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John Christie
Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 6:55:20 am

Black Magic just released a few software updates and this one caught my eye:


HyperDeck Studio

We have been asked by a lot of HyperDeck Studio users about compressed video recording, and we have been working hard on this. We are announcing today that we will support DNxHD recording and playback to MXF files. These are fully compatible with Media Composer 6 and are a broadcast industry standard.


If this was a year ago, don't you think it would have been ProRes rather than DNxHD? Black Magic ain't no dummies, they can see which way the pendulum is swinging.

Cheers

John C


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Ben Scott
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 9:41:44 am

shame ad stream wont accept MXF yet but does prores

once its a file deliverable for tapeless delivery it becomes far more interesting

all down to where you deliver to

but yes useful for avid


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Brian Mulligan
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 12:37:17 pm

DG Fastchannel accepts DNxHD.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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Craig RussillRoy
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 6:02:06 pm

Hey Ben !

Happy to chat to you on your requirements - we mention ProresHQ on our delivery spec but work hard on integrating with you.

I have been at Adstream for 10 years now and we have seen a lot of codecs come and go - coming from a Post Production background myself I am always keen to test technologies, but on the other hand we need to rope in all the codecs we accept or our tech specs would be 1000s of pages !

As Adstream has 40 offices around the world what neck of the world are you in ?

Adstream London, England

4 x Mac Pros, FCP7, 4 x Flip Factories, 35 x Rhozet Carbon Coders, Offices Globally


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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 2:08:20 pm

It may be related to the licensing involved with Apple ProRes. Of course a year ago it may have been worth those fees. AJA KiPro records to ProRes for example. The reason why only Telestream Episode Engine records to ProRes (and not the lower cost versions of Episode) is the license costs I believe.



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Rafael Amador
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 3:35:34 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It may be related to the licensing involved with Apple ProRes. Of course a year ago it may have been worth those fees. AJA KiPro records to ProRes for example. The reason why only Telestream Episode Engine records to ProRes (and not the lower cost versions of Episode) is the license costs I believe."
Is that expensive?
The Atom Ninja records Prores and costs less than 1K.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 4:00:09 pm

[Rafael Amador] "The Atom Ninja records Prores and costs less than 1K."

There's a lot more to Episode Engine that ProRes. In fact adding ProRes didn't seem to impact the price of Engine.

It would be interesting to know why Blackmagic doesn't include ProRes. ProRes playback (and certainly recording) is not specific to FCP although it certainly "popularized" it.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 4:20:41 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It would be interesting to know why Blackmagic doesn't include ProRes. ProRes playback (and certainly recording) is not specific to FCP although it certainly "popularized" it."

BMD is also releasing DaVinci Resolve for Windows [link].

Since BMD is pursuing a cross-platform strategy, I can understand why they wouldn't want to tie their customers into a proprietary codec that works well on only one platform.

DNxHD is not only Avid's preferred compressed HD codec, it's also a SMPTE standard (VC-3) with freely-available source codec [link].

I'll be curious to see if the industry's reluctance to accept FCPX also leads to pushback against ProRes, thus driving more acquisition away from ProRes, thus driving more editors away from FCPX. This may be a vicious cycle.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 5:41:15 pm

Avid Media Composer 6 encodes to ProRes QT (on the Mac). So now Avid can deliver to those clients that still are based on ProRes deliverables. But I just wrapped up an online of a series for National Geographic that wanted DNxHD Quicktimes with embedded audio.

Two years ago was the age of ProRes devices at NAB. This year will be the age of DNxHD...and we will see more broadcast deliverables switching that way.

But again, this is the BROADCAST market we are talking about here. Apple doesn't really care about broadcast anymore... *snicker*

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 8:02:06 pm

[Shane Ross] "Avid Media Composer 6 encodes to ProRes QT (on the Mac). So now Avid can deliver to those clients that still are based on ProRes deliverables. But I just wrapped up an online of a series for National Geographic that wanted DNxHD Quicktimes with embedded audio. "

I haven't touched MC6 yet. Is it smooth enough for an all-ProRes workflow on the Mac? Can you use AMA with ProRes Quicktime media comfortably before rendering out to ProRes, or would you still prefer a standard import/transcode?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 8:06:19 pm

[Walter Soyka] " Is it smooth enough for an all-ProRes workflow on the Mac?"

Absolutely! Very smooth.

[Walter Soyka] "Can you use AMA with ProRes Quicktime media comfortably before rendering out to ProRes"

Yes. Or you can fast import to ProRes MXF if you want. Working with footage via AMA still has minor hiccups here and there, like with AAF for audio possibly, or export same as source. Always better to do MXF if you can.

[Walter Soyka] "or would you still prefer a standard import/transcode?"

Depends on the deadline. I always prefer to work with the media that is optimized for the NLE I am using. What might take a little while longer in the beginning always saves me time in the end, or while editing. But, I have edited with ProRes via AMA when I was beta testing, and it was just like normal. I only did a small project though...not a full 45 min, or 90 min show.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 8:11:19 pm

Good to know -- thank you, Shane.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Paul Jay
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
on Nov 16, 2011 at 6:24:43 pm

Mediacomposer 6 supports native prores. Incl encoding.
Nice pendelum:)


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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 16, 2011 at 8:41:22 pm

John, you got me so excited about the HyperDeck Studio that I totally failed to notice that BMD has announced DaVinci Resolve 8.1.1 Lite.

It's free, it has UNLIMITED nodes, and it has DNxHD support.

More here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/277/11930

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Michael Gissing
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 6:37:17 am

The Atomos Samurai which was recently released records ProRes or DNxHD via HD SDI input. It is the big brother to the Ninja


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 12:52:40 pm

MXF for macs are tough, though.

How does Avid handle it? If you have an Avid created dnxhd based MXF can you play it in Quicktime, for example?

If you export an MXF, it is op1a (one file) or atom (separate audio/video)? Does it do better then the mess of files it creates while capturing?

If I don't have Avid ( and pretend I don't have any KiPros) how would I deliver a DNxHD MXF?


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 6:01:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "MXF for macs are tough, though. "

Ex-squeeze me? What? Can you explain that? Tough how? I have been editing with FCP on macs for pretty much my entire 15 year career...and before that...in college...so 18 years. And when it switched from OMFI to MXF, there wasn't one issue. So...not sure what you mean by that at all.

