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Gerald Baria
Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 1:23:49 am

With the recent rumor about the death of the Mac Pro, a lot of concerns/excitement have sprung up about what will happen to Apple's pro hardware. Many fear that Apple is slowly getting out of the pro market.



Ive been reading Steve Job's biography by Walter Isaacson,and the curent concerns brought me back to a scene when he was rehired at Apple to fix things up. After a very messy product review session with many crappy products on Apples pipeline, he's had enough and said stop. He went to the whiteboard and drew a 4 paned table like the one here and marked it, consumer, professional, dektop, portable. He started to focus Apples efforts and talent to this four product concentrations.

As you can observe, the professional market comprises half of Apples focus. It is a big deal for them. It has always been part of Apples genes to cover all bases in their products, from consumer to professional. And I believe it will not change one bit, even if they are getting majority of their revenues from iPhones currently.

Its not in Apples DNA to rest on its laurels. They might have killed the floppy drive, but they introduced the better storage medium, CD. They might have ignored USB3 but they developed Thunderbolt. They might have passed on the blu ray fad but focused on all digital media distribution so optical storage solution will be irrelevant. They are always 10steps ahead from the rest of the pack, that was Steve Job's gift.

The traditional "pro" level equipment disappears and new standards will be created. As usual they will be the first to offer it and the rest of the industry will copy. Its always been that way. Aren't you guys tired of doubting them.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 1:27:19 am

See you at the next 'KoolAid' party. My shout. You deserve more than one free drink :-)


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 2:43:53 am

It's interesting how things are shifting and blurring between consumer and professional.

The iPad is becoming the new DayRunner for the business person although far more powerful.

The iPhone is certainly in parts of some enterprise.

The top end iMac has two Thunderbolt ports and i7 Quad. It's really moved into the entry level workstation given what Thunderbolt does.

While MacMini and MacBookAir may be consumer they're no longer segregated by connectivity since they both have Thunderbolt.

There's no longer connectivity segregation between smaller and larger MacBookPros where Express slot was once the divide.



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Brad Bussé
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 7:40:02 pm

Does each TB port have independent bus speed equivalent to 4x PCIe, or are both ports sharing one 4x PCIe equivalent speed TB bus?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 12:41:34 pm

When Steve Jobs introduced the Consumer/Professional - Portable/Desktop matrix 13 years ago, Apple was still called Apple Computer, Inc.

Today, 13 years later, the market has changed. Mobility and entertainment have become the major drivers for Apple's growth, not computers. Apple's strategy has changed with (or perhaps in front of) the market, and the old matrix Jobs developed in the 1990s is no longer driving Apple's product development.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 3:29:35 pm

[Gerald Baria] " Aren't you guys tired of doubting them."

Nope.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bob Zelin
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 5:38:49 pm

Gerald is a child. He does not understand that even if FCP X and the Mac Mini will "blow the doors" off of what we have today just 2 or 3 years from now - GROWNUPS HAVE TO CONTINUE TO MAKE A LIVING - they don't have mommy and daddy funding their indi movies, while they have fun. Unfortunately for most of the readers of Creative Cow, and the people that use FCP 7 on a daily basis - we do this so we can MAKE MONEY and meet the requirements of our clients. If this does not fit in with Apple's plan (who cares about television - the future is on the web) - well, then we bitch, because we put a lot of effort into all this stuff, and unlike the people who hang around the Apple store's in the shopping malls, WE have to earn a living.

Bob Zelin



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 6:17:45 pm

I actually don't see Apple dumping MacPro's. I mean, if they are serious about penetration into the business world (which they say they are) they are going to need a solution that has PCI slots in it, don't ya think? Forget us media types, I'm talking Fortune 2000 companies. If they don't see a market there that they can penetrate, I don't see them making MacPros for the likes of our 250,000 person group of media types who need the power of a work station. Heck less than 1% of the MacBook Pro sales go to those registered with FCS 2009... We aren't a drop in the bucket to Apple.

That said, it was always SJ's vision to be an end to end solution with media. Create it, deliver it, and (soon I hear) to even display it, if you don't count Apple TV as the solution already.

Still, that puts us all in a sort of limbo... FCP X, will be ready someday, but when? we don't know. MacPro's may well be in their last iteration, who knows.

