

Since everybody here seems to be so much in favor of the so called democratization of editing and postproduction in general, let me be the devil's advocate and say that I am not.
If you are a business owner, what's there to like? It may not be a "nice" point of view in such a forum but it is one that makes economic sense. Is it futile? Sure, nobody's gonna changes that evolution (no "revolution" in my mind, rather a devaluation).

10 years ago, you had to pay a premium for an Avid. Spruce DVD Maestro cost in the 80.000 dollar range if I remember correctly. But you could also charge good prices for work so you could pay back the bank AND make a decent living.
If you're spending 100.000 and more for your studio gear, chances are very likely you are both determined, trained and experienced in what you were doing - not just with regards to the actual work itself but the process of running a business in general. And it was all f***ing template free.
By the time you are able to buy such gear, you were ready to use it, run a business with it AND create stuff that is worthwhile creating.
Downloading a 300 dollar app from the app store is a whole different story.
While I do editing now and then (we mainly do various post work but not so much editing as most people here do on a daily basis), I would never call myself an editor. And editor is trained, first as an assistant, then slowly moves up the chain. It takes years. And it shows. Same for camera people, DPs or directors.

Coppola, I think, said at the beginning of the the the whole digital video revolution how great this trend will be because somewhere a kid may pick up one of those inexpensive dv cameras and make a film. And it'll be like a cinematic, young Mozart.

While that may be true, for every Mozart there are 1000 hacks and that's the reality I am seeing all the time. Do we have better films compared to previous decades when it was a job exclusively done by seasoned professionals. I don't think so. I strongly argue that the opposite is true.
Is there better graphic design out there compared to previous decades. No, again, I think the opposite is true.

The work we do mostly involves regular feature film stuff for various rights holders and licencees. If any one of you have been to Cannes or the American Film Market, now and 15 years ago, the difference is like night and day. There is a vast amount of sub-standard, low budget material out there, essentially shot by a bunch of guys without proper background, with prosumer cameras, edited with FCP 7 and thrown onto the market. And it's full with issues and problems that were unthinkable 10 years ago. There is so much of it, the market is over saturated. Prices go down, good product gets overlooked and sits on the shelves cause the pipes are blocked.
Unfortunately, the market doesn't regulate itself really - ie. sub-par stuff isn't rejected. The cheap stuff cost little and doesn't rely on returns at any box office, they are sold in packages by the dozen because markets have grown but people can still only watch so much and the day only has 24 hours. Most of it is genre material, spectacular artwork and trailer to attract attention goes along with it and it then is's thrown in a license packages together with 30 other titles for dvd, blu-ray or pay-tv world wide. It's sold like porn, by the cover and by the pound.
Compressor costs 50 dollars - and it does DVD and Blu-ray encoding, it even does (sort of) format conversion, right?. Cinemacraft costs 60.000 and it ONLY does DVD and Blu-ray. An Alchemist is well beyond 100.000k. Is the quality the same? No, it isn't, of course. But for the average person Compressor's results looks decent enough (sometimes!!!!). It is hard to explain to a customer (who often is clueless and even more often doesn't care as long as it fits the specs and is CHEAP) why you charge more (and have to charge more) then somebody who spent 50 dollars on such an app. If you are lucky you can make a good niche for yourself with some primetime companies that do care about such things and are prepared to spent the money. If not you are having a hard time or you're going with the cheap stuff, too.

I think the quality of product out there goes down. There are exceptions but in general I feel it's true. And because CHEAP rules, that trend makes it hard for those professionals and companies who do care, invest and pay for top quality software and gear to remain profitable. And then people wonder: "Why don't look my encodes, my downscales, my put-whatever-you-like-here look like the Hollywood stuff I can buy out there?
Apple's motivation in all that is, of course, not democratization of anything but the sales of hardware. I just don't think it is doing any of us - as company owners, freelancer or simply an audience - any favour in the long run, five to ten years from now.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together? NOW: Democratization
on Nov 30, 2011 at 7:48:26 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Since everybody here seems to be so much in favor of the so called democratization of editing and postproduction in general, let me be the devil's advocate and say that I am not."

Am I "in favor of democratization?"

Yes, in that it let me start a business ten years ago for a tenth of the money that it would have cost me just a few years before that.