[Jeremy Garchow] "How does Avid handle it?"

Uhm...fine? That is the native Avid format. That is the format Avid prefers. It actually handles it better than FCP handles Quicktime. This question also puzzles me.

[Jeremy Garchow] " If you have an Avid created dnxhd based MXF can you play it in Quicktime, for example?"

No. Well, yes, if you have MXF4Mac or Calibrated you can. But other than that...no. They aren't designed to be played in QT. You are trying to approach AVID like you do FCP...and you simply cannot. They don't work the same way. MXF files are pretty much limited to being used in the Avid application. Not designed to be opened by other apps outside of that.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If you export an MXF, it is op1a (one file) or atom (separate audio/video)?"

Typically MXF files are separate. Video is a separate file, and each audio channel is a separate file. Not sure if there is a way to make an MXF file that is a combination of all...but I don't think it is supposed to work that way. Again, you are trying to apply the methodology of one NLE to another.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Does it do better then the mess of files it creates while capturing?"

Those mess of files are all tracked by Avid internally. And very well. IN fact, you can delete audio from a sequence and consolidate it and ONLY consolidate the video. Can't do that with FCP...the audio is part of the QT file, so if you media manage the files, video and audio all go. The same with audio...delete video and consolidate only audio...you get only audio...not video. Very useful for certain workflows.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If I don't have Avid ( and pretend I don't have any KiPros) how would I deliver a DNxHD MXF?"

From what? For what? If someone wants DNxHD media files for use in editing, then you get an Avid and AMA whatever footage (or import) you have, then transcode. Give me a specific example and I can see if I can help. OH...and you can deliver DNxHD Quicktimes, with audio and video tied, and Avid can import those...

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:13:38 pm

[Shane Ross] "Ex-squeeze me? What? Can you explain that? Tough how? I have been editing with FCP on macs for pretty much my entire 15 year career...and before that...in college...so 18 years. And when it switched from OMFI to MXF, there wasn't one issue. So...not sure what you mean by that at all."

Absolutely I'll explain. We are talking about DNxHD deliverables, right?

If I don't have Avid, how do I write a DNxHD MXF?

If I get sent a DNxHD MXF and I don't have Avid, how do I read it?

Avid's MXF needs to allow these things to happen (without paying for a seat) if DNxHD is to be a deliverable.

ProRes readability comes with QuickTime on windows or Mac. For free.

[Shane Ross] "No. Well, yes, if you have MXF4Mac or Calibrated you can. But other than that...no."

Exactly.

[Shane Ross] "They aren't designed to be played in QT. You are trying to approach AVID like you do FCP...and you simply cannot. They don't work the same way. MXF files are pretty much limited to being used in the Avid application. Not designed to be opened by other apps outside of that. "

I think that would need to change if DNxHD is to be a deliverable and ubiquitous as ProRes. That's all I'm saying. Avid MXFs should be available to the MacOS. I can do it now with third party software, and some serious tweaks. If Avid is to move to being "open" then do it.

[Shane Ross] "Typically MXF files are separate. Video is a separate file, and each audio channel is a separate file. Not sure if there is a way to make an MXF file that is a combination of all...but I don't think it is supposed to work that way. Again, you are trying to apply the methodology of one NLE to another."

No. I'm not. I am talking about "the age of DNxHD" as you called it and someone asked if Adstream accepts DNxHD, you said to use MXF, therefore, how am I to deliver a DNxHD MXF if I don't have Avid?

[Shane Ross] "Not sure if there is a way to make an MXF file that is a combination of all...but I don't think it is supposed to work that way. "

Yes, it's op1a instead of op atom. Some camera shoot this way. MXF (in general) can have embedded audio.

[Shane Ross] "Those mess of files are all tracked by Avid internally. "

I understand, but in the age of DNxHD that I need to be a part of, and if I don't have Avid, and I receive a mess of files, what do I do with them? RIght now, Atomic Fusion and MXF4mac are the only way I can deal with them, but that's expensive (Atomic Fusion is free) and most people won't pay for that. Avid has some responsibility here, that's all I'm saying dude.

[Shane Ross] "From what? For what?"

The age of DNxHD, of course! For file deliveries. You know, dub houses, post houses, whatever. Instead of "I'll send you a ProRes" it will be "I'll send you a DNXHD MXF!", or you are a dub house and a client sends over a drive and it's full of a mess of Avid MXF files, and you don't have Avid.

[Shane Ross] "and you can deliver DNxHD Quicktimes, with audio and video tied, and Avid can import those..."

I am talking output, NOT input in which of course you would have Avid, and Quicktime is easy on a Mac, MXF is not without third parties, and even then it's not real easy. That brings us back to the beginning nicely, now doesn't it?

Jeremy


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:28:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " Instead of "I'll send you a ProRes" it will be "I'll send you a DNXHD MXF!""

You don't send an MXF. You send a quicktime encoded with DNxHD. If you get a DNxHD Quicktime go to Avid.com and download the codec pack. It's free for both encode and decode, Mac or PC.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:38:20 pm

[Michael Hancock] "You don't send an MXF. "

What if I'm the recipient and I receive an MXF?


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:43:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What if I'm the recipient and I receive an MXF?"

Three options.

1) Call them and tell them to send a Quicktime.

2) Download the Avid trial, export a Quicktime.

3) Buy Avid. It's cheap.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:44:27 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What if I'm the recipient and I receive an MXF?"

Then ask the client for a QT DNxHD. Or get Avid Media Composer...so that you can deal with those clients. But the simplest thing to do is ask for a DNxHD QT file.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I get it, but not everyone will. MXF on a Mac is not easy or cheap. Avid could make that easier of they want to be "open" is all I'm saying."

You don't open the MXF files directly. (To be fair, you don't do this on a PC either, do you? Open the MXF files directly? If so...what do you use?) If you get Avid MXF files...then you need to get Media Composer, and then you can export them to fit your needs (MC is now cheap..as I said). Or you can ask that the client supply you with DNxHD Quicktimes.

Seems to me that you just want to refuse to get Media Composer, even if it means being able to fulfill the needs of your clients better. Or, you don't want to ask them to send QT files.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Daniel Frome
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:31:27 pm

Fair points Jeremy.

Yes, truth is that we should separating the talk of DNxHD and MXF -- as they don't always exist as 1 whole unit.