But do we all really need a 16 core machine? Probably not.. Thunderbolt has made everything cloudy for us right now. So I really think most of the FCP 7 users are going to stay right where they are for at least a while yet. Why not?

I must add here though one little fact. My 17" quad MacBook Pro with TB is FASTER than my first gen 8 core 3 gig tower... It compresses 30% faster.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 8:21:23 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "Still, that puts us all in a sort of limbo... FCP X, will be ready someday, but when? we don't know. MacPro's may well be in their last iteration, who knows. "

Jerry,

I'm sorry, but I've got to point out that your opinion above a great example of the main problem here.

You say "all of us" followed by ""FCP-X will be ready someday" but what you're actually saying is "will be ready for ME the way I work someday." Which is fair and accurate.

But there IS a larger truth. That it's ready for probably 80% of the functioning video editing market right this moment.

Period. No questions. It cuts fine.

It organizes assets MORE than fine. It does titles, incorporates graphics, allows you to rough out - fine tune - finalize - and even export and delivery in ways that are acceptable to the entire planet of video delivery RIGHT THIS SECOND.

All you have to know is how to use it. Just like any other NLE.

It's the thinking embodied in that line above thats largely what's confusing things, IMO. It's constantly harping on the "ITS NOT READY YET" theme that's barely fractionally true in the overall context of video editing as it;s practiced across our planet.

FCP-X is perfectly ready. Just not ready for everyone in absolutely all circumstances. That this particular board might be somewhat heavy with the people for whom it's not yet adequate is no excuse not to understand that there are legions of eyeballs here who are looking for accurate information, and not being attuned to the context of a remark like yours above, it leaves the impression that it's somehow incapable or nonfunctional.

And you can't possibly mean that — because it simply isn't true.

That's the larger problem with the "haters." I understand how and why they "hate" it - particularly since it might have supplanted something they were depending on to feed their families. But truth is truth, and opinion is opinion.

And that it's "not ready for prime time" depends ENTIRELY on how you define prime time.

Simple as that.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Walter Soyka
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 8:30:39 pm

[Bill Davis] "And that it's "not ready for prime time" depends ENTIRELY on how you define prime time."

Prime time is broadcast, right? With no video I/O or EDL export, it's not ready for broadcast, so it's not ready for prime time...

I say this half-jokingly.


[Bill Davis] "FCP-X is perfectly ready. Just not ready for everyone in absolutely all circumstances. That this particular board might be somewhat heavy with the people for whom it's not yet adequate is no excuse not to understand that there are legions of eyeballs here who are looking for accurate information, and not being attuned to the context of a remark like yours above, it leaves the impression that it's somehow incapable or nonfunctional."

I certainly appreciate the need for "balanced coverage" in this forum, but just as you might object to me saying that FCPX is missing important functionality, I'd object to you saying "FCP-X is perfectly ready."

Blanket statements either way aren't correct.

FCPX is a new product that may or may not suit a particular workflow. It will work for some of my projects, but not others. You might be surprised to hear that I have actually recommended FCPX to a couple of my clients, because it suited their workflows better than FCP7 ever did.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 8:59:32 pm

It might be good to breakdown what "ready" might mean to people.

One might be feature parity with the other major NLEs Media Composer, Premiere Pro, FCP legacy. Granted each NLE will do things the others can't but are all the most common functions there. For example some one consider the lack of Video Out monitoring as a "not ready."

Another form of ready might be consistent use within its own paradigm. One might say that adding a dissolve and video only dissolve are obvious but adding an audio only dissolve involves a very different set of steps. One might say handling of audio dissolves (and more broadly audio) is not ready yet.

Still another form of ready may be can it perform functions from the above categories albeit with some workarounds or is there some function it can't do at all . . . that there is no practical workaround for.

I think some of us are using "ready" differently so we might be more explicit when saying what is or isn't ready given whatever your workflow is.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 8:34:46 pm

[Bill Davis] "and even export and delivery in ways that are acceptable to the entire planet of video delivery RIGHT THIS SECOND."