No, in that someone else can start a business to compete with me today for a tenth of what I paid. The same phenomenon that allowed me to disrupt other businesses now threatens my own.

Does democratization encourage lower standards for quality, or do our lower standards for quality allow democratization? It's a chicken and egg question.

Cheap gear isn't even the big problem. Cheap labor is. Media is a sexy business which graduates more candidates every year than there are positions to fill. Supply and demand says that this will push wages down.

Democratization may be bad for business, because I'll be too expensive to win over the masses of cheap bids. It may be good for business, because the low quality of the cheap-bid work will help differentiate my higher quality work and actually increase its value.

I'm not trying to make a value judgment about democratization. Whether I like it or not, it's inevitable reality, like gravity, the speed of light, or the weather. You can like it or you can hate it -- just don't ignore it.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Ken Zukin
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together? NOW: Democratization
on Nov 30, 2011 at 8:58:15 pm

It is what it is. No sense whining about it. I'm predominantly a cameraman -- have been so for 30 years. It's hard for me to watch documentaries on say HBO, that have sub-standard camerawork. Even nature shows, once the domain of the most talented documentary DP's, have slipped -- badly.

If more people now have access to a pro-editing environment, so be it.

In the end, there's nothing to do but produce work that shines. The top people get the calls; that's the way it's always been -- here's to a free and open market.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together? NOW: Democratization
on Nov 30, 2011 at 9:44:13 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "If you are a business owner, what's there to like? It may not be a "nice" point of view in such a forum but it is one that makes economic sense. Is it futile? Sure, nobody's gonna changes that evolution (no "revolution" in my mind, rather a devaluation)."

And if the quality of the movies/tv/whatever is so bad, why aren't networks/film festivals/whatever rejecting them?

There is no question, it is harder to make money, on the flip there is no question there are many more avenues to make money from these days. Like Walter says, it's a chicken and egg.

Have a look down memory lane:

http://forums.creativecow.net/archivethread/45/46439
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivethread/45/46404
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/45/136435
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/45/135721
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/45/47078
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/8/2471
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/8/2415
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/8/2293
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/8/3249
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/8/3154
http://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/8/3020 - For you Aindreas

...and many morrreeee!


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Bill Davis
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together? NOW: Democratization
on Dec 2, 2011 at 2:34:08 am

OMG, Jeremy, how did you find this gem!

That "for Andreas" link was astonishing, It could have been lifted essentially verbatim and with a "search and replace" between Legacy in it's inception and the X rollout - it's deja vu all over again!

Thanks for the reminder that we've been down nearly this exact same path before.

And it not only worked out fine for Apple (and Randy) but enabled a huge swath of the people reading here to make a living in the intervening decade.

Cheers.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Bill Davis
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 30, 2011 at 10:53:58 pm

Where to begin.

Aindreas...

I hear your concern and your pain. But there's nothing either of us can do about it.
Believe it or not, I'm trying to cope with precisely the same change and pain. I've just decided that instead of fighting it and railing against it, I will embrace it and try to find the things about the change that are empowering rather than just yell about it.

Change is disruptive. Period. And we all have to deal with this disruption.

Your argument sounds to me like someone in the Court of some 14th century king arguing that the peasants thatdon't have the economic clout to afford a personal craftsmen to build them a custom Clavenet - don't deserve to learn how to play the piano.

That was precisely how the old world worked. The power of (anything) was reserved for the people who could AFFORD that thing.

Today it's a different world. People with little money can afford astonishing personal technology.

No where is that more true than in the visual arts.

To build on your example in typesetting - it was once only those who could afford a lead type foundry - then it was people who could afford a Linotronic L-100 - then it was people who could afford a $6000 laserwriter (I was one of those myself!) - then after a while, anyone with a 500 laptop and a $150 Epson inkjet could practice "do it yourself" typesetting at a level unimaginable to that guy who used to sweat at the type slug foundry for his whole life.

I got schooled because I was able to afford that Laserwriter I. You probably did the same. There was a week BEFORE I knew what a kerning pair was - and a week AFTER I learned that. And like it or not, there's a kid out there with a DSLR and MacBook who is getting schooled in exactly the same way as I write this. The unescapable difference is that the pool of those learning was small back in my day (and surely in yours as well) since a $6000 laserwriter/computer combo was pretty rare back when I was getting started.