Avid's preferred codec is DNxHD. Avid's wrapper is MXF.

When passing around Avid files (DNxHD encoded files) it is often going to be necessary to send them in the quicktime (MOV) wrapper so that they can be viewed and worked with outside the Avid application. While working Avid those files are often going to be wrapped in MXF.

So... what you're pointing out is really a file wrapper issue more than a 'format' issue if you get me... totally valid nonetheless.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:36:46 pm

[Daniel Frome] "Avid's preferred codec is DNxHD. Avid's wrapper is MXF. "

I'm aware and know the difference. It's still an issue.

[Daniel Frome] "So... what you're pointing out is really a file wrapper issue more than a 'format' issue if you get me... totally valid nonetheless."

I get it, but not everyone will. MXF on a Mac is not easy or cheap. Avid could make that easier of they want to be "open" is all I'm saying.


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Daniel Frome
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:44:54 pm

I would honestly call it a small inconvenience, not an issue.

I'll admit that the idea that my "avid files" are not directly readable by quicktime weirded me out when switching from FCP. But... it actually hasn't been an issue to this point.

Just realize that the MXF wrapped files are never, ever, handed off unless you are strictly handling avid-to-avid stuff. Otherwise it's taken for granted that you want a DNxHD quicktime. I think you're forcing the perspective a bit too much here..noone says "give me that MXF!"


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Daniel Frome
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:47:35 pm

Oh...and if they ever DID say "give me that MXF!" I would gladly welcome them to search the schmorgasboard of my Avid Mediafiles/MXF folder! hah...good luck finding it! ;P


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:04:13 pm

[Daniel Frome] " I would gladly welcome them to search the schmorgasboard of my Avid Mediafiles/MXF folder! hah...good luck finding it! ;P"

You don't need luck here, 'cos there's an ancient right-click command called "Reveal File" in which takes you to an open Finder window with your three files selected for your convenience (V1+A1+A2). You can see a print screen here that the MXF files retains some of the clip name, so it isn't such a "mess" like was said nor you need luck to find them neither.

Just clarifying, not punching anyone for that matter. Occasionally, truth hurts a bit, nonetheless



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:05:27 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "You don't need luck here, 'cos there's an ancient right-click command called "Reveal File" in which takes you to an open Finder window with your three files selected for your convenience (V1+A1+A2)"

Very conveinent when you have Avid software. Not convenient when you don't.


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Daniel Frome
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:15:49 pm

C'mon 'twas a joke. No wonder they us avid people are a little slow :p


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Christian Schumacher
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 11:12:38 pm

[Daniel Frome] "C'mon 'twas a joke. No wonder they us avid people are a little slow :p"

I need to further clarify that "Reveal File" works only when selecting one clip at a time. And also the MXF folder retains the tape names not the clip names, despite the fact that when "revealing" effects and file-based clips you get their names in there. So you're quite right, Avid people must be slow, the reason why it took us a while to ramp up to 64b, I guess.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:48:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I get it, but not everyone will. MXF on a Mac is not easy or cheap. Avid could make that easier of they want to be "open" is all I'm saying."

Who cares if if's not easy or cheap? In another thread you said if someone needed to encode to ProRes on Windows they could buy Episode Engine for $4,000. I quote, "I'm just saying, if you need it, it's there."

See here: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/20368

So if you need read an Avid MXF, buy Avid. If you need it, it's there and it's a whole lot cheaper than ProRes encoding on Windows. Bit of a double standard to expect Avid to be more "open" regarding MXF but it's cool to limit ProRes encoding to Mac.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:54:48 pm

[Michael Hancock] "So if you need read an Avid MXF, buy Avid. If you need it, it's there and it's a whole lot cheaper than ProRes encoding on Windows. Bit of a double standard to expect Avid to be more "open" regarding MXF but it's cool to limit ProRes encoding to Mac."

HEAR HEAR!

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 8:24:38 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Who cares if if's not easy or cheap? In another thread you said if someone needed to encode to ProRes on Windows they could buy Episode Engine for $4,000. I quote, "I'm just saying, if you need it, it's there."

See here: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/20368"


I did say it. You are right about that, and that's ENCODING ProRes in windows.

If you need to READ ProRes on windows IT'S FREE and I don't have to buy and install an NLE.

If Avid wants to be open, open it. That's what they are claiming to be, right? Did Apple ever claim to be open?


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:36:08 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We are talking about DNxHD deliverables, right?"

DNxHD QUICKTIME deliverables. That is what I'm being asked to deliver lately. Not MXF.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If I don't have Avid, how do I write a DNxHD MXF?"

You don't. And again, the deliverables aren't MXF...they are QT. And you can download from Avid, for FREE, the Avid DNxHD codecs, so you can then deliver DNxHD Quicktimes with FCP. I have done that before as well.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If I get sent a DNxHD MXF and I don't have Avid, how do I read it?"

MXF4Mac, Calibrated...the usual suspects. Or get an Avid. If you are going to be dealing with Avid media files, then you really should have Media Composer in your office. It's pretty darn cheap.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Avid's MXF needs to allow these things to happen (without paying for a seat) if DNxHD is to be a deliverable. "

THEY DO! DNxHD Quickime codecs are free. Although some networks do ask for the final Avid project file and Avid media. And when the companies edited with FCP, what did they do? Well, a few hired me to provide those assets. And I did so with Automatic Duck (which is now free) and Avid Media Composer. If you are asked for this deliverable, there is no reason not to have Avid MC in your shop.

What do you do if you are required to deliver a ProRes master, and you don't have FCP? (well, before MC6 came out)? ProRes encoding was ONLY available if you had Final Cut Studio. Period. So, you needed to buy Final Cut Studio in order to give the network what they needed. Now, you don't need to. Avid MC6 on the Mac has a ProRes encoder, so you can do that delivery without needing FCP.

[Jeremy Garchow] "ProRes readability comes with QuickTime on windows or Mac. For free."

Yes, and DNxHD readability, AND ENCODE is free from Avid. Has been for a looooong time. They have a leg up on Apple there. Well, except now Avid MC6 has the ability to encode to ProRes...so...

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think that would need to change if DNxHD is to be a deliverable and ubiquitous as ProRes."

