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Alan Lacey
Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 9:38:18 am

Okay, and don't say 'we're all viewing on laptops now so it isn't an issue'

I've been on the periphery of the business all my working life (editing 16mm through tape up to the present day PC & Mac) and have always tried to view native. All fine with production monitoring till the 'end' of the CRT era.

Now comes my confusion. Do modern led lcd production video monitors need?display interlace errors? A moderate ammount of my work, even though partially retired now, is SD and for DVD. As I work in the medical field I assume that these DVDs will mostly be played on computer but have to cater for settop player display maybe on CRT.

I've always judged interlace error (I work with multiple sources and am very graphics dependant) on the prod monitor (Liquid Silver, IoHD etc) but now FCPX is taking that away how are people handling interlace evaluation?

There may be a simple solution for this, if so please let me know.

I'd be very grateful for some advice on this.

Alan (Pal land)

FlashXDR,XDcamHD,XDcamEX,D9 etc
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Robert Brown
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 9:57:47 am

I can't say about FCP X but a tube monitor is always the best to judge fields since that was what they were designed for. I had many complaints about FCP with interlaced and it really wasn't designed well for it - slo mos are never field rendered but frame rendered with frame blend the only thing making them useable. We moved to 720 at work and now all those complaints are gone. I'd bet X is meant for progressive as it seemed Apple never really got how to deal with interlaced. Don't know if that helps but Avid seemed to me to be one of the few programs that was able to get that right.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Alan Lacey
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 12:27:34 pm

Thanks Robert, that's interesting.

Avid is the one name in the NLE world I will never subscribe to. I don't necessarily want the application to always get the interlace right, I just need a way to see what's happening reliably so I can take the required corrective steps.

So is 720 always progressive? I use XDcam (ex and HD -usually 1080i) so have the same problem with that.

The industry needs to get it's act together not only with interlace but aspect ratio - haw many times do we see this incorrectly set?

Cheers Alan

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 2:09:01 pm

Lets take a big step back here.

Fcp7 handled interlaced material just fine.

As of right now, you can't really judge interlacing in FCPX as there's no broadcast out. You can and should set the viewer to display both fields. In FCPX, you can step through field by field, something that fcp7 doesn't do.

So, yes broadcast LCD can evaluate interlacing issues, but you need a broadcast hookup, but that is coming in the next major FCPX update.

720p is always progressive.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:12:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, yes broadcast LCD can evaluate interlacing issues, but you need a broadcast hookup, but that is coming in the next major FCPX update. "

Jeremy's correct, professional broadcast LCD's (like Panasonic and Sony) can display interlace issues quite well.

As for the next FCPX update supporting that, let's hope so. And let's hope it's through "real" broadcast option boards, not just some sort of Thunderbolt dongle. I am disappointed to find out that Apple has had no communication with AJA about any of this. Early 2012 isn't that far away...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Alan Lacey
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:32:16 pm

No, I'd certainly not like to have to bin my IoHD.

Alan

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Mitch Ives
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:38:59 pm

[Alan Lacey] "No, I'd certainly not like to have to bin my IoHD."

Agreed, nor my Kona3. If FCPX supported the Kona 3, Apple could stop a lot of people leaving and going to Premiere and Avid...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:49:11 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Agreed, nor my Kona3. If FCPX supported the Kona 3, Apple could stop a lot of people leaving and going to Premiere and Avid..."

What makes things interesting is if you read the release notes for the Kona v9.1 drivers, all Kona products are "Thunderbolt aware".

Jeremy


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Mitch Ives
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:00:51 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What makes things interesting is if you read the release notes for the Kona v9.1 drivers, all Kona products are "Thunderbolt aware"."

Yes, I saw that... I just wish I knew what that meant?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:14:53 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Yes, I saw that... I just wish I knew what that meant?"

It means that the Kona cards can be stuck in an external Thunderbolt/PCIe enclosure and work as the Kona will recognize the signals coming via Thunderbolt.

You could then hook your Kona 3 to a Thunderbolt iMac for example. Theoretically.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:51:59 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It means that the Kona cards can be stuck in an external Thunderbolt/PCIe enclosure and work as the Kona will recognize the signals coming via Thunderbolt.

You could then hook your Kona 3 to a Thunderbolt iMac for example. Theoretically."


Let's hope it works better than every other external card cage has thus far...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:34:25 pm

[Mitch Ives] " I am disappointed to find out that Apple has had no communication with AJA about any of this. "

What do you mean?


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Mitch Ives
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:57:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Mitch Ives] " I am disappointed to find out that Apple has had no communication with AJA about any of this. "

What do you mean?"