I have no argument with most of your post, but this line is not true. X cannot color correct accurately since there is no video out and you cannot print to tape for broadcast delivery. It is possible to do those things by going outside of X and using other applications to fill in what X can't do, but X, by itself, does not allow for broadcast delivery right this second. Avid does, FCP7 does, PPro does, Edius does, and I'm guessing Media 100 and Vegas do as well - FCPX, like Imovie, does not.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 11:48:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "have no argument with most of your post, but this line is not true. X cannot color correct accurately since there is no video out and you cannot print to tape for broadcast delivery."

A. Tens of thousands of videos are finished daily that were shot properly (which is dimply defined as "to the standards of their producers) and so need NO color correction step whatsoever. I'd argue that the VAST majority of videos fall into this category even if *I* might feel that they could benefit from a CC step.

B. I have output Quicktime files from FCP-X that were subsequently sent to stations for broadcast.
It may require something other than a single button push which might be "inconvenient" to you. But that's not the same thing as your way overly broad "you cannot print to tape for broadcast delivery." That's another fine example of anit-X hyperbole. If one can "print" a QT file out of X (and anyone can) and put that on media - and distribute it. That's the essential function anyone needs and X does that just like any other NLE.

Raise something "video editing mission critical" that it actually "can't" do, not something it can do perfectly well, just not the way you want it to - and I'll be happy to listen.

So sorry, Herb. I'm not buying your line of reasoning at all.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 12:10:09 am

[Bill Davis] "Raise something "video editing mission critical" that it actually "can't" do, not something it can do perfectly well, just not the way you want it to - and I'll be happy to listen."

Forgetting about proper color, which is highly subjective, how about fields-related issues, which involve no subjectivity?

How exactly can you properly QC the output of FCPX without being able to see mismatched fields or reversed field order, both of which require proper video monitoring?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 2:36:37 am

I agree it's subjective. However I do want to see what the picture looks like displayed on the intended delivery medium, just as I want to hear a mix with speakers on the level of the intended medium. How else can you accurately assess and QC the project and know it is as you intended?


Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 5:14:19 am

[Jerry Hofmann] "I agree it's subjective. However I do want to see what the picture looks like displayed on the intended delivery medium, just as I want to hear a mix with speakers on the level of the intended medium. How else can you accurately assess and QC the project and know it is as you intended?"

Agreed Jerry, but let's not forget Bill's challenge to Herb above. After all, there's much more to this business than just delivering pretty pictures.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Gerald Baria
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 11:17:16 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Forgetting about proper color, which is highly subjective, how about fields-related issues, which involve no subjectivity?

How exactly can you properly QC the output of FCPX without being able to see mismatched fields or reversed field order, both of which require proper video monitoring?"


FCPX -> FCPXML -> DaVinci Resolve . Does this doesnt solve that? And if the argument is its not thru FCPX-only, does anyone here actually cc with Premiere Prto's built in color corrector? Or AVIDs? Or any other major NLE(are there others)? I do believe if your really serious about color correction, and your're in a big budget production house for movies or broadcast you would have to use a third party software for it. Which just has been solve with Resolves playing nice with FCPXML. On which you can color correct..on a proper monitor..so....

Quobetah
New=Better


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 11:48:39 am

Close, but no cigar. FCP X's XML everything in a Project. Here's a copy and paste of the info in the Help menu of X27:

Here’s a list of what happens during translation. Video clips and stills in the Primary Storyline become clips in track V1

Audio clips in the Primary Storyline become clips in tracks A1 etc. Connected clips are added to higher numbered video and audio tracks Split edits (J/L cuts) are preserved Synchronized clips are supported

Auditions are automatically “finalized”

If optimized media (ProRes 422) has been created in Final Cut Pro X, Final Cut Pro 7 will reconnect to that instead the original media

Constant speed changes are preserved The active/inactive state of each clip is maintained
Blue markers become blue markers in Final Cut Pro 7; unfinished to-do markers become red markers; and completed to-do markers become green markers

Roles are added to the clip’s Description field and Notes to the Log Note field

Cross Dissolve, Zoom, Flash, Lens Flare, Black Hole, Flip, Page Curl, Ripple, Swing, Cube, Doorway, Squares, Star, Band, Center, Checker, Clock, Gradient, Inset, Letter X and Wipe transitions are substituted with equivalents; other transitions become Cross Dissolve; audio transitions become Cross Fades

Titles become Outline Text titles containing the original text Generators become Slugs named after the

Final Cut Pro X generator The starting timecode is maintained

What doesn’t work?

