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tony west
News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 1:43:18 pm

Every time I shoot a press conference these days there is a newspaper set up next to me shooting video.

Papers have figured out that many people are too lazy or just don't want to READ the news anymore. They would rather watch it.

One of the most talked about and watched stories in the country recently was Herman Cain's flub on Libya (this is not a political post follow my point).

If you recall, it was a newspaper that broke that story with video. Back in the day when I started in Network News that would have been us. Television had the lock on that.

Now it's quite different isn't it.

All the networks had to run with that paper's footage.

As you know, papers use DSLR cameras and need to sync audio.

Right now papers tend to just post up the video almost AS IS with very little editing, but that won't stay that way.

There are thousands of papers all over this country who are starting to edit video. Most of their staff didn't go to school to do television but that's where their work is ending up (Cain)

Now………..who stands to capture this huge new market?

Yes, Apple

I have seen the new MC and it looks great, but I don't see papers buying it for their staff to learn over X

The same goes for PrP

Apple saw this coming and I believe now stands to gain thousands of new users in that market place alone. More than any other NLEs

They may not use X in Hollywood right now but if Avid and others can't grow their share at the same pace as Apple or faster, it's going to be hard for them to compete.

Take over new markets first (making it hard for others to expand). Then slowly creep up on the old markets until you have both. It's actually brilliant.

The main reason I bought X was because I liked many of the tools and I knew it could be very useful in sports and other projects, but also because I think it will be a big player in the market place in the future so I wanted to learn it. I like to keep up with new stuff in general so I can be competitive.
I can always buy the new Avid and get back up to speed if I need to. It hasn't changed much.

For now it's X

The Cain story was made more powerful by the video. It wouldn't have had the same impact if they just wrote about it. This is their future and they know it.

Someone asked on here who the target was for FCP X

I believe it has many targets, but one can be found in
Herman Cain's answer, or should I say, non-answer.

Tony West


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Dennis Radeke
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 2:09:34 pm

An interesting idea but I think in this case you might be counting out Adobe prematurely. A lot of the layout of papers and almost all magazines are done with Adobe InDesign. Many of the digital magazines front end is done with the same plus Adobe DPS (Digital Publishing System).

Large publishers often purchase Master Collection which includes both the publishing portion plus the video portion. With strong metadata workflows to connect the video with the portion of the mag or paper, it is a compelling event for publishers. Combine that with Adobe's recent acquisition of Auditude which provide contextual ad insertion for these same companies and I think that you've at least got a fair fight on your hands.

And in case you didn't already know...

Dennis - Adobe guy.. ;-)


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Oliver Peters
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 2:54:38 pm

Gosh, I guess if Sony, Quantel, Grass Valley, BMD DaVinci, Autodesk and others don't specifically and almost exclusively cater to this market, they'll be out of business, too. I guess that's why Canon also developed the C300. ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 3:17:07 pm

Actually Sony and Grass Valley do cater to this market with Sony Vegas and Grass Valley Edius. Edius would probably be the go to NLE for this sort of application, incredibly fast, can handle anything on the timeline with no rendering, not heavy on the graphics and audio side.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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tony west
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 4:19:10 pm

I don't think those you named will go out of business. I just don't think they will grow as fast as apple.
I like Autodesk. It looks awesome. I hope it's out there forever.

My point is, people think they made a stupid clueless move with X

I think they didn't.

There are other phones out there other than the Iphone, it just doesn't seem like it when you look around the room sometimes : )


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Oliver Peters
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 4:48:44 pm

[tony west] "My point is, people think they made a stupid clueless move with X. I think they didn't."

I'm not so sure most people here would actually agree that it was clueless. However, in any case, Autodesk (particularly Smoke) is about as far away from this concept as an NLE could possibly be. The concern and concept are interesting in the theoretical. The real question is - assuming Apple doesn't grow FCP X beyond this direction - is it a software design that you would personally find beneficial in the work you do? For me, I could care less whether my local newspaper photographer uses Media Composer, FCP X or iMovie. It has zero bearing on any of the projects I post and those range from simple, short jobs to the web all the way up to occasional indie features. Growing FCP X to best help a larger market doing news stories for the web doesn't add the features I need for the other 90% of my projects.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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tony west
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 5:32:16 pm

I hear you, I'm trying to figure it out like many others.

I don't care what they use much either but I don't want to invest in a product that's not going to be around in the future so I'm looking for clues in the trends to see where things are going.

Many of the new features help me or will help me more in the future.