A laptop, a library of fonts available via download on-line, and an Epson ink-jet printer is in damn near every home today.

And next to them you'll find a camcorder. A TV set. And a laptop computer that shipped with free editing software.

If you can't see the change represented by that - you might explore whether you possibly have some "Industry-insider" blinders on.

Everyone here knows that the real challenge is assembling the skills and wisdom to USE the tools properly. And that means buckling down and paying ones dues and learning the language and techniques - learning what works and what doesn't, to make a buck (just like ALL of us did.)

But the huge change is the human expectation of ***access***

And Apple isn't the cause of that. They're just the company that understood it in a particularly useful fashion before anyone else.

My 2 cents.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Dec 1, 2011 at 12:56:16 am

look bill, relative to this debate forum, my reply is that this is bad software made for the wrong reasons.

Histrionic defences of epochal change in technology and social organisation do not alter that fact.

[Bill Davis] "And next to them you'll find a camcorder. A TV set. And a laptop computer that shipped with free editing software.

If you can't see the change represented by that - you might explore whether you possibly have some "Industry-insider" blinders on.
"


I see the the same things Bill - but I'm not going ga-ga over it. As I said - you're proposing the same kind of casual skills usage popularised by the desktop publishing explosion. Anyone could make a badly designed flier as a result, now they can make a badly produced ad for the dog kennel, as I believe your original example posited. Good luck to them. Thats fine - it allows them to make low utility stuff that they would have had to pay for - that's dandy.

On the other hand you have the british director of... monsters was it called? pushed the whole thing out of the adobe suite. Got enormous acclaim and attention. And this after an astonishing track record with the beeb pushing out unbelievable post for historical docos.

So those are two things bill right - they are both dependent on transformative tool dissemination change. means, price and processing power.

my point is that we have seen this, in a very measurable way, before. People disinterested with typography remained disinterested by typography thirty years later. Kerning is not tabloid conversation. This is a craft Bill - I need to get this through to you. common society is not going to explode in a napalm fire of excitement at the sight of three point editing - even if apple has made a morons special mittens versions of it in X.
they could care less Bill - they have other things to do. In point of fact, a certain thrust of this argument almost has a weird form of craft narcissism to it.

What I find quite seriously annoying in the FCPX debate is the exceptionalism applied to this software - its just bad software bill. Its buggy, bloated, its undo's are unstable, the project file mutates in size at a whim, large projects are a no-no, the colour corrector is a joke, the plug-in architecture is brain damaged.

And yet people surround this software with grand transformative arguments that it does in no way deserve.

This just isn't particularly good software Bill, and in order to effect it, Apple had to kill an awful lot of very good software.


[Bill Davis] "
But the huge change is the human expectation of ***access***
"


seriously? - and i'm getting snarky - but seriously - what? Its just editing software Bill - badly conceived and executed editing software.

It's not the singularity.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Dec 1, 2011 at 4:38:17 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "What I find quite seriously annoying in the FCPX debate is the exceptionalism applied to this software - its just bad software bill. Its buggy, bloated, its undo's are unstable, the project file mutates in size at a whim, large projects are a no-no, the colour corrector is a joke, the plug-in architecture is brain damaged.
"


Finally, some meat.

There's no doubt FCPX has some very real growing pains. I know people like to discount this, but this is a v1 Beta. Yes, it should have been handed differently, yes, it probably shouldn't have been released in this form, but in my experience these types of problems are fixable. I have worked with more bloated software that does get fixed. Whether Apple delivers or you choose to believe it, is up to Apple. So, at this moment in time, you are right it's a bit tenuous. People seem to be using it in the real world, that is a fact.

Jeremy


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Dec 1, 2011 at 4:52:05 pm

Well, on facts of its real world use, I don't know of a single individual or production shop in London employing FCPX professionally. Not one. It is being completely rejected. And the reason is simple - its bad software, made for the wrong reasons, and it is unfit for purpose at this time. As you say, extraordinary things could happen. Or apple could just increasingly ignore it and then kill it in three years.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Dec 1, 2011 at 5:01:08 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Well, on facts of its real world use, I don't know of a single individual or production shop in London employing FCPX professionally. Not one. It is being completely rejected. And the reason is simple - its bad software, made for the wrong reasons, and it is unfit for purpose at this time. As you say, extraordinary things could happen. Or apple could just increasingly ignore it and then kill it in three years."