AJA was at the local FCPUG meeting, and he was completely unaware of the update coming in 2012. I figured that might be classic rep behavior, so we exchanged cards and then he followed up requesting the link on Apple's site so he could talk to AJA management.

I followed up when he got back to HQ. He spoke to those in charge and I was told that no one in AJA has had any conversations with Apple. The fact that they are not even aware that Apple is (supposedly) going to provide professional monitoring is somewhat alarming. What was the point of Richard Townhill going on parade and doing damage control? Is Apple really serious? That makes me think it will be some kind of lame Thunderbolt support, using more Cinema displays.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:11:19 pm

[Mitch Ives] "I followed up when he got back to HQ. He spoke to those in charge and I was told that no one in AJA has had any conversations with Apple. The fact that they are not even aware that Apple is (supposedly) going to provide professional monitoring is somewhat alarming. What was the point of Richard Townhill going on parade and doing damage control? Is Apple really serious? That makes me think it will be some kind of lame Thunderbolt support, using more Cinema displays."

Hmm. Well, I would take all of this with a grain of salt.

If really there's no capture card support out of FCPX and they expect us to use a Thunderbolt display, that's seriously all I will need to know. I'm out if that's the case, but I highly doubt that this is the case.

AJA is, I'm sure, under strict NDA.

Apple themselves listed AJA as beta test partners in the FAQ.

Jeremy


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Mitch Ives
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:50:02 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If really there's no capture card support out of FCPX and they expect us to use a Thunderbolt display, that's seriously all I will need to know. I'm out if that's the case, but I highly doubt that this is the case.

AJA is, I'm sure, under strict NDA.

Apple themselves listed AJA as beta test partners in the FAQ."


I agree with you on the Thunderbolt only proposition. I'm sure AJA is under an NDA, and they have no problem telling you when they cannot discuss things. The problem here is their surprise and the fact that they didn't seem to know about Apple promising early 2012. That sounds more like being kept out of the loop, but then this is all speculation.

What FAQ are you referring to?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 6:12:47 pm

[Mitch Ives] "What FAQ are you referring to?"

The original Apple FAQ that's now offline. It was floating around somewhere, let me see if I can find it.


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Alan Lacey
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:31:09 pm

But Jeremy, if you can view individual fields in FCPX surely by selecting a suitable section of a clip and jogging through the fields you could check wether the field sequence is correct couldn't you?

Alan

FlashXDR,XDcamHD,XDcamEX,D9 etc
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G5,MBP,Vista64,XP


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:35:19 pm

[Alan Lacey] "But Jeremy, if you can view individual fields in FCPX surely by selecting a suitable section of a clip and jogging through the fields you could check wether the field sequence is correct couldn't you?"

Surely, but you might not notice them in the first place without a proper monitor. At least, it would be a bit more difficult.


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Alan Lacey
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:38:46 pm

What do you mean by a proper monitor Jeremy? I have a broadcast LCD which I can't hook up to FCPX and decent flatscreen computer monitors.

Alan

FlashXDR,XDcamHD,XDcamEX,D9 etc
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G5,MBP,Vista64,XP


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:43:11 pm

[Alan Lacey] "What do you mean by a proper monitor Jeremy? I have a broadcast LCD which I can't hook up to FCPX "

That's what I mean. Without proper video output from FCPX, it will be harder to spot any issues. As of now, you have to export the movie and watch it through AJA TV or something.

Supposedly broadcast out is coming to the next version of FCPX.

Jeremy


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Andy Neil
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 4:42:50 pm

[Alan Lacey]"if you can view individual fields in FCPX surely by selecting a suitable section of a clip and jogging through the fields you could check wether the field sequence is correct couldn't you?"

You're not viewing individual fields, you're able to view either one (probably the dominant field), or both at the same time. I think only Avid is able to view either/or fields. I don't know how well you can judge it by looking at both. Perhaps you can. Personally, if I know that a DVD will be viewed on both computers and set-top players, I try to make it a progressive DVD.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Alan Lacey
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:02:34 pm

Thanks Andy, trouble with the progressive route is that I usually have legacy material to include. Any tips about converting this to progressive before the edit? I have AE, shake etc.

I do remember doing a upper/lower field comparison years ago in one of the compositing apps to establish correct field order but can't recall the details.

Alan

FlashXDR,XDcamHD,XDcamEX,D9 etc
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Andy Neil
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:45:06 pm

[Alan Lacey] "Any tips about converting this to progressive before the edit?"

