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COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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Izzy Tamang
Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 3:32:36 am

Hi,
I know this question has been thrown around a lot and after having read many posts on different programs..you know...the good, the bad and the ugly...and on and on...I still thought I would ask here.

I am an expert Final cut pro editor and have been editing for over 5 years (professionally) with intermediate skills in AE for VFX and Motion Graphics...and some coloring expertise under my belt (ofcourse with Color).

Ok..enough of the blabbering...

I just edited a feature film in FCP7 which was shot on RED. Sadly with Apple's unpromising future for pro in the league of editing software, I thought it would be a good time to learn another pro-editing program.

I would still learn Final Cut X, since it will be releasing updated features later down the road (except its huge learning curve with the new interface without the pro-substance)

But...I am seriously considering Adobe Premiere (integration with AE and compatibility of FCP keyboard layouts) with a big plus of 64 bit and native Red footage editing.
Although its becoming more popular among the independent filmmakers and big movies, however it just doesn't seem like a feature editing tool (I mean hollywood type movies).
But I am positive Adobe will facelift its stature by adding more features (with more consumers jumping onto Premiere boat).

On the other hand, Avid Media composer is the main work horse for editing features films that set the hollywood standard. It seems more stable, becoming more affordable and versatile.
However, besides its other peripheral programs, it just doesn't seem fully interchangeable without third party plugins and programs (automatic duck..etc..) so there goes...

I thought of Autodesk Smoke that does all, but its expensive

So, finally, I want be a feature editor with some inclusion of visual effects and motion graphics.
Simply put, a chef who cooks main meals along with sides,salads and dessert...per say.

That said, what would be the best editing program moving forward?

Thank you for your time and input.

Israel
Filmmaker/Editor
CA


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 4:32:01 am

Your only real choice at the present time is Avid. No one in L.A. uses Premiere at this time. That could change, but then again it might not. It certainly couldn't hurt to learn Premiere, but this is in all likelihood going to be an all Avid town as soon as the major players head for the hills, away from FCP. As far as "X" ever becoming a useful tool here; you might have to wait for years, if ever, for that to happen.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 9:16:14 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Your only real choice at the present time is Avid. "
And why not FC.7?
It has got any kind of virus that doesn't allows him to work anymore?
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Alexander Kallas
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 11:54:42 am

[Rafael Amador] "[David Roth Weiss] "Your only real choice at the present time is Avid. "
And why not FC.7?
It has got any kind of virus that doesn't allows him to work anymore?
rafael
"


No, why not keep using FCP7, no new learning curve, a few quirks, but so do others. There is no perfect editor.

Cheers
Alexander


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 2:26:58 pm

It really depends how you work and how your company is set up.
Since June several people we work with have gone back to Avid, the rest is holding out with FCP 7 but it is clear where the trend is going.
Among our clients, FCP X has a whopping adoption rate of zero per cent. So, if we are looking for a freelancer or hire a new guy we'd naturally be looking for someone with Avid experience. This is also the advise I'd give someone who wants to decide what NLE to learn if you want to work freelance. If you are a one man shop it may be different but it it always and avantage to be able to work with Avid.


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walter biscardi
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 12:41:19 pm

[Rafael Amador] "And why not FC.7?
It has got any kind of virus that doesn't allows him to work anymore?"


There are many of us who just don't want to beat a dead horse any longer. When you start working with Premiere Pro, Avid or even FCP X you realize just how slow and inefficient FCP 7 has become.

For those who want to continue to work in FCP 7 I say keep rocking. For those who want to switch to something else, I say keep rocking.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Izzy Tamang
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:50:03 pm

Right! Could be years for FCP X!


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walter biscardi
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 12:33:29 pm

As a straight editor, Premiere Pro is a natural extension of Final Cut Pro 7. Operation is very similar if you switch the keyboard shortcuts to Final Cut Pro. However, digital format operation is much better with PPro than FCP 7.

Avid is definitely the defacto standard of operation and the only question that remains to be seen is if they can make the economic model of being a software predominate company work. They used to make most of their profit through selling hardware.

In our testing we have found one significant difference between PPro and Avid.

Tape operation is horrible in PPro. VTR control is fine, but the actual capture / master process is very very poor.

Tape operation is rock solid in Avid.

So if you will never need tape again, it's a toss up, whichever you want to use. If you will need solid tape operation, right now Avid is the way to go.

Today, November 3rd, Avid is hosting a public webcast to announce something new. Most likely Media Composer 6. You can still register and listen in. 1pm Eastern Time US

https://event.on24.com/eventRegistration/EventLobbyServlet?target=registrat...

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Blog Twitter Facebook


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 3:25:06 pm

Walter,

I still have the comfort of time before making my own decisions, but I haven't really read anywhere of anyone using PPro for longer, larger projects (specifically meaning hundreds of hours of footage and hundreds of sequences over months of editing).