The DNxHD deliverables have always been QT based. And for that you can use FCP, FCX or Premiere, as long as you have the Avid codecs (free!). No need to have Media Composer.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am talking about "the age of DNxHD" as you called it and someone asked if Adstream accepts DNxHD, you said to use MXF"

Did I? I said to use MXF? I misspoke then. DNxHD deliverables are typically QT. Refer to the client specs for accurate requirements.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Instead of "I'll send you a ProRes" it will be "I'll send you a DNXHD MXF!","

No...It's "I'll send you a DNxHD Quicktime" typically. There is no way to get a single MXF file that includes audio and video.

[Jeremy Garchow] "or you are a dub house and a client sends over a drive and it's full of a mess of Avid MXF files, and you don't have Avid."

Then you call them back and say "I can't use these. Send a DNxHD Quicktime file." Or, better yet, if you are a dub house that wants to meet the needs of the client, get Avid Media Composer. No excuse not to. It is $2500. $1500 if you have any version of FCP. And if you want to meet the needs of clients...have a wide base and make money...you get the tools you need to work with them. If you go "I'm sorry, we are an FCP only shop, so I need you to send me stuff that works with FCP..." The client will look elsewhere. Being ONLY FCP is very limiting. Especially now with FCX out. The pro market will really shrink for you if you are only FCP and FCX.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am talking output, NOT input in which of course you would have Avid, and Quicktime is easy on a Mac"

And again...DNxHD QUicktimes are very possible, and very common...and the typical deliverable asked for by networks and other clients. NOT MXF.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 8:20:31 pm

I undertand the codecs are free. I understand what an MXF file is, what a wrapper is, but...

[Shane Ross] "Then you call them back and say "I can't use these. Send a DNxHD Quicktime file.""

The reason why I am asking is that two weeks ago, I received a drive from Italy that was full of Avid MXF files. If I didn't have MXF4mac or Atomic Fusion (which combines the audio and video of all the disparate MXF clips and fires it over to FCP to be further edited/exported) I'd would have been hosed. I simply didn't have time to call Italy and have them do it over. I told them what I wanted to be delivered, they did not listen. So I'm supposed to give up, or just "go buy Avid". Sorry, but ya'll are nuts.

I love how all of a sudden the world is perfect, and everyone does what they are supposed to. I ask a valid question, and everyone gets all defensive and testy as it's an NLE they like. Weird.


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 8:34:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "If I didn't have MXF4mac or Atomic Fusion (which combines the audio and video of all the disparate MXF clips and fires it over to FCP to be further edited/exported) I'd would have been hosed."

No, you wouldn't have. You could download the free fully functional trial of MC 5.5 and used that to deal with these files. Or, bought it and had it on hand for when this happened again. OR...because you already had those tools at your disposal...this point is moot.

If someone OTHER than you who didn't have MXF4Mac received MXF files from someone overseas...they wouldn't be hosed. They too could get the trial version of Avid MC and dealt with them.

[Jeremy Garchow] "So I'm supposed to give up, or just "go buy Avid"."

Nope! Free demo! Or get Calibrated (cheaper than MXF4Mac). So many solutions exist...you wouldn't be hosed. You might have to spend a little money, but a lot less than that $4000 you told someone else about for ProRes encoding on a PC.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Sorry, but ya'll are nuts."

I beg to differ. You are being oddly combative lately. Uncharacteristically so. I mean...you have the tools at your disposal, your issue is moot. And when, in the past, people have had issues with P2 footage being handed to them with the improper file structure, you (and I) would always offer up the solution of MXF4Mac. That cost money...it isn't cheap. So why are you now opposed to offering that up as a solution to people getting MXF files from Avid? Or opposed to the suggestion of getting the Avid software? It makes no sense to me. Seems like you are being combative just to bash Avid and their format. Same issue, same solution... So what's different here?

[Jeremy Garchow] "I ask a valid question, and everyone gets all defensive and testy as it's an NLE they like. Weird."

You ask a question that you knew the answer too...because you had the solution in your lap. Yet you seem to want to point out that Avid is faulty somehow. YOU seem to be Avid-bashing for no good reason. You asked the question,'What do I do if I am handed Avid MXF files and I don't have Avid?" Well, same answer to "what if I am handed MXF files from a P2 card but only have the Video and Audio folders?" Yet you don't bash Panasonic for making MXF so Apple unfriendly. You say "get MXF4Mac...it's easy!" Same answer.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 9:06:55 pm

[Shane Ross] "No, you wouldn't have. You could download the free fully functional trial of MC 5.5"

Now that is a fair point. More on it later.

[Shane Ross] "OR...because you already had those tools at your disposal...this point is moot. "

I know how I personally would deal with it, but I am not speaking just for myself. I am simply pointing out that Avid could do a lot for itself if it really went open as they claim to be doing and that might mean making MXF available to the OS. That is my whole point.

I also have KiPros and once DNxHD gets turned on, I will be able to record out of a capture card to DNxHD. But I already have those tools, some (most?) people don't.

[Shane Ross] "So many solutions exist...you wouldn't be hosed. "

Yes, but Atomic Fusion was the key to it, calibrated won't get me there will it? I'm away from the office now, otherwise I'd show pictures to show everyone who might not understand.

[Shane Ross] "I beg to differ. You are being oddly combative lately. Uncharacteristically so"

Dude, you have no idea. This is the trading punches forum as well as the debate forum. Consider me shell shocked. I have two black eyes, my lips are swollen, and my body is sore all because I think FCPX is going to be just fine. Many people don't think that way, and let me (and others) know every single day right here in this forum. Everything has been put in to question around here. I'll point you to a couple of posts around here that perhaps you were being combative. I have some Twitter posts, too. It is odd that since the tables have turned and there's software tat you personally might support, I am seen as a "threat". I have the right to question Avid and their motives and workflows. In my opinion, you want to be open? Open your capture standard to the MacOS. Apple does.

[Shane Ross] "And when, in the past, people have had issues with P2 footage being handed to them with the improper file structure, you (and I) would always offer up the solution of MXF4Mac."

Because that's truly a problem and the files were broken. The way Avid MXF works is by design.

[Shane Ross] "So why are you now opposed to offering that up as a solution to people getting MXF files from Avid? Or opposed to the suggestion of getting the Avid software?"