Nobody I work for wants to pay overtime these days. It's like a dirty word. I'm asked to do more and more and all folks care about is the time it takes me to do it.

If I can find clips faster for Sports Highlights that means I can spend more time being creative.

That's the whole reason I got into this field to begin with. I want to create.

Something as simple as that skimmer gets me up and down the timelines fast.

Watch sports on TV and all you see is time ramping all over the place. I think that's easier.

No matter how good it looks someone walks in and wants a change so they can justify their job.
I think that timeline makes that easy.

The other thing is I like Motion. If they would have dropped Motion I would have moved on, but they didn't.

I was on a shoot yesterday and my friend pulled out his Iphone and was showing everyone the new features. It looked really cool. I have the second phone that came out so I can't get those features.
My phone was awesome when it first came out but yesterday it felt very old : (

The iphone has made great leaps since it came out and I think X will do the same.

Those are my thoughts Oliver.

And As far as Canon goes with their c300 I think they had to go that direction. Sales of point and shoots are down because people use their phones to take pictures. (I have a nice Canon that just sits)

The only place for them to go is up to another market. I would have done that also if I were them.


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Oliver Peters
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 5:46:09 pm

[tony west] " but I don't want to invest in a product that's not going to be around in the future so I'm looking for clues in the trends to see where things are going."

All your points are quite valid. However, investing in a product with a future is a bit of a sore point for many. Clearly all the time invested in FCP 1-7 and the FCS suite is now completely thrown out the window. Someone with FCP 7 chops and someone with no previous NLE chops is just about at the same level. If you want to leverage what you already know, then FCP X is the wrong tool. But that doesn't mean it won't be the tool that dominates in the future... UNTIL Apple changes it AGAIN ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 7:02:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "If you want to leverage what you already know, then FCP X is the wrong tool. But that doesn't mean it won't be the tool that dominates in the future... UNTIL Apple changes it AGAIN ;-)"

Oliver,

I understand what you're saying - and if you think "what you already know" is largely about OPERATION, then I'd agree.

But I think increasingly that if you peg "what you already know" to tool operation you're playing an increasingly losing game no matter which NLE you operate. The market has nearly totally devalued the "operation" skills of the video editor. There are multiple millions of people around the world with with "NLE operation" skills today. Yes, fewer at the top end, but everyone who is currently NOT at the "top end" are likely getting better every day with practice - and that means "operational excellence in NLE driving" is going to be less and less a competitive advantage in the future. What I believe is left in the wake of that are the intangible skills of judgement, taste, and business skills. Not editing prowess.

I think Tony's story is a big deal. (and thanks for posting it here, Tony!)

It's a glimpse into a world where video editing skills are rapidly becoming GENERAL business skills - not specialist talents as they used to be.

If that's true, then the future belongs to tools that are the MOST accessible to the most people who need to edit.

I actually agree with Dennis's post about how Adobe has tools that are already in the newsroom environment - and to the extent they can leverage those, they might have some advantages in that area. But it's going to be a tough battle. They are up against a monster competitor in Apple. And to make matters worse for them, Apple just took the BIG gamble and STRIPPED much of the core complexity out of their flagship NLE product.

Those same "features" that pro editors hate - the magnetic timeline, clip collision avoidance, looking at video in a vertical arrangement of connected elements rather than exclusively as discrete chunks over a rigid time base - those things might be mothers milk to new business editors who don't have to overcome too much baggage about how editing is SUPPOSED to be done - but rather can remain focuses on how it IS done in the new software.

I would imagine the Adobe is looking at what Apple did with X and thinking about their own "future strategy" for editing in a world of more mobile devices and on-line outlets - rather than the "broadcast" legacy of things like the Viewer/Canvas reflection of the old Preview/Program paradigm.

We all know things are changing.

The question is which company is changing WITH their users - and which companies will keep trying to CHANGE their users to fit their companies needs. (an argument that can clearly be "spun" for or against either approach, IMO btw!)

Both Apple and Adobe, (and AVID and SONY et al) have the capability to make great tools for this new generation. The only untold story is which will figure out the right strategy.

The Apple bet is pretty clear. They value individual empowerment over catering to the structural needs of organizations - betting that in the future, individual user demands will increasingly trump what IT dictates. (kinda like what's happening with people bringing their own customized laptops to work and businesses caving to the onslaught of the iPad culture!) That works in SOME companies, not all. But it appears to be an increasing trend.