Brother, I hear you. The path is shrouded in overgrowth.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 9:02:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm doing end of year cleaning in the studio, and I just came across a big box of about 2 dozen AppleTalk boxes and maybe 150 feet of attendant cable."

Are you sure this is an annual ritual you're performing there?

[Bill Davis] "It seems SO old fashioned when compared to my MacBook Pro that does nearly everything the MacPro does, but without all the attached crap."

But when its built-in battery dies out and it goes to replacement service at Apple...
What's gonna be left in the Studio? :-)


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Johnny Martin
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 8:12:36 pm

I don't know maybe I'm just old school, but even after reading your posts I'm thinking wouldn't it be safer to revert back to AVID on PC ? Even if they laid off 200 people and the stock is trading at a record low, they certainly look well positionned to reclaim some market, no?

Dreamworks went with linux a while back and there pushing it ever farther...

Their key concern was scalability of software, hardware and network.

http://www.redhat.com/summit/dreamworks/index.html


It's hard to foresee just how scalable and how well the new generation of Apple hardware and software will "play with others" . But FCX certainly has failed in that department so far (see Walter Murch's interview: http://www.macvideo.tv/editing/interviews/?articleId=3316346)


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 9:07:44 pm

I hear you, and it's a choice everybody can and has to make. With TB devices largely not being cross platform it would tie me even more not only to Apple hardware but to OSX exclusively. Several key apps I use are Win only so that alone means it is a no-go. Open, compatible, flexible, freedom of choice or walled-in and proprietary. It's the whole age-old Apple thing that I thought we had left behind with the move to Intel and that now comes back full-swing with virtually everything that Apple does these days.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 28, 2011 at 10:11:04 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "It's the whole age-old Apple thing that I thought we had left behind with the move to Intel and that now comes back full-swing with virtually everything that Apple does these days.
"


Oh, now. Come on. You're just holding it wrong. (ironic emoticon goes here)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 4:05:43 am

[Frank Gothmann] "With TB devices largely not being cross platform it would tie me even more not only to Apple hardware but to OSX exclusively."

This will change rather soon, no? I thought Apple had an exclusive for only a short while.

Of course, raids will get tricky with the different file systems.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 7:10:45 am

I feel a more pertinent question is will pro users abandon Apple all together. Following the angst and the rumours over the past six months, I need a reason to stay with Apple for software and hardware. They have spooked my horses and I have so much more choice than one year ago.

I feel users will make the decision for Apple if they haven't already decided that demanding crusty old pros are just too hard. If they have decided then shame on them for dragging this agony out for the past six months.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 3:31:02 pm

[Michael Gissing] "I feel a more pertinent question is will pro users abandon Apple all together. Following the angst and the rumours over the past six months, I need a reason to stay with Apple for software and hardware. They have spooked my horses and I have so much more choice than one year ago."

Good point. I'm typing this on a PC right now. Although I've been relying on PCs for some specific software for years, the notion that I'd be doing the bulk of my work on a PC would have been almost unthinkable a year or two ago for anyone that knew me.

I'm sure I'm not the only one testing the waters -- and being pleasantly surprised.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 10:49:45 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "This will change rather soon, no? I thought Apple had an exclusive for only a short while."

Maybe. If I look at the product page of Blackmagic it seems they clearly make a destinction in that area. USB3 for win, TB for the Mac. No cross platform drivers for either of them. And very few pc makers have anounced support for TB at this point. It may well become another FW800 with little adoption.
What's the point of the exclusivity anyway? The more widespread a new technology becomes the more likely new devices will pop-up.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will Apple abandon pro-users all together?
on Nov 29, 2011 at 1:22:16 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "What's the point of the exclusivity anyway?"

From what I can gather, Apple threw some money in to get it to market.

If you look around, you'll see that it's probably coming to windows, there's been a few demos of it, it works on Bootcamp and windows 7.

My guess is that it will get there. Usb2 and fw800 are fairly similar, not exactly, but fairly. Thunderbolt and usb3 are quite different.

Whether or not blackmagic decides to write drivers is different. There's really no reason to write windows thunderbolt or Mac usb3 drivers at this particular time in history.


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