I'm not, I said I have it and used it. But for every 20 times I suggested MXF4mac I'll show 19.5 people who asked, is there anything cheaper? I also think it's a bit much to ask to install Avid on a production system that isn't running Avid. I wouldn't recommend that, unless they had a separate system drive to install it on.

[Shane Ross] "Seems like you are being combative just to bash Avid and their format. "

I see an issue with it and see where improvements can be made, and I'm not entitled to point it out?

[Shane Ross] "Yet you don't bash Panasonic for making MXF so Apple unfriendly."

They have a free tool that lets you read their MXF files (P2CMS) they have also made a free Avc-Intra MXF encoder available for Compressor for years now. There's nothing to bash, they support their MXF standards and want you to use it on a Mac with multiple tools, for free. You don't even have to buy a camera, or any Panasonic gear to have those products.

No offense, brother.

Jeremy


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Chris Harlan
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:36:13 pm

MXF is a wrapper, not a CODEC. You can easily write DNX in a QT wrapper, as well.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:40:49 pm

[Chris Harlan] "MXF is a wrapper, not a CODEC. You can easily write DNX in a QT wrapper, as well.
"


Guys, I am fully and completely aware of this difference.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 7:55:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "MXF is a wrapper, not a CODEC. You can easily write DNX in a QT wrapper, as well.
"

Guys, I am fully and completely aware of this difference.

"


Cool. But, then, I don't understand why you are making these statements from above:

Absolutely I'll explain. We are talking about DNxHD deliverables, right?

"If I don't have Avid, how do I write a DNxHD MXF?

If I get sent a DNxHD MXF and I don't have Avid, how do I read it?

Avid's MXF needs to allow these things to happen (without paying for a seat) if DNxHD is to be a deliverable.

ProRes readability comes with QuickTime on windows or Mac. For free."

What am I missing?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 8:21:35 pm

[Chris Harlan] "What am I missing?"

That you cannot read a DNxHD MXF file on a Mac without paying for Avid/third party software.


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 8:36:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "That you cannot read a DNxHD MXF file on a Mac without paying for Avid/third party software."

Hmmm...what about DVCPRO HD that was captured with FCP? Or HDV captured with FCP? You need FCP on the machine, or third party software to be able to see those. Have you complained about that?

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 9:08:46 pm

[Shane Ross] "Hmmm...what about DVCPRO HD that was captured with FCP? Or HDV captured with FCP? You need FCP on the machine, or third party software to be able to see those. Have you complained about that?"

We are talking about ProRes and DNxHD as deliverables. Unless you want to talk about other codecs?


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 9:17:39 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We are talking about ProRes and DNxHD as deliverables. "

Quicktime files. That's the deliverable.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Unless you want to talk about other codecs?"

You have an issue with Avid's MXF format. Shane is pointing out Apple's proprietary codecs with FCP. Same issue.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:01:06 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Quicktime files. That's the deliverable."

Hmm, I thought this whole thing started when talking about an MXF DNxHD deliverable. I'd invite you start at the top of the thread.

[Michael Hancock] "You have an issue with Avid's MXF format."

Um, yeah. Hasn't that been what we have been talking about today? And the marketing team. At least I know what I am getting in to when I deal with Apple.

From Avid's website: "An open platform that enables you to work with everything you want and integrate into any workflow."


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:07:46 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Hmm, I thought this whole thing started when talking about an MXF DNxHD deliverable. I'd invite you start at the top of the thread."

John Christie...quoting the BMD announcement - "We are announcing today that we will support DNxHD recording and playback to MXF files."

ACQUISITION format...not final delivery. And of course, recording to DNxHD for use in the Avid. If you were intending to use another NLE to edit, I'd suggest NOT recording DNxHD MXF files.

Brian Mulligan - "DG Fastchannel accepts DNxHD."

Ben Scott - "shame ad stream wont accept MXF yet but does prores"

I think Ben meant to say that they won't accept DNxHD...not MXF. That is the only mention of MXF being used as a final deliverable...and I think Ben misspoke.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:11:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Hmm, I thought this whole thing started when talking about an MXF DNxHD deliverable. I'd invite you start at the top of the thread."

The top of this thread is for a recording device that captures to Avid's MXF format. That's an acquisition, not a deliverable. If you don't know what system you're going to be delivering your footage to, ask. Or shoot to Quicktime - Avid handles that natively too. For a DNxHD deliverable, that's a Quicktime.

The difference is you're calling the acquisition format a deliverable because it might get "delivered" to you.


[Jeremy Garchow] " And the marketing team. At least I know what I am getting in to when I deal with Apple."

Like you got Mix and Match frame rates on the FCP7 timeline, but it did it wrong? C'mon - Apple is hardly the bastion of truthful marketing.

[Jeremy Garchow] "From Avid's website: "An open platform that enables you to work with everything you want and integrate into any workflow.""

Yeah. Buy an Avid and it will integrate into any workflow. 3rd party hardware? Accepted (not all of them, but almost all modern cards). Acquisition formats - AVCHD, XDCam, P2, Quicktime (including ProRes), r3d, etc... reads them natively. Export a Quicktime from Avid, like to Quicktime's using AMA or import/transcode for rock-solid media management.

If you read that to mean that you can take Avid's MXF files and open them in Word, then I can't help you. But if you buy Avid - it's open to integration with other apps, and in most cases it does it really well.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:28:58 pm

[Michael Hancock] "The difference is you're calling the acquisition format a deliverable because it might get "delivered" to you. "

No. Dude. MXF to Adstream, and the resulting response.

I am not making this up.

[Michael Hancock] "If you read that to mean that you can take Avid's MXF files and open them in Word, then I can't help you."

Shucks. Becuase that exactly what I was asking for.

Nevermind. Avid is holy. Remind me not to take it to task on an FCP debate forum.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:41:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "No. Dude. MXF to Adstream, and the resulting response. "

DNxHD = codec.

MXF - container.

Post you're referring to: [Ben Scott] "shame ad stream wont accept MXF yet but does prores"

Already talking about two different things here. Prores - codec. MXF - container. Avid can create a ProRes MXF now, but that still wouldn't be accepted because Adstream doesn't accept MXF (even though they accept ProRes).

Ad Stream response: [Craig RussillRoy] "I have been at Adstream for 10 years now and we have seen a lot of codecs come and go..."
[Craig RussillRoy] "I am always keen to test technologies, but on the other hand we need to rope in all the codecs we accept or our tech specs would be 1000s of pages !"