Have you had experience with this or know of anyone else's?

It's also worth noting that my own experiences testing PPro revealed some pretty flaky behavior with hardware (Matrox MXO2 LE) though I have heard this is less of an issue on Windows machines.

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 3:41:16 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] I still have the comfort of time before making my own decisions, but I haven't really read anywhere of anyone using PPro for longer, larger projects (specifically meaning hundreds of hours of footage and hundreds of sequences over months of editing.


Not hundreds of hours by any stretch, but I edited a feature film on a Sony VAIO laptop at the beginning of the year (first cut runtime: 113 minutes) of 4k Red One footage. Worked like a charm, though there was a few minute load time once the project had to load all the footage. It really helped me dive right through the assembly edit. Most of my issues stemmed from trying to jury rig FW800 on a PC, but nothing that was a show-stopper.


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Martti Ekstrand
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 3:51:51 pm

Then there's Gareth Edwards who edited, colour corrected and made most of the VFX of his debut feature "Monsters" with Premiere Pro and After Effects.

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/customer-stories-video-film-and-audio/monsters/


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 4:43:39 pm

You cut a feature on a laptop???? in 4K???? fw800????

Blaspheme!

You mean you don't need a suped up MacPro Sizzle Core with 96GB of RAM? Or the HP Equivalent???


And Izzy, as far as an editing program, are you freelance?

Right now, today, there is no best program. Everyone is putting their best foot forward. Avid has big announcements today, FCPX will get video out, and Adobe will probably announce something around NAB, I'd imagine.

FOr now, download all the trial versions, check them out, and sit tight. Of course if any freelance work you do is mostly dominated by a certain platform or another, then buy that. But I'm sure that's pretty obvious.


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Gary Huff
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 4:44:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] You mean you don't need a suped up MacPro Sizzle Core with 96GB of RAM? Or the HP Equivalent???

It only worked because I didn't need to render out anything. When it came time to render that out, you better believe I want a workstation.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 4:56:08 pm

[Gary Huff] "It only worked because I didn't need to render out anything. When it came time to render that out, you better believe I want a workstation."

I see. I guess a Thunderbolt connected Red Rocket card wouldn't have helped either...

Sorry, this is getting off topic, but I couldn't help it. I am glad it's now here though, on record. 4k feature edited on laptop. :)

Yeah, I'm being a jerk.


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Gary Huff
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 8:06:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] Sorry, this is getting off topic, but I couldn't help it. I am glad it's now here though, on record. 4k feature edited on laptop. :)

Well, assembly edit. The actual edit is being done on a powerful Mac Pro. Like I said, it was great for getting things up and running fast, but once it comes render time, it was not a good solution.

Having the ability to go Thunderbolt is good for certain solutions, but I'm not sure I want that to be the only option. Having a single tower that you can pimp out has space advantages, especially in scenarios where you're not part of a facility with rack space and the whole nine yards.

Plus, you have no idea what the Thunderbolt front is going to look like anyway.


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Izzy Tamang
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 8:11:58 pm

I can see laptop pull it off if you could make proxies and edit offline..i.e if you had the time to transcode like I had to using Redcine to prorez.
But sequence assembly doesn't seem power gouging work.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 8:17:49 pm

[Gary Huff] "Like I said, it was great for getting things up and running fast, but once it comes render time, it was not a good solution."

No, R3D debayer is a monster, even on a MacPro it's a monster. A dedicated Rocket card is really what's needed.

[Gary Huff] "Plus, you have no idea what the Thunderbolt front is going to look like anyway."

Just like Displayport? What I don't know is what the Thunderbolt back looks like.

;)

Jeremy


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Izzy Tamang
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:55:39 pm

Jeremy, yes I freelance!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 8:04:54 pm

[Izzy Tamang] "Jeremy, yes I freelance!"

By the way, we are changing that term to expensivelance. Don't forget.

If you expensivelance on other people's gear, then you will probably have to choose whatever will most likely get you employed. If you are your own island and you bring your gear, then Adobe is probably a good bet if you don't want FCP anymore.

Around here, people run a little bit of everything.


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Izzy Tamang
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 8:30:16 pm

True that! It sure is expensive. But I work on a longterm partnership agreement basis that gives them break on projects for consistent incoming work...mostly music videos and occasionally docs, trailers and few features etc...
I work it all on my own recently upgraded gear (Mac pro 3.2 GHz i7 12 GB Ram).
Eventually I will end up buying bigger hardware to house all the editing power or work on company's equipment for their projects.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 8:49:05 pm

IF FCPX/Motion isn't going to do it for you, the dynamic linkage between PPro and After Effects is very very nice.