So I think the real question is whose tools will prove to be more accessible to the most important market of the future.

And the story is still totally undecided on that.

FWIW

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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tony west
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 7:39:30 pm

Thanks Bill.


You make some good points man...

"It's a glimpse into a world where video editing skills are rapidly becoming GENERAL business skills - not specialist talents as they used to be."

I liked it better when we had it all to ourselves : )

My concern was that our wages would be driven down by everybody and their mama trying to do what we do.

Guys on this board are smart and I know have talent and anybody that wants it done right is gonna come get us. No mater what we are cutting on : )


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Oliver Peters
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:00:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "But I think increasingly that if you peg "what you already know" to tool operation you're playing an increasingly losing game no matter which NLE you operate."

Sure. No argument from me. I've always felt that if you define yourself based on the specific tools rather than skill set, you are diminishing your value. The difference here though is that the concepts FCP 7 used were generally common to nearly all popular NLEs, so transferring your actual "hands on" skills from one to the other was relatively easy. That's not the case with FCP X, since in the words of Firesign Theater, "everything you know is wrong". ;-)

In the end, if I'm hiring an editor, I am ultimately interested in the exact NLE he or she knows how to operate. More often than not, I've seen people hired who claimed they know FCP, Avid, etc. but didn't and ultimately did a poor job. For example, I would never hire an editor to cut on FCP 7 or Avid if their only experience was on FCP X unless there was adequate training time and evaluation time before putting them on a real job.

[Bill Davis] "I think Tony's story is a big deal."

Yes, but it's hardly new. Apple long ago adopted the view that video literacy was important. Canon stated when the 5D was launched that this was because of interest from news organizations. ProApps folks have publicly stated that they had interest from organizations like the BBC to provide something far more simple than FCP 7, as they were already contemplating iMovie. CNN just canned a bunch of folks exactly because of this trend.

[Bill Davis] "They are up against a monster competitor in Apple. "

True, but there are also news organizations who have put out purchasing edicts against Apple because of their belief that Apple is an unreliable vendor. I'm sure that won't stick, but for them, the MacPro (or not) issue is of vital concern - more so than FCP X.

Unfortunately the sad fact today is that many companies are hiring people to do video jobs who are completely untrained and unqualified for the task. I see it in local news and corporate environments every day. From that POV, then yes FCP X is the future. Part of the logic expressed to me personally by Apple is that FCP 7 was actually quite confusing to many customers. As a result of their muddling through things like the multiple set-up options, they were producing crappy results. By design FCP X is limited and restricted in certain ways to aid this situation. It can't do everything FCP 7 can, but untrained folks will be less intimidated and less likely to put out bad results because they couldn't figure out the application. That sentiment came straight from ProApps.

[Bill Davis] "The question is which company is changing WITH their users - and which companies will keep trying to CHANGE their users to fit their companies needs. (an argument that can clearly be "spun" for or against either approach, IMO btw!)"

Agreed.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 12:11:24 am

[Oliver Peters] "In the end, if I'm hiring an editor, I am ultimately interested in the exact NLE he or she knows how to operate. "

This, to me, might be the key phrase here.

That meets YOUR needs. But possibly not the needs of the much broader market.

In the past, companies had to "hire editors." Which is what your business model still supports.

Today, companies seem to be less and less "hiring editors" and instead are more focused on "seeking content".

And they don't particularly care if that content is created by a formally trained editor in your shop, a journalist who cut something on his laptop while waiting in the departure lounge at Heathrow, or some kid had his cel phone camera rolling when the gas station caught fire - posted his "edited" results on YouTube initially for his buddies - then watched it go viral.

The content drives the economic results - NOT the way it was produced.

That's the world where FCP-X "fits like a glove"

You can certainly determine that YOUR guy must use the tool you approve of.

But outside of your shop, the forces changing the very NATURE of video editing as a practice are uncontrollable. And with open access to information and skills development in today's society - all THREE players will be getting better as editors every day.

That's the struggle here. "Editing" ain't what it used to be. For better or worse.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Oliver Peters
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 12:23:18 am

[Bill Davis] "This, to me, might be the key phrase here. That meets YOUR needs. But possibly not the needs of the much broader market."

My comment isn't about me personally, as I don't normally hire others. That's speaking from my days as a facility manager, but it's still true for the shops at which I freelance. They hire based on who can run the existing tools in addition to their abilities as an editor. I have found this also to extend to location services companies, such as those who supply video support for conventions.