Specifically says they can't accept all codecs. Miscommunication is happening here, because: MXF - not a codec. You said you got that, but you're still talking like MXF is a delivery codec. It's not.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Nevermind. Avid is holy. Remind me not to take it to task on an FCP debate forum."

Take it task all you want, but take it to task for something sensible. Saying Avid should restructure what container they capture to/transcode to because you don't want to buy their software is kind of silly, isn't it? I bought calibrated decoders to read DVCProHD Quicktimes on a PC because Apple wasn't playing nice with PCs and codec support in Quicktime. Problem = solved.

As a matter of fact, I had to read Avid media a few weeks ago so I downloaded the trial and exported Quicktimes. It wasn't an issue.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:58:25 pm

Ben Scott, What did you mean?

Did you mean delivering a DNxHD MXF to Adstream? That's how I took it, if you didn't mean that, please clarify.

Thank you.

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 11:02:20 pm

Interesting announcement from Black Magic
by John Christie on Nov 16, 2011 at 12:55:20 am

Black Magic just released a few software updates and this one caught my eye:


HyperDeck Studio

We have been asked by a lot of HyperDeck Studio users about compressed video recording, and we have been working hard on this. We are announcing today that we will support DNxHD recording and playback to MXF files. These are fully compatible with Media Composer 6 and are a broadcast industry standard.

If this was a year ago, don't you think it would have been ProRes rather than DNxHD? Black Magic ain't no dummies, they can see which way the pendulum is swinging.

Cheers

John C


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Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
by Ben Scott on Nov 16, 2011 at 3:41:44 am

shame ad stream wont accept MXF yet but does prores

once its a file deliverable for tapeless delivery it becomes far more interesting

all down to where you deliver to

but yes useful for avid


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Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
by Brian Mulligan on Nov 16, 2011 at 6:37:17 am

DG Fastchannel accepts DNxHD.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic
by Craig RussillRoy on Nov 16, 2011 at 12:02:06 pm

Hey Ben !

Happy to chat to you on your requirements - we mention ProresHQ on our delivery spec but work hard on integrating with you.

I have been at Adstream for 10 years now and we have seen a lot of codecs come and go - coming from a Post Production background myself I am always keen to test technologies, but on the other hand we need to rope in all the codecs we accept or our tech specs would be 1000s of pages !

As Adstream has 40 offices around the world what neck of the world are you in ?

Adstream London, England

4 x Mac Pros, FCP7, 4 x Flip Factories, 35 x Rhozet Carbon Coders, Offices Globally


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 11:08:35 pm

I know you don't believe me Michael but I know the difference in codecs and containers

Read those comments I just posted all in one go.

Blackmagic recording DNxHD MXF as a "broadcast standard" and Ben saying too bad Adstream won't accept MXF.

If Ben had a hyperdeck/FCP and a capture card, he could record his project to a DNxHD MXF.

I connected the dots. Forgive me.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 1:38:18 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I know you don't believe me Michael but I know the difference in codecs and containers"

I know you know the difference. In the case of the Hyperdeck, though, it's an acquisition container and it sounds like its specifically for Avid (or uncompressed Quicktime for the rest of the world). If it's Avid specific it's likely not OP-1A, but OP-Atom. So that's not a deliverable MXF container that I'm aware of. Broadcasters would want OP-1A with audio and video interleaved into one file, right?

[Jeremy Garchow] "If Ben had a hyperdeck/FCP and a capture card, he could record his project to a DNxHD MXF. "

That would mean he loads his sequence in FCP, patches his output card to the deck, fires the deck up and does a tape type layoff while the deck does a realtime transcode and rewrap to DNxHD MXF - then he'd have to pull the SSD from the hyperdeck and pop it into his system and transfer the MXF off (the audio and video would probably be separate since it's Avid style MXF), then upload those MXF files to whoever gets the final deliverable, where they would run it through a system to cache it into their playback system.

Wouldn't a File--Export DNxHD Quicktime be better?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 2:56:36 am

[Michael Hancock] "Broadcasters would want OP-1A with audio and video interleaved into one file, right?"

I would think so. And is that an option with Avid? No? Isn't that what the release alludes to? Avid would do well to open this up if we are entering the age of DNxHD. Right?

[Michael Hancock] "Wouldn't a File--Export DNxHD Quicktime be better?"

From an Avid, yeah. If I am entering the age of DNxHD and I am not going to buy an Avid, I can't do this and I don't have a way to wrap to MXF whatever the pattern, using QT can be funky. I'd rather use hardware, and I'd rather be able to deliver what is required. If dnxhd movs are easier, why is it so hard without an Avid?

I use KiPros for ProRes deliverables all the time and I use FCP. Sometimes, the KiPro is easier, especially when doing conversions in hardware in real time with tc and deck control.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 3:19:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] " And is that an option with Avid? No?"

Yes, you can export an OP-1A .mxf from Avid. But Avid media is OP-Atom.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Isn't that what the release alludes to?"

Release of the Hyperdeck? No, that's Avid MXF acquisition for direct-to-edit (like KiPro with ProRes). MC6 release and new openness? No, that's open to third party hardware and reading more acquisition formats natively. Buy Avid if you need to read Avid media, or install the trial.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Avid would do well to open this up if we are entering the age of DNxHD. "

DNxHD is the codec. What you seem to be talking about is the "age of MXF". I've never had .mxf as a delivery requirement - if I did, I buy the software I needed to do it.

[Jeremy Garchow] "If I am entering the age of DNxHD and I am not going to buy an Avid, I can't do this and I don't have a way to wrap to MXF whatever the pattern, using QT can be funky. I'd rather use hardware, and I'd rather be able to deliver what is required. If dnxhd movs are easier, why is it so hard without an Avid?"

If you're talking about wrapping Avid MXF files to a Quicktime for delivery, buy the Avid software and be done with it. I had to buy decoders for Quicktimes that were delivered in proprietary codecs - it's the cost of doing business. If a hard drive was delivered with .mxf files from an Avid I'd buy the software or install the trial (likely just install the trial) and get the job done. It's a simple solution.

If you're talking about making Quicktime files encoded to DNxHD - download the codecs and make them. That's even easier.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 3:45:36 am

[Michael Hancock] "Yes, you can export an OP-1A .mxf from Avid"

Oh, Shane said that wasn't possible earlier today, but whatever. Mistakes can be made.