PPro needs a little more tweaking in my opinion, but Adobe seems to be pretty serious about making PPro even more of a contender than it is now. Adobe has made some pretty interesting moves in the recent months.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Editing program
on Nov 4, 2011 at 2:11:15 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "PPro needs a little more tweaking in my opinion, but Adobe seems to be pretty serious about making PPro even more of a contender than it is now. Adobe has made some pretty interesting moves in the recent months."

Thank you Jeremy. I think at a basic level, we're listening to our customers and then delivering as much of it as we can. We've got lots of good things coming down the road and I personally can't wait to start showing the community.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Editing program
on Nov 4, 2011 at 6:04:14 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Thank you Jeremy. I think at a basic level, we're listening to our customers and then delivering as much of it as we can. We've got lots of good things coming down the road and I personally can't wait to start showing the community."

No worries.

Looking forward to what's next and I am certainly watching what's going on in the Adobe camp. I think you probably know, I am really excited about FCPX, but I also have to take it with a grain of salt. It needs work, if it doesn't deliver relatively soon then we have to look elsewhere. Personally, Adobe would be the first place we look as we already use most of the Creative Suite. In a way, your work is done as you have our business already. :)

I have also heard coming from Adobe (maybe it was you) that you are trying to be as open as possible. I love the sound of this, and I am rooting for you guys to deliver.

Jeremy


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 5:13:08 pm

Gary, thanks.

How much footage were you dealing with?

Do you have an estimate of the number of sequences you had in one project by the end?

[Gary Huff] "there was a few minute load time once the project had to load all the footage."

I am assuming by this that you mean this was time for the project to open each time you started?

Franz.


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Gary Huff
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 8:03:13 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] How much footage were you dealing with?

1.6TB of 4K Red Footage, so not a whole lot.

Do you have an estimate of the number of sequences you had in one project by the end?

Around 90ish? Something like that. I made each scene its own sequence so I could play around with the order of things.

I am assuming by this that you mean this was time for the project to open each time you started?

Yes. The delay was only in the initial opening. Probably would have been faster with eSATA drives.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Editing program
on Nov 3, 2011 at 3:58:38 pm

[walter biscardi] "There are many of us who just don't want to beat a dead horse any longer. When you start working with Premiere Pro, Avid or even FCP X you realize just how slow and inefficient FCP 7 has become."
You are right Walter is time to start to have a look to other things.
Here I have not any kind of pressure and probably that makes me feel real lazy.
Processing speed is what I guess will make me move on.
With PP and the features films I think is all about that somebody makes the first one.
Where I can't see my self is working with FCPX. It has great things and can be very useful for certain kind of jobs/processes, but not for my daily edit.
[walter biscardi] "Avid is definitely the defacto standard of operation and the only question that remains to be seen is if they can make the economic model of being a software predominate company work. They used to make most of their profit through selling hardware."
[walter biscardi] "As a straight editor, Premiere Pro is a natural extension of Final Cut Pro 7. Operation is very similar if you switch the keyboard shortcuts to Final Cut Pro. However, digital format operation is much better with PPro than FCP 7."
I also tried PP by 1996 but at that time was not an option, neither when I started by my self in 2003.
AVIDs learning curve is what is pushing me to PP. Although I would prefer mastering AVID, I many other things to learn better than another NLE.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Chris Jacek
Re: Editing program
on Nov 4, 2011 at 3:24:04 am

I know others have probably suggested this, but why not train yourself on more than one system? With the exception of the Autodesk option, the other platforms are priced reasonably enough that you could get them all, especially if you can utilize some kind of academic discount (even taking a class at a community college would qualify you). And of course, there are the 30 day trials.

As a freelancer, it seems to me that you would clearly be most marketable if you could cut on them all. If you're too busy with work to spend alot of time training, then there's no real rush, right? But if you have some down time, why not become an expert on everything that someone might ask you to use? I run a digital media program at a small college, and I will literally teach the same students FCP7, FCPX, Premiere, and Avid this academic year (and a heavy dose of AE too).

I think that is the one advantage of the current uncertainty in the market. It creates a highly competitive market among the software companies, dropping the prices, and really driving development. In the end, I think we'll all benefit from some cool new stuff.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Izzy Tamang
Re: Editing program
on Nov 4, 2011 at 8:48:35 pm

"But if you have some down time, why not become an expert on everything that someone might ask you to use?"
Good notion. I already did think about it and got my hands onto few of them back then..but I realized I had to master in one and stick with it, so I became the FCP editor.

Bottomline, after hearing from responses above, I think I am going to learn Avid Media Composer(already started) and make it my primary system while I transition from FCP 7.

I will keep working on FCP for another year or so while soaking in and smoothing out my learning curves on AVID.

I will keep close eye on Adobe Premiere and will bring my FCP skills and utilize its resemblance, possibly get my hands on it soon to make some headway.

Adobe does listen to its customers and I am keenly hoping to see what they got coming up their sleeves for the next Premiere.


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