I always waited to convert to progressive when creating the QT used for the DVD. That way, the original material was still interlaced in case I needed it later for broadcast or something like that. In Compressor, you can create a progressive QT that looks pretty good from interlaced footage and then build the DVD from that.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:07:09 pm

[Andy Neil] "You're not viewing individual fields, you're able to view either one (probably the dominant field), or both at the same time."

Option left or right arrow shoves you forward/back one field at a time.

Jeremy


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Andy Neil
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:45:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Option left or right arrow shoves you forward/back one field at a time."

Nice tip. Where'd you find that?

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:51:21 pm

[Andy Neil] "Where'd you find that?"

Sometimes I spend a little time looking though all the keyboard shortcuts (command-option-k).

I type in random stuff and see what comes out the other end. Other times, I try to remap a keyboard shortcut to something I want, and it tells me what I am about to replace.

In this instance, I think I was trying to add a keyboard shortcut to "Show both fields" so I typed in "field" to the search bubble and it showed me the field controls.

Jeremy


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 7:36:39 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Sometimes I spend a little time looking though all the keyboard shortcuts"

What?

You read the manual?

Isn't that what forums are for?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 9:10:24 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "What?

You read the manual?

Isn't that what forums are for?"


:-D Absolutely.


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Robert Brown
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:07:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Lets take a big step back here.

Fcp7 handled interlaced material just fine. "


It did on a basic playback sense but you have no control of field or frame based processing like I had in the linear days and the quality took a big step back because of that. Of course everybody probably got used to frame blended framed based slo mos of field based materials but a 1980's beta-cam slo mo was far better and the K-Scope I used to use gave my every option I would ever want. Sorry but FCP is pretty weak at all of this stuff. Works fine in progressive though.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:27:19 pm

I think you're going to need to be a bit more specific. FCP7 can render to fields and you can turn off frame blending. No you don't have the control as you would in After Effects, for example (where you could stretch 60i to 60p) without third party tools such as Fields Kit.

Jeremy


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Alan Lacey
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 5:41:07 pm

Don't want to hijack this forum into an AE one but would you tell me briefly how I could get my SD 50i to 25p in AE Jeremy.

Cheers Alan

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 6:40:01 pm

[Alan Lacey] "Don't want to hijack this forum into an AE one but would you tell me briefly how I could get my SD 50i to 25p in AE Jeremy."

I'd use compressor to deinterlace.


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Robert Brown
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 7:18:37 pm

[Alan Lacey] "Don't want to hijack this forum into an AE one but would you tell me briefly how I could get my SD 50i to 25p in AE Jeremy."

Bring your footage in to AE. In Interpret Footage which you get by right clicking on a shot in the project window, there are some field settings like upper first or lower if I remember right. Pick one of those, bring your shot into a 25P timeline and render

You can also do it in FCP using the de-interlace plugin. I haven't tried it in compressor..

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 8:00:29 pm

[Robert Brown] "bring your shot into a 25P timeline and render"

There are no "p" timelines in AE.

Field order (or not) is set in the output module before render.


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Robert Brown
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 9:03:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There are no "p" timelines in AE."

Dude what is your deal? I answered the guys question when you didn't and now you're nit picking my answer. But if you are going to nit pick you should get your facts straight. ALL AE timelines are in fact P, but yeah interlacing if any is added on the way out. Jeez. If I've learned anything in 20 years of video it'd be fields and frames. And if you think FCP does great with interlaced well then...

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 9:08:21 pm

When you say add it to a "p" timeline, perhaps that implies there's an "i" timeline? There are just timelines in AE, you can define frame size and frame rate, but not interlacing, so if someone told me to add something to a p timeline in AE, I'd go looking on how to do that. Interlacing is handled in the output module.

Just trying to help and I meant no offense.

Fields Kit offers more controls, as does Compressor, just FYI. You can choose what you'd like/looks best.

Oh, and by the way, FCP7 renders interlacing just fine. I'd be happy to discuss how you think it doesn't, besides the proper rendering of 3:2 pulldown, which FCPX does correctly by the way.


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Robert Brown
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 10:28:54 pm

Well "P" or progressive is one of those words like non-drop frame. The name wouldn't exist if there wasn't this other thing out there as non-drop would be just called time code, and and I guess we would just say fps and there would be no I or P if interlaced had been invented. But AE treats video or frames as P which just means every pixel in the frame gets output at the same time vs interlaced where half goes out as a chunk then the other half right after.