The translation from Final Cut Pro X project to Final Cut Pro 7 sequence isn’t perfect. Here’s a list of what gets “lost in translation.”
• Compound clips
• Multiple speed changes in a clip and keyframed speed changes
• Effects
• For titles, font, size and color information does not transfer*. Some titles with complex builds may have the text out of order in Final Cut Pro 7.
• Transition settings*
• Color, Transform, Crop and Distort adjustments*
• Audio levels and audio enhancements*
• 4K media files (Final Cut Pro 7 supports formats up to 4000 pixels wide)
* we expect to support these features with a future version of Final Cut Pro X

I think the fellas are on their way, but there's many things that make this workflow definitely an Offline/Online situation.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 1:23:27 pm

[Gerald Baria] "does anyone here actually cc with Premiere Prto's built in color corrector? Or AVIDs? Or any other major NLE(are there others)?"

Yes, I do.

I cut multi-cam in-studio productions. They are, 95% of the time, perfectly color balanced. There are times when we grab shots from unusual angles or we get outside material that has to get integrated into the show and I deal with those shots with the 3 way CC. It's good enough for the purpose I need it for. Need a monitor though, and also need a monitor to look for field problems. Are you telling me I have to get Davinci Resolve just for those basic functions. What next, I have to get Pro Tools to do an audio dissolve?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 2:12:54 pm

Davinci Resolve Lite for free?



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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 2:26:59 pm

Craig -

it's not the cost, it's the inconvenience of having to bounce out of one program, export an XML, open another totally different program just to look at something in a monitor. That's a ridiculous waste of time and energy for something so basic.

I know there are ways to work around many of X's current limitations, but why should an editor have to "work around" functions that every other pro NLE on the market includes as basic? You are undermining all the speed benefits X gives you with that sort of workflow, it would be faster and easier to stay with Legacy.

This whole thread was started by bill claiming X was ready for -

"export and delivery in ways that are acceptable to the entire planet of video delivery RIGHT THIS SECOND."

This is currently not the case. Using DaVinci as a work around doesn't make that statement any truer.

This is also fairly moot because these issues should be resolved by the next upgrade. I was merely addressing Bill's assertion that these issues were already resolved.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 2:52:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I know there are ways to work around many of X's current limitations, but why should an editor have to "work around" functions that every other pro NLE on the market includes as basic? You are undermining all the speed benefits X gives you with that sort of workflow, "
[Herb Sevush] "This whole thread was started by bill claiming X was ready"

That's why I posted elsewhere the different definitions of "ready." For some it means, can be used right now with some workarounds. In other words one isn't locked out for using it for such purposes. I'm not saying that's the right definition of "ready" since that depends on what we're willing to tolerate and how much additional time it takes.

The reason why I mentioned Resolve Lite was just to make clear that there's a method that ameliorates the cost issue on doing an external monitor QC pass. That the pass is in a program that can tweak such things if it's needed certainly isn't a disadvantage especially if it offers more control that FCPX's built in color correction. Of course if you need a full grade than Resolve makes sense as a matter of course in any workflow but if you're just doing a QC check and making adjustments Resolve Lite may be a very reasonable solution for both external monitor check and adjustments.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 3:02:00 pm

[Craig Seeman] " if you're just doing a QC check and making adjustments Resolve Lite may be a very reasonable solution for both external monitor check and adjustments."

Not to beat a dead horse, but if it's such a reasonable solution then why am I not tempted to use it while working in Legacy, or PPro or Avid or Edius or ...

It's a solution made reasonable only by X's current limitations, limitations acknowledged by Apple as they assure everyone they will fix this for the next upgrade. If they didn't perceive it as a problem then why have they announced they are fixing it. If Apple can acknowledge this, why can't you?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 5:01:31 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Not to beat a dead horse, but if it's such a reasonable solution then why am I not tempted to use it while working in Legacy, or PPro or Avid or Edius or ..."

Because you don't like to work that way. It's certainly a reasonable way to work. Granted it's not Color, which was included with FCP Legacy but it's free and sending to a grading tool is a very common workflow especially if you're delivering for broadcast.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 6:18:59 pm

[Gerald Baria] "FCPX -> FCPXML -> DaVinci Resolve . Does this doesnt solve that? And if the argument is its not thru FCPX-only, does anyone here actually cc with Premiere Prto's built in color corrector? Or AVIDs? Or any other major NLE(are there others)? I do believe if your really serious about color correction, and your're in a big budget production house for movies or broadcast you would have to use a third party software for it. Which just has been solve with Resolves playing nice with FCPXML. On which you can color correct..on a proper monitor..so...."