[Bill Davis] "And they don't particularly care if that content is created by a formally trained editor in your shop, a journalist who cut something on his laptop while waiting in the departure lounge at Heathrow, or some kid had his cel phone camera rolling when the gas station caught fire - posted his "edited" results on YouTube initially for his buddies - then watched it go viral."

I think that theory applies to production companies, maybe, but it doesn't generally apply to editors. I don't particularly see companies lowering their expectations as much as they lower the budgets. They may want to have the "cool, current, look" but they will also reject crap.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 12:29:01 am

[Oliver Peters] " I don't particularly see companies lowering their expectations as much as they lower the budgets. They may want to have the "cool, current, look" but they will also reject crap."

A) Agreed, sadly.
and
B) I sincerely hope so!

Peace.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Herb Sevush
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 5:45:08 pm

"There are multiple millions of people around the world with with "NLE operation" skills today. Yes, fewer at the top end, but everyone who is currently NOT at the "top end" are likely getting better every day with practice - and that means "operational excellence in NLE driving" is going to be less and less a competitive advantage in the future. What I believe is left in the wake of that are the intangible skills of judgement, taste, and business skills. Not editing prowess."

I am not in competition with those millions. My editorial skills are partially made up of two of the three intangibles you mentioned, judgement and taste, along with story sense and imagination. The editorial tools I need have to let me express those skills quickly and easily.

"Those same "features" that pro editors hate - the magnetic timeline, clip collision avoidance, looking at video in a vertical arrangement of connected elements rather than exclusively as discrete chunks over a rigid time base - those things might be mothers milk to new business editors who don't have to overcome too much baggage about how editing is SUPPOSED to be done - but rather can remain focuses on how it IS done in the new software."

All of this ease for newbies comes at the cost of making the software difficult to use to accomplish what so many of us here need. Nothing I do is in any way similar to a print journalist putting his Iphone interview on his newspapers website.

And guess what, in the future there will still be growing audiences for the kind of work I do.

http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/americans-watching-more-t...

Traditional TV viewership is still growing, not shrinking. Given the enormous difference in size of audience, how many decades will it take for internet viewership to catch up? And by internet viewership I really mean the viewership for videos with no production value, the kind of work where the editorial skills of the millions is supposed to satisfy the entertainment demands of the billions?

For a news story anything goes, including a telephone call-in with a still photo. For a viral cat video, I'm sure iMovie will suffice. For Thursday nite at 9 O'clock, post skills still matter, and will do so for the foreseeable future. And those skills pay better.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Roth Weiss
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 6:03:49 pm

[Herb Sevush] "For a news story anything goes, including a telephone call-in with a still photo. For a viral cat video, I'm sure iMovie will suffice. For Thursday nite at 9 O'clock, post skills still matter, and will do so for the foreseeable future. And those skills pay better."

Good points Herb. The argument that the future of media belongs to vastly simplified applications and to would-be craftsmen and craftswomen without traditional, hard won editing skills and experience, is just one more long reach for those trying to make the best out of Apple's decision to EOL Final Cut Pro.

Had Apple simultaneously released FCPX and the FCS 4 most were expecting, I wonder how many here would be shouting the virtues of X?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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tony west
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 7:20:56 pm

"Clearly all the time invested in FCP 1-7 and the FCS suite is now completely thrown out the window. Someone with FCP 7 chops and someone with no previous NLE chops is just about at the same level. If you want to leverage what you already know, then FCP X is the wrong tool."

You completely nailed this!!!

It ticked me off also brother.

If I didn't like so many things it could do I would have thrown it out the window.

Your Motion skills will transfer just fine.

Stuff is moving so fast in so many directions it's hard to keep track.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 7:59:45 pm

[tony west] " If I didn't like so many things it could do I would have thrown it out the window."

But really, what can it do that others can't? It seems to be the price point and iron control of the timeline is all that separates it. Maybe it's easier to use to some extent, has the media management stuff 1-2 shots, (just off the top of my head) but none of the others are really that challenging and offer things that seemingly to me far outweigh the new features...

Are those the things that separate it for you?


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Steve Connor
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:04:34 pm

[Jamie Franklin] "But really, what can it do that others can't? It seems to be the price point and iron control of the timeline is all that separates it. Maybe it's easier to use to some extent, has the media management stuff 1-2 shots, (just off the top of my head) but none of the others are really that challenging and offer things that seemingly to me far outweigh the new features..."