[Michael Hancock] "If you're talking about wrapping Avid MXF files to a Quicktime for delivery, buy the Avid software and be done with it."

Mmm no. Got anything cheaper and won't require me to install a new OS? Or how about the expensive gear I already have? What won't that work? I'm being difficult here on purpose.

[Michael Hancock] "No, that's Avid MXF acquisition for direct-to-edit (like KiPro with ProRes"

yeah, but I use my KiPro to deliver quite a bit, not just for acquisition.

[Michael Hancock] "If you're talking about making Quicktime files encoded to DNxHD - download the codecs and make them. That's even easier."

yeah, but that gamma shift is for real.


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 11:45:09 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Mmm no. Got anything cheaper and won't require me to install a new OS? Or how about the expensive gear I already have? What won't that work? I'm being difficult here on purpose."

Cheaper? Won't Calibrated's MXF work? It's $250. That's pretty cheap. As far as installing a new OS - Media Composer 6 is approved for Lion but has been reported working under Snow Leopard 10.6.8. What OS are you on?

What expensive gear will be rendered useless if you buy one copy of Media Composer specifically to handle Avid files sent to you (like the Italy job)? Why be difficult on purpose? If you don't want to buy a copy of Media Composer that's fine, but you can't deny that it's a fast, simple, and relatively inexpensive solution to a problem.

[Jeremy Garchow] "yeah, but I use my KiPro to deliver quite a bit, not just for acquisition."

Because a Quicktime ProRes is a Quicktime ProRes. An MXF is not an MXF is not an MXF, hence why the Hyperdeck is acquisition MXF only (I'm assuming - haven't used one to see how it actually captures the footage - going off theory here).

Personally, I don't see .mxf being requested much at all, but DNxHD added to the list of acceptable codecs, yes. It's been around longer than ProRes and proved reliable, it's SMPTE certified, and it looks like more and more companies are supporting it. I don't expect ProRes to disappear though unless Apple kills it completely. You'll get the choice to deliver one or the other.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 11:11:57 pm

By the way, have you ever delivered to Adstream, Michael?


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Michael Hancock
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 1:30:41 am

Nope. Is there something I missing about its delivery? Sounds like it requires specific codecs - I couldn't find any delivery requirements on their website.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 2:45:46 am

They accept a variety of codecs.

Just wondering if you had been through the process is all.

[Michael Hancock] "Nope. Is there something I missing about its delivery? Sounds like it requires specific codecs"

Below is a list of our preferred formats:
MPEG-2 Program Stream
50Mbps CBR I frame only
Profile: 422P@ML
Frames: 25 fps
Colour Sampling: 4:2:2 (4:2:0 will not be accepted)
Video Size: 720 x 576 (720 x 608 including vertical blanking interval) Field: Upper field first (odd)
MPEG Audio Layer-2 Bit rate: 384kbps Sample Rate: 48Khz Stereo

8 bit Uncompressed QuickTime
625/50
Frames: 25 fps
Frame size: 720 x 576 (16:9fha) Colour sampling: 4:2:2 (YUV) Field: Upper field first (odd) Audio: Integer (Little Endian) Sample rate: 48Khz
Sample size: 16 bit
Stereo
Apple Pro Res (HQ)
625/50
Frames: 25 fps
Frame size 720 x 576 (16:9fha) Field: Upper field first
Colour sampling: 4:2:2
Audio: Integer (Little Endian) Audio sample rate: 48Khz Sample size: 16 bit
Stereo

10 bit Uncompressed QuickTime
625/50
Frames: 25 fps
Frame size: 720 x 576 Colour sampling: 4:2:2 (YUV) Field: Upper field first (odd) Audio: Integer (Little Endian) Sample rate: 48Khz
Sample size: 16 bit
Stereo

QuickTime Wrapped IMX50
625/50
Frames: 25 fps
Bit rate: 50 Mbps
Frame size: 720 x 576 (16:9fha) Field: Upper field first (odd) Colour sampling: YUV422P Audio: Integer (Little Endian) Audio sample rate: 48khz Sample size: 16 bit
Stereo


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Craig RussillRoy
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 9:04:20 am

Hi Jeremy,

Your right we have a variety of deliverable codecs and we have to send material all around the world - what the issue here (UK) is the Broadcasters are not receiving HD Commercial Content from us and other suppliers - there is a whole lot of issues with the coding of material (ISCI/SLATE Duration) and we have been active over the past 24 months working with the Broadcasters on this.

The Specs you have pointed out (I did them) are for our SD delivery Chain and as we are aware DNxHD is a HD only Codec, in the coming weeks we are hopeful the UK industry will be ready for the HD deliverable and this will include

MPEG2 422 100i Transport Stream
DNxHD 185 1080i
ProresHQ
and MXF

the main challenged we have is the multiple audio channels - not only the 7.1 but different languages for the European sector.

As Adstream is a complete global company we need to tread carefully into all regions so we have formality in all of our offices, I am currently working out of our Madrid office, after spending 3 months in our Miami office looking at LatAm and European roadmaps for HD.

When it comes to the deliverable of material to Adstream there are a few factors that we need to look out for;

Closed Caption / teletext
HD - 1920x1080 no Progressive at this stage BUT Japan are looking at adopting this
SD requires to be 720x608 / 720 x 512 (VBI) for all the mPEG2 4:2:2
Correct audio configuration - USA use wall to wall but UK requires mute 12 frames at top and tail and also require a 10 sec freeze at the end

I can bore you all with this but we are here to help you all!!!

The White Pages don't specify AVID Merdian but we accept that and we also receive Digital Betacams still - so if you are working on Vegas, Premiere, FCP, FCPX, AVID, Flame - smoke we are here to help for FREE ;-)

http://www.adstream.com

Adstream London, England

4 x Mac Pros, FCP7, 4 x Flip Factories, 35 x Rhozet Carbon Coders, Offices Globally


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 1:14:19 pm

[Craig RussillRoy] "The Specs you have pointed out (I did them) are for our SD delivery Chain and as we are aware DNxHD is a HD only Codec, in the coming weeks we are hopeful the UK industry will be ready for the HD deliverable and this will include"

Sorry, I meant to point out those specs were specifically for the UK and Ireland. I should have mentioned that, thank you.