Completely unresponsive to my question gerald. But, it was a nice try to redirect away from Bill's silly statements.

However, in response to your question, yes, most, if not all, of the people who are the primary targets of FCPX, do in fact use the color correction capabilities within their respective NLEs. It's primarily the high-end users, who you personally have discounted over and over here as "old people resistant to change" who actually use tools such as Resolve. But, since you're a chemical engineer by trade, it's understandable that you aren't completely clear about ongoings in this industry.

If it's any consolation to you, I'm not very up to date on the chemical industry. So there, we're more or less even, except for that fact that I don't post on forums catering to that industry, putting others down and trying to sound supremely knowledgeable.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Steve Connor
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 6:25:43 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "But, since you're a chemical engineer by trade, it's understandable that you aren't completely clear about ongoings in this industry.

If it's any consolation to you, I'm not very up to date on the chemical industry. So there, we're more or less even, except for that fact that I don't post on forums catering to that industry, putting others down and trying to sound supremely knowledgeable."


David, why do you have to keep lowering yourself to personal comments like this?

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 6:58:52 pm

[Steve Connor] "David, why do you have to keep lowering yourself to personal comments like this?"

Be specific Steve. Stop the BS generalizing. Is there even one word I wrote that is untrue?

Honestly Steve, you know, you needn't come to the defense of everyone on your side of these matters every time you see an opening, even when there's nothing of any substance to defend. That just dilutes your ongoing message.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Steve Connor
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:05:18 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Be specific Steve. Stop the BS generalizing. Is there even one word I wrote that is untrue?

Honestly Steve, you know, you needn't come to the defense of everyone on your side of these matters every time you see an opening, even when there's nothing of any substance to defend. That just dilutes your ongoing message.
"


David, I'm not the only person on here who doesn't like your regular habit of trying to demean other peoples opinions based on their professional position, if anything it dilutes your ongoing message more than mine.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:10:22 pm

[Steve Connor] "David, I'm not the only person on here who doesn't like your regular habit of trying to demean other peoples opinions based on their professional position"

Steve -

You might not be the only person, but then again you might. I didn't see where David was out of line, especially on this thread, where I get called a Luddite on a regular basis. It isn't demeaning to call someone a chemical engineer - at least not the last time I looked.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:15:13 pm

[Herb Sevush] "You might not be the only person, but then again you might. I didn't see where David was out of line, especially on this thread, where I get called a Luddite on a regular basis. It isn't demeaning to call someone a chemical engineer - at least not the last time I looked.
"


The comment was:

"But, since you're a chemical engineer by trade, it's understandable that you aren't completely clear about ongoings in this industry.

If it's any consolation to you, I'm not very up to date on the chemical industry. So there, we're more or less even, except for that fact that I don't post on forums catering to that industry, putting others down and trying to sound supremely knowledgeable."


-Trying to say that he is not qualified to state his opinions

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:19:25 pm

[Steve Connor] "Trying to say that he is not qualified to state his opinions"

Was David's comment untrue? If it was true, then his lack of experience in Pro workflows is pertinent in this thread. A persons background and experience is extremely relevant in evaluating their opinions.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:41:37 pm

[Steve Connor] "-Trying to say that he is not qualified to state his opinions"

Wrong!!! Gerald is not qualified to state facts that are inaccurate. Like everyone else, he is certainly entitled to his opinions. They are entirely different things. Do you see the difference?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:33:57 pm

[Steve Connor] "regular habit "???

Come on Steve... Specifics please. You're imagining things.

The reality is, my "regular habit" is helping people on other forums. I've posted on this forum a total of about twenty times in the last two weeks, and probably fewer than twenty times total in the month before that. Why don't you go back and take a peek and see if you can support your contention before you write trash talk and empty generalizations?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Steve Connor
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 7:43:11 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Come on Steve... Specifics please. You're imagining things.