If I had to choose one thing that I like most, it's the skimmer and the ability to look through rushes quicker than any other NLE I've ever used.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Jamie Franklin
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:09:37 pm

[Steve Connor] "If I had to choose one thing that I like most, it's the skimmer and the ability to look through rushes quicker than any other NLE I've ever used."

The elimination of a click though? I can skim through any media with the source viewer. I'm forced to click or slog through jkl keys but it's not a feature that's "missing" anywhere else...just the click


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Steve Connor
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:17:56 pm

[Jamie Franklin] "The elimination of a click though? I can skim through any media with the source viewer. I'm forced to click or slog through jkl keys but it's not a feature that's "missing" anywhere else...just the click"

That's what you might think, and I wasn't sure when I first started using FCPX, but the benefit becomes clear when you are working on real projects with it, getting through hours of footage is noticeably quicker.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Jamie Franklin
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:28:39 pm

I found it more annoying than anything. Is there a way to turn it off? lol

My primary annoyance with this gui is all that automation...running the mouse over a clip and hearing weidhwuiefhurehgfireug started to grate.

It would be a nice surprise if it was a custom feature.


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Steve Connor
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:34:04 pm

[Jamie Franklin] "I found it more annoying than anything. Is there a way to turn it off? lol

My primary annoyance with this gui is all that automation...running the mouse over a clip and hearing weidhwuiefhurehgfireug started to grate.

It would be a nice surprise if it was a custom feature.
"


Yes you can turn both audio and video skimming off, and I did when I first started using it, but now I leave video skimming on

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Jamie Franklin
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 9:39:32 pm

cool beans. thanks


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David Roth Weiss
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 10:09:32 pm

[Jamie Franklin] "The elimination of a click though? I can skim through any media with the source viewer. I'm forced to click or slog through jkl keys but it's not a feature that's "missing" anywhere else...just the click"

I don't get it Jamie, the logic is clear, what are you missing? Abandoning ten years of legacy projects, completely retraining staff, and changing the vernacular of 110 years of editing terminology, just to avoid that click and a few clip collisions seems completely logical.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Steve Connor
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 10:20:01 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "I don't get it Jamie, the logic is clear, what are you missing? Abandoning ten years of legacy projects, completely retraining staff, and changing the vernacular of 110 years of editing terminology, just to avoid that click and a few clip collisions seems completely logical.
"


I'm sure they were the only reasons they did it.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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David Lawrence
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 10:59:02 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "[Jamie Franklin] "The elimination of a click though? I can skim through any media with the source viewer. I'm forced to click or slog through jkl keys but it's not a feature that's "missing" anywhere else...just the click"

I don't get it Jamie, the logic is clear, what are you missing? Abandoning ten years of legacy projects, completely retraining staff, and changing the vernacular of 110 years of editing terminology, just to avoid that click and a few clip collisions seems completely logical."


My read is that Jamie is actually defending legacy here. I think he's saying that skimming is not a "missing" feature, that it's easily accomplished in the source viewer with a single click. That's my experience as well.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Jamie Franklin
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 11:32:17 pm

And a nice resizable window making match framing that much easier...

Seems a lot to give up for a missing click...

Dave was just being facetious


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Bill Davis
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 12:27:25 am

Look, respectfully, to all those who keep asking "since (other software) does this too, what's better?"

The clear and indisputable answer to this is as follows.

They RESET the software to ZERO and started out fresh.

Every line of code is clean, clear, and purpose built to do what they wanted. Every feature built into the old had to EARN it's way into the new build. Every line of FCP-X code is optimized for the hardware world we live in today. The stuff they built for YESTERDAY's editing environments - that's the stuff they left out. (And precisely what hurts so many with a serious requirement to support hardware, software, and necessary workflows as they were done back in LEGACY.)

Many people see the "clean slate" approach as the PROBLEM.
Some of us see it as the smartest possible step towards a cleaner, brighter future for the software.
The FCP equivalent of ZERO BASED BUDGETING.

Time will tell.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Lawrence
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 12:45:22 am

[Bill Davis] "Every line of code is clean, clear, and purpose built to do what they wanted. Every feature built into the old had to EARN it's way into the new build. Every line of FCP-X code is optimized for the hardware world we live in today. The stuff they built for YESTERDAY's editing environments - that's the stuff they left out. (And precisely what hurts so many with a serious requirement to support hardware, software, and necessary workflows as they were done back in LEGACY.)"