The reason I always thought FCP was weak in this was just from coming from a linear background where vendors who really knew video set the bar. FCP as far as I can tell when doing a slo mo processes full frames and doesn't break apart the fields. I haven't cut sd a while in FCP but I remember having to turn frame blending on for any slo mo which was pretty bad in comparison to Beta SP and Digi Beta and if you turned frame blending off they were totally unacceptable. Yeah there were fields kit, and Twixtor etc but all of that stuff seemed really slow. Avid which I've never been a huge fan of at least gave you different modes for slo mos and they got the closest I'd seen to the way VTSs were before. I always wanted AE like controls in FCP and so the Adobe suite to me is the best for all of that as you can deal with 3:2 pulldown or whatever and it's spot on.

But like I mentioned before progressive works great in FCP. And since here at Fox were 720P we don't have to deal with all of that anymore.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Andy Neil
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 10:54:38 pm

[Robert Brown] "And since here at Fox were 720P we don't have to deal with all of that anymore."

I hear that. I personally want interlaced video to die a slow, agonizing death.

Oh wait, it already is. Maybe it could go a little faster?

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Robert Brown
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 23, 2011 at 11:39:09 pm

Yeah I was really disappointed to see both interlaced and 29.97 still around after HD showed up.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 24, 2011 at 12:05:29 am

HD was 1080i in the 70s.

Had to follow the standards of the time,(especially old satellites I believe, certainly CRTs) which expected interlaced SD.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 24, 2011 at 12:59:04 am

"HD was 1080i in the 70s. "

Early HD was analog and double NTSC/PAL lines so not strictly 1080 as that is a digital pixel dimension. John Logie Beard, the inventor of TV had HD concepts but there was no display technology capable. Interlacing was and still is a useful way of increasing spatial resolution. SD broadcast will be around for a while and it will remain interlaced so this is an issue that must be dealt with on a daily basis by editors and post people like myself.

I use an LCD via Kona3 to display interlace problems like reversed fields, something that is best fixed before deinterlacing as problems can be baked in when deinterlacing, depending on field blending used.

Slo mos with reversed fields cannot be fixed by deinterlacing. There are many reasons why an edit system needs to be able to output a proper reference image to a monitor capable of displaying interlaced and true rec 709 spec for grading.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 24, 2011 at 1:12:55 am

[Michael Gissing] "Early HD was analog and double NTSC/PAL lines so not strictly 1080 as that is a digital pixel dimension."

It was "1035" wasn't it?

And yes, FCPX needs proper monitoring. Nothing new here.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 24, 2011 at 1:22:20 am

1050 lines. Twice NTSC 525. I remember sitting at Narita airport watching Japanese baseball games in HD in the early ninties or visitng the Sony showroom in Ginza and watching demo movies in their small theatre playing off modified 1" video decks.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 24, 2011 at 1:26:29 am

Actually there were lots of different line rates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_high-definition_television_system


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Alan Lacey
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 24, 2011 at 8:01:39 am

A big thank you to all. I've learnt a great deal from this thread. Many thanks to all who have taken the time to post.
Let's hope that interlace and 4:3 die sooner rather than later.

Alan

FlashXDR,XDcamHD,XDcamEX,D9 etc
FCS,AE,Combustion,LiquidSilver,Vegas,Edius,
G5,MBP,Vista64,XP


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Bret Williams
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 25, 2011 at 9:35:54 pm

Why would you not use interlacing? Without it, you're stuck at 30fps at 1080p. Would you rather have the temporal resolution of 720p60 but at 1080 resolution? Until we get 1080p60 1080i is where it's at IMHO. I do a lot of motion graphics, and if you have fine text moving around (say a pan of a newspaper) that you'd actually like to be legible it just can't be done at 30fps unless you're moving real slow. It's a stuttery mess. Motion blur will relieve the stutter, but of course leaves the image, well, blurred.


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Robert Brown
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 26, 2011 at 12:17:17 am

[Bret Williams] "Why would you not use interlacing? "

True. Interlacing was a compromise from the beginning due to limited bandwidth. Those same issues exist today even though much higher bandwidths are available. But if you need the temporal resolution of 60 fps at 1080 then interlaced is the only way to go. Hopefully 1080 60P becomes a reality at some point.

An interesting thing about 720P is in comparison to 1080i, you have a full 720 lines of vertical rez as opposed to 1080i you only have 540 per field so any type of slo-mo at 1080i takes a pretty big hit in sharpness. Of course 1080 24p and 30p are definitely better than 720p but for sports and things where you do a lot of slo-mo, 720 has advantages as you get the full rez at whatever speed.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Andy Mees
Re: Very confused about interlace now
on Nov 28, 2011 at 4:09:24 am

[Michael Gissing] "John Logie Beard, the inventor of TV ..."


Wasn't he the fella in ZZ Top ;-)


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