The new delivery formats sound encouraging. We will be delivering another round of spots this year, and now that we know the drill, it will make it a bit easier this time around. The 12 frame silent top/tail threw us for a little bit there. I completely understand why it's necessary, though.

This year, we will shoot the spots with that in mind, which helps! Last year when shooting, we didn't know we would be sending spots over to Adstream.

[Craig RussillRoy] "I can bore you all with this but we are here to help you all!!!"

Thank you, Craig.


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Craig RussillRoy
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 2:17:07 pm

No worries - if you need anything in the future I am here to help ;-)

Adstream London, England

4 x Mac Pros, FCP7, 4 x Flip Factories, 35 x Rhozet Carbon Coders, Offices Globally


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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 2:55:35 am

DNxHD in MOV (the only way I've ever had media sent to me from an Avid) can be played with standard desktop tools, and it can be fast-imported (rewrapped, not re-encoded) into Avid.

The HyperDeck is recording for direct-to-edit, though. On Avid, that means DNxHD MXF. It's doing its job.

I also agree with the other posters that DNxHD, regardless of container, is more "open" than ProRes.

That said, I agree with Jeremy's general point -- it'd be great if MXF were more accessible with standard desktop tools. The industry's reliance on Apple's QuickTime is staggering when there's an open, SMPTE-standard container format like MXF available. Especially given how convoluted MXF is, better desktop support would be a big deal.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 3:06:21 am

[Walter Soyka] "DNxHD in MOV (the only way I've ever had media sent to me from an Avid) can be played with standard desktop tools, and it can be fast-imported (rewrapped, not re-encoded) into Avid."

I'll show you what was handed to me tomorrow and how I had to deal with it. A mov would have been easier, for sure.

[Walter Soyka] "The industry's reliance on Apple's QuickTime is staggering when there's an open, SMPTE-standard container format like MXF available. Especially given how convoluted MXF is, better desktop support would be a big deal."

Thank you, sir. That is what I am trying to say. It's my number one complaint with fcp, too, legacy and x. If we are moving to tapeless society, let's really do it. Quit half stepping.

Doesnt mc6 come with squeeze? What's the MXF support there?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 3:15:38 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'll show you what was handed to me tomorrow and how I had to deal with it. A mov would have been easier, for sure."

All the more reason to become NLE-agnostic. The preponderance of competing digital formats is going to get worse before it gets better. Why not equip yourself with the tools to handle whatever comes in the door?


[Jeremy Garchow] "That is what I am trying to say. It's my number one complaint with fcp, too, legacy and x. If we are moving to tapeless society, let's really do it. Quit half stepping."

Is Quicktime vs MXF really all that different than DVCPRO HD vs HDCAM?

The best thing about standards is that there are so many to chose from.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 3:32:58 am

[Walter Soyka] "Is Quicktime vs MXF really all that different than DVCPRO HD vs HDCAM?"

I believe it is yes, it's the difference between HDCam in a rectangular tape vs HDCam in a round tape, if such a thing existed.

The essence of the file, the audio/video/tc/metadata is sitting right there, most of the time in a codec that is on the computer.

By the way, the free MXF Player from MXF4mac is nice too. You can play P2 MXF files without a component.

[Walter Soyka] "All the more reason to become NLE-agnostic"

It's a beautiful idea, but it's not entirely practical for us. With Avid being open to third party hardware since just yesterday, it is becoming more practical. It would require maintaining a separate boot drive to do things correctly across four "seats" in our case, as Avid has decently strict OS requirements. I also have no idea what it would do to our San. Sounds like a lot do work for me, not sure if it's worth it.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 3:22:57 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Doesnt mc6 come with squeeze? What's the MXF support there?"

I believe Squeeze's MXF support is for XDCAM and AVC-Intra, but I could be mistaken.

Telestream Episode Pro (my compression app of choice) supports MXF output for XDCAM, Op1a, and OpAtom flavors. There's a check box for wrapping Avid-compliant OpAtom. I haven't tried it, but I could try to give it a go tomorrow. I'm not sure off-hand about how widely and deeply it supports MXF input, but maybe I can give that a go, too.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 3:46:49 am

[Walter Soyka] "Telestream Episode Pro (my compression app of choice) supports MXF output for XDCAM, Op1a, and OpAtom flavors. There's a check box for wrapping Avid-compliant OpAtom. I haven't tried it, but I could try to give it a go tomorrow. I'm not sure off-hand about how widely and deeply it supports MXF input, but maybe I can give that a go, too."

Now we are getting somewhere.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 18, 2011 at 3:30:46 pm

I just used Episode Pro 6.2 on a Windows 7 Avid MC5.5 machine and a Mac with DNxHD (but no MC) to convert a DNxHD MXF video file to QuickTime Animation codec and MXF audio files to AIFF. I haven't figured out how to combine them into a single file as part of the encode.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Shane Ross
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 9:24:54 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "We are talking about ProRes and DNxHD as deliverables."

Nnnnnnnooo. You are talking about MXF source files. DNxHD deliverables are QT files. And Avid provides that codec for free...encoding and decoding. Where Apple only provided ProRes as a DECODE option. Who's open now?

And yes, there are cheap cheap people out there who want everything for free. Or $1.99.

As for Avid making a codec that is more MAC friendly...you suggesting QT? That Apple itself is now dropping as it's foundation? They are now going with AV Foundation. And since Avid is cross platform, MXF is a fine option. Works on both.

And sorry about your black eyes. I'm sure I added a lump or two there.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 10:03:14 pm

[Shane Ross] "Nnnnnnnooo. You are talking about MXF source files. DNxHD deliverables are QT files."

I will invite you too to the top of the thread.

[Shane Ross] "Where Apple only provided ProRes as a DECODE option. Who's open now?"

And if I got a wad of ProRes QT movies that have been captured to FCP, I can read them on any machine in Quicktime, which is free. I can't with Avid. Reading the files and continuing to work seems like a more open option to me, but I'm a doofus, so take it with a grain of salt.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Interesting announcement from Black Magic: FREE Resolve 8.1.1 Lite with UNLIMITED NODES and DNxHD
on Nov 17, 2011 at 8:52:39 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Chris Harlan] "What am I missing?"

That you cannot read a DNxHD MXF file on a Mac without paying for Avid/third party software."


So what?


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