Bill, from the definitive tone of your statements, it sounds to me like you've had remarkable direct access to the engineers and designers of FCPX. Is there anything else from your conversations with them that you're able to share?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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David Roth Weiss
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 12:57:40 am

[Bill Davis] "Every line of code is clean, clear, and purpose built to do what they wanted. Every feature built into the old had to EARN it's way into the new build. Every line of FCP-X code is optimized for the hardware world we live in today. The stuff they built for YESTERDAY's editing environments - that's the stuff they left out. (And precisely what hurts so many with a serious requirement to support hardware, software, and necessary workflows as they were done back in LEGACY.)"

Are you trying out for the Apple PR team Bill? If so, your rhetoric and hyperbole are really top notch. I'm sure many here would recommend you for the gig if you'd just stop laying it all on us at every opportunity.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
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POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Bill Davis
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 1:21:18 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Are you trying out for the Apple PR team Bill? If so, your rhetoric and hyperbole are really top notch. I'm sure many here would recommend you for the gig if you'd just stop laying it all on us at every opportunity.
"


Make you an even-up trade, David.

I'll stop as someone who talks about what I LIKE about FCP-X - and in return, you get the the folks who keep coming here saying "but (insert MY software) already does that - so that means FCP-X is actually really lame and unoriginal.

It would be a win-win, no?

Seriously, you can't tell me that for months the tone hasn't been somewhere between dismissive to downright HOSTILE to FCP-X.

What's the problem with a voice that's laudatory about it?

If I'm saying something that's not true - or even something that's debatable, you KNOW that there are plenty of voices ready to jump in and gleefully post about how I'm wrong!

And in this particular case, isn't it a little skitzo that people are saying it's BAD because it's TOTALLY different than what they expected - and then questioning that that very same things that cause it to be so different (new code) isn't a blessing?

I'd get that argument if the code in FCP-X wasn't effective or didn't DO editing. But it does. So the rest is just perception and opinion and wants, needs and personal preferences.

Simple as that.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Bill Davis
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 1:09:15 am

[David Lawrence] "Bill, from the definitive tone of your statements, it sounds to me like you've had remarkable direct access to the engineers and designers of FCPX. Is there anything else from your conversations with them that you're able to share?"

I WISH.

That view is from I saw and heard at the SuperMeet introduction. They talked, IIRC about starting with a clean slate. And the program they introduced was OBVIOUSLY not a simple "tweak" of the Legacy code base that I could tell. And clearly the fact that X is built, not around Quicktime (as Legacy clearly was), but rather AV Foundation and Core Video, kinda supports that as well, don't you think?

I'm not a programmer, so this is all supposition on my part. But I do listen to when the smart guys are talking, even if I don't always totally understand what they're saying. ; )

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Lawrence
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 5:32:19 am

[Bill Davis] "I WISH.

That view is from I saw and heard at the SuperMeet introduction. They talked, IIRC about starting with a clean slate. And the program they introduced was OBVIOUSLY not a simple "tweak" of the Legacy code base that I could tell. And clearly the fact that X is built, not around Quicktime (as Legacy clearly was), but rather AV Foundation and Core Video, kinda supports that as well, don't you think?

I'm not a programmer, so this is all supposition on my part. But I do listen to when the smart guys are talking, even if I don't always totally understand what they're saying. ; )"


I hear ya. And I also understand wanting to present a positive case for FCPX. This is a debate forum and I enjoy the debate. But I think it's important to be clear about what's fact and what's opinion. Maybe it's just a style thing but for example:

[Bill Davis] "Every line of code is clean, clear, and purpose built to do what they wanted. Every feature built into the old had to EARN it's way into the new build. Every line of FCP-X code is optimized for the hardware world we live in today. "

This is a statement of absolute fact. A new visitor looking to this forum for information, not knowing where you're coming from could easily read it that way. If you've talked to the engineers and they've told you this, awesome, please say more. If not, then I think you should expect some push back when you make this kind of argument.

Also, you do know it's common netiquette that anything in all caps IS CONSIDERED YELLING, right?

Just say'in ;)

_______________________
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Bill Davis
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 6:47:00 am

[David Lawrence] "This is a statement of absolute fact. A new visitor looking to this forum for information, not knowing where you're coming from could easily read it that way. If you've talked to the engineers and they've told you this, awesome, please say more. If not, then I think you should expect some push back when you make this kind of argument.

Also, you do know it's common netiquette that anything in all caps IS CONSIDERED YELLING, right?

Just say'in ;)
"


Yeah, and push back is fair. I can handle that.