The reality is, my "regular habit" is helping people on other forums. I've posted on this forum a total of about twenty times in the last two weeks, and probably fewer than twenty times total in the month before that. Why don't you go back and take a peek and see if you can support your contention before you write trash talk and empty generalizations?"


Sorry, I was out of line, many apologies David, I thought it seemed like a very patronising and unneccessary comment you made. I was obviously wrong

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 8:45:04 pm

[Steve Connor] "Sorry, I was out of line, many apologies David, I thought it seemed like a very patronising and unneccessary comment you made. I was obviously wrong"

I take you at your word and accept your apology Steve.

But please Steve, do go back and look at this thread starting at the point where Bill Davis challenges Herb. http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/19632. He challenges Herb very specifically as follows: "Raise something "video editing mission critical" that it actually "can't" do, not something it can do perfectly well, just not the way you want it to - and I'll be happy to listen."

I responded that without proper monitoring, there's no way know if there are fields-related issues, which makes passing QC a total gamble. It was a very precise response to a very precise question. He wanted mission critical, I gave it to him.

Now, just look at the responses, started by Gerald. Not one real response to the point I made, only a deflection to an expensive Resolve workaround, that is hardly a viable option for most.

Be honest Steve, can you see how frustrating that kind of "noise" is for me? I mean seriously, this site is supposed to be all about "more signal, less noise." Right?

Seriously, do you see my point?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 12:35:27 am

[Bill Davis] "So sorry, Herb. I'm not buying your line of reasoning at all."

It's not reasoning Bill, it's the English language. You said:

"It does titles, incorporates graphics, allows you to rough out - fine tune - finalize - and even export and delivery in ways that are acceptable to the entire planet of video delivery RIGHT THIS SECOND."

The "it" is FCPX. FCPX cannot deliver video that is acceptable to PBS without using additional programs to overcome it's limitations. PBS demands tape delivery, not files, that fall within extremely narrow and unarguable tolerances.

It's true that you can export files from FCPX then color correct and print using other tools. That does not mean that "it (FCPX) ... does export and delivery in ways that are acceptable to the entire planet of video delivery RIGHT THIS SECOND."

What you could honestly say is that "it" in conjunction with other third party programs can do it. That is not the same thing.

[Bill Davis] "A. Tens of thousands of videos are finished daily that were shot properly (which is dimply defined as "to the standards of their producers) and so need NO color correction step whatsoever. I'd argue that the VAST majority of videos fall into this category even if *I* might feel that they could benefit from a CC step."

True. But your previous statement was unequivocal - no tens of thousands - you said it would deliver to the "entire planet of video delivery." That was an unqualified statement that isn't true. Next time you might want to back off the "entire planet" phrase and use the words "many" or even "most."

[Bill Davis] "B. I have output Quicktime files from FCP-X that were subsequently sent to stations for broadcast.
It may require something other than a single button push which might be "inconvenient" to you. But that's not the same thing as your way overly broad "you cannot print to tape for broadcast delivery." That's another fine example of anit-X hyperbole. If one can "print" a QT file out of X (and anyone can) and put that on media - and distribute it. That's the essential function anyone needs and X does that just like any other NLE."


Try doing that with PBS and

First - your file will be rejected and then

Second - your producer will fire you.

They do not accept digital files as a deliverable for distribution, not by me, not by you, not by anyone. Not yet. Actually they still demand DVD screeners and accept SD material on BetaCam - ain't that a kick.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 9:03:38 pm

No doubt there are people that could use FCP X right now. If your delivery is the web, it's a no brainer good choice. If your delivery is anything else, it's questionable... can't view externally.

If you can't view externally for proper color correction, and you can't lay out to tape, and the xml isn't supported by all yet, and there's no way to output a cut list, EDL, or output separate tracks, (though I think that roles are the beginning of this ability), then it's not ready for a lot of people's needs. Most of the national networks still required color corrected broadcast safe tapes. You can't trust a computer display's rendition of the picture. Just doesn't match what that same file would look like on a TV set.

There's a lot to love with FCP X. I'm using it, and I really like it. I'm convinced it edits a lot faster than FCP 7 does, and it logs a TON easier. But I can only use it because I can use Phil Hodgett's X27 software to finish a project back in FCS 2009. As of now, I offline in X, online in 7/Color 1.5/Motion 4. Though I'm looking close at biting the bullet, and running with Smoke. (not for the feint of heart I should add, as it's pricey)

Don't get me wrong here, I love the start of X. It just needs some time to mature before I and a lot of other people who deliver for "other than the web" can use it exclusively.


Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Steve Connor
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 9:08:12 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "No doubt there are people that could use FCP X right now. If your delivery is the web, it's a no brainer good choice. If your delivery is anything else, it's questionable... can't view externally.

If you can't view externally for proper color correction, and you can't lay out to tape, and the xml isn't supported by all yet, and there's no way to output a cut list, EDL, or output separate tracks, (though I think that roles are the beginning of this ability), then it's not ready for a lot of people's needs. Most of the national networks still required color corrected broadcast safe tapes. You can't trust a computer display's rendition of the picture. Just doesn't match what that same file would look like on a TV set.

There's a lot to love with FCP X. I'm using it, and I really like it. I'm convinced it edits a lot faster than FCP 7 does, and it logs a TON easier. But I can only use it because I can use Phil Hodgett's X27 software to finish a project back in FCS 2009. As of now, I offline in X, online in 7/Color 1.5/Motion 4. Though I'm looking close at biting the bullet, and running with Smoke. (not for the feint of heart I should add, as it's pricey)"


True, but if you grade in DaVinci then you can at least have a monitor output at the grading stage, which is exactly when you need it. It's not a full solution, but it's a start.

How is X27 working out for you?

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 9:25:18 pm

X27 does exactly as it's advertised. Can't get filters to go across, but in an offline, that's really not a problem. Once in 7, you could export to whatever for the finish. Phillip and Greg will be developing it further no doubt.

In time FCP X's XML flavor will be read and interpreted by more softwares but right now, Philip's software is about all that's out there. I heard of Cat DV being used somewhat here, but I'm unclear on what it does exactly with X.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 10:41:21 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "... if they are serious about penetration into the business world (which they say they are)..."

Jerry,

But are they? Who said they are?

Franz.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 2:58:27 am

That that have a whole sales division for business for starters. Ever bought from them? They'll show up at your door!

The sales of iOS and OS X machines are increasing every quarter at a scary fast rate when the market for PC's is shrinking a LOT. Industry buys more computers than consumers do. I don't think this is all from consumer demand. I just don't see them abandoning a market that has suddenly warmed to Apple. Read their latest financials to see what makes Apple tick.

The business market dwarfs the pro video industry.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
http://store.creativecow.net/p/81/jerry_hofmanns_final_cut_system_setup

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO2 with MAX - Cinema Displays I have a 22" that I paid 4k for still working. G4 with Kona SD card, and SCSI card.


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James Mortner
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 2, 2011 at 6:34:56 pm

[Gerald Baria] "Aren't you guys tired of doubting them."

Is this a serious comment ?


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Neil Hurwitz
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 12:21:40 am

I am just curious here, but I do beleive that most "PRO"
users of Apple gear don't use MacPro's. I know a women
who does major print layouts, brochures,Advertisments and
send/give out material for the travel industry and
she uses a well kitted out Macbook Pro as do most of her
collegues. Some prefer the new 27" Imac for their "office" machine
She has no need for anymore firepower to do ALL
her print work, Period, End of Story.
Lets not get to stuck up here and think that the "Video Editor"
is the only pro user of Apple computers. As someone who once paid
15,000 for 6 gigs of Avid storage I can see the whole desktop thing
going away and into the cloud. The only thing stopping this is
the current bandwidth buildout, BUT THAT WILL CHANGE
It just might crap out all GPS systems as we know them
Now, Pay Attention to High Speed Wireless Internet
Hey, remember the shoe phone on get smart.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 12:29:11 am

[Neil Hurwitz] "Hey, remember the shoe phone on get smart."

Can't hear you Neil, the cone of silence is stuck again:)


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James Mortner
Re: Apple's Mac business plan
on Nov 3, 2011 at 9:15:03 am

[Neil Hurwitz] ""She has no need for anymore firepower to do ALL
her print work,"


Agreed, DTP has come a long way from letraset and such. Look inside large ad agencies, however, and you'll see a lot the high-res print and photoshop work is done on MacPros. They DO need that firepower to turn out billboards and such ( i know its not all the work but still )

They always need to get more done faster, blame the clients !


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