As to the caps thing, I struggle with that. In all my years of writing, I had access to quotes, italics, bolds and underscores. As I migrated to newsgroup posts, those kind of conditional markings all too often ended up looking like: "what I <%said%> meant no offense... so I kinda devolved into using caps as a reliable emphasis tool. I know that in strict "texting" circles it's considered yelling, and I try not to do it, but I find myself in mid thought and feel the need to EMPHASIZE a word for meaning and I'm too stuck in my traditional keyboarding ways to catch myself FAR too often.

(It was easier for the decade I wrote on deadline for the magazine, since there was a copy editor between me and my readers to make sure I didn't screw up like that. I miss the convenience!)

I apologize for any impression of impoliteness that it communicates. That's never my intent. And I'll try harder to remember it in the future.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Lawrence
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 7:41:54 am

[Bill Davis] "I try not to do it, but I find myself in mid thought and feel the need to EMPHASIZE a word for meaning and I'm too stuck in my traditional keyboarding ways to catch myself FAR too often."

Yeah, I hear that muscle memory thing can be a real pain ;)

I like italics for emphasis but everyone has their own preference. The style buttons work well here but if you're used to writing fast I can see how they may slow you down.

[Bill Davis] "I apologize for any impression of impoliteness that it communicates. That's never my intent. And I'll try harder to remember it in the future."

Thanks and no worries. I enjoy your posts and the debate. Just want to help keep the focus on ideas rather than writing/communication styles! :)

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Jamie Franklin
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 2:15:41 am

Posts like this make me wonder if there is a case of Stockholm syndrome being exposed here...


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Scott Sheriff
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 2:43:07 am

[Bill Davis] "They RESET the software to ZERO and started out fresh.

Every line of code is clean, clear, and purpose built to do what they wanted. Every feature built into the old had to EARN it's way into the new build. Every line of FCP-X code is optimized for the hardware world we live in today. The stuff they built for YESTERDAY's editing environments - that's the stuff they left out. (And precisely what hurts so many with a serious requirement to support hardware, software, and necessary workflows as they were done back in LEGACY.)"


Assuming that is 100% true, how long do you think it will remain that way?
Do you think apple will re-write the code from scratch every time they decide to cave on restoring FCS functions that they left out of X?
Fat chance.
Or will they just kludge the new code on top of the old? Hmm... Pretty soon your shiny new X will just be another piece of bloatware like all the other 'one size fits all' single GUI, multi-purpose apps out there.
The old expression 'form follows function' is certainly true and eventually a lot of missing stuff will be put into X because there is a reason it was in FCS and other NLE's in the first place. I suspect once the shininess wears off, and the hacks drop out of the picture because they can't make a living charging 15 dollars an hour for editing, the survivors who insist on sticking with X will clamoring for the missing features to keep up with everyone else on other platforms. Because the way it looks right now, most that submit stories of using X for real jobs, are basically using it as an overpriced plugin for another NLE. I doubt anyone that has to make a living doing this will have the patience to do it like that forever.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 11:35:23 pm

[David Lawrence] "My read is that Jamie is actually defending legacy here. I think he's saying that skimming is not a "missing" feature, that it's easily accomplished in the source viewer with a single click. That's my experience as well."

I was being a just little facetious David. :)

BTW, I met your bro Dan the other night, who came all the way to the LAFCPUG just to see me guruing. For the record, and I'm sure Dan will attest, I never said one word in jest about FCP X to the group.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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David Lawrence
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 12:54:54 am

[David Roth Weiss] "I was being a just little facetious David. :)"

Aha, missed it ;)

[David Roth Weiss] "BTW, I met your bro Dan the other night, who came all the way to the LAFCPUG just to see me guruing. For the record, and I'm sure Dan will attest, I never said one word in jest about FCP X to the group."

Yes, he mentioned it and said he enjoyed meeting you and the presentations very much. I'm heading down and will be there for a week starting Tues. for Thanksgiving. Bro said you're out of town during that time so I guess it'll have to be next time for us to all get together for a drink.

_______________________
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David Roth Weiss
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 4:46:23 pm

[David Lawrence] "Bro said you're out of town during that time so I guess it'll have to be next time for us to all get together for a drink."

Next time, for sure.

Have a happy T-giving Holiday.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Helmut Kobler
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:16:55 pm

I think you make a very valid point, Tony. Apple is positioned to capture this market. The price point is $299. It's part of the Apple brand, and most journalists I've run into are very comfortable with that. Plus, for pure editing work and prep for the web, I think X's interface is more streamlined and easier to use than the competition.

-------------------
Documentary Camera in Los Angeles
http://www.lacameraman.com


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Brad Spinoza
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 4:58:45 pm

I think FCX is a great choice for taking in DSLR footage, syncing audio, and cutting a basic news package in a hurry. For backpack journalism and one-man banding with a DSLR, FCX is a strong offering. The competing Avid product for this market is not Media Composer, it's NewsCutter.

As newspapers get more sophisticated about video, they'll probably adopt a workflow similar to television news organizations: Avid is firmly entreanched in this market. I have not seen the version of NewsCutter that Avid just released. But they apear to be continuing to build a very appealing product tailored to professional newsgathering workflow.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 5:33:41 pm

[Brad Spinoza] "As newspapers get more sophisticated about video, they'll probably adopt a workflow similar to television news organizations: Avid is firmly entreanched in this market. I have not seen the version of NewsCutter that Avid just released. But they apear to be continuing to build a very appealing product tailored to professional newsgathering workflow."

I obviously have my point of view, but I would be curious to have you answer the question why you think this way?


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Brad Spinoza
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 7:10:06 pm

My experience is anecdotal and somewhat limited, I admit. I have not seen the Adobe workflow deployed in a news environment. It sounds like a very compelling solution integrated with InDesign.

I have seen the NewsCutter and Active Content Manager deployed in two print newsrooms. The speed and workflow are very impressive. For organizations that want to get from camera to finished as quickly as possible, it's a battle-tested end-to-end solution.

If Adobe is as entrenched in print newsrooms as Avid is in TV newsrooms, my guess is that they'll come up with an equally appealing workflow. The main point I was trying to make is that workflow is a huge factor in news production. That's the main reason I think Apple and Final Cut may not be as poised to dominate the news market as some may think.


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Joseph W. Bourke
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 7:44:50 pm

Brad -

AVID has actually lost ground in some television news markets. The station I was former Art Director for, bought the AVID line several years ago, buying four seats of Newscutter, a Unity mass storage setup, and it set us back hugely as far as productivity went, not to mention the dollars invested. Our ownership drank the AVID cool-aid to the tune of millions in all of the 20 plus markets where they owned stations.

When the dust cleared, our productivity went down by roughly 40 percent due to constant problems with the Unity system, which really required AVID trained engineers on site to maintain it. The software was quirky and slow, and we were promised an upgrade path to HD via a very exensive card, which was never manufactured (they changed their minds).

These 20 plus stations are now entirely run with the CS5.5 Production Premium suite, and Adobe has even put their engineers on the job, making sure that their software works well with the ENPS newsroom systems. Matter of fact, I just found the news release - this switchover happened back in 2009:

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200909/HearstTelevi...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


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tony west
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 7:58:50 pm

I'm friends with many of the still guys in my town. I have know them for years (we cover all the same events) and I speak with them about tech stuff a lot.

When they were first told to shoot video a lot of them hated it. It just wasn't what they wanted to do.

I remember them sulking about it like it was yesterday.

They were forced into it.

These guys (my friends) don't know anything about Avid

They are super Mac heads so they have used Imovie.

I see them just going right into X

Remember, they just want to get it done. It's not their passion like us. They are going to go with the easiest product they know.

Did you see the Cain video? They didn't put any titles on that stuff. Just put it up.

I could give them a demo on X and I would have them inside of 10 secs


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David Lazaro Saz
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 3:22:37 am

[tony west] "They are super Mac heads so they have used Imovie."

If they only run on Macs, then they can't use the latest version of AVID NewsCutter. According to the software requirements, it needs Windows 7 and an NVIDIA Quadro FX card.

That alone gives an edge to Final Cut Pro X and Premiere Pro in their environment.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: News
on Nov 19, 2011 at 8:54:10 pm

Thanks. I think there are a lot of variables here but if I were to state them it wouldn't be very classy, so I think it's best to say that it will be interesting to see this thing play out. Thanks for sharing your opinion. ;-)


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: News
on Nov 20, 2011 at 4:23:14 pm

Tony,


I am not much knowledgeable in the area of news, but it strikes me that these organizations would/should be looking at archival capabilities in terms of media systems. They'll be wanting access to raw material and edits from a vast array of sources, across a network, and they'll want to be able to find it quickly - 5 years from now, 10 years from now, etc.

Final Cut Server comes to mind. FCPX clearly doesn't have that capability now.


Franz.


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